is Potassium required for reef???? Help??

[mandarin man]

Is it important or required to dose potassium into the reef tank? I mostly have LPS - scoly, favia, acan, blasto, mushroom...

I do 5-10% water change every week with reef crystal. Thanks advance for your help....

[marie]

It's never a good idea to dose things you don't/can't test for...for what it's worth I've never dosed potassium or felt a need to :biggrin:

[banditpowdercoat]

Never dosed it helre either. Mostly what you have, check the Ca, Mg and Alk

[xtreme]

Even with the potassium test kit from KZ its really hard to get an accurate reading, and like mentioned its not the best idea to dose something if you don't know where your level is at.

[mandarin man]

I understand that dosing without testing is not good, but let's say if I measure and the potassium is low; I am wondering if dosing is required?

What does potassium do to the LPS or coral in general? I did some researches on line but go minimum info on potassium.

[Jason McK]

More and more the level of Potassium is becoming main streem. I belive within the next couple of years you will see more and more test kits on the market. With level in NSW being measured at or around the same levels as CA, it must play a role in the reef environment. Origonally the Zeovit system put a lot of stock into the level of Potassium and there fore Reefers Best Salt also was created with good levels of Potassium. Now also Deltec H2O salt clames higher levels of Potassium.
So the long and short of it is I think it plays a role. That role is yet to be determined and it might just be on the edge of becoming another important ellement of your water

J

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

From having messed around with it while on the ZEO system, I found color is much nicer once K+ is at the right levels. Once I finally got it within a good range, colors got mush better even though I had thought they were already good before. When I let the levels drop again, color went back to how it was. Many people on the ZEO forum seem to have found the same thing.

Im not sure what it effects for sure (not sure who does) but you may as well keep it at NSW levels. I still test for it once a month now. Its easy to keep levels high once you get them there.

I agree with Jason, it will become way more mainstream eventually.

[globaldesigns]

I have to agree with the others, never dose unless you can test. I do dose pottassium, but I use the Zeovit test kit. I find it hard to use but it does give me a baseline and I tend to dose less than more. Pottassium is said to improve colors of color especially in SPS

Be careful in dosing anything, never do unless you can test and know what to do with the results in regards to the dosing.

Happy Day to all!!!

[mandarin man]

I believe ELOS makes potassium test kit. I will get it today and test it out in my tank. Also, I have noticed that "Reef Pure" makes "Balanced ion Potassium suppment"; I am wondering is it OK to use or any one experience with this product?

Thanks

[sphelps]

Potassium is a key element but more so for SPS corals. Low potassium can lead to color fading, lower growth and even STN. All salts contain potassium but usually at around 300ppm, natural sea water is around 380ppm so usually dosing is a good idea if you plan on keeping any SPS corals, otherwise regular water changes should be sufficient.

Also I dose many things without being able to test for it, these include amino acids, PotassiumIodide Fluoride, Pohl's B-Balance, and other trace element supplements. I believe these additives play a huge role in my coral health and vitality and I know many others who claim the same. Sometimes testing isn't needed, you can dose lower amounts and observe how the livestock responds and go from there. Besides I think it would be foolish to put too much trust in any test kit, even quality test kits will often give false readings from time to time.

[BlueAbyss]

As was mentioned above, most people don't put too much stock in Potassium (though it's likely just as important an ion as calcium and magnesium), but it couldn't hurt to maintain it at NSW levels if you can test for it.

[mandarin man]

Thank you guys for helping me. I am new to this amazing hobby and I am trying to learn as much as I can.

I bought the KZ potassium test kit, tested the water and it is almost impossible to see the results without placing the test vial underneath the sun light or a very very bright light. It came out to be approximately 250mg/l to 275mg/l. Any one experiences with this test kit and have a better way of testing this? Am I doing it correctly by placing it under the sun?

I also bought reef pure potassium and started dosing it slowly. Let's see what happen

Thanks

[Myka]

I recently got the KZ kalium kit as well, and was a bit miffed by the way you test it. Kinda weird. I tested old water that I saved from my 33g before it transferred here, and then tested my 90g that i have here now. Both were around 240 or 250 ppm. I haven't figured out which product I'm going to use to supplement, but I'm excited to hopefully see some results. I'm interested to see if there will be any difference in my tank since it is 95% LPS.

[mandarin man]

Hi Myka

I am wondering how you tested yours? It is so milky and cloudy that I could make out the reading without placing it under the bright light.

[Myka]

I also had difficulty. I read mine under a flourescent tube we have over the kitchen sink. It's just one of those 18" white household tubes. I imagine sunlight would be the best to use. I will try that next time.

[mandarin man]

Hi Myka, you probably have seen one of the thread showed the pics of the actual test which the test vial was placed under another pic of white paper which also placed under the color test chart. Are we missing something? The test kit never state any thing about the other white paper.

[sphelps]

I have the same test kit but I never found it that difficult to read, I think lower concentrations may be harder to read as they are whiter but once you get it up to around 350 to 400 you may find it much easier to read.

I use Zeovit K-Balance to supplement potassium but since I use RBS it rarely drops below 350.

[christyf5]

Thank you guys for helping me. I am new to this amazing hobby and I am trying to learn as much as I can.

I bought the KZ potassium test kit, tested the water and it is almost impossible to see the results without placing the test vial underneath the sun light or a very very bright light. It came out to be approximately 250mg/l to 275mg/l. Any one experiences with this test kit and have a better way of testing this? Am I doing it correctly by placing it under the sun?

I also bought reef pure potassium and started dosing it slowly. Let's see what happen

Thanks

I find placing it under the brightest light source possible is the way to go. I test in my bathroom, plenty of light in there :razz: It is a fairly frustrating test kit to read though.

Definitely dose slowly and keep an eye on your potassium levels. Once you see it hit 380 or so (as sphelps says, the higher the K+ the harder the kit is to read) level off and see how your tank does after a week of no dosing, then you can aim for a weekly dosing rate (or try whatever it says on the bottle, some are weekly dosing, some are daily).

I think once you get your dosing closer to NSW you'll find you'll get a bit better coloration out of your corals. I was running the full zeo system and quit cold turkey. Lately I have been working on my potassium levels back on track and things are coloring up nicely.

[Myka]

Christy, I think sphelps said that the higher concentration is easier to read. By my understanding anyway.

I'm not going to pay the ZEO price for a potassium supplement though, I need to find something else. I haven't started looking yet though. I've also heard that it seems to take a lot of supplement to bump it up.

Hi Myka, you probably have seen one of the thread showed the pics of the actual test which the test vial was placed under another pic of white paper which also placed under the color test chart. Are we missing something? The test kit never state any thing about the other white paper.

I haven't seen the thread you're talking about. My kit came with a small square of white paper that has a hole in it the same size as the bottom of the test container, then you slide it along. is that what you're talking about?

[christyf5]

Yes Myka you're right, sorry, it would appear that more coffee is needed this morning :wink:

I actually found that the lower concentrations were easier to read but anything above say 325 or so was extremely difficult. Eventually I just aimed for a cloudy enough solution to obscure the 400 level and figured I was good to go.

I actually find that the zeo PIF supplement lasts quite awhile for the price, it only takes a couple of drops a day to maintain NSW levels. Then again, there may be something else out there that gets the job done for cheaper.

[Myka]

Which one is the "PIF"? I see a regular and a strong version.

I seem to remember reading that potassium is taken up slowly, so once you get it to NSW levels it is easy to maintain, but getting it there takes a lot. If this is the case, maybe it's time to change the salt. *gasp*

[sphelps]

Which one is the "PIF"? I see a regular and a strong version.

I seem to remember reading that potassium is taken up slowly, so once you get it to NSW levels it is easy to maintain, but getting it there takes a lot. If this is the case, maybe it's time to change the salt. *gasp*
PIF I'm guessing is the potassium iodide fluoride, there's also K-Balance with is just a potassium supplement. I use both and find they last a long time, yes they are more money than other types but check the dosage rate. Usually other supplements are 5ml per 25gal while zeovit is 1 drop per 25 gal so more often than not zeovit is the better value. I also like the higher concentrations for the fact that your putting less unknown substances in the tank and I simply trust zeovit over other brands so even if it does cost a little more I don't mind. Same goes for the RB salt, it costs more but you'll dose less and possibly even save a little money.

[albert_dao]

You don't want to use PIF to maintain K+ levels. You'll overdose with iodide before you hit 380 ppm. K Balance Strong is the way to go.

[mandarin man]

Myka, you are right, there is a small square paper with the small hole. I did not know what it was so I threw it away. Could not find it... I hope it does not affect the test too much.

Tailor Aquatics also makes K in very high concentration (5ml per 100gal once a week; however, they don't specify the quantity of dosing). I assume it is high concentration. 500ml bottle is less than $20.

I agree with you all, the KZ K is the way to go

[sphelps]

You don't want to use PIF to maintain K+ levels. You'll overdose with iodide before you hit 380 ppm. K Balance Strong is the way to go.
You don't want to use PIF to raise the potassium level, but you can use it to maintain it. When used properly that is exactly what it's made for, maintaining both potassium and iodide levels. By "properly" I mean never exceeding dosing instructions and using a little common sense. For example if it states 1 drop per 25gal daily I would assume this is for a fully stocked high demand system, if you have a medium demand system you would dose half.

[albert_dao]

You don't want to use PIF to raise the potassium level, but you can use it to maintain it. When used properly that is exactly what it's made for, maintaining both potassium and iodide levels. By "properly" I mean never exceeding dosing instructions and using a little common sense. For example if it states 1 drop per 25gal daily I would assume this is for a fully stocked high demand system, if you have a medium demand system you would dose half.

Well... no. PIF is a color refining product that has little of no capability of maintaining any significant levels of K+. The biggest problem with trying to achieve any form of K+ dosing with PIF is that it WILL result in an overdose of Iodide. You're better off doing water changes with a salt that has elevated levels of K+.

That said, PIF is untouchable for producing vivid blue coloration.

[trilinearmipmap]

Potassium is found in all living cells. I you are feeding your tank either prepared or frozen food, you are dosing potassium.

Since potassium test kits are notoriously inaccurate, the logical way to dose potassium would be to keep up with regular water changes. This would bring K up if it is too low, and reduce K if too much K were being introduced by feedings.

The exception would be if it is proved that a given salt mix has a lower K concentration than sea water does. In that case, adding a potassium supplement (for example KCL or K2SO4) to water change water in an amount calculated to bring the K up to sea water levels might make sense.

[Myka]

Since potassium test kits are notoriously inaccurate

This is something I worry about...I really don't think the KZ test is very accurate, but possibly that is mostly attributed to user inability. I wish it was the type that you put drops in until it changes color (I forget the terminology for that). I find those are really easy to read, and have much less room for error, or guess work.

[albert_dao]

BOOYAH:

http://www.worldwidereefers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413

I've never had trouble figuring out the reading on this test kit, and finally, after reading this post, have figured out why - I take the FIRST impression and don't dwell on the visual as it becomes more and more relative as your eye adjust to the sample (thanks Alexander).

HTH's

[christyf5]

BOOYAH:

http://www.worldwidereefers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413

I've never had trouble figuring out the reading on this test kit, and finally, after reading this post, have figured out why - I take the FIRST impression and don't dwell on the visual as it becomes more and more relative as your eye adjust to the sample (thanks Alexander).

HTH's


Yeah thats what I have been doing as well, it isn't hard for your eye to adjust and "envision" that orange line through your sample. I realized that right away but my eyes are pretty quick, making it tough to come up with a reading on the spot. Eventually I covered up the rest of the line with a piece of paper, seems to do the trick :biggrin:

[sphelps]

Well... no. PIF is a color refining product that has little of no capability of maintaining any significant levels of K+. The biggest problem with trying to achieve any form of K+ dosing with PIF is that it WILL result in an overdose of Iodide. You're better off doing water changes with a salt that has elevated levels of K+.

That said, PIF is untouchable for producing vivid blue coloration.
And exactly how does this product produce "vivid blue coloration"? It is after all simply potassium iodide so obviously it adds both potassium and iodide so how can one say it won't help maintain both potassium and iodide levels? You can't use it to raise levels but with regular water changes it must help maintain K levels, to say otherwise simply doesn't make sense. Also how can you overdose on iodide by following proper dosing directions? K is +1 and Iodide is -1 so close to equal amounts are added.

[StirCrazy]

or you could just run a Ca reactor with a good ballanced media in it to keep all your trace elements up.. :mrgreen:

I never doesed K and never tested it.. never even heard of worring about it untill reciently.. amazing how we ever grew nice SPS tank a few years ago :wink:'

Steve

[albert_dao]

Son of a... I had a WICKED reply with molar masses and everything here and the stupid browser screwed up. Anyway, here's a dumbed down version... God...

And exactly how does this product produce "vivid blue coloration"?

If you're looking for a scientific explanation, that's beyond my realm of knowledge. But here's what happens:

You add it to a ULN tank, your acros get super blue. /end

It is after all simply potassium iodide so obviously it adds both potassium and iodide so how can one say it won't help maintain both potassium and iodide levels?

When you look at a product like Potassium Iodide, you should be reading it as Iodide. Period. We're talking about an inorganic compound (K+I−) where the potassium is pretty much irrelevant.

You can't use it to raise levels but with regular water changes it must help maintain K levels, to say otherwise simply doesn't make sense. Also how can you overdose on iodide by following proper dosing directions? K is +1 and Iodide is -1 so close to equal amounts are added.

Iodide is found in NSW at concentrations of 0.06 mg/L
Potassium occurs at 0.4 g/L or 400 mg/L

The water changes (assume a salt that isn't chronically low in potassium) is what helps maintain your levels, not potassium iodide. If you droped even 1% potassium and tried to level it off with PIF, you're going to poision stuff.

[albert_dao]

or you could just run a Ca reactor with a good ballanced media in it to keep all your trace elements up.. :mrgreen:

I never doesed K and never tested it.. never even heard of worring about it untill reciently.. amazing how we ever grew nice SPS tank a few years ago :wink:'

Steve


This is bankrupt, no offense. Potassium augments the overall vigor of corals and that's something that you can find user support for even within the confines of this thread. Just because it wasn't used during the pioneering days of SPS systems hardly ratifies the position that it is superfluous.

The closer we get to ULN NSW water levels, the more and more we find that super low Potassium levels leads to destrimental health problems with many corals (especially SPS). This was traditionally not the case back when our tanks struggled with NO3's and phosphates, but that's all changed over the past couple years with the surging popularity of probiotic methodologies. But I digress - you run ULN for any given length of time paying no heed to your potassium (using a lower grade salt, not dosing, etc) and your SPS starts to get pale and sickly. You bring the levels up to NSW and bam, everything flourishes again.

[StirCrazy]

The closer we get to ULN NSW water levels, the more and more we find that super low Potassium levels leads to detrimental health problems with many corals (especially SPS). This was traditionally not the case back when our tanks struggled with NO3's and phosphates, but that's all changed over the past couple years with the surging popularity of probiotic methodologies. But I digress - you run ULN for any given length of time paying no heed to your potassium (using a lower grade salt, not dosing, etc) and your SPS starts to get pale and sickly. You bring the levels up to NSW and bam, everything flourishes again.

I agree that it is important, having as close to NSW values is very important, all I am saying is that with a good alround media that is dissolved into the tank you should have enough K.

on a side note if stores and such are pushing stuff to help get the perfect water levels why are they still telling you that you need over 400ppm of Ca? the average NSW for the world is 380 to 400 so why are people trying to get 450 when it is actually hard on the corals.. oh and there is research that shows that also. (Simplified version is that the coral has to expend more energy to remove the Ca from equilibrium in its cells to deposit it as a skeleton for new growth)

I won't say every store, as there are several good ones, but on average the job of a store is to sell stuff.. so if they can bring something to the fore front that wasn't realy looked at befor as it is one of thoes things that is general good, then heck theres a whole new sale on a line of chemicals and test kits. but like I said not all stores are like this and I am not implying that any one reading this is like this but rather just the way things are out there. If I owned a store whould I bing this in.. if it is going to sell hell ya. if it is going to sit on the shelf for ever nope, I can put something in that space that would actualy make money.

the problem I have with this K thing is generaly people who are hard core SPS are running massive amount of Ca reactor material, one of the most popular is Carb sea which is a ballanced media. so I could see on initial set up making sure everything is deicent then checking for K maybe every couple months.. and for the record for the last year my SPS take was running I did test for K twice.. it was a little over 400 each time. this is why I don't understand how it gets depleted on a sps tank running a Ca reactor. oh and I was running IO (the only salt I will use) and had zero phosphates and nitrates.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

On a side note, I read my original post and it could be taken as I am against the use of K or anthing like that.. no I am not.. if you need it you need it, but befor you run out and waist a bunch of money make sure you need it. I was pushing the importance of Mg quite a while befor people actualy started to worry about it so yes there are things we take for granted and assume we have a proper level. go in with people on a K test kit and maybe spread out the testing and only add if it is realy needed.. I am dead against the blind dosing of tanks. as it can cause major problems. K is a highly reactive material which is why you can only get it bound to another one.. I have seen a overdose of a purer form of K wipe out an entire 300+ gal sps tank, so be carfull of what you buy and how you use it.

another point is I am not against new methods or chemicals either.. well maybe zeo as I still think it is way to much work for what it is.. but I am debating dropping the Ca reactor from my new tank infavor of the balling method and such.. now to me if you are going to go to a new method it has to acomplish the same thing or more and be more simple.

Steve

[albert_dao]

on a side note if stores and such are pushing stuff to help get the perfect water levels why are they still telling you that you need over 400ppm of Ca? the average NSW for the world is 380 to 400 so why are people trying to get 450 when it is actually hard on the corals.. oh and there is research that shows that also. (Simplified version is that the coral has to expend more energy to remove the Ca from equilibrium in its cells to deposit it as a skeleton for new growth)

Old dogs don't learn new tricks would be my guess. People use to think the ideal parameters were = nature plus. Remember seeing vets telling beginners to autopilot their CA reactors to hit kH 10+ and CA 450 ppm? I hardly think that this is a malicious sales ploy, but rather just a vestige of old advice that hasn't gone away. I'm still telling people every day to lower their kH values...



the problem I have with this K thing is generaly people who are hard core SPS are running massive amount of Ca reactor material, one of the most popular is Carb sea which is a ballanced media. so I could see on initial set up making sure everything is deicent then checking for K maybe every couple months.. and for the record for the last year my SPS take was running I did test for K twice.. it was a little over 400 each time. this is why I don't understand how it gets depleted on a sps tank running a Ca reactor. oh and I was running IO (the only salt I will use) and had zero phosphates and nitrates.

I don't really have an answer to this, but the fact of the matter is that people do end up in situations where their potassium levels are severely depleted. I suspect manifold causes including lack of, as you said, proper maintenance in the form or routines or equipment/media, feeding, salt mix, etc.

On a side note, I read my original post and it could be taken as I am against the use of K or anthing like that.. no I am not.. if you need it you need it, but befor you run out and waist a bunch of money make sure you need it. I was pushing the importance of Mg quite a while befor people actualy started to worry about it so yes there are things we take for granted and assume we have a proper level. go in with people on a K test kit and maybe spread out the testing and only add if it is realy needed.. I am dead against the blind dosing of tanks. as it can cause major problems. K is a highly reactive material which is why you can only get it bound to another one.. I have seen a overdose of a purer form of K wipe out an entire 300+ gal sps tank, so be carfull of what you buy and how you use it.

Touche. It WILL wipe out fish and corals readily if dosed blind, that's for sure!

another point is I am not against new methods or chemicals either.. well maybe zeo as I still think it is way to much work for what it is..

Without Zeo, you are not running a reef tank - only a soulless husk of a skeletal remnant of a glass box with water and sodium chloride in it. Without Zeo, your fish do not sleep at night. Without Zeo, your corals know only what it is to long for the real ocean. Without Zeo... Without Zeo... I love Zeo....

[trilinearmipmap]

K balance in a reef tank:

Inputs: food, supplements if any, water added during water changes

Outputs: coral uptake of K, coralline uptake of K, skimmate, water removed during water changes, macroalgae (refugium) pruning

Who knows if K in a reef tank rises or falls over time.

If there is a reliable K assay then I would be interested to see what K levels are in a number of different reef tanks and whether K level decline or rise over long periods of time.

First you would need someone with some decent lab equipment to see how accurate the K test is.

If it is shown that K does tend to drop over time in most reef tanks, then I would consider measuring it and supplementing it.

[banditpowdercoat]

Without Zeo, you are not running a reef tank - only a soulless husk of a skeletal remnant of a glass box with water and sodium chloride in it. Without Zeo, your fish do not sleep at night. Without Zeo, your corals know only what it is to long for the real ocean. Without Zeo... Without Zeo... I love Zeo....


So How's that Zeo workin our for ya?

[albert_dao]

So How's that Zeo workin our for ya?

Without Zeo, I would not be running a reef tank - only a soulless husk of a skeletal remnant of a glass box with water and sodium chloride in it. Without Zeo, my fish would not sleep at night. Without Zeo, my corals would long for the real ocean. Without Zeo... Without Zeo... I love Zeo....

/endworld

[marie]

...Without Zeo, you are not running a reef tank - only a soulless husk of a skeletal remnant of a glass box with water and sodium chloride in it. Without Zeo, your fish do not sleep at night. Without Zeo, your corals know only what it is to long for the real ocean. Without Zeo... Without Zeo... I love Zeo....

I would like to get my knickers in a twist about this comment but it's too dang hot :lol:

[banditpowdercoat]

Dang, ya mean my fish ain't sleepin???? Poor fella's

And ya, My tank's got no soul, but it has a bottom :D

[StirCrazy]

Without Zeo, you are not running a reef tank - only a soulless husk of a skeletal remnant of a glass box with water and sodium chloride in it. Without Zeo, your fish do not sleep at night. Without Zeo, your corals know only what it is to long for the real ocean. Without Zeo... Without Zeo... I love Zeo....

haha, that was good, I needed a good laugh today.. got to get the energy up to rip down my 3 freshwater tanks in prep for the move.. got to find a home for the fish and plants though...

Steve

[StirCrazy]

is there any links out there to how it is used and how much K is used by corals would be interesting to read.. only problem when I find most write ups they are pretty sad and old and based off one type of coral that no self respecting SPS guy would even keep :mrgreen:

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Old dogs don't learn new tricks would be my guess. People use to think the ideal parameters were = nature plus. Remember seeing vets telling beginners to autopilot their CA reactors to hit kH 10+ and CA 450 ppm? I hardly think that this is a malicious sales ploy, but rather just a vestige of old advice that hasn't gone away. I'm still telling people every day to lower their kH values...


....

I agree not malicious but rather old dog thing, but in the same hand thoes old dogs are the ones pushing all the other chemicals touting NSW levels and striving to get them...

I will disagree with the KH though I actualy never had better color or growth as when I was sitting about 13 If I dropped below 11 my green digitata would go from a deep metalic green to a flat deep green.. so that is probably one thing this old dog will keep doing...:mrgreen: want to have fun, tune a Ca reactor to maintain 13Dkh and 380Ca :wink:

Steve