PDA

View Full Version : Plastic water containers may not be a good idea for storing water.


Veng68
09-01-2009, 04:38 AM
Anyone read this post on Bourneman's Forum over at Marine Depot Forums?

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic101230-9-1.aspx

Makes one think.

Cheers,
Vic

hillegom
09-01-2009, 05:03 AM
OMG
Thanks. I was going to buy one of those containers.
Now I will be looking elsewhere.

banditpowdercoat
09-01-2009, 05:59 AM
That's interesting

BUT, what intrigued me MORE is his saying of IO salt and Cyano?? Ive been batteling Cyano fro a year now, and use IO. Anyone else have thoughts on this???

hillegom
09-01-2009, 06:03 AM
I use IO and have a bit of cyano, Related?
don't know.

PuffLuv
09-01-2009, 06:37 AM
Definitely good to know! I also had no idea about the Instant Ocean either. I just bought a brand new pail, and now I'm thinking I should take it back for Reef Crystals... :doh:...however, I think I need more info first...

jsmth321
09-01-2009, 11:20 AM
Glad I use a glass aquarium to mix water in.

Leah
09-01-2009, 12:19 PM
I use IO in 4 seperate tanks 1 of which has had cyano but none of the others have so I
don't know. And I use garbage cans for all my water, this is why you have to love this hobby, Err! What to do?! LOL

mark
09-01-2009, 01:50 PM
Didn't read the whole article in the link but did they test the water for contaminants (the containers actually leaching)?

As for IO, I had cyano when I started, but I'm still using IO and haven't had any for years. The outbreak I attribute more to just being a SW newbie; using tap water, over feeding, circulation just a few MJ1200 in a 75g, than the salt mix.

rayjay
09-01-2009, 02:23 PM
I too use I.O. but I've had a running problem with cyano in just two of my eight salt water tanks. If it's I.O. based, why isn't the problem in all of the tanks?
In my 15+ yrs of the hobby, I've found a lot of blame misplaced on the forums by people assuming something has caused the problem without any scientific proof.
i.e. after doing "X", I had the problem of "Y", so "X" caused my "Y" problem.
I could do the same thing with my two cyano plagued tanks and say that sand beds are the cause because the two plagued tanks have sand beds and the others do not.
I'd be willing to bet that of all the I.O. used tanks out there, less than half have a cyano problem so the question is, why some and not others?
Next question, why do users of other salts have a certain percentage of their tanks plagued with cyano?
Possibly because I.O. is the most used salt, there are a greater number of I.O. used cyano tanks than other salt used cyano tanks, distorting the picture.
It's like when my customers ask me what van to purchase and when I replied, Caravan, they would say they have heard too many complaints about Caravans so they don't want them.
In fact, because there are so many Caravans on the road, like maybe as many Carvans as all the rest of the vans put together, then if 1% of them have problems, and you compare it to 1% of problem Windstars for instance, it would look like Windstar has a LOT fewer problems than a Caravan.

As far as the containers go, I don't use the Brute, but have 9-26g Rubbermaid Roughneck containers holding water and raising brine shrimp and rotifers and I use the water from them, plus the brine and rots grown in them, to raise H. Reidi seahorse fry that are smaller than an adult brine shrimp when they are born.
While they are definitely much larger than the more sensitive gametes, I have no concern about my use of the same water in my tanks, feeling that if the containers were a significant problem, I would also experience problems with the sensitive seahorse fry.

Ron99
09-01-2009, 04:00 PM
Did they wash the containers well before use? All plastics usually come from the factory with contaminants, mold release agents etc. You can get contamination from new powerheads or other plastic aquarium equipment if you don't wash it first. Just rinsing with RO water would not likely remove all the oily residues.

I would not think enough toxic chemicals would leach out of plastic in a short time such to cause the effects they saw unless it was from surface contaminants. Their reaction is alarmist and not based on any systematic determination of the cause of the problem. They should design a proper experiment to determine the source of any problem chemicals before making a generalized conclusion.

Gizmo
09-01-2009, 07:50 PM
I use that exact container to store RO/DI water in. No problems as of yet. Maybe they are made with Bisphenol A, which everyone has seen on the news as a very nasty chemical to be ingesting. The fact is no matter what you do to store water, something "could" leech its way into your water supply. Old Silicone, dust in the air, your sig other spraying febreeze in the other room... <insert rolling eyes here> but my point is, if its not one thing its another. I'm not going to stop using that container until I see scientific proof (other than dead sperm) that it had detrimental affects on my tank. BTW, they work great with the wheels. :)

SeaHorse_Fanatic
09-01-2009, 08:04 PM
Fortunately, I use food-grade plastic barrels for all my water changes & salt mixing. Got mine from a UBC lab that used it to transport distilled water or something like that. Whew.

Anthony

Tom R
09-01-2009, 09:00 PM
I only use FOOD GRADE products for water storage and sumps.

Tom R

Doug
09-01-2009, 11:12 PM
I too use I.O. but I've had a running problem with cyano in just two of my eight salt water tanks. If it's I.O. based, why isn't the problem in all of the tanks?
In my 15+ yrs of the hobby, I've found a lot of blame misplaced on the forums by people assuming something has caused the problem without any scientific proof.
i.e. after doing "X", I had the problem of "Y", so "X" caused my "Y" problem.
I could do the same thing with my two cyano plagued tanks and say that sand beds are the cause because the two plagued tanks have sand beds and the others do not.
I'd be willing to bet that of all the I.O. used tanks out there, less than half have a cyano problem so the question is, why some and not others?
Next question, why do users of other salts have a certain percentage of their tanks plagued with cyano?
Possibly because I.O. is the most used salt, there are a greater number of I.O. used cyano tanks than other salt used cyano tanks, distorting the picture.
It's like when my customers ask me what van to purchase and when I replied, Caravan, they would say they have heard too many complaints about Caravans so they don't want them.
In fact, because there are so many Caravans on the road, like maybe as many Carvans as all the rest of the vans put together, then if 1% of them have problems, and you compare it to 1% of problem Windstars for instance, it would look like Windstar has a LOT fewer problems than a Caravan.

As far as the containers go, I don't use the Brute, but have 9-26g Rubbermaid Roughneck containers holding water and raising brine shrimp and rotifers and I use the water from them, plus the brine and rots grown in them, to raise H. Reidi seahorse fry that are smaller than an adult brine shrimp when they are born.
While they are definitely much larger than the more sensitive gametes, I have no concern about my use of the same water in my tanks, feeling that if the containers were a significant problem, I would also experience problems with the sensitive seahorse fry.


Well said Ray. Never had any cyno in relation to my IO, which I have used since its existence. :lol: If anything, IMO, relates to cyno, its sandbed. But thats another story for another thread. :smile:

danny zubot
09-02-2009, 01:05 AM
Good info, thanks for posting. I'm always a bit nervous about plastic these days, and not just in relation to our hobby. Plastics aren't good for people either, that has been proven. Knowing that the water in his container reacted in that way makes it easy to identify potential issues when first trying out a new container. I myself use a 10 gallon clear plastic container for a fuge. I haven't, or didn't notice ill efects when I first put it into action. I'm lucky I guess.

As for the IO thing....

Definitely good to know! I also had no idea about the Instant Ocean either. I just bought a brand new pail, and now I'm thinking I should take it back for Reef Crystals... :doh:...however, I think I need more info first...

Isn't Reef Crystal made by IO? If they are, shouldn't the same suspect be placed on Reef Crystals? Not that I'm sure I believe what was said about IO to be true, just felt like added fuel to the fire.:biggrin:

PuffLuv
09-02-2009, 03:00 AM
Isn't Reef Crystal made by IO? If they are, shouldn't the same suspect be placed on Reef Crystals? Not that I'm sure I believe what was said about IO to be true, just felt like added fuel to the fire.:biggrin:

Good point! It looks like other people have had similar observations with IO & RC.
http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&p=24051

Maybe its because IO is less expensive salt than others, but I think its kinda funny how IO was used in experiments to culture cyanobacteria! (Second from bottom, right paragraph).

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=p2h2502p4r17315l&size=largest

However, after reading Bourneman's article, I think Reef Crystals may be at least a better choice than Instant Ocean.

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic101235-9-1.aspx#bm101263

fkshiu
09-02-2009, 05:56 AM
His single observation is hardly scientific proof that such containers are automatically evildoers. As Ron mentioned, did Borneman (or more likely one of his lab assistants) rinse out the Brute prior to use? As a former lab rat myself I can tell you that simple things like this can easily get missed when you're a unpaid schlub who just pulled an all night cram job for a midterm.

Further, using "food grade" containers is no guarantee either. The whole bisphenol A issue was such a big deal because it was being used on numerous "food grade" containers for years.

I'm now on the lookout for a 55 gallon Pyrex cylinder, BTW ;)

danny zubot
09-02-2009, 03:59 PM
I'm now on the lookout for a 55 gallon Pyrex cylinder, BTW ;)

That sounds just like my mother 'n' law.:lol:

mike31154
09-02-2009, 04:19 PM
I agree that a single article is hardly sufficient evidence to start getting overly concerned. I use a rectangular rubbermaid container for my water change container. Don't think it's considered food safe but that doesn't mean it's necessarily going to leach a deadly amount of toxins in the several days it takes me to mix up a batch & do the change.

I do however use glass wine making car boys for my top up DI water. Not due to any worries re plastic, but more because the form is convenient and they work well with my lo tech air pressure top up system. The drawback with them is weight, they're significantly heavier than a comparably sized plastic container. I have several food grade 55 gallon barrels, one of which I will eventually use to contain my DI water. Right now I'm using it to collect the RODI waste water for use in the garden etc. I'll continue to use the rectangular rubbermaid to mix up my water change batches though.

mseepman
09-02-2009, 06:12 PM
Mike, where did you get your 55 gallon food safe barrels from? I've been trying to source something like these in Vernon for a while without luck.

rayjay
09-02-2009, 07:46 PM
I bought a bunch of the 55g barrels that had olives shipped in.
I would think they are food safe. I've been using them for about 15 yrs now.
I start my water in these to age it and then transfer the water to the 26g containers after aging, to make the salt solutions and top up water from.

mike31154
09-02-2009, 08:34 PM
Mike, where did you get your 55 gallon food safe barrels from? I've been trying to source something like these in Vernon for a while without luck.

Hi Mark, seems to me I may have answered this before, but happy to oblige, maybe with more details this time.

Two blue barrels originally filled with glycerine (by product of manufacturing bio diesel) I purchased early this year at Swan Lake Nurseryland for $24 each. I haven't been there all summer and last time I was there, they had none left. The glycerine is used to make that skin friendly soap the ladies like. They were sold as rain barrels and that's what I'm using one of them for. The second one I've used to store RODI waste water for subsequent use in the garden or whatever. I still notice a bit of foam buildup when pumping water out of these barrels so I'll need to take a pressure washer or steam the inside to get all the glycerine residue out before contemplating their use for RODI water.

One whitish translucent and slightly heavier guage barrel I got from Mad Capper's Brewhouse on 29th Str around 43rd Ave. I'm a customer there and go about every month & a half to order up a batch of beer. Burt charged me $40 for the barrel I have. These have malt or adjunct in them and are definitely food safe but will also need to be steamed to get all the sticky, sugary goo out of them. When I was there about 3 weeks ago he still had a black one sitting there empty. I preferred the translucent one for the ability to see the liquid level in them. These have level marks molded into them at 5 gal intervals... which doesn't really help me at the moment since I decided to build a rack and have it laying on its side. The advantage to that is I'm able to use the two water tight openings for filling and draining. The caps are threaded and can be drilled out to fit adapters for a ball valve or whatever you decide you want on there.

I'm sure if you check the phone book, you'll find a number of other brew on premises businesses in Vernon. They will all have some of these barrels empty at one time or another. I've even been considering going to one of the big box supermarkets and asking about the 'olive' barrels. Might even get them for free there.

mseepman
09-02-2009, 09:07 PM
Thanks Mike, you had mentioned Swan Lake before but when I went there, they said they had none left and no ETA on ever getting more.

I will check out your other suggestions.