Can't stop the losses

[Jason McK]

Ok I've come to my breaking point.

I've been losing SPS for the last 2 months. Then Last night my 7 year old Hammer Coral is turning to mush and dieing as well.

I've checked everything
My water is good
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrites 0.0
Nitrates 0.0
Phosphates >0.03
PH 8.0 -> 8.4
Temp 79.0
SG 35 or 1.026
CA 430
ALk 8 DKH
MAG 1350

I have checked for AEFW and Red bugs
I have stopped the use of Zeovit
Installed a 40W UV sterilizer
I'm running 1L of GFO and 1L of Carbon
performing 2X 40G water changes a week

I've lost 95% of all SPS and now it appears as though my LPS are next.
Through out the this whole situation my Hammer has not extended it's polyps fully.
Fish inverts and Clams all seem unaffected

Looking for any suggestions

Thanks
Jason

[i have crabs]

maybe some bacteria problem going on, not really anyway of knowing i dont think, and im shure any kind of treatment would f-up your cycle big time

[christyf5]

Man Jason, that just sucks hard :neutral:. I was going to suggest maybe a bacterial infection but you're running UV which you would think would keep it at bay or at least at low levels. Have you tried dipping your corals? Dipping them and holding them in another tank to see if its the tank or the corals?

Just throwing stuff out there.... 151 views and no comments, thought I should offer something.

[globaldesigns]

Jason, sorry to hear about your troubles...

I don't know what to suggest, as your parameters seem good. How old are your bulbs for lighting?

[Snaz]

Tested for Copper? Reaching here but maybe an errant bolt or other metallic bit is leaching Cu into the system?

[Aquattro]

The first thing that I read here is that you've done a lot to try and stop it. Maybe too much change too quickly?
I suffered the same type of losses a few years back, due to what I believe was vibrio. I treated with an antibiotic and losses did stop. For me though, it was fairly simple to tell, since anytime I scratched my arm working in the tank, I'd get a nasty infection.

[Jason McK]

Thanks all.

Brad, I haven't exerienced anything like vibrio, I had remembered you having that problem and searched your solution a couple of months ago.
I was leaning toward a change in the CA I'm using in my dosing system but can not find anything negative about it online and TomR is using it without any negative results.

But I agree, I think I brewed up the perfect Storm for this crash, Too much too Soon

J

[Doug]

Crap Jason. I was just looking at your totm thread again to see if anything popped up. Nothing though. All those beautiful acros.

First, I thought taking a tank of something like Zeo or the others, had to be done slowly? Could that now be adding to the original problem.

Second, whenever a tank is stunning, Zeo or again, whichever other prodcuts one uses, gets the credit. Could there possibly be something in the regiment that could cause these problems, perhaps if one of the additives was a bad batch or something? I dont know, like the others, just throwing things out.

[Jason McK]

I thought, when I pulled off the Zeovit reactor I would see a noticeable decline in the tank. But nothing accelerated in it's downward trend. So I concluded that the Zeo pull did not effect the tank too harshly.
But that is just the theory

J

[Samw]

You don't use Instant Ocean do you? I believe I had a bad batch of Instant Ocean recently (about 2-3 months ago). My powerhead turned white when mixing it. The newly mixed water stayed cloudy after mixing for a day. My mixing tank had a film of white residue that won't dissolve. I used the water anyways for my water changes. Not surprisingly, I lost a few corals and many declined after that. I stopped using that batch and I bought a new bag of Instant Ocean which mixed fine and my corals have recovered.

[Jason McK]

Nope I'm using reefers Best. But at this point I'm not sure why I'm using such an expensive salts for what is esentially a fish only system

J

[fkshiu]

Perhaps you can try a mini-reboot to the system. Take a few pieces of LR and a couple of coral and put them into a completely separate and brand new 10 gallon system, for example, and see what happens.

[Snappy]

Sorry to hear about this Jason.
When I read this my immediate thought was perhaps some kids used your tank as a wishing well or as Snaz said something is leaching into the system.

[Red Coral Aquariums]

Sorry to hear about your losses.

Some thoughts that come to mind that might be worth consideration.

Stray Voltage?
Recent MH bulb change and bad bulb (rad++)
Painted or lead objects in tank
R/O problem ( bad filters)
Change in air quality ( something in air) air conditioning etc.

Good luck
Kevin

[Sebae again]

I had a bad batch of RBS. I think if we get the top or bottom of the batch it might not be mixed well.Heavier elements will settle to the bottom and it is something we dont test for.Also small amounts of something over time could build up to toxic levels.

[untamed]

Believe me, I feel your pain. My coral continues to kick the bucket one species at a time. Hard to kill a hammer coral, though.

I'm looking back at myself and realizing that the tank was doing it's best when it was new. Now, two-three years in, things are more difficult. So what has changed? I'm going hard after accumulations of things...That means vaccuuming sand beds and siphoning detritus out of places I couldn't reach before.

I'm scraping walls of the sump removing millions of tubeworms...trying to reset the system back to the way it was when I started it.

The only other variable that has changed for me is that the fish are now MUCH larger and produce significantly more waste than they used to. I don't quite know how to deal with that one, if it is related to the problems.

So...it sounds like we are dealing a similar problem, although you seem to be having a bit worse time than me. SOME of my coral seems to be doing OK. I don't think you will find your solution in measurable water parameters.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Jason & Brad,

I have 2 3' x 28" x 22" 91g tanks sitting empty if you want to borrow & set up to try to save your corals.

Let me know. I also have some spare equipment to go with those tanks to set them up for a while as you try to get things under control.

Anthony

[Aquattro]

Just curious, how old and how deep is the sand bed?

[cprowler]

That F'n buffs balls!

I was thinking sand bed also and bad bulb.

[Jason McK]

My Sand bend is an inch to 1.5 at best.

Thanks for the offer Anthony I might just take you up on that

cprowler, You made me laugh. Good to see you around.

J

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

If you need more volume, I also have a spare 120g with stand kicking around that you can borrow.

Anthony

[lastlight]

I agree isolating a few corals in another tank may lead to new theories here. Such a beautiful tank you had...I'm rooting for you.

[niloc16]

WOW. deja vu. i really know where youre coming from on this one jason. i'm really sorry to hear about this, although i know that doesnt help. i'm trying to think outside the box here on this one, who is the manufacturer of your tank? and what about your tank brad? my tank seemd to go for crap at the 2 year point as well and still had not bloody clue what caused it. i'm wondering if there is something funky with the silicone used for the tank that began to leach something. i know it sounds extreme but just an idea. my tank was a seastar tank so i'm curious if manufacturers were the same.

[Aquattro]

Colin, my tanks have all been Seastar, they use the GE 1200 silicone, well used in the industry. Don't think it's that.

[Jason McK]

Thanks All. My Tank is Seastar as well. Something else I noticed as kind of Odd. I've had a sudden explosion of coraline algae. My tank never used to get coraline growth now I'm scraping it off everything

J

[fishoholic]

That sucks, sorry to hear about your losses. I've lost a few corals before that have done well for years then all of a sudden they shrivel up and start to die. It's really frustrating watching a coral die that did so well for so long especially when you can't figure out why and nothing you try helps.

I wonder if there is something to the build up of gunk in the sand bed, or perhaps some corals need something from the ocean that our tanks can't give them and that has something to do with it. Not really sure but I thought I'd throw that out there.

[Aquattro]

. I've had a sudden explosion of coraline algae. My tank never used to get coraline growth now I'm scraping it off everything

J

Maybe due to the extra nutrients from die off?

[fishoholic]

Thanks All. My Tank is Seastar as well. Something else I noticed as kind of Odd. I've had a sudden explosion of coraline algae. My tank never used to get coraline growth now I'm scraping it off everything

J

Hummm, I wonder, we started to use a calcium reactor (about 3 months ago) because we wanted more coraline growth. Within the last few weeks I've finally noticed more coraline, right about at the same time my yellow tree coral (which was huge and had been doing well for the past 3 years) started shriveling up and dying. No idea if it's connected or not but I think I'll take my calcium reactor off line and see if it makes a difference or not. Are you running one?

[untamed]

If I'm dealing with similar problems, it can't be silicon since my tank is acrylic.

I can't blame the Ca reactor because mine has been shut down for months now. The tank stopped using ca/alk to the point where only a bit of Kalk is required for Ca/Alk levels.

[Jason McK]

I took my CA reactor off line in April and started using a 2 part dosing system. But that has been off for 1.5 months because my tank isn't using CA or Alk. Like Brad

J

[H2o2]

Stray voltage?,I found mine when I had a cut on my hand and was working on the tank with bare feet .Floor wet,nice little tingle.Did you change any wall plugs on any circut and simply put the wires on the wrong side of the receptical or one of the wires is touching the wall box and it is now feeding through your ground rod? Just drawing at straws

[littlesilvermax]

Just some thoughts.

-I hate sand! I would take it out.
-maybe a test kit is off?

-do you have SPS in a frag system (not in main display) but still using same water? (My dwarf angels, at least I think it is them, are nibbling more and more on my SPS in the main display, but as soon as I put a piece in my basement sump/frag system it starts to grow.

[Jason McK]

Thanks H2o2 I've ruled out stry voltage But good thought

J

[Jason McK]

Hey Ben Thanks for chiming in.

The sand could be a problem but it's really only an inch deep. Hardly a nitrate factory. Plus I have very little Algae and very low Nitrates. but I gues it could be hiding something we do not measure.
As for test kits. I have 3 sets of Salifert and Elos. I have also taken water to OA. All readings are the same.

J

[fencer]

Interesting just some thoughts
1 Toxins leaching out for tank..not likely as he does 80 gal/wk water changes
2 Infection...maybe even with the UV on...he states that he has progressively losing corals ( most fragile to least lps's. UV could upset the bacterial balance in a zeo system??
3. Something in the water(DI/RO???) or salt..maybe
4 Zeo crash...maybe...mineral imbalance?
5. Did you check orp?
6. Nitrates in the tank...not unless he has stirred up the sand
7. Some thing is releasing toxins in the tank...algae bloom maybe. Toxins are not usually destroyed by UV and only paritlly skiimmed out.

[michika]

The first thing that popped into my head was the salt. I've read a couple recent cases on RC about people experiencing similarly described issues. I think the cases were either in the Reef Discussion section, or SPS Keepers section.

[Delphinus]

Sorry to hear J.

Personally I don't think this sort of thing really can be attribute to a deterministic number of parameters. In a sense, tanks just get old. It's not really something that we can say "oh ya, three years, old tank syndrome." But it is things like accumulations, and something pathogenic in nature that gains a toehold and that's really it until something gives (or you give, and either do a tank tear down or tank reset). Before anyone says "but he has UV and it didn't help", the problem is that a UV cannot get every single thing present in the tank. A couple months ago when Jason was looking for a UV, I even said it back then, I think it improved my own situation *some*, but: 1) it took close to six months to make a difference and 2) I still would not say I have a 100% turnaround. Some things are doing better, some things remain the same. I can't keep SPS anymore, plain and simple, it's a fact of life I've had to accept with some measure of difficulty and humility.

But, for what it's worth, I look at many new tanks with a measure of envy for what I see in them. I remember fondly the days of keeping colourful SPS, but it was years and years ago now. I truly do believe that newer tanks have an easier go of things, and older setups, due to many different and possibly uncountably complex interactions, a tank gets to a point it is not able to sustain growth that it used to, and it's not a case of something you can necessarily measure, like a stray voltage or a bad parameter or two or a salt brand or batch.

Sorry, I guess this isn't really helpful. You have my sympathies and empathy Jason .. I wish you the best of luck.

[lastlight]

What makes a tank old though? Could a person not remove all the corals from an old tank and place them into a large frag tank of sorts when things decline? Then replace all your rock, water, sand, filter media etc. It's be like having a new tank with a massive supply of corals to add.

[Delphinus]

I'd pretty much call that a tank reset ..

[lastlight]

seems like a good idea to me. but when does a person decide it's worth it i guess.

[fishytime]

Purely speculation, but I wonder if the issue is related to the fact that your acros were apparently not using any calcium? Seems odd that a tank with so many hard corals would suddenly stop using calcium. Perhaps a shift in water parameters changed the corals ability to calcify and grow?

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

I suspect that it was partly due to too many changes to the tank over the last several months. Changing salts, changing zeovit, changing Ca reactor to dosing, etc.

Could have started with a bad batch of new salt but then all the other changes simply compounded the problem and created a downward spiral effect.

Just some thoughts discussed with other local reefers.

BTW, do-over tank is available anytime for borrowing.

Anthony

[Snaz]

Ok lets just speculate here and accept the tanks are failing because of some "Three year old Syndrome". What is causing the failure? Rocks getting too full detritus? Sandbed is breeding some micro nasty? The corals themselves reach a point in growth that they somehow cause a tank to fail?

If it was a sandbed issue then tanks without sand would not be effected. If "Three year old Syndrome" were real then some comparison might reveal a common denominator in the failed tanks. Perhaps someone with time and skill could troll the boards looking at failed tanks and do some comparison analysis.

[marie]

Purely speculation, but I wonder if the issue is related to the fact that your acros were apparently not using any calcium? Seems odd that a tank with so many hard corals would suddenly stop using calcium. Perhaps a shift in water parameters changed the corals ability to calcify and grow?

When my tank went down hill last year, I suddenly stopped using calcium. I had to take my calcium reactor offline completely and was only using a little bit of kalk.
I have no idea what happened or what turned everything around again...I blamed it on the interceptor treatments I was doing at the time but...

[Jason McK]

Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm tending to agree with Anthony on this one. I believe is was too much change too quickly. Or at leaste I hope that is what is going on. I really don't want it to be OTS

[blaster]

Any pictures?

[Jason McK]

No I won't take any pictures, it's too depressing
and I think everyone knows what dead coral looks like

[MitchM]

Your frustration level must be sky high:sad:

This grabbed my attention from your mention of extra corraline growth. I've been having an algae and coral dying problem for quite a while, but corraline has been showing up more.

I have tried everything in my arsenal and it hardly seems to make a difference:sad:

I have convinced myself that it is due to the 10+ year old rock in my system. I think the rock and coral skeletons have simply become saturated and are now releasing whatever it is back into the water column.

I'm getting close to taking pieces of rock and placing them in a container of fresh water for a few months, getting the stuff to leach out and starting over again with base rock. I have a number of corals that overgrown the rocks, so it won't be pretty.

Mitch

[Jason McK]

My Thoughts on the Coraline issue has to do with the fact that my corals are not using CA at all. Plus I think using the DOW Bulk CA has caused a huge increase in Borate levels this could effect the SPS but not Coraline.

J

[Doug]

I dont agree with all the OTS, including the rock. When Dr. Shimek discussed this, I said when the day comes I have to throw out $10/lb. rock, I,m packing it in. :lol:

I have some rock thats 20yrs. with me alone. Some of its is in Mikes beautiful sps tank and see no problems from it. There,s many European tanks with rock older than many on here :lol:

I could certainly see OTS, {if there is such a thing}, coming from an older sandbed. Still think so many little things come in to play here and with many tanks suffering the same. I also think most are impossible to track down to one thing.

My 225, for those that can remember back then, :lol:, could never grow sps but could grow coralline so thick it was in layers on the back. That ended up being a combination alkalinity problem, between Instant Ocean, {which I still use and swear by}, and my well water and the use of RO.

However, all that being said, I have been know to be wrong before.

My heart feels for Jason though and any others going through this. Its so sad to see.

[MitchM]

My main tank is a BB, and has a 1 year old remote 2" DSB.
The bacterial turgor that takes place in the LR is only in the upper few millimeters, isn't it? That's what makes me think that the bulk of the LR mass is saturated.

Of course, I could be wrong too.:mrgreen:

Mitch

[mandarin man]

sorry to hear about your losses.

I am just wondering what kind of KH test kit you are using? You might want to get a sample of the water to the LFS for a complete test (especially the KH). Test kits do go wrong even with high end brands like salifer or elos.

My mother had similar problem, all her corals shivered up and declined rapidly when all the parameters were all good. She was grieving for a few weeks. We could not figure out what is going on.

So I took my complete test kits and tested her water. It turned out that her ELOS KH kit was bad; her read 7dkH, but it was actually 3.5dKH. The LFS also confirmed it was 3.5.

I think it might worth while to let someone else test it.

[BlueAbyss]

The bacterial turgor that takes place in the LR is only in the upper few millimeters, isn't it? That's what makes me think that the bulk of the LR mass is saturated.

From what I can remember, if the rock is highly porous (or you are talking about a substrate like sand or gravel) the aerobic portion of the bacteria can be up to 1" deep. After that, the fauna turns to anaerobic... this wouldn't happen too deep in relatively dense rock.

[Doug]

My main tank is a BB, and has a 1 year old remote 2" DSB.
The bacterial turgor that takes place in the LR is only in the upper few millimeters, isn't it? That's what makes me think that the bulk of the LR mass is saturated.

Of course, I could be wrong too.:mrgreen:

Mitch

Its the loaded rock theory in general that I have some doubts about Mitch. I suppose it could happen in specific tanks, depending on what the rocks like. Some of my old stuff has grown a fair bit from coralline growth. I wonder if its even porous anymore.

[MitchM]

With the LR being broken down and being porous it just makes sense to me that hidden/stagnant/anaerobic areas may have concentrations of chemicals being released that would otherwise be diluted and removed via our various export mechanisms. I have no scientific data to back me up... just MYHO.:smile:

There was mention earlier of a lot of changes happening in Jason's tank over a short period of time;
I haven't been following his tank history, but I did come across an article that indicates that changes in a coral's environment can actually turn the coral against itself.

Here is the article:

http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2009/may/biological-studies-shed-light-collapse-coral-reefs

Mitch