Return pump priming needed?

[Eb0la11]

Hey guys, ok got my leaks all worked out for the most part and the drain works etc... So naturally the next step was to fire up the return pump.

I have a submersible return pump that fits in a chamber in my sump. Its completely submerged. Its an ecoplus 1584 pump. Brand new. It works, I tested it outside just submerged in a bucket and it shot water 3-4 feet high.

So, my problem is that when I have it hooked up to my four 1/2" return lines through a 3/4" manifold it wont push water through.

I have a check valve installed about 4 inches up the line from the pump that is not backwards and for some reason my pump isnt feeding water through my returns. Ive closed off 3 of the 4 to see if it could pump through just one and no luck there either.

Anyone know what might be my problem? Ive got the return lines full of water to "prime" them and this has caused the check valve to close the other direction, but the pump should be powerful to push it open again and begin flow, no? Im confused.

[banditpowdercoat]

If the check valve is closed, the pump may have air in it? can you crack the line before the check valve to fill pump?

[sphelps]

If the check valve is closed, the pump may have air in it? can you crack the line before the check valve to fill pump?
+1 the check valve is likely holding the water up over the pump and creating an air lock, you need to either open the check valve to remove the air or remove all the water above the check valve.

[intarsiabox]

If the check valve is closed when there is water in the return lines and the pump is off then it is doing its job. If it was open it would syphon water out of your tank and into your sump. However this doesn't mean that it is not faulty. It could be binding internally or spring pressure to great for your pump (assuming it is spring return and not a flapper valve). Can you put a spacer piece in place of your check valve to make sure that the CV is the problem? Is there a fitting between the pump and check valve that you could loosen to release any airlock?

[Eb0la11]

Yeah Ive got water basically from the returns to the check valve which is about 4-6 inches above the return pump. So there could be a bubble of air between the pump and the check valve.

I am starting to wonder though if my pump is powerful enough to blow open the check valve.

Ive taken it off and hooked it up to a hose and water blows through it when on a hose.

My pump is a 1584 GPH submersible Eco Plus pump.

Are these check valves rated at a certain gph in order to be opened?

[intarsiabox]

They are supposed to open very freely as there intent is not to stop water from flowing out only from returning to the pump. Your pump should have absolutley no problem opening a check valve if it is working properly.

[Pazil]

I am sure this is not the case BUT... are you sure that the back check valve is not installed up side down?

[Eb0la11]

So do you think its the 6" pocket of air between the check valve and the pump is the problem? I have no real way that I can think of to get water into that 6" of pipe. Ideas?

[Eb0la11]

I am sure this is not the case BUT... are you sure that the back check valve is not installed up side down?

No its the correct way. It has an arrow saying which way flow is and that arrow is pointed the same direction the pump pumps the water. Ive also tested the check valve to see if its seized and all that and the check valve seems like it works for the most part. I still am skeptical about it though since it is an old part that I think was in a system prior to mine.

Ive tested the pump to without any restrictions and it pumped fine submerged in a bucket of water outside.

[intarsiabox]

It "might" be the problem. I have never had a submersable airlock on me personally as usually the head pressure in your sump is enough to fill your pump up. You may have to invest in a couple of unions and a spacer to find out though.

[Eb0la11]

ya Im gonna go to the store tomorrow and get just a straight pipe to see if the pump can do it when the check valve isnt there creating that air lock. I'll probably pick up a new check valve just for peace of mind too. I'll update here or in my build thread.

[golf nut]

How are you plumbing the return pump that demands the need for a check valve?

[Eb0la11]

The biggest reason I want the check valve is because I have a 30 gallon sump that has its compartments set up to use up 25 of the 30G, roughly, when running normally. So if ever the power went off the return lines and the overflow box would drain into the sump. I have estimated this to be around 20-25G and so that'd mean 15-20G on my floor if the power did go out.

The return is a 3/4" manifold that splits into four 1/2" returns.

[mark]

I have estimated this to be around 20-25G and so that'd mean 15-20G on my floor if the power did go out.


as check valves aren't 100% (they'll get debris or buildup on the seats that will allow them to leak) that could be quite the mess.

Anyway you could raise you return?

[hillegom]

as check valves aren't 100% (they'll get debris or buildup on the seats that will allow them to leak) that could be quite the mess.

Anyway you could raise you return?

+1
I would not rely on a check valve. Remember Murphys law

[Eb0la11]

My return holes are drilled at the highest point possible. Ive said it my build thread that 15-20G on my floor wouldnt really be the end of the world. Im in a basement thats unfinished so it wouldnt really do much damage. I already had some from my FW tank leak when one of my o-rings wasnt tight on my pumps when I moved to this new place. No biggie, but itd be nice to have a flood proof tank.

I got a backup plan anyways if this check valve doesnt work by the end of tomorrow for an emergency empty reservoir that I could plumb off my sump through the, right now, plugged holes drilled in the back that are a bit above my chambers.

[ALBERTA REEF]

I took a look at your thread build. I think your pump is too small for your plumming. My thinking your flow was bare mine from the outlet. By adding the check valve choked it some more. Try turning off three of your return feeds and see what happens.There is a head chart on Reef Central.

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

[Eb0la11]

Yeah it was a spring loaded check valve that required too much force than my pump could supply to open... I've replaced it with a swing type check valve that needs a whole lot less force to swing open.

I tried the closing 3 valves to my returns and it still didnt work, but thats all beside the point now since my system works well, at least the return aspect so far.

Now I am fine tuning my drain. I have to re-plumb my 'T' off to my refugium and thats where Im at now. I got the parts but gotta cut into my pipe a bit to fix it.

My next problem after that is my needle wheel pump for some reason is not starting when I plug it in. Ive tested it before and its worked everytime so this is bizarre why it wont work now. Its been a bit finicky at worst but hasnt ever plain not started so Im not sure whats wrong.

Suggestions?

[ALBERTA REEF]

Is the needle wheel pump is used for the return, usual they are used for skimmers. I still think your pump is still to small of a head height. It runs but does not have enough to get it there. A vane tip pump is better for returns. Hear is a though I have a mag 24 (2400gph) we can plum in to see. :smile:

[kien]

Glad you figured it all out! By the way, why don't you keep all these questions in the build thread? Hehe. I'm not saying you can't make a separate thread but to me it seems like it would be great to see it all unfold, the good the bad and the ugly all in one place for easy future reference for yourself and others. Just my two cents :-)

[Eb0la11]

Ya, sometimes I just want broader opinions and I know not everyone is reading my build thread. So more generic questions I sometimes post here. It all depends. I usually at least update in the build thread problems and solutions but sometimes the process is thought out in these separate threads.

The needle wheel is in my skimmer, yes. I have a separate pump that pumps water from my sump to my skimmer, through the needle wheel and then drains back into my sump. Its an out of sump model.

[banditpowdercoat]

I took a look at your thread build. I think your pump is too small for your plumming. My thinking your flow was bare mine from the outlet. By adding the check valve choked it some more. Try turning off three of your return feeds and see what happens.There is a head chart on Reef Central.

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

Adding outlets does nothing to increase head pressure. Neither does pipe size. A 6" diam pipe will have the same head pressure as a 1" pipe of same height.

[whatcaneyedo]

Adding outlets does nothing to increase head pressure. Neither does pipe size. A 6" diam pipe will have the same head pressure as a 1" pipe of same height.

Thats quite the statement and contradicts everything I've seen and read. Do you have any sources to back it up?

[banditpowdercoat]

Ya, Any plumbing manual. Head pressure is only the verticle height. It does not matter the diameter of the pipe. Now, when talking Flow restriction, that goes by pipe diameter, But if you have a 1" pump outlet, Doesnt matter if its 1" all the way up, or if it expands to a 6" pipe, the head pressure at the pump will be the same. GPM flow may be affected by the smaller pipe and friction loss, but not head pressure.


Think of it this way, Head pressure is in PSI, right? So, take a 1"x1" column of water 6' high. It has X head pressure. Now take a 6" pipe, Head pressure is still measured in PSI. Yes, the pipe is larger, but you only take a 1"x1" section of the pipe for figuring head pressure.


Or, take my fish tank, 150g, 5'x2'x2' Its 2' high, does not matter that the tank is 5' long, or 50' long, the pressure(PSI) at the bottom of the tank is the same, Its dependant on height, not LxW


Hope that helps

[whatcaneyedo]

So your argument is simply that we were using the wrong terms, calling everything head pressure where as theres two different concepts: head pressure and flow restriction. Like the way everyone calls all sea slugs nudibranches... Never mind then. :wink:

I blame Delbeek and Sprung for mixing me up. "Head pressure refers not only to the vertical distance a pump must push the water, but also any resistance to flow created by pipes, fittings, and valves." The Reef Aquarium Vol 3

[mark]

What we commonly referred to Head maybe more accurately is Dynamic Head, being the Static Head (the height part) plus friction (from couplings valves etc), and is for example what the RC Head Loss calculator (http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php), calculates.

[banditpowdercoat]

But in the instance in this post, where you said to close off the other outlets, above the check valve, that would not have made a difference in the head pressure keeping the check valve closed.