Fragalot Unresolved Issue still ongoing

[Nebthet]

Hi everyone,

I was not sure where to post this, but since I am from Ontario I decided to post this in the Ontario thread. If this is not the right place, others can move it.

I know most of you who also have issues with fragalot saw my other post on the Deletion of Posts thread under his forum, which when he was removed as a sponsor was also removed.

What I want to do is just give you all an update on the situation.
It has not improved and has not been resolved.

After Burc was removed as a sponsor on this site he sent me the following email.


On 15-Aug-09, at 12:01 AM, BURC UCAK wrote:

Sarah,
*
*First when you*tell the story on public forums please*tell the whole story.
*
*Did you follow up DOA policy? Which is clearly says on the website.*
*
*This is from DOA policy on website:
*
*In the case of DOA's (dead on arrivals), please contact us immediately.* We will request a digital photograph of the DOA from you.* Credit will only be issued once a photograph has been received less than 12 hours.
DOA credit does NOT cover shipping cost.*
*
*First.. When you receive DOA you need to take pictures and email them to me.Which is clearly says on the website.*Not 5 days later.
*
*Second.. DOA credits doesnt cover the shipping cost. Which is clearly says on the website. But you refused that too. But i have shipped that replacements anyway.
*
*Third.. You have filled a claim on paypal already and escalated to paypal. I cant do anything until paypal*finish the case.
*
*Forth.. I dont see any*bag without water in the pictures. And non of them DOA*while they were in the bag. I dont ship fresh cut frags but i sent you my grow out peices to you show they are not fresh cuts.
*
* You can file a claim trough Police but once they see policy on website they will see you didnt do your part either. Like i said before i cant do anything until paypal closes the case. We have to wait for paypal for now for further moves.
*
Thank you
Burc
*

Here is the response I sent him.


Subject: Re: Order issues. Sbaker Belleville. Paypal dispute# 750-985-761
Date: August 15, 2009 3:33:46 AM EST
To: bucak@sympatico.ca

BURC,

First thing, I let you know of the DOA issue immediately. That day, and as stated by FEDEX the shipment was damaged.

I also informed you I had issues with my computer on that day and I would get the pics out to you asap as I had to go out to my mothers to use her computer to send them to you. I cannot help it if my DELL Computer decides to stop working, so I had to find a resource for another computer.

Also, I have shared every single email back and forth between you and I and I have told them the whole story.

In addition to this, if you looked on the Paypal claim, at least on my end, it was noted on there as case closed because they will not look into something that is not what it is suppose to be.

I am not the only person having these issues with you. A bunch of people in Edmonton who just did a group order with you have received their items the same way I received mine. Rank water dead and dying frags.

There are also other people who are not happy that you have stopped emailing them to resolve this issue with them.

You find it convenient to take 4 or 5 days to get back in touch with someone who is having issues with you trying to resolve them, or not bother to tell someone you are not going to send some of the frags they ordered from you and then they have to hassle you for a refund of that item.

I was upfront with you from the beginning when I received the reorder. You could have at least given me a few considerations when it came to my computer breaking down and having to find another way to send them to you. The info from FedEx should have been a partial enough evidence to let you know and confirm there was a problem.

Also if you cannot see where those bags leaked in the pictures, where other people on the forums can and have commented on them, then there is a problem.

You are more than welcome to come down here, see that my dell computer does not work, see that my canon camera cannot upload the pictures onto my old crappy 500Mhz 10yr old Mac, and see for yourself the actual date on the pictures stored in the camera.

All I want is to get this finally resolved. Then we can be done with each other permanently.

Because you were not responding to me over the last week, I took it upon myself to let other forums for which you are a sponsor know what was happening between us and to see the emails back and forth between us.

If you are going to be a sponsor on a site, where someone is a member and is having issues and not work with them to resolve that issue so everyone involved is happy then other people have a right to know.

As I stated previously, I let you know of the issue in less than 12hrs of receiving the merch. As can be verified by these emails. I informed you of the issues with my computer as well and informed you I would send the pictures as quickly as I can. That for reputable businesses would be enough to work with and satisfy them, especially having the Fedex notation of damaged but delivered.

In addition to this, I also know Gord R, in Trenton had to call the police for Fraud against you for having a similar issue, and he is also the person who has advised me to do the same.

I have tried to resolve this amicably with you. All I am looking for is to get what I paid for in health. Not DOA. That is why I am willing to change to a selection of Zoas you have as a $10 special instead of your SPS because I no longer trust those. But if you want to resend the SPS again... and the ever missing sun corals from what I ordered that would be fine to.

Ms. Sarah Baker

*

Now Burc has informed other forums that he considers the issue resolved because Paypal won't do anything. He is telling them that Paypal refused my claim. Which is an untrue statement.

Paypal cannot do anything as it not within their power.
ot as described - Claim - #PP-750-985-761
Disputed Amount:
$124.10 CAD
Status
We're unable to decide this claim in your favor at this time. PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies to the shipment of goods but not to disputes about merchandise quality.

What happens next

We encourage you to work directly with your seller to resolve this matter.


By the sounds of it, I don't expect this to be resolved honestly by Burc and as such I am more than likely going to have to resolve this another way.

I just wanted to keep you all updated on the progress.

Thank you.

[Nebthet]

Update:

So after still not receiving any resolution from Burc. I have made a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

I don't know if they can do much to help, but at least I know they will investigate.

I would suggest for those who are still having issues which are not resolved to do the same.
You can get Burcs Telephone number and address by doing a search on Canada411.com.
http://www.canada411.ca/res/5197672728/B-S-Ucak/73517127.html

I have asked him to refund me $79.10 which is the cost of the 7 coral specials I purchased plus the applicable taxes.
I figures in his last email to me he whined about his policy not allowing for refund of the shipping fees that he should not have an issue refunding the amount of the corals paid plus the taxes for them.

I will keep you all updated on the outcome.

[ElGuappo]

if you will notice in your first post the end of burks reply he uses the word "either", which in my opion is as good as admiting he is guilty of not following thru with his own policy and taking acar of his "part".

just My Opinion.

Mike

Ps

I have ordered in the fisrt calgary ordr and had a fairly simular experience. i never posted in the rate frum as i just noticed it (the forum) a week ago. i ordered 4 zoa and a rainbow stylo. well i had 3 doas and the stylo was as close to doa as possible. the 2 zoa frags that were not doa i did not order. after my phone call i never heard back from him. however in a week i got a pm from the member here who recieved the replacemet delivery. he had shipped 3 zoas to me and again only 1 that i had ordered. since then i am down to 1 zoa frag but its still on the fence. however as of last month, 3 since the order the stylo is flourising.

This is the first response i datail i have given as i did want to give a chance to redeem himself.

i never followed up at that point because it was a 10 dollar sale and well i expected as much.

[Nebthet]

I agree with you. Not many people notice that part. I don't feel he has had any intention from the beginning to resolve this.

[mark]

I'd just give up on this (less stress)

[Nebthet]

Perhaps, but I am not one for giving up on something.

[kien]

I'd just give up on this (less stress)

+1 hehe. I am busy enough with normal day to day activities, chores and hobbies. Wish I had time to hunt him down for the frags he owes me but unfortunately I do not. I'm just happy to see that public awareness has exploded over the past few weeks, and see that he's been pulled from sponsorship. That speaks volumes and is a win for everyone I think.

[oilfieldsafety]

I also had little luck in dealing with Burc, bunch of Doa's the first time and half of the ones that made it were not what I ordered. Burc did follow up with a replacement order all of which survived but none of which were frags that I ordered. Most of the people that have been involved on any of the threads have made similar comments " what can you expect for $10 " . I think that this is a valid statement that we all need to learn from. These were not frags from a fellow Canreefer but frags from a buisness. I think that we all carry some guilt because deep down we all had an idea going in that $10 ea. was to good to be true.

Just my 2 cents.

Shane

[kien]

Most of the people that have been involved on any of the threads have made similar comments " what can you expect for $10 " . I think that this is a valid statement that we all need to learn from.

Personally, I would expect to receive the item that I paid for, no matter what its cost. That's like walking into a dollar store, pointing to the shelf and asking for a $1 vase for your flowers. The clerk says okay, I'll bring it to the till. At the till he hands you a bag, you hand him a dollar. You get home and find a cup in your bag instead of a vase. What do you do? Throw your flowers into the cup, shrug it off and just tell yourself, "it was only a $1, what should I expect..". If it were me I would have expected the vase that I paid for.. but maybe that's just crazy talk! :crazy:

[Nebthet]

Ok so I wanted to give you guys and update as to what is happening. I have now contacted the Better Business Bureau regarding Burc and this has been his response.

Ms./Mrs. Fiona Dunbar,
I am writing this email about complaint made by Sarah Baker about fragalot.ca. Case # 1197621

We have a DOA policy in our website here is the link for it http://www.fragalot.ca/faq.html

As you can see there it says clearly how DOA credit works. It is not only our online store policy like this. This policy is same as any other online live stock dealers policy. Before i start to explain my side of the story i would kindly ask you and Sarah Baker to provide the email she claims i sent her nasty email. Which i have never ever sent any nasty email to her or any other customer. If you like to see all emails sent trough me i can provide them.

First order sent to Sarah Baker and she claimed they were all DOA and i asked her to provide pictures of the DOA. Pictures has been sent after 3 days of shipment arrival. And later on she claimed 2 corals werent doa. But i have tried my best to make her happy i sent another shipment without anycharge to her. Which i shouldnt suppose to do that because pictures has been received 3 days later of arrival date. Second She declined to pay shipping charge for replacements. Which it is clearly said in DOA policy. And marked RED.

Once She received the replacement shipment she claimed box was damaged and all corals were DOA. We asked her to send pictures. Pictures has been sent after 5 days. Box wasnt damaged. Maybe little water leaked from couple bags but as you can see in the pictures she can provide. Bottom of the box was wet but no damage to the box. After i saw the pictures while the corals in their bag all corals were alive and i dont see any DOA in the pictures. Couple bags were leaked but corals were still in the water.

And then 2 pictures with DOA corals once their in her aquarium. They werent alive but only 4 corals in pictures. Not 6. And pictures has been sent after 5 days. DOA credits only covers if buyer receives the corals dead while they are in the bag. That is why we have 12 hours limit for the proof of the DOA.

Sarah Baker made a claim on Paypal and after paypal investigation paypal pointed her she didnt follow the policy of the website and refused her claim. After this she sent me an email with threat to post bad review about fragalot on public forums to force me to sent another shipment. She tried to post this review few public forums and most of the admins on the boards refused post her review because Admins said she just declines to proceed as policy requires.

And she is still declining to proceed to policy. I do not like to have unhappy customer but i did more than what i could do. I even sent the replacement shipment without charging her any shipment cost. Which i shouldnt have. Now she wants me to ship different type of corals and still ignores the policy.

I would do my best to make customers happy as long as they do follow the DOA policy. The reason for this policy we are dealing with live animals. I cant be sure about the condition of customers aquarium, that is why we require pictures of the DOA once they have been received and while they are in the bag.

Again I did NOT send her any nasty email. I would ask her to show that email.

Kindly,
Burc Ucak

[Nebthet]

This is my response:

________________________________________
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
The information provided by the seller is a somewhat incorrect.

The paypal claim was made for the first shipment as he was not responding to my complaint re DOA.
Paypal could not resolve my issue because it is not in their policy to make a resolution on an issue like this.
"Not as described - Claim - #PP-750-985-761
Disputed Amount:
$124.10 CAD
Status
We're unable to decide this claim in your favor at this time. PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies to the shipment of goods but not to disputes about merchandise quality.

What happens next

We encourage you to work directly with your seller to resolve this matter. "

Additionally I sent Burc more than one set of pics showing all dead corals.
His refusal to even communicate regarding the complaint lead to the escalation.

The seller didn't ask me to pay another shipping charge to send the replacement. He didn't make a request for it by email or paypal.
His own policy doesn't state buyers must pay another shipping charge to receive DOA Replacements.

In addition, his own policy states he would request pictures, he just needs to be notified within 12hrs of any DOA issues. I did this.
I informed Burc immediately of the issue with the corals. I took the images necessary but was having computer issues as I stated. I was also waiting for him to request the pictures.

This is his DOA policy.
http://www.fragalot.ca/faq.html
In the case of DOA's (dead on arrivals), please contact us immediately. We will request a digital photograph of the DOA from you. Credit will only be issued once a photograph has been received less than 12 hours. If the entire order is a DOA we will replace the entire shipment. You must be present to accept and sign for your order on the first attempt of delivery from FedEx. DOA credit does NOT cover shipping cost.

I followed Burc's policy as best I could. Providing him emails right away noting there were issues. I waited for him to request the images, which he never did (the first time, it took the paypal claim for him to respond back to me).

I am requesting a refund of $79.10 for the amount of the corals I purchased which were DOA. This is minus the shipping fee, which lead to the order coming to $124.10.

If you wish to see the full emails posted under quotes in addition to the images I sent Burc, you can go to the following link:
http://******.com (You guys know the emails from here)

It can be determined by the emails, and the lack thereof, where I have had to constantly go after him for a response, that Burc has been changing stories and using different excuses to get out of refunding the price I paid for his products.

- Burc has refused to communicate back to me more than once during my business transaction with him.
- He has continually changed his reasons for not refunding nor resolving this issue with me.
- I informed him of the damage to the corals immediately.
- Under his own policy, he DID NOT request images from me within 12hrs.

Burc did not do anything to resolve this with me.
________________________________________

[rayjay]

In the case of DOA's (dead on arrivals), please contact us immediately. We will request a digital photograph of the DOA from you. Credit will only be issued once a photograph has been received less than 12 hours. If the entire order is a DOA we will replace the entire shipment. You must be present to accept and sign for your order on the first attempt of delivery from FedEx. DOA credit does NOT cover shipping cost.

As I read it, you know as soon as you read this policy that you have to provide the photo within the 12 hours.

[Pescador]

Or you could read it as the photograph must be received within 12 hours of it being requested?

[muck]

Or a photograph taken within 12 hours of shipment arrival...

[globaldesigns]

As a business owner, I cannot get defensive nor fight with a customer. It doesn't matter if the customer is right or wrong, but what does matter is that at the end of the process the customer leaves feeling warm and fuzzy...

Many times I wanted to tell a customer where to go, but have found that biting my tongue and doing whatever I can will always work out for both sides. The odd occasion, I myself can't satisfy the customer, but that is rare.

The old saying, happy customers tell a few, mad ones tell everyone... so you choose what customers you want to help grow your business.

Fragalot, having this negative publicity, is it worth it? For me it wouldn't be... doing more harm than good... I haven't bought from you, but can say I won't now.

Hopefully you both can work things out.

[lastlight]

bump.

Any updates on this?

[Nebthet]

Burc has refused to resolve the issue with me, despite going through the complaint system even with the Better Business Bureau who can only act as a mediator, but cannot make him do anything to resolve it.

He states that he has done everything he can to resolve things with me, while continually changing his story.

I am in the process of getting court papers together now.

[mechano]

Wow , interesting yet disturbing information about fragalot.ca. Sounds like he has stopped caring about his business

[ElGuappo]

Any updates????

[MartyB]

Here's a thread about a recent Fragalot group order in the Ottawa area if anyone is interested.

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=39635.msg236917;topicseen#new

[kien]

Nice..

You know, for a while there I was thinking that fragalot has gotten so much bad press and had hit rock bottom after being pulled from canreef that he had nowhere else to go but up. I was certain he'd learn his lesson and pull himself out of the ashes and become one of the best online vendors we'll ever see. Looks like I was wrong about him, again. I guess he won't be truly done until he's been pulled from every forum online.

[Nebthet]

Well after speaking with my council, we decided it would not be cost effective to bother the legal course, however I have heard a few things about Burc's business practices lately that have me curious to know if any one has been receiving any products from him within the last month.

I am not allowed to say what it was I heard, as I made a promise, but... when I heard it all I had to say is KARMA.

This guy really needs to change his business practices a lot. Many people are unhappy with him. Eventually that will bite you in the arse.

Since my very bad experience with him, I have purchased frags from other members on here of sps (6 for $100) and they all survived and are growing like crazy in my system. Of 3 $100+ purchases I made from Burc, only 3 frags ever survived. That is damn expensive survival rate when you think about it!!

People need to know and be aware of the business practices of the places they purchase from. My mistake was believing his own hype from his website and making the payments through paypal and not directly from my credit card.

My advise from other people is:
- Buy Local
- Look at the frags you are ACTUALLY purchasing.
- If you buy from another hobbyist, ask them to keep the frags in their system for a few weeks to a month prior to pick up to allow them to heal, as this will give them a better chance of surviving in your system.
-Ask for pictures of the actual frags.
- Pick up the purchase yourself. Check your local transportation authorities to see if they have a same day return trip special. If so, this usually is cheaper than the actual cost of shipping through UPS or FEDEX. When I got my frags in Toronto, this was the case. If you drive, don't be afraid to drive 3 hours to get your items. It is worth it in the long run to ensure the health of the corals yourself.

[Skimmerking]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm buy local didnt you buy local thou ONTARIO ya i know that Ontario is a big place. i would just drive there.

[Nebthet]

Well, when you don't own a vehicle, local is within a 45km distance to you...
Burc is about 3 hours away from me one way.
He doesn't want me knocking on his door!!!

[Skimmerking]

ahuge difference when hhhhhhhhhhhhhh that will u dont have a car

[Nebthet]

Yes, yes it is a huge difference when u don't have a car. One of these days I will then I will be hitting all the good Toronto shops I can't get to by using transit and won't have to hurry or plan trips a month or more in advance.

[shrimpchips]

Ah, sucks to hear that your issue hadn't been resolved.

When I ordered frags from Burc, pretty much all of them died/were dead/had red bugs/AEFW.

When I wnet to pick them up - a not so local 2 hour trip for me, the bus out to Guelph (a drive would still have been 1.5 hours) - and I chose out frags and brought them home, they all survived. I ordered a frag or three later and had him meet me somewhere - all those are dead too :p

Good to hear that the frags are doing well for you :)

[Myka]

I went in on a group order with Fragalot recently (maybe 3 weeks ago?). There were several of us, and I'm not sure how everyone else made out, but 3 1/2 out of 5 survived for me. The way I see it is that I paid $50 for 3 good frags, and one that is still struggling. Really...that's not a bad price. There were a few frags on his $10 list that I figured were worth the "risk" of ordering. I kept my "risk" to $50, and I wasn't disappointed...maybe because my expectations were pretty much nil. :lol:

[Nebthet]

Yeah I am really happy with the frags I got from you.. The MontiCap is really growing like crazy now. I will have to take more pics. The green bottlebrush is glowing green all the time now and the digis have almost half an inch of new growth.

I will always buy coral frags from you!!

Ah, sucks to hear that your issue hadn't been resolved.

When I ordered frags from Burc, pretty much all of them died/were dead/had red bugs/AEFW.

When I wnet to pick them up - a not so local 2 hour trip for me, the bus out to Guelph (a drive would still have been 1.5 hours) - and I chose out frags and brought them home, they all survived. I ordered a frag or three later and had him meet me somewhere - all those are dead too :p

Good to hear that the frags are doing well for you :)

[JPotter]

What court papers are you processing besides small claims?

[Nebthet]

It would have to be small claims as the amount is under $10,000.

You get 5 or more people together where the amounts purchased are over a $1000 together then it makes it worth the court costs and time to go through the whole process.

[Tetrarch]

So what's the verdict here? I noticed the fragalot site seems to be down.

[Myka]

I heard he is out of country "until further notice".

[lockrookie]

yes he is out of country visiting family in his home town. from what i hear he can be gone for a month or more at a time and its been close to that since ive last contacted him. he left june 20th

[gobytron]

I am just shocked that people still buy stuff from frag a lot.

This guy has had the worst, most inconsistent service since he started frag a lot.

You don't have to do much searching anywhere on the 'net to find bad reviews and buyers telling others to beware...

Hate to see yet another reefer get screwed, but this should not come as a surprise to anyone dealing with Frag A Lot...

[vaporize]

So what's the verdict here? I noticed the fragalot site seems to be down.

Burc renewed his domain a few days ago & also is paying sponsorship fees (elsewhere), so he's active. He does not seem to respond to inquiries though.

[gobytron]

why would he?
people keep giving him their money regardless of customer satisfaction.

[Tetrarch]

Hmmm, interesting. A friend and I were considering gettng a couple frags from that site, though I think l'll hold off considering what I've learned.

[Ograx]

I made the mistake of making a 250$ order from him without reading reviews and the only thing that lived was a fire and ice zoa frag which I didn't order.

[Skimmerking]

Wow that is so gross I really believe that some one should me him into a Frag.......

[Zoaelite]

Wow that is so gross I really believe that some one should me him into a Frag.......

Your closer than most of us :lol:.

[Skimmerking]

Oh trust me I would in a heat beat pay him a visit if he ripped me off.

[Skimmerking]

As I read it, you know as soon as you read this policy that you have to provide the photo within the 12 hours.
however if he doesnt read the email until after the 12 hour period then.

[jorjef]

He is the finest example around of "you get what you pay for". well actually you don't most of the time but you get the picture. I have been in a couple of group buys and nothing but frustration... The only thing that lived were his sun corals.

[por2stylz]

get off your butts next time and drive to guelph and pick it up yourself especailly if your in toronto its 10 bucks worth of gas to get your stuff why be so slothish and get stuff shiped i worked at parcel shiping place when i was 17 and yes we throw stuff regardless in the truck like football tosses

[Bloodasp]

I think everybody already knows how our parcels are dealt with in shipping companies, what you said doesn't surprise me to say the least, which is why both seller and buyer try to get it from point a to point b at the soonest possible time at the best packaging they are able to provide and handled by the shipping companies at the shortest amount of time possible. But irregardless of that he has his own issues from the reviews i've seen not just in here.

[Nebthet]

get off your butts next time and drive to guelph and pick it up yourself especailly if your in toronto its 10 bucks worth of gas to get your stuff why be so slothish and get stuff shiped i worked at parcel shiping place when i was 17 and yes we throw stuff regardless in the truck like football tosses

Well that is kind of hard for people who "DON'T OWN A CAR OR HAVE A DRIVER'S LICENCE" and with no inter city buses in their area. I used to be able to get to Toronto on a same day greyhound ticket for $40, but Greyhound decided to take their stop out of my city, and taking the Via rail is out of the question. Over $100 return trip.