Electrical Help - Stove tripping breaker *CONCLUSION*

[Snaz]

Hey what better place to look for an electrician's advice than a forum about fish. :)

About 2 months ago my coil range stove would trip the electrical panel breaker if the rear large coil was turned on. We removed that coil and were cooking on three elements only but starting this week if any element is turned on it will trip the breaker, once the whole panel tripped and the house was dark. The glass fuses on the stove itself have never blown.

So we are ordering a new stove.. But I'm wondering now if the breaker or panel is suspect instead? Is there a way a novice to confirm the health of a breaker? Do they go bad?

Thanks in advance for any help given.
Keith.

[Starry]

my guess is the stove had a short. if the new one still trips the breaker, replace the breaker/ breakers

[Red Coral Aquariums]

, replace the breaker/ breakers

+1

[subman]

Hey what better place to look for an electrician's advice than a forum about fish. :)

About 2 months ago my coil range stove would trip the electrical panel breaker if the rear large coil was turned on. We removed that coil and were cooking on three elements only but starting this week if any element is turned on it will trip the breaker, once the whole panel tripped and the house was dark. The glass fuses on the stove itself have never blown.

So we are ordering a new stove.. But I'm wondering now if the breaker or panel is suspect instead? Is there a way a novice to confirm the health of a breaker? Do they go bad?

Thanks in advance for any help given.
Keith.

Breakers definitely do go bad but more often than not they don't trip. Coil burners have a tendency to short over time. I would assume that the breaker is fine but the new stove will be the proof>:biggrin:

[banditpowdercoat]

SOunds like the breaker is getting weak. They do not last forever. If the fuses never blew, but the breaker did. WHat's the breaker size, and whats the fuse sizes? The fuse should be smaller than the breaker, especially for just the elements. So the fuse should go first.

[mike31154]

Yeah, the stove fuses not burning out and the main breaker (whole house) tripping is cause for further investigation. Have you checked the receptacle/plug for the stove itself? Could be a loose connection there causing excess current to be seen by the breaker, but not the stove. How old is your home and/or the wiring? The BC electrical code calls for the stove to be on its own circuit with no other loads, which is probably the case with your set up since it should be on at least a 40 amp breaker with two phases (3 wire cable plus ground of size 8 wire) to provide 220 VAC to the oven & probably the burners as well. A book called "Electrical Code Simplified Residential" (B.C. Book 1) published by PS Knight should be available at any home improvement center for around $12. Not a troubleshooting book per se, but plenty of good info in there on your home's electrical system. Great bang for the buck.

I'd check for loose connections before going out to buy new breakers.

[Snaz]

I took the breaker out yesterday to take to the local RONA but they were closed and it wont happen tonight either. Monday

The breaker was kind of strange, it actually had three circuits on one "block".

------------------------
- 15 amp breaker
- 40 amp breaker ! The two 40 amps were joined by a common bar.
- 40 amp breaker !
- 15 amp breaker
------------------------

I have seen two 40 amps joined by common bar before, I think that is standard but I have never seen the 40 amp breakers bracketed by two 15 amp breakers. The whole thing was huge and occupies 4 slots on the panel. My tank is on one of the common 15 amp breakers but it has never tripped.

The townhouse is about 9 years old, we have had it for almost 2 years now.

[mike31154]

Yep, the two 40s will be for the stove, two hot leads (black & red) with a single neutral (white) and of course ground (green or bare). Not sure why they build these monsters with 15s at either end, my 30 amp breaker for the Electric Dryer is the same idea. The reason the two 40s are tied together is that if there is a fault in either of the hot lines to the stove, both breakers will be tripped disabling all circuits to the stove. This is for safety reasons obviously. The two 15s are I guess just nice and convenient, but have nothing to do with the stove circuit.

With all 3 wire circuits, 2 hots and a neutral, the neutral needs to carry the return current for both hot wires, so you might want to double check that all connections are tight, particularly the neutral. What size is your service (main breaker) 100 amps or higher?

[Snaz]

I replaced the breakers today and reseated the stove plug into the wall and still the 40 amp breakers trip as soon as they are reset or the master(100 amps) trips. Unless there is a wiring fault in the walls somewhere I have to suspect the range unit itself, a new one arrives Friday. Thanks for the advice.
Keith.

[hillegom]

Yeah, the stove fuses not burning out and the main breaker (whole house) tripping is cause for further investigation. Have you checked the receptacle/plug for the stove itself? Could be a loose connection there causing excess current to be seen by the breaker, but not the stove. How old is your home and/or the wiring? The BC electrical code calls for the stove to be on its own circuit with no other loads, which is probably the case with your set up since it should be on at least a 40 amp breaker with two phases (3 wire cable plus ground of size 8 wire) to provide 220 VAC to the oven & probably the burners as well. A book called "Electrical Code Simplified Residential" (B.C. Book 1) published by PS Knight should be available at any home improvement center for around $12. Not a troubleshooting book per se, but plenty of good info in there on your home's electrical system. Great bang for the buck.

I'd check for loose connections before going out to buy new breakers.
Keith, I would try that.

[banditpowdercoat]

Unplug the stove!!! then try turning the breakers on. That will tell you if its in the wall or the stove wiring. DOn't want to fool around if there's a wiring problem. Fires happen..

[mike31154]

I replaced the breakers today and reseated the stove plug into the wall and still the 40 amp breakers trip as soon as they are reset or the master(100 amps) trips. Unless there is a wiring fault in the walls somewhere I have to suspect the range unit itself, a new one arrives Friday. Thanks for the advice.
Keith.

I have a gas range so do not have the large four prong receptacle you will for an electric range. I do however have an electric dryer and I suspect the wall receptacle for that is much the same. If so, make sure the breaker for the stove is OFF and open up the wall receptacle for the stove if you can. I strongly suspect the wiring is held on by screw terminals inside there. Check those to ensure they're tight, nothing to lose here as long as you make sure the power is off. There's not much that can go wrong with wiring inside the wall unless it's been overheated or it's been damaged through some careless renovation. The connection points at the breaker and the plug are the weak spots in any wiring circuit. Good luck, I hope the new range solves the problem, but if it's just a loose connection, that's a large investment, although sounds like a new range is a good idea anyhow if two coils have gone.

[Snaz]

Tonight I flipped the breakers back on with the stove unplugged and they did not trip so the last piece before the range arrives is to inspect that wall socket as described. Thanks all.

[banditpowdercoat]

Problem is in the stove :D

[Snaz]

Last week I took apart the face plate off the electrical wall socket and sure enough one pole was blackened and sooty. I removed that wire and 5 of the 6 copper inner wires fell out leaving a single 1mm strand of copper. Either the original electrician cut through the wires when he stripped the insulation off or when he screwed down the wire the nut cut through.

Ok so I replaced the wall socket and re-strip and reseated the wires but as soon as the range was plugged in the breaker trips! So either they bad wiring caused the range to be defective or it was a coincidence.

New range arrived today and it works fine. Self clean too. :wink: Thank you all for the great advice and help.

[hillegom]

All right!!
The missus will be happy with a self clean. But what a way to get a new stove.
Glad it has finally worked out for you

[mike31154]

So the wire that was blackened looked ok after stripping it back a few inches? Sounds like there might have definitely been some overheated copper there. Hopefully it only affected the immediate area around the wall socket. Heavy guage wire like that can be a bugger to work with. I'm actually surprised it's stranded wire, I would have thought it would be solid conductor. Which one was it, a hot or the neutral?

Scary stuff when you find somthing like that, it could easily have been an electrical fire. Good thing it turned out ok and the circuit breakers did their job.

[Snaz]

So the wire that was blackened looked ok after stripping it back a few inches? Sounds like there might have definitely been some overheated copper there. Hopefully it only affected the immediate area around the wall socket. Heavy guage wire like that can be a bugger to work with. I'm actually surprised it's stranded wire, I would have thought it would be solid conductor. Which one was it, a hot or the neutral?

Scary stuff when you find somthing like that, it could easily have been an electrical fire. Good thing it turned out ok and the circuit breakers did their job.

The wire was only blackened a bit where it contacted the screw down connector(pole?) but the connector itself and the surrounding area was sooty. It was the red wire.

[JTaylor420]

well if your main breaker is tripping that is generally caused by a line to line short circuit, if one line is shorted or overloaded then it would simply cause the one breaker to trip (40A). The reason for breakers tripping is sensing the temperature of the wire via a bi metalic strip inside that will open the circuit should either condition be met. Anyhow the reason that any conductor 8 or larger is stranded is because electricity travels mainly around the surface of the conductor (skin effect) and the more individual wires the more actual surface area a conductor has (all cables have the same awg size above 8 just more strands are added for larger size cables.) Also another wonderful reason they strand wire is because it actually makes it substantially easier to bend ( just imagine bending a piece of solid copper the size of a pencil) anyhow not to get off topic but if your new stove still has problems tripping the breaker try loosening the clamps that actually hold the conductor in the box, as well as replace the actual stove receptacle and breaker. And if at all possible get a clamp on ammeter and open your panel with all coils on and see what each phase is actually drawing. Hope this helps.