First Reef

[oolichan]

Allright, so I'm going jump into a reef in the next few weeks or so. I'm not new to fishkeeping - I've been obsessed with fish since I was a kid and currently have a 300G FW cichla tank and a 55G malawi tank going at the house.

I know that SW and reef is a whole new ballgame but I'm up for the task. I drool looking at some of the tanksvon this site, reef tanks are where it's at.

With that in mind I need some advice. I know that fishkeeping is a slippery slope, hence the 300 in my living room! I want to make sure that my fist reef will keep me interested for at least a year or so.

I'm considering having a 24x24x17 rimless cube built. It ends up being about 45G. It will have a centre overflow plumbed and I'll build a stand and sump for it. Lighting will be as needed and likely bought used through this site.

My question is will this be a tank tank that will give me enough coral/fish options to stay interested for a while? I'd hate to drop $1500 to get this sucker running and realize I should have gone bigger!

[Pazil]

IMO.... No it is not large enough..... I am trying to think how I would aquascape a smaller cube with a center overflow....might be tough to do and keep room for fish and coral growth.... What ever you think you will be happy with (size wise) double it... :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: And then you can do it again in a year to two.....:mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Navarchus]

After numerous number of upgrading I can give a word of advice:
Get the biggest thank you can that will fit your place and your budget!

Another thing to be considered by you is that SW most demanding ingredient is patience! It will take 6 -12 months for your reef to be established and giving you breathtaking results.

[xtreme]

I turned my 125g cichlid tank into a reef a year and half ago. I just finished upgrading it to a 280g a couple weeks ago as it was already getting full. Also with a center overflow aquascaping would be tough, and corals do grow faster than you might expect. I love tangs and some of the bigger fish and with a 45g you would be limited to the type and number of fish suitable for that tank. As you mentioned it would suck to drop a bunch of money then be wanting to upgrade in the near future. This hobby is VERY addicting so be careful.:biggrin:

[banditpowdercoat]

BIGGER is allways better. Especially when you allready have a 300gFW

I started with a 45g, now have a 150 AND the 45 LOL

[intarsiabox]

Bigger is more stable, not always better. You can always try a nano reef for a year and all corals, fish, rock, etc can be transfered to a larger tank if you decide to stick to reef keeping without spending a fortune on equipment just to have it wasted. Check out nano-reef.com and you will see small tanks that look just as good or better than many large systems or search this forum as well. Either way you decide it is a rewarding hobby. What I like most about it over FW is that everytime I look in my tank I see something new and everything is alive, even the sand and rock!

[365seasons]

If you've already got a 300G FW, I'd definitely aim bigger.


Go big or go home...
Wait...go as big as you can FIT in your home.


:biggrin:

[bignose]

Obviously you know to research. Make and plan with your budget and stick with it. If this is going to be your first SW tank learn from it to see if it is something you like, if not get rid of it. Don't go balls to the walls. :lol:

[naesco]

I am with everyone else. Get the biggest one you can

[triggereef]

Agreed,, I went the with a 50 gallon at first and it was so
much harder so i scraped the idea and looked for a bigger
tank.. luckly a good friend was selling a 230.. its awesome
to have because since its quite big there is less chance of
it getting any sorts of deseases,, WAY better and more fun
then the 50 hah:lol:

so in the end bigger is better!

[BlueAbyss]

I'll be one of the few that disagree with the 'bigger is better' statement. I went with a 10 gallon because I am on a budget and wanted to 'test the water' so to speak (I know that's a terrible pun for those of us that do a lot of parameter testing :lol:)... I have plans for a 29 gallon but felt a need to go smaller with the first reef.

I'm interested in animals that would be lost in a large reef... Pom Pom Crabs, Sexy Shrimp, Pederson's Cleaner Shrimp etc... But the draw for a larger tank is more (and larger / fancier) fish, and I love the colorful fish. My 10 gallon will support 1 - 2 small fish... not great for a fish fancier. Since I'm more interested in invertebrates and corals and that sort of stuff, that's great... I can see the small stuff up close.

Every facet of this hobby is pretty great... I've seen impressive tanks as small as a few gallons! Smaller tanks take less things to fill them, but have less room to grow, plain and simple. Smaller tanks are more challenging to keep stable also... something I learned very well in the past 2 months since I started my tank.

Whatever you decide to do, Canreef is an excellent resource. Keep us posted, we all love pics! :biggrin:

[scherzo]

I've only had a SW tank for a short time. (relatively speaking). I've been doing the FW thing for a long while and have gotten quite "advanced".. I guess.(still learning though) as I've done the High Tech Planted thing.

Reefing seems to be similar to the high tech planted thing in terms of keeping things in close check and very well balanced.

I have a 29 gallon tank to start. I added a 20 gallon sump to try and keep things stable. Everything is running great! Parameters are pretty much level.. nitrates are 0.... phosphates are 0...etc..etc.

I'm going slow though. Stocking carefully and slowly. Feeding carefully... I'm having no problems at this point (knock on wood).

Nano seems to be working for me..

having said that.. I'm thinking of converting my 90 gallon into a reef tank.. I'm already cooking some LR just in case I decide to change that over.. the 29 has taught me a lot!

[oolichan]

Thanks for all the advice. It sounds like if I have the tank built I should go with a corner overflow.

To be honest the 45G was double what I was going to start with. I have a new 20G with a 15G for a sump that I was going to set up but felt that would be too small.

I'm actually suprised to hear that 45G is considered a nano!

The space I have available is in my kitchen and the footprint of the tank can't be any longer that 36". The space is deep though, 24" and ideally would have a height of 18" or less. That means max gallons would be a little less than 70 and to get to 70 I would need a custom build. Or I could get a 3' 50G and have it drilled.

Maybe I'll keep my eyes open for someone selling a custom tank close to those specs and if nothing comes up have the 45G or 65G tank built.

[intarsiabox]

I am in the process of setting up a new tank in my dining room and have similar dimension problems. I found a 30x20x20 with 2 overflows in the rear on this site that will suit my space requirements. I don't know if yours is going beside a kitchen counter (24" deep) but if it is you might not want your overflow in the middle of the tank. If you don't have access to all 4 sides then most of the back half of your tank will be more or less wasted space as you can't see it. I'm running a 20g reef tank right now and there is plenty of action and you can put tons of frags in there, but as they grow you'll probably have to start making frags yourself. And trust me, you can sink a lot of cash into even a small 20g tank!

[oolichan]

Yup, I would like to build it into the kitchen, hence the 24" depth.

Definately prepared for the investment. The good news is there seems to be a lot of people getting out of the hobby and some pretty good deals on equipmet. I plan to build slowly as stuff becomes avaialble used.

[Myka]

Imo, it depends whether you're more into fish or more into corals. If you're really into corals like I am, then working with a smaller space isn't an issue. You can always sell a few of your less liked corals to make room for new ones. That I was did with my 33g. If you're more into fish I would suggest you get a 4 or 6' tank instead of going with a cube since even though cubes may have a significant number of gallons, it doesn't have the same amount or length of swimming space that fish like Tangs need.

As far as your particular tank dimensions go, I prefer taller tanks as to shorter tanks as I find them easier to aquascape. I find shallow tanks have little upper swimming room for the fish once the rock is in there and you add some corals, not to mention when the corals really start to grow! I agree that you should go as big as your budget and space allow, but to stick to efficiency as well. By that I mean, decide on lighting as well, and you can plan the tank as a whole instead of just around one aspect.

For a cube using one light, the maximum efficient size would be 30x30x30, but that's quite a big tank. This is efficient because a single halide with a "special" reflector designed to spread the light (like a Lumenbright, Lumenmax, or Lumenarc) will spread the light to a 30x30" patch. It is also easy to light 30" depth with a halide light.

My personal preference for a cube would be 24x24x26", but I'm not a huge fan of cubes just because the aquascape is so limited. I like to use halides supplemented with T5s, so the 24" will accomodate that.

I would reccommend against the centre overflow since it really cuts out the space for aquascaping, and really distract from the look. I find they look more inconspicuous when they are in a corner, especially when the overflow is black and you paint the background black.

Really it comes down to figuring out what you like, and what you want out of it.

[oolichan]

Great post Myka.

I am mainly interested in corals, I have some pretty amazing FW fish and the real draw to SW for me is reef.

I'll think I'll stick to 24" long and deep because it fits my space perfectly and will look custom but I'll go deeper, over 20". Lights for a 24" length seem to be fairly reasonable as well and I have a buddy that sells T5 fixtures.

Definately won't go centre overflow, that's come through loud and clear.

[Navarchus]

well myka.....

http://www.reefbuilders.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/neonano1.jpg

No problem there.....:wink:

http://www.simonreef.it/public//foto2009/foto%2005.jpg

No problem there either :mrgreen:

[oolichan]

That first tank is unreal. What size is it?

[Pazil]

With the aquascaping that I have done in my cube.... my 4 tangs never have to turn around like they do in a narrow longer tank..... They can just swim around the towers and continue along thier way.... I really think that the longer tank is better thing is not always true.

[Coleus]

This hobby is so addictive is all I can say. Especially coral for me
________
HERBAL AIRE 2.1 (http://vaporizers.net)

[Myka]

Navarchus, with those photos are you trying to prove that shallow tanks can have good aquascaping? If so, personally I don't like the style of either of those tanks. Sure the corals are great, but I just don't like the look of them. I think they are boring (aside from the corals obviously). I just prefer taller tanks, with a nice big viewing glass on the front. :D It's all personal taste though as I said above:

Really it comes down to figuring out what you like, and what you want out of it.

That first one is obviously an advertisement photo for Reef Builders, you can tell it was just setup since there is no discoloration in the sand at all (even along the glass), and no coralline growing anywhere. It's too clean to be "real". Lots of nice corals though. :)

This is a cube I quite like, but I can't remember the dimensions. I find the style of this one much more interesting than the ones Navarchus posted. The tank is "crazy4acros" on Reef Central, he has a hournal thread on it if you want to search for it. It is fairly large though.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/Myka82/crazy4acros.jpg

[Navarchus]

just Teasing you :)

[kien]

In my opinion, this is one of the questions where, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't! Bigger is better, but not always. For example, check out the Buy/Sell section. Tonnes of people dumping their systems! They are either upgrading to bigger ones because they started out too small, or just outgrew what they initially thought was "big enough". Or, they are getting out entirely because it is either too much work, they're bored, or whatever. My advice would be to get whatever your time and money can afford today since you are uncertain what your future reefkeeping endevour is going to look like.

[oolichan]

Well 'm glad I posted and I'm coming away with a few things:

1) No centre oveflow
2) Go deeper with the tank to gain extra volume and make 'scaping easier
3) I have no idea what a good reef tank looks like lol

[fkshiu]

Well 'm glad I posted and I'm coming away with a few things:

1) No centre oveflow
2) Go deeper with the tank to gain extra volume and make 'scaping easier
3) I have no idea what a good reef tank looks like lol

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and everything has pros and cons.

1. Center overflows minimize varying overflow issues that you have with corner overflows. For example, I have corner overflow and my sump levels rise and fall depending on whether my Wavebox and powerheads or on because they cause swells which are the greatest at each end of the tank. One of the best overflow setups for a cube is a center middle overflow (meaning right at the very center of the tank - 4-sided and bottom drilled) since this allows for 360 degree viewing.

2. Going deeper presents lighting penetration issues. Many people like putting clams on the sandbed, for example. You can forget it with all but the most powerful lights in a deep tank. This, in turns, results in having to use more powerful lights which causes heat issues and higher electrical usage.

It also presents aquascaping problems because it's a lot trickier and more work holding taller rock structures together. It's also much more difficult to reach things on the bottom especially if you're shorter. I find having a wider (i.e. front to back) tank helps more with aquascaping as you get a better sense of depth and perspective rather than a wall of rocks effect you can have with a tall, narrow tank.

Most fish prefer LENGTH to swim as opposed to DEPTH. That's why some people are constantly harping on having tangs only in 6-foot long tanks.

3. You decide what a good reef tank looks like - it is, after all, your reef tank. I personally love the look of long, shallow tanks.

[Myka]

2) Go deeper with the tank to gain extra volume and make 'scaping easier
3) I have no idea what a good reef tank looks like lol

A good reef tank looks however you want it! :)

If you go too tall vs the width then it will become trickier to aquascape. Since you're going for a smallish cube, I would suggest trying to find Tonga branching live rock, and use some zip ties, two-part reef epoxy, and possibly some acrylic rods (drilled in using a masonry bit) to create somewhat of a tree-like effect like the pic of the tank that I posted above. If you can't find branching rock, you can just use a bunch of smaller pieces pinked to eachother. Of course, this is just my own taste. Some people really like a rock wall look.

However, there is method to my madness!! :eek: If you create rockwork that has little rock touching the sand, and no pieces of rock touching any of the side panes of glass you create a VERY neasy tank to clean, and to catch fish in. The rock wall style...good luck catching a fish out of there, and just how the heck are you going to get detritus out from behind? With a tree style you can use powerheads to keep detritus from settling. This lowers your bioload, which helps to keep nitrate and phosphates in check. :D

Here are some different cube styles...try to see past the corals, and look at the rock. :)


The rock wall:
http://z.about.com/d/saltaquarium/1/0/_/T/1/mmcghee24greef_600.JPG



The tree (as posted above):
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/Myka82/crazy4acros.jpg



The pyramid (with a cave):
http://i26.tinypic.com/2i25ad.jpg