Concrete to bond rock?

[Delphinus]

Has anyone here used concrete to bond rocks, as opposed to say building a PVC skeletal structure, or using acrylic or fibreglass rods after drilling holes?

Noticed Ching Chai's doing it on his new tank build so got to thinking about it. He says he's using regular concrete. I thought this would make the pH of the water unpalatable for quite some time?

Or is it OK in small enough doses?

I remember a few years ago about a polymer based concrete which I think is used as a patching compound, but I couldn't find the exact brand name (I think it was discontinued). And I kind of forget the name now anyhow. :redface:

I did find another polymer based patching compound though at Home Depot, but I'm not sure how strong it would be. Maybe it's OK?

Or is it really OK just to use regular old Portland cement and just use as little as possible? (Call me a skeptic, I just don't see me getting away with it, is all..)

[Myka]

I imagine that's a poor idea since it takes so long to cure. I'm pretty sure it affects more than just the pH. I do believe it leaches something for awhile, but I'm not totally sure. I wouldn't try it.

[Veng68]

If you can get a hold of Thorite Cement (check with BASF (they are the big distributor) to find a local retailer).

This is a marine based cement and won't cause a pH change like normal cement. Google "Thorite Cement"..... there are many reef related threads about thorite.

Cheers,
Vic

[Veng68]

Sanjay Joshi used it on his big build....... check out his thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=730564&perpage=25&pagenumber=26

Cheers,
Vic

[Delphinus]

Thorite! That's the stuff I was thinking of. I thought I read it was discontinued, but I can't find any info now to confirm that. Maybe it's more that I have no idea where you can get it. HD/Rona/etc doesn't seem to have it.

[Veng68]

This is BASF the main distributor of Thorite. Give them a try.
http://www.thoroproducts.com/

Charger Corp also distributes it
http://www.chargar.com/Products/prod_mf.html

Cheers,
Vic

[justinl]

IMO it would be perfectly fine to use relatively small amounts of portland cement. amount of cement relative to volume of water will determine how rapidly the cement will change the Ph, so it has to be considered on a case-by-case basis. You would just have to keep a closer eye on Ph for about a month than most people do on their tanks; I don't think it would be too hard to buffer or perform water changes to combat it.

[fishytime]

But then we have read about some of the DIY rock, where the recipe was off a bit and it wiped out peeps tanks....

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I have done this and IMO if you have the time to let the concrete cure and leach its high PH in RO water, its much better than PVC structures or zip ties. It ends up looking the most natural. Once the concrete grows over with coraline and whatnot, the rocks look like one big piece.

I think I used portland cement. Whatever it was, nothing fancy, cheap and never had problems. I had that tank up 3 years.

[Delphinus]

How long did you let it cure for Justin?

IMO the time for me to figure this out is now, when I have a stockpile of rock in a rubbermaid. It's wet but not otherwise hugely live as it's been sitting for a while. So I can fill my tank and let it cure in place before cycling but I wonder if I'd have to dump a bottle of bacteria in to reseed the rock and let it re-cycle before I transfer any livestock.

I'll try looking for the Thorite though too in the meantime.

[xtreme]

If you do track down some Thorite let me know, I am interested in some as well.

[soapy]

If you do track down some Thorite let me know, I am interested in some as well.
Me too.

[Parker]

If the pieces are small enough I've heard of people curing the cement by throwing it in the toilet tank, several easy water changes a day.

Wouldn't work for you as I'm sure your pieces would be much to large but for people will small tanks it might work out alright.

[Delphinus]

I have located a local source of Thorite! I just spent the last 2 hours on the phone talking to all sorts of people who think I'm nuts for wanting a concrete product to use in an aquarium (yeah, tell me something I don't know! :lol:) but I FINALLY found a stash here in town!

Some background though. "Thorite" as a brand name no longer exists (which explains part of the difficulty of tracking it down). BASF, the manufacturer, has merged product lines and the new product name is "EMACO R400 Architectural". There is another product people have been using, mentioned over at reefcentral, and that is "EMACO GP" ("general purpose"). Either should be fine to use. From what I understand, the difference between R400 and GP is colour - architectural is blended at a lighter colour to better match the colour of precast concrete products, since this product's "intended purpose" is as a patching mortar (concrete repair).

There are two local suppliers in Calgary,

1) Unicon Concrete Structures
and
2) Brock White (formerly Manstar)

I just spoke to the folks at Brock White, they have in their warehouse some 46 bags of the R400. It is technically "past shelf life" which means it is not warranted for structural use anymore but it should be just fine for holding pieces of liverock together. Because of this though they have a sale price on the bags at $31.86.

Here is the contact info:

Brock White
2703 61st Av SE
(403)287-5889

They close up shop at 4:30pm so go on a lunch break or something ..

[lastlight]

Thanks for doing the legwork Tony. I'm going to abandon rods and ties and use this product. Please post your steps in putting it altogether =)

[xtreme]

Sweet, just in time for some aquascaping fun with my new tank this weekend. I'll be grabbing a bag on my way home today. Thanks so much for tracking this stuff down Tony!

[Skimmerking]

and you can put it together in the tank and it will cure in the water and have no ph effects too that is what i heard.

[xtreme]

There is no instructions on the bag but I found this info (http://www.buildingsystems.basf.com/documents/0zz_tdg.pdf).

I'm glad it is on sale, the guy there told me the regular price is 98 bucks a bag.

[Delphinus]

98 bucks, ouch.

I'm going to have to go tomorrow to pick up mine, I have no wheels today. I can't wait to get a bag though and try it out though.

[Skimmerking]

ya let me know tony i could get some too ,and they buildign the stacks in my tank.

[StirCrazy]

just a side note here, personaly I wouldn't cement your rock togeather.. just think of the mess if you had to remove some rock to get rid of a nucence algae or to catch a fish.. if you are dead set on cementing it togeather then I would recomend doing it in managable chunks so you can remove stuff if you have to.

Steve

[Bryan]

I have used with success hydraulic cement commonly found in Home Depot/ Rona in the glue section. It is a underwater concrete and comes in small milk cartons. Cures under water and I noticed no significant ph spike. But it is best to cure it outside for a day as it is stronger, just cover the rock with a wet towel

[xtreme]

Here is an arch that we managed to create over the weekend. The two joints don't look very natural but hopefully with time the coraline and what not will blend them in so they aren't as noticeable. Next attempt will be a pillar of some sort.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/xtreme1980/P7110747.jpg

[Black Phantom]

I built a bunch of rock for my tank a few years ago. Instead of stacking like you did I filled a box with marine grade sand, hollowed out the shapes I wanted and then filled them with my mix. That way you don't have to support the structure and you can make some wild shapes, caves, etc. And the finished product looked very natural.

[Richard_Dicosimo]

Hey guys. How did this workout for you guys now that it's been so many years? Held strong? Would you recommend cementing your aquascape together? Or did it cause problems?

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Delphinus]

My tank is still using rockwork that was bonded into shapes using the stuff I found.

FWIW I don't even think "Emaco Architectural R400" exists anymore either, it's called something else now (because why not change the name a bunch more times).

I *think* this is it now: http://www.jamacsales.com/dt_portfolio/basf-emaco-r-400-architectural/

I have no idea if it still sets at a neutral pH. I would presume so but would be worthwhile researching or experimenting first before going full on with it in a new tank.

[Richard_Dicosimo]

I'd love to see pics if you have any Tony?
:biggrin:

[Bryan]

I took the tank down long time ago, so really can't comment much on it long term. I have used the Reef Crest Aqua Weld and it worked not bad for cementing rocks, they have a PRO version, not sure what the difference is.

What works well is drilling a hole in the rock with a masonry bit and insert a acrylic dowel before cementing, adds a lot more support if doing overhangs etc.

[Richard_Dicosimo]

What works well is drilling a hole in the rock with a masonry bit and insert a acrylic dowel before cementing, adds a lot more support if doing overhangs etc.

Thanks for that tip. I will keep that in mind, now just to find some acrylic rod. I will have to check industrial pairs and plastics.

[albert_dao]

You could also just use a zap strap.

[Delphinus]

I don't have any good recent pictures. I did put up a before/after 7 years thing on IG about a year ago. I can't seem to link to the photo itself but the link to the photo is here: https://www.instagram.com/p/BeLw8owDHHf/

I do agree with the rod idea. It's hard to tell in the picture but the rock structure on the right is a bit of a floating over hang with a large cavernous area inside that the fish love to hang out in and sleep for the night. I did this with rocks drilled to accomodate a rod, and then zap strapped onto an acrylic base hidden under the sand that compensates for the otherwise uneven weight distribution (the overhang is pretty large).

I think I actually used fibreglass rods actually now that I think about it. You should be able to get both acrylic and fibreglass at IPP, but FWIW you can also get fibreglass rods at Canadian Tire. They're like driveway or parking lot markers for when there's lots of snow and you need to mark out the edges so you know where not to drive the snowplow. :lol: They have little reflectors on the top, just hacksaw that off.

[Richard_Dicosimo]

Love that instagram pic Tony! I love that overhang. Tank looks great.

So is a zap strap just a zip tie? I google zap strap and just looks like a zip tie. I figured the plastic would get brittle and break over time?

[Delphinus]

I haven't noticed any breaking for me yet, now you got me wondering if I should try to check on them though. *insert nervous laughter here* haha?

Mind you I did a combination of zap/zip straps/ties (sorry not sure now what to call them :lol:) and the thorite-but-not-called-thorite concrete so they're hopefully just working together.

FWIW, I always thought that they get brittle when exposed to UV over time. Anything outside in the sun for example. The stuff holding my rock work together, I did my best to try to keep out of visibility, so by extension there's not a lot of light hitting them. I suppose I'm kinda hoping for the best there I guess. But it's 2019 now and the tank got water in 2011 so 8 years in, I guess even if they broke today I could still say they held up a long time.

As an aside ... damn, 8 years? Where did those years go?!

[Richard_Dicosimo]

The time flys away. In the last 10 years since I shut my last tank down life couldn't have changed more for me.

It's nice that you can look back over those 8 years and see the progression ofyour tank. And just think after 8 years, if the zip ties broke, and the concrete failed.... the coraline will have replaced them.