Is this good rock?

[tkhawaja]

So, I got 50 lbs of "Fiji Ultra Premium" live rock from SWC. Please have a look at some pictures of this rock here (http://www.mywhitecourt.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album08&page=2). The last five pictures on that page are the rocks I got. They have some corraline coverage, and also had a few small feather dusters, macro algae, and other critters. Since I'm new, I really have no basis for comparison. Let me know if the rock I got is worthy of the title "Ultra Premium".

[Skimmerking]

no Jayson 's rock is good ,he cures it the good way.
i have had some it 's good :mrgreen:

[StirCrazy]

yup them are som e nice chunks. usaly when they say ultra premium they are refuring to the size and shape..

STeve

[Aquattro]

usaly when they say ultra premium they are refuring to the size and shape..

STeve

Oh?? Please esplain......

[tkhawaja]

Yes please do explain. I got 5 big chunks and one little one. Being able to put the rock directly in the tank w/o worrying about an ammonia spike is nice but I think in the future I will request uncured rock. The Tonga branch I got from J & L was uncured and I very much like the bio-diversity it introduced. In some places my sand it litterally "churning" with activity. The SWC rock also seemed to have critters so I kept even the rubble. But I still did FW dip I saw bristleworms sticking out of the rocks and I didn't know if they were the good kind or not. I hope the feather dusters repopulate.

After I have all of my rock in the tank for a few months I will try to do a "review" with chronological pictuers of all the different types. Now, if only J & L gets their shipment this week.

[Quinn]

It is my understanding that all live rock, whether "cured" or not, will cause some kind of a cycle when added to tank (from coming out of the water, being only moist for X number of hours). I think it's hilarious how uncured rock is sometimes cheaper than cured rock, because to me, uncured is far better stuff.

[tkhawaja]

Hey Quinn. After my minimal experience I totally agree, that I would always try to get uncured. But uncured directly from harvesting, not uncured as in has been sitting dry for the last few weeks. I guess the cured rock involves an expense for the seller as they have to provide space and proper circulation to cure it. Probably just comes down to convenience for most people. A lot of people don't want to wait 4 - 8 weeks before they start adding fish etc.

[Quinn]

Well I think you have to wait X amount of time regardless of whether it's "cured" or not, be it two days or two months. My Kanai rock basically came straight from the ocean to me, all J&L did was weigh out 70lbs as far as I know. It cycled in about three days.

[Buccaneer]

Not enough time to kill those hitchhikers huh Quinn ? :wink:

Cheers

[Van down by the river]

I agree with teevee,
Even "cured" rock can cause ammonia spikes although they are substantially less drastic than uncured rock. Personally It is beyond me why anyone would want "KILLED", I mean"cured" rock. Unless you plan to add large amounts of rock all at once, or you want to add inverts right away, "cured" rock has few advantages IMO.

I personally would Not consider this rock Ultra Premium.

It looks like basic "cured/killed" standard Fiji rock.

Only a little coraline algae seperates this from base rock(the lowest grade).

The idea behind "cured" rock is that it is "cycled" in a dark tank to remove dead or dying organisms to prevent ammonia spikes, algae blooms, etc. Does this work?
Yes it does, unfortunately many of the desirable organisms that have survived, have also been killed in the curing process by ammonia, and poor water flow.
Too often a store receives beautiful rock, and proceed to place it in a cramped tank with inadequate filtration for the heavy bioload of new live rock as well as insufficient circulation due to the restrictive hydronamics of a aquarium full of live rock. Not to mention the often lack of proper lighting. Most stores I've seen have their live rock in a overfilled tank, with minimal water movement and little if any lighting. There is no pre-cleaning process or extra efforts to "save" any organisms. It goes straight from the box to the holding tank. People worry about fireworms, well with all the dead and decaying matter it's a breeding ground!
Yes, I know it's more work but there is allot that could be done to improve this process. Without proper care of the rock, many organisms are unnecessarily lost.

What do I suggest? If possible buy smaller amounts of "uncured" rock more often. Buy it from the shipping box or shortly after it arrives. Take it home and thoroughly rinse it in a bucket of saltwater and manually scrub/cut any "iffy" dead or fouling organisms.
cut off outer tissue of sponges as you have a better chance of it recovering. If the outer exposed sponge is dying it will foul and kill any living tissue underneath it. The same goes for most algae. If you trim back the rotting plant, the base which is often still alive will recover. I believe this way sponges, mussels,clams, crabs, shrimp,and worms that are freed from fouling and have clean oxygenated water have a much better chance of survival than being dumped in a silt choked ammonia bath.
If the rock is really smelly, use a powerhead and/or an old magnum/canister type filter and change the water a few times over 2-3 days in the bucket. This should improve even some of the worst rock. I believe your effort will be worth it.

Or you can buy expensive boulders that have sat for weeks or months in a dark stagnant aquarium full of diatoms, covered in the silt and sediment of the dead animals you were trying to get in the first place.

[Quinn]

Yup, didn't even come close to killing my hitchhikers. Saw two nudis on the glass today (probably ones I've seen before, but they're still alive, which is amazing). I think the Kanai rock is the best bang for your buck around right now, mine is really beginning to look great now that the algae has died off. I am seeing coraline growth on my base rock as well. I think some of the hitchhiking snails are breeding, because I am seeing more and more small snails of a variety of types.

[tkhawaja]

I personally would Not consider this rock Ultra Premium. It looks like basic "cured/killed" standard Fiji rock. Only a little coraline algae seperates this from base rock(the lowest grade).
Initially, I was skeptical as well. The description says "good corraline coverage". To me this looks more like minimal coverage. But, it does have some bubble macro algae ( the good kind ), caulerpa, feathre dusters, and evidence of other things. Then most people said it's good rock so I was satisfied. But once again, I'm not sure of the quality of rock they sent me.

You know what, I just looked at their posted pictures on the website. This looks equivalent to the "Aqua Cultured" rock. It has nowhere near the corralline coverage shown in their (http://www.saltwaterconnection.com/rock.html) picture. Except, there is that exception again, there were other encrusted critters on it that would been needed to be growing for months to get to that size. Unless they sold me aqua cultured rock and called it ultra premium.

Please let me know your final opinions. Then I will decide whether to make a complaint or not.

[Van down by the river]

It is better than aqua cultured, although I've seen some nice aquaculture(Walt smith) I would buy it more for it's shape and conservation value than the organisms on it.

Ultra Premium grade:

- Good coralline coverage, polyps, macro algae, sponges and other beneificial organisms.

feather dusters are a given, and could have attached to the rock from their holding tank. sponges, polyps, and macro algae other than a sprig of caulerpa seem to be missing. I know that rock varies but when I think "ultra" I think of nicer rock than this.

[StirCrazy]

Oh?? Please esplain......

first they are large "SHOW" chunks which a lot of places refur to as ultra, second they have a fair amount of coraline on them and have been totaly picked clean of nusance algae. (or at least they look like it) I have even seen J&L describe simular sounding stuff as "ultra" or "show quality" as well as other places on the island besides hillside.. there it is just all "premium" :mrgreen:

Steve

[UnderWorldAquatics]

I guess those pices of rock could be considered ultra premium, but it depends on who you ask? There is no standardized grading for live rock and super duper ultra premium fancy pancy live rock can simply be base rock with abit of coraline coverage, or a piece with a cave in it... as far as being large pieces, I think they are very average sized, when I get show size rock it is usually atleast 50+lbs each piece, some pieces are over 100lbs each. Those look like your average 7-15lb 5 pin bowling ball pieces. Also uncurred rock is not usually harvested from the ocean and sent to you, it is laid out on the beach and sprayed with high pressure water hoses to rinse it off and if you saw the stuff that they rinsed off you would cry. Not all rock is rinsed though, one type of rock that I get is called lagoon rock and it comes covered in stuff, it is also covered in mud and fine sand so its a pain to clean but it is beautiful when cleaned.

[tkhawaja]

One last time. This is what their website states:

Not every rock shippment is the same. This is usually what you will get when you order
Ultra Premium grade:

- Good coralline coverage, polyps, macro algae, sponges and other beneificial organisms.

Does the picture (http://www.mywhitecourt.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album08&page=2) match the words :question:

[Aquattro]

Can I make a suggestion? Jayson has a great reputation based on the feedback of previous customers posting here. If you have questions/concerns, call him and talk to him about it. I'm sure you'll get a satisfactory resolution.

[christyf5]

One last time. This is what their website states:

Not every rock shippment is the same. This is usually what you will get when you order
Ultra Premium grade:

- Good coralline coverage, polyps, macro algae, sponges and other beneificial organisms.

Does the picture (http://www.mywhitecourt.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album08&page=2) match the words :question:

I think so, it seems to have decent coralline coverage. I don't see any macro algae, sponges or other beneficial organisms but the pics are kind of foggy and I bet after like a week or so you'll see all sorts of things cropping up or resurrecting themselves. Its really hard to make a call unless you can see just premium grade or regular grade. When one calls something "ultra premium" you would think they're comparing it to something else and perhaps they have a scale to work with. I would be happy with it if I had ordered it. What kind of things were you expecting?

JMHO,

Christy :)

[tkhawaja]

If you have questions/concerns, call him and talk to him about it.
Since I don't have any basis for comparison, not much experience with buying LR, to what "ultra premium" is supposed to actually look like I want to be sure whether I even need to lodge a "complaint".

[tkhawaja]

What kind of things were you expecting?
Mainly, smaller pieces, more corraline coverage, and a better variety of the encrusting algae. On the balancing side I got some Caulerpa that survived. Some bubble macro algae but it looks like it's not going to make it. Have seen some pods, worms, snails, feather dusters, and a bristleworm or two mozying about. Haven't seen any sponges or polyps etc. I think I'll give it a week and see what else pops up.

[Canadian Man]

If you want smaller pieces a hammer does the trick :biggrin:

[Aquattro]

If you want smaller pieces a hammer does the trick :biggrin:

What's that? Don't have a hammer you say? Well then, just pick it up over your head and drop it in your driveway!! :razz:

[StirCrazy]

What's that? Don't have a hammer you say? Well then, just pick it up over your head and drop it in your driveway!! :razz:


Oh you must have stayed up all night to think that one up :mrgreen:

Steve

[Quinn]

I don't want to slate anyones rock (hahaha), but I don't know if I'd want to spend the money for "premium rock". My Kanai rock came with piles of stuff on it, lots of coraline (which is spreading very quickly), and large and interesting shapes, including a piece with three holes on different sides of it that meet in the middle of the rock to form tunnels. I haven't seen any rock anywhere that I thought was truly "premium" compared to the Kanai stuff.

[tkhawaja]

If you want smaller pieces a hammer does the trick :biggrin:

Bite your tongue. . ... I keep on having this vague recurring thought about accidently taking a hammer to my glittering tank. Along the same lines as this recurring thought about chopping up my hands or feet in the lawn mower. I have no clue why I keep on having these thought. I sure as heck hope it's not premonitions.

[tkhawaja]

I haven't seen any rock anywhere that I thought was truly "premium" compared to the Kanai stuff.
Well, I hope you're right. I've had an order with J & L for the last month or so. They keep on telling me their shipment got "bumped". I haven't a clue how that can be even though they tried to explain it to me yesterday. Something about the airline priority as passesngers, luggage, air mail, and only then cargo. They tell me the few flights are full with luggage. It just gives me the image of "my" Kanai rock sitting in boxes in a warehouse and not getting loaded each time their shipment gets "bumped". In fact, I'm going to write them an email right now to ask if that is what's happening.

[Delphinus]

The bigger the MO outfit, the longer the list of excuses for shipments getting bumped. It happens time and again, seen it with all of the companies as they've sprouted up from nothing and grown into huge mainstream places (and then into obscurity/memories, for some of them). The problem is that they've just gotten too popular. The reality is you can get cargo onto just about any plane you want .... but at a cost. If you want to keep your product at a price people are willing to pay then I guess you're at the mercy of the airlines (who make it a business goal to treat their customers badly) to tell you that they have some extra space available for your cargo now. So .. yes, it is plausible the shipment gets bumped and bumped and bumped if it is large enough (or often enough) to be a logistical challenge for the airlines. Hopefully it doesn't sit on the tarmac in between in each time though!

[tkhawaja]

Hopefully it doesn't sit on the tarmac in between in each time though!
I just sent that email. Let's see what their explanation is.

[Quinn]

Personally I'd like to know exactly where the Kanai rock comes from. J&L told me it was from an island near the Marshalls but there's no island called Kanai that I can tell. I'm wondering if it's Marshall rock under a different name. Either way, I am sure that once you finally get your rock, you will be pleased (and I can't believe you're putting 250lbs of rock in a 100 gallon tank).

[christyf5]

Well I'll tell you, when I first got my rock it was Fiji and it certainly didn't look like the description on the J&L website. It looked like it had been hacked off the side of a mountain and water was thrown on it. I wanted smaller pieces too but they didn't have any and Allen suggested the hammer and chisel method which was fine with me. When I got it the pieces were huge and I just stuck them in the tank since they had been out of water over night. I figured I would just deal with them after they had cycled. After the sand cloud disappeared I found I kinda liked the bigger pieces and even the way I had set them in the tank worked for me. About 2 weeks later I couldn't believe the stuff that was cropping up on the rocks. There was coralline everywhere and all sorts of stuff that sent me heading to hitchhiker FAQ sites on the net. I don't know if they say this stuff is Premium, Ultra Premium or whatever but it was some of the best rock I have seen in the few stores I have been in and I am totally happy with it.

Christy :)

[tkhawaja]

(and I can't believe you're putting 250lbs of rock in a 100 gallon tank)
Is that good or a bad, "I can't believe"? This is part of the reason I went with a custom tank. Having it 6' long gives a lot more room to play with for scaping. So far I put in one box (~75 lbs) of Tonga branch, which pretty much took up the left thid of the tank. Because of the delays I reduced the Kanai order to 1 box. Instead I put in the recent 50 lbs of Fiji. You can see (http://www.mywhitecourt.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album07&id=tank0004) that once I aquascape it properly it will take up less than a third of the tank. I'm waiting for the Kanai before I do any more aquascaping. So 1 box of Kanai will bring it up to 195 lbs. Any uninteresting pieces from all that + another 50 lbs or so will be turned into rubble to replace the bioballs and populate the refugium.

[tkhawaja]

Well Allen tells me that the rock stays in the ocean until they get confirmation. If the shipment gets bumped it goes back to the ocean.

[Quinn]

Well I know that if I put 2.5 times the water in my tank of rock, I'd have no room for corals. I have 150 lbs in a 150 gal right now and I don't need any more. Mind you I have a lot of caves and empty space, whereas if you're going with the tighter fitting look, I suppose you could get more in. Anyways if it works for you, it works for everyone else.

[StirCrazy]

Teevee I have 270lbs of rock in a 94 gal tank.. depending on the rock and how many sumps you have it can be ok.

getting back tothe rock issue here I think personaly I would rather have rock with absolutly nothing but coraline algae on it after what I have been through latily. you can always add bugs.

Steve

[tkhawaja]

I ended up talking with a wholesaler from Vancouver yesterday. He actually found this thread and called me up about it. At first I couldn't figure out how he got my phone number :eek: but my profile has my business website in it. In any case we had an interesting conversation about who buys what from where, and the different ways the LR actually ends up in Canada. He explained that you can get LR in at any time as long as you are willing to pay for it, but that would price the LR out of the market. So, to keep the product affordable sometimes shipments get bumped. Oh, and he sells ONLY to retailers NEVER to individuals directly. :cry: He told me of a few places that buy his rock but I'm not sure if I can disclose it, I'll ask him today. Now when I think of "Ultra Premium" rock this (http://www.mywhitecourt.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album08&id=Base_Rock) is what I have in mind. Here's a thumbnail:

http://www.mywhitecourt.com/gallery/albums/album08/Base_Rock.thumb.jpg

Light, porous, nice shape, and covered with all sorts of interesting things. I might be a newbie, but anyone can put two different rocks besides each other and do a comparison. And yes I know it's all just a matter of opinion depending on what you want your LR for.

[Aquattro]

The rock you show is called Jakarta rock, and the wholesaler sells to a lot of different places all over the place. I'm sure you can disclose names of retailers. All the rock in Victoria comes from him, and it is some of the nicest rock I've seen. In Victoria is costs between 12 and 17 dollars a pound, but I'm told mailand retailers sell it for about a third of that. Should be the same in Alberta.
I occasionally buy a chunk just because I like it so much, even though I have absolutely no room for more rock.

[tkhawaja]

Ok, so I got the wholesalers reply. It's Aquarium Illusions in Edmonton but we all know how expensive they are. Ofcourse, even he said they have a nice display set up. And it was Gold Aquarium and Wei (sp?) in Calgary, same there Wei is expensive. The rock is collected about 200 miles from Jakarta and he supplies fresh or semi-cured. He did state that he delivers the fresh rock to the stores but how they cure it makes a big difference in what it looks like afterwards. I also asked about collection methods but I think there was a misunderstanding and he just told me semi-cured vs. fresh. I'll be calling Gold and AI both to see what their pricing is if the J & L Kanai shipment gets bumped again.

[Delphinus]

He explained that you can get LR in at any time as long as you are willing to pay for it, but that would price the LR out of the market. So, to keep the product affordable sometimes shipments get bumped.

Isn't that what I told you?? :razz:


The reality is you can get cargo onto just about any plane you want .... but at a cost. If you want to keep your product at a price people are willing to pay then I guess you're at the mercy of the airlines

:wink:

[tkhawaja]

What? You're expecting me to take your one opinion and believe it 100%? :biggrin: I wouldn't be a very good reefer if I got my information from only one source, now would I? :mrgreen:

[LostMind]

J&L called me a few hours ago and said rock should be in around 3 or so tomorrow...

They have called me before every prior shipment date and let me know it was bumped back...

[LostMind]

tkhawaja

Just picked up my rock from J&L - 140lbs worth.

Looks pretty good, lots of colour and shapes (couple of big pieces per box, lots of smaller ones as well). Doesnt smell yet, I guess that means its fresh?

I'll post pics tonite... I managed to take 2 pics before my cam ran out of batteries....

[tkhawaja]

Doesnt smell yet, I guess that means its fresh?
That's good news for me. Maybe I won't have to cure it long. Hopefully the one extra day before it gets into the curing tub won't have much die off. Oooo, who knows maybe I can put it in the tank within a few days!

[LostMind]

I have one white thing I think was a sponge on this one rock... it is huge. Must be 6 inches wide, circular and unfortunately, very dead :(

I think this rock qualifies as porous - it has lotsa caverns and holes in it.

I tossed mine into the tank right away, I have nothing else in there anyways. Now its just a matter of fine tuning everything and hopefully this rock will cure pretty quickly.

[tkhawaja]

When i got my rock home it was a bit smelly so i've put it in a seperate container with several powerheads and the skimmer. I also put in several of my large already cured rocks. hopefully that will helps things along. I had a huge piece which had several things I was forced to cut out. I hated doing it but whatever it was definately would not have survived. Pictures will be posted once the water clears up a bit.

[kari]

I guess the problem is not being able to select the right pieces ( shape,size and what's on it) when doing mailorder rock. The rock is always expensive and when you open the box thats what you get. You win sum and loose most of them.
Sorry to here but it sounds like you are very unhappy with your order. Bindare Donedat.

My two cents;
Asthetically, rock is just rock (unless you have tons of living caulera to cleanup). Its what one plants on it that makes the tank look appealing.
Once you have your corals placed and are trying to find a small place to plant a few more frags, you won't give a rats a.. what the rock looks like. Coraline will grow given proper care and can even become a major pain cleaning the glass.

[tkhawaja]

On the contrary, I'm VERY happy with my order from J & L. The rock has very interesting shapes and all kinds of things growing on them. I was just sorry that I had to cut and scrape off some macro and corals because they would just decompose and pollute the water. I'm sure their spores / "roots" are still around and will eventually come back. The snails I ordered were double bagged for safety and then packed in foam peanuts.

[LostMind]

I have to chime in and agree with Tahir - every piece of rock I got looks just as covered as the pictures on the J&L website. Most pieces honestly have even more coverage and growth! I have several pieces of algae that are still alive and a bunch of other stuff that seems to be doing well...

Hopefully some of it survives...

I also got a couple of very nice pieces... two of the pieces I picked up actually have a hole right thru the middle and are quite large - they looks great.

Also, I am local and when I went to pick up my rock, they just loaded two boxes into my trunk - I didnt get to pick n search thru all the boxes for the perfect pieces... and I got to J&L just as they were unloading the boxes from their truck.