Help Getting Started

[serratus]

Just getting started for the first time for a reef aquarium.

So far I just have a 50gal tank and TEK 36" 6-bulb T5HO lights.
I was looking on ebay for filters/heaters etc and found these. Are these any good?

Fluval 405
Penn Plax Cascade Submersible Aquarium Heater 300 watt
WORK-HORSE Aquarium Powerhead 250 GPH

What else would I be needing? It seems the references on these forums highly recommend a protein skimmer and claim that a good skimmer it is more important than a good filter. Local marine aquarium specialists seems to say that protein skimmer is not really needed.

Planning to make my aquarium look like this after a year or two with similar inhabitants:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYb_NZEm7g&feature=PlayList&p=784D8244A6D40DE1&index=2&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

BTW, I don't have enough room to do a sump setup.

[xtreme]

Unless you plan on cleaning your canister filter on a regular basis (like at least weekly) it will probably end up doing more harm than good. Canister filters usually aren't recommended for a reef tank. As for powerheads, you might want to look into a couple koralias or at least something a little more powerful than 250gph. You would need like 5 -10 of those wokrhorses to create enough flow. Aim for at least 20x turnover in your display tank.

[serratus]

Unless you plan on cleaning your canister filter on a regular basis (like at least weekly) it will probably end up doing more harm than good. Canister filters usually aren't recommended for a reef tank. As for powerheads, you might want to look into a couple koralias or at least something a little more powerful than 250gph. You would need like 5 -10 of those wokrhorses to create enough flow. Aim for at least 20x turnover in your display tank.

Once a week??? Will it get clogged that fast? Don't canister filters provide more surface area for nitrifying bacteria to live on?

[xtreme]

Its not that it will get clogged that fast, just that it will become a nitrate factory if not cleaned regularly. Live rock is what takes care of your biological filtration.

[xtreme]

Check out this thread to get an idea of what people are using for flow and how much is required.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=48372&highlight=flow

[serratus]

It seems to be the trend on here to get away from mechanical filtration and just use live rocks and have tons of flow so that there is enough flow through all the cracks and holes of the live rock for good filtration. However, aren't there tons of people that have done it successfully with canister filters? I wish I had the room to put in a sump system so I can pack it with more live rock and sand for filtration but I just don't have the space for that and I was thinking the cannister filter would be my best option.

You mentioned it would be a nitrate factory. Isn't that what you want? You want it to convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrate right?

I apologize for being so new at this and asking some stupid questions. I've only done weeks of reading but no hands on experience so please point out any mistakes in thinking I have. I'm sure I have plenty.

[banditpowdercoat]

It's not the canister filter thats the problem, it's the foam/sponges. I have run, and know of others who run canisters on a reef tank. Take out the foam, use the canister for carbon, maybe even Phosphate remover, and put some rock rubble in the canister. Works good then. I know others who don't even use a canister. Leah, on here is one example. Just Hang on back skimmer and powerheads. her tanks are gourgous. Nice and clean, and colorful. It's the foam, or BioBalls that do the harm. In freshwater, the surface area is good but not so in a Reef.

The thing about Reefing, is you can make it as simple or as elaborate(and expensive) as you want.

[Slick Fork]

I'll also say Nix the cannister filter idea. I would run a HOB protein skimmer and a HOB filter (like this one but whatever size you need http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/pf-ac300/Hagen+Aquaclear+70+Hang-On+Power+Filter.html) full of LR rubble, you could also put carbon and phosphate remover in it as well.

Nitrates are fine in FW but in SW they can negatively affect your corals. FW fish and plants just don't care about nitrates, corals do.

As for flow, the best way to get it really does depend on your budget. If price were not an issue I would go with a vortech MP20. If like most of us you're on a budget, a pair of Koralia 4's would be a good place to start.

As for the heater, I would personally go with 2 smaller ones. That way if one sticks on, it's not enough to cook the tank by itself.

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions!

[chandigz]

Questions are good. The only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask. Most of the people here "have been there, done that" and are giving advice from actual experience and know what works and what doesn't. What sort of worked 5-10 years ago is outdated and better ways have been created. Some things are the same with fresh and salt, some are not. You have to try to forget what you do with f/w and open your eyes to a new way of thinking. I have to agree with everyone else, forget the canister filter and use a skimmer. The only people who sometimes use only a canister filter instead of a skimmer are people with fish only tanks. The live rock will take care of your biological filtration. It also acts a source of denitrification(breakdown of nitrate into nitrogen gas by anerobic bacteria) . The protein skimmer is used to remove organic wastes from the water before it has a chance to turn into nitrate. One of Your goals in keeping a reef tank is to have a non existant nitrate level. Nitrate will cause major algae problems and interfear with coral growth and survival. Best peice of advise I can give you is take it slow, research(make sure its current)/ask questions, and do it right, it will cost you less in the long run and save a lot of headaches.

[c_scherer123]

Not much SW experience (yet...), but I have spent many hours researching and lurking around this and other forums.

I would skip the canister, and use the money towards a good skimmer (which removes the waste before it enters the nitrification cycle). Do LOTS of research on the skimmer before buying so you don't have to replace the skimmer.

Depending on stocking I would go with a pair of koralia 3's or 4's. SPS like really high turbulence, while mushrooms and other softies prefer slower flow.

With that lighting I would go more LPS and some deeper water SPS.

I would use two smaller heaters, in case one heater breaks the other can pick up the slack until you notice.

It is easier to design the tank around what you are planning to stock. That is how I am planning my 90g - I knew which fish and corals I wanted, and I narrowed it down to those that could coexist in the same area without (hopefully) any problems arising. After that, it is relatively easy to figure out what lighting the corals need, what amount of flow is suitable, and so on. I drew a rough sketch of what I wanted the rockwork to look like, which corals go where, where to place powerheads to direct flow where it is most needed, and so on. The sketch greatly helped me plan and pulled all the pieces together for me.

[serratus]

Wow, it seems you guys are unanimous about not using a mechanical filter and going for a good protein skimmer.

I'm starting to learn that the nitrates are bad too and live rock filters that out. Now, here is where I am a bit confused and please point out if any of what I am saying is wrong: Live Rock as well as a cannister filter have bacteria that grows in them that converts ammonia into nitrite and then from nitrite to nitrate. So from what you are saying, is there a different bacteria that grows ONLY in the live rock that converts nitrate into nitrogen gas? These guys don't live in the cannister filter?

Second confusing point, whether you have a cannister filter or not, the amount of ammonia produced by the live stock will be the same which means the amount of available ammonia that gets converted into nitrite is the same. In turn, this means that cannister filter or not, the amount of nitrite available to convert into nitrate is the same. So how does the cannister filter INCREASE the nitrate levels? Wouldn't that be the same irregardless of cannister filter or not?

I don't mean to sound like I am arguing with you. I am not. It's just that I am confused and would like to find out why. It seems that all of you agree that cannister filters INCREASE nitrate levels so there must be some error in my thinking and that's why I am confused.

[Black Phantom]

Here's one vote "for" the cannister filter. I've run one on my 45 for years with no problems. But as everyone here has said, you have to keep it clean. It's the build up of detrius in the foam filter that causes the problem. I clean mine monthly with a new filter (washed) and I also run a bit of carbon in a bag as well. I did run live rock in there but I stopped as the detrius buildup on it was just as bad as the foam and much harder to clean.
Go ahead and run a cannister, but like the rest of your system you have to take care of it.

[Leah]

Hi! So many ways to do it, I ran a filter for years no problem what so ever and am guilty
of not cleaning faithfully always. I used Ehiem Pro II can and used the media that came with
the filter. In having recently taken off all filters it is way easier IMO. The filter was such
a hassel and I will never go back. I did start with them though and don't know any different, hangover from freshwater days. It was a huge plunge to take them off and I watched everything like a hawk...expecting some slight change but nothing, wish I had done it years ago.
How big is your tank? Did I miss that. Just take it all slowly and follow the advice from here as it is great. And remember there is no one way so you have to really decide and
just go for it. When I first started I had the L.F.S only for info, did not know about Canreef and I managed. So good luck and keep us posted and ask questions galore!!!
It is addicting so beware, hehe!!! Opps almost forgot get and use a skimmer for sure if
you can't get both then only get the skimmer.
Leah

[mike31154]

Wow, it seems you guys are unanimous about not using a mechanical filter and going for a good protein skimmer.

I'm starting to learn that the nitrates are bad too and live rock filters that out. Now, here is where I am a bit confused and please point out if any of what I am saying is wrong: Live Rock as well as a cannister filter have bacteria that grows in them that converts ammonia into nitrite and then from nitrite to nitrate. So from what you are saying, is there a different bacteria that grows ONLY in the live rock that converts nitrate into nitrogen gas? These guys don't live in the cannister filter?

Second confusing point, whether you have a cannister filter or not, the amount of ammonia produced by the live stock will be the same which means the amount of available ammonia that gets converted into nitrite is the same. In turn, this means that cannister filter or not, the amount of nitrite available to convert into nitrate is the same. So how does the cannister filter INCREASE the nitrate levels? Wouldn't that be the same irregardless of cannister filter or not?

I don't mean to sound like I am arguing with you. I am not. It's just that I am confused and would like to find out why. It seems that all of you agree that cannister filters INCREASE nitrate levels so there must be some error in my thinking and that's why I am confused.

I'm running a sumpless 75 gallon at the moment, a 90 or 120 with a sump is in the future but for now the 75 is fine and running with a protein skimmer (old school air driven, counter current) as well as a Rena XP canister filter. I don't see anything wrong with your rationale with respect to the process of nitrification. Since you're very new to this, you don't come with any pre judgements regarding some of the equipment used and the processes involved in keeping SW tanks. I often see canisters given a bad rap and yes they can be a problem, but they can also work well. Live rock or canister will both do the job, but as mentioned, the canister is better run without filter media, except for carbon and perhaps GFO (granulated ferric oxide) for phosphate control. With sufficient live rock in your system, a canister is redundant as far as mechanical filtration, but in your case, as in mine, without a sump, a canister can add several gallons of volume to your system which is never a bad thing. It also adds a little extra flow but you'll definitely need some additional pumps/powerheads to keep things circulating.

When I first set up the tank (purchased used) the Rena canister came with it and the previous owner had ceramic media in it and not much else. Being a newb I read the instructions for the filter and proceeded to get all the 'proper' filter media to put in there, foam pads, more ceramic, plastic media, etc. etc. It really did get to be a pain to clean properly and after reading a little more on line, on forums such as this, I realized that it's best to run the thing empty, except for a bag of carbon. This is working well so far and after more than two years after setting up, my nitrates are undetectable. I must note, however, that from about the 7 month mark to 1.5 years after set up, I battled elevated nitrates. Also noteworthy is that there was virtually no change to these levels after I removed all the media from the canister. No matter what I tried, nitrates would return to between 20-40 ppm within days of a 30% water change. Therefore, in my particular case, I do not consider my canister to have been a 'nitrate factory', any more than my live rock. I really have no definitive answer as to why my nitrates are currently undetectable, my theory is, the tank has simply matured to the point where things are taking care of themselves in that regard. I also suspect the addition of first one and recently a second VorTech MP40W has contributed to cleaning up the nitrates. The greatly improved flow from these pumps is making life a lot easier.

So, based on my experience, by all means run a canister if you wish, but avoid filter pads, run it empty. For sure get a protein skimmer, even a crappy one will at least provide oxygenation, although you should be able to get a very good used one for a reasonable price, if new is too costly. Even if you are going FOWLR, don't skimp on the pumps for flow, it will aid the live rock in the filtration process.

[c_scherer123]

Wow, it seems you guys are unanimous about not using a mechanical filter and going for a good protein skimmer.

I'm starting to learn that the nitrates are bad too and live rock filters that out. Now, here is where I am a bit confused and please point out if any of what I am saying is wrong: Live Rock as well as a cannister filter have bacteria that grows in them that converts ammonia into nitrite and then from nitrite to nitrate. So from what you are saying, is there a different bacteria that grows ONLY in the live rock that converts nitrate into nitrogen gas? These guys don't live in the cannister filter?

Second confusing point, whether you have a cannister filter or not, the amount of ammonia produced by the live stock will be the same which means the amount of available ammonia that gets converted into nitrite is the same. In turn, this means that cannister filter or not, the amount of nitrite available to convert into nitrate is the same. So how does the cannister filter INCREASE the nitrate levels? Wouldn't that be the same irregardless of cannister filter or not?

I don't mean to sound like I am arguing with you. I am not. It's just that I am confused and would like to find out why. It seems that all of you agree that cannister filters INCREASE nitrate levels so there must be some error in my thinking and that's why I am confused.

Being fairly new myself, I remember the confusion.
Ok, here is an example of why i would use a skimmer instead of a canister.
Eg. Feeding time - some brine shrimp (or other food/fish waste/etc) is floating around the water column. The water current is supposed to keep stuff from falling on the sand/substrate. So, it can get sucked into a canister - if you have foam, it can sit there decompose until you clean it (image a fish sitter on holidays...). Or it can get sucked into the skimmer which would throw it into the foam in the cup. The foam isn't part of the system now (unless it overflows...) and it tossed out on a regular basis.

As for live rock, as I understand it (and someone may correct me on this), there is a special bacteria deep inside the rock which operates in anerobic conditions to help remove some of the nitrates. The rock also converts ammonia into nitrites and into nitrate, but it also has a small capacity to (remove/convert?) nitrates. Foam in the filter just lacks the ability to remove nitrate. (Also, how many times have you managed to rinse a sponge completely clean?)
A canister with carbon can provide extra flow, but a powerhead will provide more flow for less money (and lacks the capacity to leak water on the floor if it breaks). Just provides a nice place to hide some carbon.

[Leah]

Thought I might mention all my tanks are sumpless and relatively simple.

[Leah]

Just thought about something else to consider, while I was cleaning skimmers. It was a
pain where I live and that is when the power would go out I would have to unplug all
filters empty and clean them....that is if I was home was at home when it happened,
for me it was a huge job. Hope this is helping and not adding to your confussion.

[Ian]

since you are getting advice from persons far more knowledgable than myself all I will say is welcome and you have made the smartest move you can by joining this forum and asking questions

[Slick Fork]

I think the thing to take away from the cannister vs no cannister discussion is that IF you clean them religiously, they're not necessarily an evil place to run carbon and GFO and if you had one already I would not dissuade you from using it.

However, since you don't already have one there are much more efficient ways to spend your money. Yes:
- You can run carbon adn GFO in it but you can also run carbon and GFO in a HOB filter that is easier to clean.
- You can put live rock in it, you can also put live rock in your tank.
- You can use it to increase flow, powerheads do this much more efficiently
- You can use it to "add a gallon or two" but really, on a 50 gallon tank I think the argument could be made that a gallon or two isn't really going to make a noticeable difference.

So really, since you don't already own one... I think the question you should be asking is not "Can I get away with using a cannister filter?" but, "Will spending money on a Cannister filter instead of other things benefit me somehow?" As an example I'll use J&L aquatics pricing (I know you found the 405 on ebay but I have no idea what the price was so we'll stick with J&L) A fluval 405 would run you $199. For that kind of money you could buy 2 Koralia 4's and a phosban reactor kit to run carbon & Rowaphos.

This can be a VERY expensive hobby if you let it. The key is figuring out which investments will get you the best returns, otherwise you could spend a fortune throwing good money after bad