I am so frustrated!!

[seanoman]

Over the last few months, we have been battling something with our tank. It is a 220 gallon sps tank. It has now been up for about 15 Months. It seemed to be right around the 1 year mark when everything started going wrong. We had great growth and good colouring on everything. Then all of a sudden it has gone down hill from there. We have lost several colonies and continue to battle to hold on to some right now. Some corals shows no signs what so ever, and then others do. They start to lose flesh, in no particular spot, then eventually completely die. I have checked all my parameters, and they all seem ok to me, except for my alk which might be a little low.

Calcium - 460 (maybe a little high)
Alk - 6 - 6.5 DkH
MG - 1150
PO4 - less than .01
Salinity - 1.026
Nitrate - undetectable
Nitrite - undetectable
Ammonia - undectable

These were all done with Elos test kits aswell.

Every time I do a water change, I do notice an improvement, but within 3-4 days after, it seems to decline. Now I have tried to look up the affects of low DkH, but haven't been able to find much. Is it possible that low Dkh will have this affect on corals? I am trying to slowly raise my Alk with dosing kalkwasser. Any help or advise on this would be greatly appreciated. I am so lost and losing a lot of interest in the hobby. I am not about to give up though, because I know when we figure this out, it will be much better afterwards.

Thanks in advance.

[Oceanic]

Over the last few months, we have been battling something with our tank. It is a 220 gallon sps tank. It has now been up for about 15 Months. It seemed to be right around the 1 year mark when everything started going wrong. We had great growth and good colouring on everything. Then all of a sudden it has gone down hill from there. We have lost several colonies and continue to battle to hold on to some right now. Some corals shows no signs what so ever, and then others do. They start to lose flesh, in no particular spot, then eventually completely die. I have checked all my parameters, and they all seem ok to me, except for my alk which might be a little low.

Calcium - 460 (maybe a little high)
Alk - 6 - 6.5 DkH
MG - 1150
PO4 - less than .01
Salinity - 1.026
Nitrate - undetectable
Nitrite - undetectable
Ammonia - undectable

These were all done with Elos test kits aswell.

Every time I do a water change, I do notice an improvement, but within 3-4 days after, it seems to decline. Now I have tried to look up the affects of low DkH, but haven't been able to find much. Is it possible that low Dkh will have this affect on corals? I am trying to slowly raise my Alk with dosing kalkwasser. Any help or advise on this would be greatly appreciated. I am so lost and losing a lot of interest in the hobby. I am not about to give up though, because I know when we figure this out, it will be much better afterwards.

Thanks in advance.



Couple of questions......

- Are you using Zeovit or any other Ultra Low nutrient systems ie Vodka, prodibio, Fauna Marin?

- How much carbon and what kind are you using?

- Is your make up water ZERO TDS

- Do you run a CA reactor?

- Have you checked your Potassium levels yet?

- What is your basline PH? Does it drop too low at night?

- Refugium?

- what are your daily temp swings? Whats your baseline temp?

- What Salt are you using?

- Does your fish room have good ventilation to outside air?

Until I get some answers I would start by saying that your MG is too low, I run mine at about 1400+. Your ALK is low especially in contrast to your low MG levels and High CA level. Your Specific gravity is good and not to worry about.

[seanoman]

Couple of questions......

- Are you using Zeovit or any other Ultra Low nutrient systems ie Vodka, prodibio, Fauna Marin?

- How much carbon and what kind are you using?

- Is your make up water ZERO TDS

- Do you run a CA reactor?

- Have you checked your Potassium levels yet?

- What is your basline PH? Does it drop too low at night?

- Refugium?

- what are your daily temp swings? Whats your baseline temp?

- What Salt are you using?

- Does your fish room have good ventilation to outside air?

Until I get some answers I would start by saying that your MG is too low, I run mine at about 1400+. Your ALK is low especially in contrast to your low MG levels and High CA level. Your Specific gravity is good and not to worry about.

Hey Ian thanks for the reply to answer your questions,

- no
- I run a phosban reactor full of carbon (marineland is the brand)
- RO/DI water is reading 0 TDS
- yes i have a calcium reactor
- haven't checked potassium
- ph seems to be right in line when i test, haven't done day and night comparison though
- no refugium
- temp at night gets to 78 and then about 81 throughout the day
- seachem salt
- yes i have two fans that run for ventilation in my fish room. One just for the lighting canopy and the other for the rooms humidity

[Bryan]

I think your alk is too low. I would shoot for around 2.8-3.0 and keep it stable. I have found my caps do not like alk above 3.2 meq/l and my SPS do not like alk below 2.5 meq/l.

[Aquattro]

I ran my current tank with an alk below 2 meq/l for 6 months and everything was fine (well, no growth, but no death) so I wouldn't blame that. I would get it up over 3 though..
Ca is a bit high, but that wouldn't do this either. Have you tried dipping any near dead colonies, see if any flatworms come off?

[wickedfrags]

Sorry, but IMO - try not to get overwhelmed (specifically by the post above). SPS = stability promotes success.

Assuming you have not dosed any supplements or other things which could have drastically altered your levels (alk, ca, mg), I would work at dialing in that calcium reactor to maintain a DKH of 3.5 (+/- 0.5), once you have it set (based on your current SPS load), memorize how you did it and leave it alone for a month or so. Check DKH every other day until stable. Chances are your tank improves after a water change because of the increase in DKH, again, JMO.

I have never checked Potassium, have never experienced Ph issues, refugium issues, salt issues or ventilation issues. But that is just my system.

[Oceanic]

Sorry, but IMO - try not to get overwhelmed (specifically by the post above). SPS = stability promotes success.

Assuming you have not dosed any supplements or other things which could have drastically altered your levels (alk, ca, mg), I would work at dialing in that calcium reactor to maintain a DKH of 3.5 (+/- 0.5), once you have it set (based on your current SPS load), memorize how you did it and leave it alone for a month or so. Check DKH every other day until stable. Chances are your tank improves after a water change because of the increase in DKH, again, JMO.

I have never checked Potassium, have never experienced Ph issues, refugium issues, salt issues or ventilation issues. But that is just my system.

The questions asked are not meant to be overwhelming but instead are informative for those that are wanting to help find the solution. A fancy acronym will do nothing for you, stability is elementary and I think we can assume you already know that.

Things like the salt brand are important, Seachem is notorious for having a high borate content that tends to causes test kits to read on average 1.25 DKH higher than actuality! (especially when using Salifert test kits) The is especially true if water changes are often.

Because you are using Seachem salt you should be aiming for an Alk reading of 9.5 - 10 DKH thus resulting in a actual DKH closer to NSW or a little higher. Your tests that show about 6.5 may only be 5.25 DKH in actuallity!! (Not good!)

Knowing what you are dosing is also important, using ZEOvit or any other ULNS will result in "stripped" water over time, in other words, your system does not contain enough nutrients that the Corals need to thrive. Also when using these systems Potassium also gets low resulting in the need to supplement.

Ventilation is also important, a stuffy room with the windows closed can and will cause PH issues due the Co2 that builds up in the air.

Keep searching, an answer with stability as the advice will do you nothing, there is more to your problems that what has been assumed.

:wink:

[marie]

It could also be something as simple as using air fresheners (bad idea, especially if you use one that kills bacteria as well... like febreeze) in the same room as the tank.

[wickedfrags]

Really - never heard that before. How does this occur?

It could also be something as simple as using air fresheners (bad idea, especially if you use one that kills bacteria as well... like febreeze) in the same room as the tank.

[wickedfrags]

Your right...

The questions asked are not meant to be overwhelming but instead are informative for those that are wanting to help find the solution. A fancy acronym will do nothing for you, stability is elementary and I think we can assume you already know that.

Things like the salt brand are important, Seachem is notorious for having a high borate content that tends to causes test kits to read on average 1.25 DKH higher than actuality! (especially when using Salifert test kits) The is especially true if water changes are often.

Because you are using Seachem salt you should be aiming for an Alk reading of 9.5 - 10 DKH thus resulting in a actual DKH closer to NSW or a little higher. Your tests that show about 6.5 may only be 5.25 DKH in actuallity!! (Not good!)

Knowing what you are dosing is also important, using ZEOvit or any other ULNS will result in "stripped" water over time, in other words, your system does not contain enough nutrients that the Corals need to thrive. Also when using these systems Potassium also gets low resulting in the need to supplement.

Ventilation is also important, a stuffy room with the windows closed can and will cause PH issues due the Co2 that builds up in the air.

Keep searching, an answer with stability as the advice will do you nothing, there is more to your problems that what has been assumed.

:wink:

[PoonTang]

You said you tank was ok for the first year then started to go south? Improves after a water change for a short while? Mabey look at the possibility that something has built up in your tank to toxic levels. Are you skimming enough, do you have enough LR, running phosban, what shape is your sand bed, running a Fuge? All valid questions that should be looked at also. Look also for things like stray voltage, some foreign metal object in the tank, something you started dosing. I find it odd that parameters that are slightly off would cause so much trouble. Especially if your levels were the same during the first year.

[seanoman]

Hey thanks everybody for your help so far.

You said you tank was ok for the first year then started to go south? Improves after a water change for a short while? Mabey look at the possibility that something has built up in your tank to toxic levels. Are you skimming enough, do you have enough LR, running phosban, what shape is your sand bed, running a Fuge? All valid questions that should be looked at also. Look also for things like stray voltage, some foreign metal object in the tank, something you started dosing. I find it odd that parameters that are slightly off would cause so much trouble. Especially if your levels were the same during the first year.

As far as skimming, we have a BK300 external, which i believe should be more than enough. About 200 lbs of LR. ROWAPhos running in the other phosban reactor. We have a bare bottom tank and no fuge. I have also looked for stray voltage and other things in the tank. So far have seen nothing.

Marie, I have also heard of that happening, but I know that is not the case for us, because all the equipment is in its own fish room and we don't ever use any of that stuff in there.

Dave and Ian, I am dialing back my Calcium reactor as we speak, and I will be slowly dripping in some kalkwasser as well to try and slowly bring up the DKH.

Again, thanks so much for everyones quick posts it is greatly appreciated!!

[seanoman]

Oh, I forgot to mention, that none of this has affected any of the fish in the tank. They are all doing better than ever. They are all in great health.

[Sebae again]

Once you get your Mg up it will be easier to raise the alk and maintain it.

[Oceanic]

once you get your mg up it will be easier to raise the alk and maintain it.

+1

[Oceanic]

Your right...

:peace:

[Oceanic]

Hey thanks everybody for your help so far.



As far as skimming, we have a BK300 external, which i believe should be more than enough. About 200 lbs of LR. ROWAPhos running in the other phosban reactor. We have a bare bottom tank and no fuge. I have also looked for stray voltage and other things in the tank. So far have seen nothing.

Marie, I have also heard of that happening, but I know that is not the case for us, because all the equipment is in its own fish room and we don't ever use any of that stuff in there.

Dave and Ian, I am dialing back my Calcium reactor as we speak, and I will be slowly dripping in some kalkwasser as well to try and slowly bring up the DKH.

Again, thanks so much for everyones quick posts it is greatly appreciated!!

Slow is good when dealing with ALK! :mrgreen:

[seanoman]

Any suggestions on what to use to increase the MG. I know Tailor Aquatics has a liquid form of MG that you can dose. Anybody have experience with that?

[Haloreef]

Sean I use Zeo Mag in my calcium reactor aprox 10% of my reactor medium volume. It seems to work for me.
It was a tip I got from Superfudge when I first started keeping SPS.

[Oceanic]

Any suggestions on what to use to increase the MG. I know Tailor Aquatics has a liquid form of MG that you can dose. Anybody have experience with that?

There are many ways of doing this including the Zeomag, I used to run Zeo mag in the reactor but now I just pour in Kent Tech-M into my auto top off resevoir. I go through about a 64oz bottle in about 6-8 weeks. I keep my magnesium very high; infact, I used to run the magnesium at or around 2100 ppm in order to battle a some bryopsis on some new rock (only use Tech-M for this) worked like a charm! I have seen no ill effects of running high Magnesium and I actully believe it promotes faster Coral growth and quicker healing of frags etc.

Tech-M love this stuff
Epson Salts (walmart) Cheap but Sulfate may get to high ??
Bulk reef supply Great if you go through lots.

[Oceanic]

Any updates on your situation? Have you raised up your ALK to 9-9.5? Have you added MG?

[seanoman]

I have been raising both my alk and mg. I have been doing both through my top off for the past few days. I checked my alk last night and it was close to 8.5 and mg was around 1200. So slowly but surely, they are coming up. The rate of decline has seemed to slow down aswell. I will be doing another water change today and think I will actually be changing salts aswell, as I need to buy more anyways. I was thinking of using the H2O salt, does anybody have good experience with it? I have only seen good reviews for it, and it seems to have higher mg and alk then what seachem does.

[Oceanic]

I have been raising both my alk and mg. I have been doing both through my top off for the past few days. I checked my alk last night and it was close to 8.5 and mg was around 1200. So slowly but surely, they are coming up. The rate of decline has seemed to slow down aswell. I will be doing another water change today and think I will actually be changing salts aswell, as I need to buy more anyways. I was thinking of using the H2O salt, does anybody have good experience with it? I have only seen good reviews for it, and it seems to have higher mg and alk then what seachem does.


Good to know! I am happy to hear that things are looking better. As far as salt is concerned I would just go with Instant Ocean, the salt is well priced and has been proven for decades. I have never used another salt and couldn't be happier.

Just try to get away from the Seachem salt, the boron in the salt just makes things confusing to test and balance.

[Oceanic]

I need an update on this!!!! Please tell me that raising your ALK and changing your salt has helped!

:mrgreen:

[megs_clark]

Hi, i thought i would mention since im in Chilliwack also, When i use instant ocean salt with my water my alk is 12 before adding my calcium and mg, so mabe if you switch to instand ocean it will raise you alk for you?