Moorish Idol and SPS

[seanoman]

We've had a Moorish Idol in our tank for a couple of months now and until recently it has been a model citizen. He is accepting frozen mysis and krill and absolutely loves nori. But lately it seems to have developed a liking to sps polyps...has anyone else experienced this before. I can't seem to find much information about them eating sps, it just says that they may eat zoas and pick at lps.
I'd hate to have to get rid of it, but the corals have to come first!

Thanks

[my2rotties]

For him to be eating anything, even corals is a miracle. Wish you were closer... I would buy him from you.

[seanoman]

We were both really excited to see it feeding on everything too...that is until he found our coral polyps.

[my2rotties]

I totally understand. That really sucks. Is he doing a lot of damage, or is he just taste testing? Perhaps this might be why they usually starve to death in captivity. I did a search and this fellow Bob Fenner says they are strictly vegetarian. Are you sure it is the MI doing the eating? However father down the page someone else says they do pick at corals... here is the link

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AcanthuroidPIX/MoorishIdolPIX/ZanclusCompF.htm

We were both really excited to see it feeding on everything too...that is until he found our coral polyps.

[marie]

I have a regal angel that eats sps polyps and the corals have never had a problem with it, unless you notice sps going into definite decline I would stick it out...an eating moorish idol seems worth a few missing polyps but then again I'm a very tolerant person

[sphelps]

They are suppose to be "somewhat" sps safe but I guess it depends. Mine ate LPS like crazy but not sps.

[Trigger Man]

I've got a Scribbled Angel that eats sps polyps as well, but it does not do any real damage (polyp extention is not as far as before the scribbled arrived), and like Marie i tolorate it. In the end it you will have to decide what you can tolerate.

[my2rotties]

Hahaaa my regal angel has developed a liking for my pipe organ coral. What can you do?



I have a regal angel that eats sps polyps and the corals have never had a problem with it, unless you notice sps going into definite decline I would stick it out...an eating moorish idol seems worth a few missing polyps but then again I'm a very tolerant person

[naesco]

I totally understand. That really sucks. Is he doing a lot of damage, or is he just taste testing? Perhaps this might be why they usually starve to death in captivity. I did a search and this fellow Bob Fenner says they are strictly vegetarian. Are you sure it is the MI doing the eating? However father down the page someone else says they do pick at corals... here is the link

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AcanthuroidPIX/MoorishIdolPIX/ZanclusCompF.htm

Actually, they are omnivores and that is the problem. They are almost impossible to keep and I am surprised that a LFS is importing them. We do not yet know what is missing from their diet that makes them so difficult to keep.

The quote below summarizes everything.

{{I would steer clear of this fish. While it may be "eating like crazy", whether it's eating enough of the right things is most likely a different story. A VAST majority of Moorish Idols do not survive more than a few days or weeks in captivity. Of the ones that do, and snare a hopeful buyer like yourself, another 95% percent of those are dead within a month or two.
It will in all Likelihood not bother your clams, but in all Likelihood it will not be alive in your tank in 6 months either.
This is one of those fish that should NOT be collected for the trade to begin with, and is best left in the ocean.
Cheers[[

[atc]

I have one that eats like a pig, but he does goes for zoas once in awhile. Try putting the " angel formula frozen cubes " on a clip. I found that as long as there's food in the tank to nibble at, they ignore the zoas. good luck


We've had a Moorish Idol in our tank for a couple of months now and until recently it has been a model citizen. He is accepting frozen mysis and krill and absolutely loves nori. But lately it seems to have developed a liking to sps polyps...has anyone else experienced this before. I can't seem to find much information about them eating sps, it just says that they may eat zoas and pick at lps.
I'd hate to have to get rid of it, but the corals have to come first!

Thanks

[my2rotties]

I very often see them at a few LFS...

Actually, they are omnivores and that is the problem. They are almost impossible to keep and I am surprised that a LFS is importing them. We do not yet know what is missing from their diet that makes them so difficult to keep.

The quote below summarizes everything.

{{I would steer clear of this fish. While it may be "eating like crazy", whether it's eating enough of the right things is most likely a different story. A VAST majority of Moorish Idols do not survive more than a few days or weeks in captivity. Of the ones that do, and snare a hopeful buyer like yourself, another 95% percent of those are dead within a month or two.
It will in all Likelihood not bother your clams, but in all Likelihood it will not be alive in your tank in 6 months either.
This is one of those fish that should NOT be collected for the trade to begin with, and is best left in the ocean.
Cheers[[

[naesco]

I very often see them at a few LFS...

You need to consider giving them a talking to the next time you visit.

Loser LFS import them, knowing they are almost impossible to keep and sell them to unsuspecting newbies.

[my2rotties]

I don't really think I am in any position to tell a store what to stock or not to stock. I don't think what I said would matter, as the fish are there on special order... When I have mentioned the MI I am quickly told they are hard to keep and they don't usually live. I don't think a store would bring them in without special order due to low survival rates and they do not want to lose money themselves. However, what do I know?:wink:

You need to consider giving them a talking to the next time you visit.

Loser LFS import them, knowing they are almost impossible to keep and sell them to unsuspecting newbies.

[naesco]

I agree with you.
If an experienced reefer wants to order a Moorish Idol, I have no problem with a LFS special order bringing one in.

I have a big problem with loser LFS stocking Moorish Idol and selling them to unsuspecting newbies, though

[Drock169]

I've had my moorish idol for about 7 months, mine also eats SPS polyps, zoanthids, cespitularia, but doesnt eat LPS or gorg's yet. I've been buying zoanthid colonies to feed mine as well as culturing sponge in my sump. From what I read sponge is an important part of their diet. Mine also eats pellets, mysis, and nori. He quite thick now, probably around 5".

[Edmonton Eskimo]

some fish are better left in the ocean. This fish is at the top of that list:(

[sphelps]

I had my Moorish idol for over a year before I sold the tank, eating nothing but standard frozen foods. I believe the idols from Hawaii are suppose to be much better in captivity than those from other places like Indo.

I've also had a variety of sps picking fish, the only time you run into major problems is when they target a single colony as appose to spreading it out, which will likely happen once or twice. If you'll be devastated with a loss or two best to save yourself the grief and give it up or make a new home for him :wink:

[my2rotties]

I personally have never seen one up for sale. They are always sold and I am always told they hardly ever make it... They are beautiful, but even that is not quite enough for me to chance ordering one. If fish are in stock, it is one thing to try, but to have one pulled from the ocean on my behalf is not right for me to do. Even if they are in stock, I would have to do miles of research, which I did do for my Regal angel whom is happy and healthy.

I agree with you.
If an experienced reefer wants to order a Moorish Idol, I have no problem with a LFS special order bringing one in.

I have a big problem with loser LFS stocking Moorish Idol and selling them to unsuspecting newbies, though

[seanoman]

Just so you all know, this was not an impulse buy for us either. We know the history of this fish and that they are supposed to be really hard to keep. There is an LFS that stocks these fish on a somewhat regular basis and before we bought it, we had a good long talk with the employees there. Whomever they get the MI's from, they have had fairly good success in keeping them healthy and eating.
The fish was eating at the store before we even took it home. I should also mention that the employees at the store were not willing to just sell it to anyone, they made sure that they asked us how long our tank had been up and running, and how big it was and who it would be housed with. He was the last one available as the others had been sold and he was missing part of his top fin and had no streamer. Since introducing him to our tank, both his fin and streamer have fully recovered and he is nice and chubby now. I wouldn't call us successful at keeping him yet though as it has only been a couple of months but I think we're off to a good start.
We're not ready to pull him quite yet and are keeping a close eye one him. I would hate to have to give him up.
Thanks to everyone for there help so far!

[my2rotties]

I personally think it is totally awesome that you have kept one of these guys!!! I think two months is great and perhaps he is nipping at corals to get the nutrition that he is needing. Since you posted about yours, I did some research, and see a connection between the ones that survive for the longer term with coral nipping. Many of the other fish that did not survive lived in tanks without many SPS and LPS.

I have a regal angel that is thriving in my display, but he trashed my organ pipe corals, and does nip at other things. He is even growing at a fairly fast rate. I see him sampling a lot of things in my tank, and he loves sponges and tunicates as well. However he really liked the organ pipe more so then anything else. I have PMd you a couple of times asking questions about the fish you have and the success you have had in keeping them. I find you are a wealth of knowledge and commend you on keeping this fish.

I guess you might have to buy a few more corals to keep him happy, but I doubt he will do that much damage. My regal trashed the pipe organ pretty good but anything else is faring well.

Do you have any pictures of your MI?

Just so you all know, this was not an impulse buy for us either. We know the history of this fish and that they are supposed to be really hard to keep. There is an LFS that stocks these fish on a somewhat regular basis and before we bought it, we had a good long talk with the employees there. Whomever they get the MI's from, they have had fairly good success in keeping them healthy and eating.
The fish was eating at the store before we even took it home. I should also mention that the employees at the store were not willing to just sell it to anyone, they made sure that they asked us how long our tank had been up and running, and how big it was and who it would be housed with. He was the last one available as the others had been sold and he was missing part of his top fin and had no streamer. Since introducing him to our tank, both his fin and streamer have fully recovered and he is nice and chubby now. I wouldn't call us successful at keeping him yet though as it has only been a couple of months but I think we're off to a good start.
We're not ready to pull him quite yet and are keeping a close eye one him. I would hate to have to give him up.
Thanks to everyone for there help so far!

[seanoman]

Thanks for the encouragement!
I do feel that it's really important to do your research before you buy a fish and know what you are getting yourself into and as a hobbyist I feel that it's my responsibility to do so. I know MI's are controversial fish and usually start a debate so I was hesistant to start this thread but I'm glad to hear that there are several others out there who are keeping them successfully as well and I appreciate all the advice.

[my2rotties]

True enough but this person is an experienced reefer and has had great success with his fish. Plus this thread is not about red list fish... he is wondering if it is normal for his MI to nip at corals. Many people are hesitant to post about certain species of fish due to the controversy attached to keeping them. How do we learn from others when they do not want to post their experiences? How do we learn the actually survival rates and success rates if people do not post?

Perhaps some people are lucky, or perhaps they are doing something they do not even have a clue they are doing to keep certain species long term. I think the posts about certain species and how they are kept may just help us narrow down a missing link

Maybe fish that do nip corals are seeking certain nutrients they are not getting in prepared diets in general. I know people take coral calcium as a supplement and perhaps these fish are looking for such things in their own diets. Most animals will eat things they normally do not eat, if they are lacking key nutrients...

My Regal angel eats anything I throw into the tank at feeding time, but still will nip corals, zoas, my pipe organ and many other things I wish he would not eat. However, he is FAT and healthy so it is a small price to pay in order to keep a red list fish thriving within my display. He does not do enough damage to kill anything so far. If he does, too bad for me, sicne his health and welfare is first and foremost.

some fish are better left in the ocean. This fish is at the top of that list:(

[Atomikk]

FWIW, I am blogging my experiences with the MI. I find it needs a LOT of space to feel comfortable, and to avoid being harrased. Once it gets established, it will get quite comfortable with all the inhabitants, and even your hands in the water.

From what I noticed is that they need to be fed a lot. I can still see mine having problems gaining weight. These fish are definitely not for newbies or intermediate reefers. Why do I say that? Because to make sure it thrives, you need to do a lot more work than just to drop a couple of flakes for it to eat.

[my2rotties]

I came across your blog when I was doing some reading on the MI... very nicely done!!!

FWIW, I am blogging my experiences with the MI. I find it needs a LOT of space to feel comfortable, and to avoid being harrased. Once it gets established, it will get quite comfortable with all the inhabitants, and even your hands in the water.

From what I noticed is that they need to be fed a lot. I can still see mine having problems gaining weight. These fish are definitely not for newbies or intermediate reefers. Why do I say that? Because to make sure it thrives, you need to do a lot more work than just to drop a couple of flakes for it to eat.

[naesco]

FWIW, I am blogging my experiences with the MI. I find it needs a LOT of space to feel comfortable, and to avoid being harrased. Once it gets established, it will get quite comfortable with all the inhabitants, and even your hands in the water.

From what I noticed is that they need to be fed a lot. I can still see mine having problems gaining weight. These fish are definitely not for newbies or intermediate reefers. Why do I say that? Because to make sure it thrives, you need to do a lot more work than just to drop a couple of flakes for it to eat.

I agree Moorish Idol are definitely not for newbies.
The problem is not just the size of tank required or the attention given to feeding by a devoted reefer.
The problem is that the feeding requirements for this species are unknown with the result that they eventually die in reefers tanks even though they are given the best of care.
If a experienced reefer, devoted to experimenting with various specialty type foods (almost a scientist) wants to keep one, go for it.
Sadly, some hobbyists though well intentioned, hope that they are the one who can successfully keep them and they too fail.
For that reason, IMO they are best left in the ocean until their feeding requirements become know through science and the efforts of experts.

[Haloreef]

Are there any "scientists" studing the feeding requirements of the Moorish Idol?

[naesco]

Are there any "scientists" studing the feeding requirements of the Moorish Idol?
They are well aware of the interest hobbyists have in the fish and I am sure there are many doing this as well as the experts in our hobby.
Wayne

[Atomikk]

I came across your blog when I was doing some reading on the MI... very nicely done!!!

Well, thank you. We appreciate all who read.

As for the MI, I constantly see it eat my sponge. And for that, I intend on finding more sponges to fit inside my tank. I too am growing them in the benthic zones in the sump, but they have not developed into sizable portions. Therefore, i will have to find some to buy.

[Edmonton Eskimo]

I think it's funny when someone considers keeping one of these for a year a success. I'm not saying every one collected dies in captivity and I don't know the exact percentage that do but I would suspect it is in the 90 plus percent. To me that is us as cocky humans thinking we run the world and taking what we wish. It's completely wrong and NONE of us should be buying these fish. To say"I bought it because it was at the store already is silly. The only reason stores keep bringing these fish in is because people buy them. I think governments need to step in and make this an illegal fish to collect and distribute. I'm not bashing any individual that buys one I'm just saying that us as supposed responsible reefkeepers need to stop purchasing these, or any fish, coral, invertebrate that has a higher than 50 percent death rate in captivity. Just my 22 cents:)

[naesco]

I think it's funny when someone considers keeping one of these for a year a success. I'm not saying every one collected dies in captivity and I don't know the exact percentage that do but I would suspect it is in the 90 plus percent. To me that is us as cocky humans thinking we run the world and taking what we wish. It's completely wrong and NONE of us should be buying these fish. To say"I bought it because it was at the store already is silly. The only reason stores keep bringing these fish in is because people buy them. I think governments need to step in and make this an illegal fish to collect and distribute. I'm not bashing any individual that buys one I'm just saying that us as supposed responsible reefkeepers need to stop purchasing these, or any fish, coral, invertebrate that has a higher than 50 percent death rate in captivity. Just my 22 cents:)

+1 with the caveat that scientists and experts should be able to bring them in on a permit basis.

[seanoman]

I appreciate the responses that everyone has had so far and I realize that everyone is entitled to there opinions, and I respect that. However, the title of the thread was not that of whether or not we as the hobbyist should be attempting to keep these fish. I would appreciate and I assume others would too, that if you wish to voice your opinions on that, that you do it in the correct thread. For example the Red List thread. I am not going to bash anybody for there opinion either way, but all I was asking when I started the thread, was what experience people have had with MI's and SPS.

Thanks again to everyone who has replied with there experiences, and I will try and keep you updated on how our MI is doing. As of so far, I have only seen damage to one small frag that I saw him picking at. So I will not be removing him from our tank as of yet. All the other corals are showing good PE, so I think It should be fine. I also saw that it seemed that he only had interest in corals that were in the corner of the tank by his normal sleeping hole. Don't know if that has anything to do with it or not, just an observation. As i have never seen him touch corals on the other side of the tank.

[naesco]

With respect, I think it is quite proper to comment either for or against.
Experienced reefers don't want to leave the wrong impression.
If only those who had success posted in answer to your post the seriously wrong impression would be left that this fish a keep able.
That is not what I personally would like newbies to read.
You may have noted that all comments for and against were polite and that is what is important.

Good Luck with your MI!

[my2rotties]

Why is it that people cannot ask for opinions of the question at hand for a change... It always has to turn into a ****ing match and it is getting real old. As much as people feel that this fish should not be caught, IT IS. Be it ethical or not, it is a reality that people can special order these fish. When they do and want to insight and experience, please give just that. Why is it people feel they have to hijack a thread and jump on their soap box?

The poster did not ask what your opinion is one the fish being collected from the ocean... he asked if anyone else has had an MI eat corals.

Hobbyists kill so many fish that are not red list fish due to inexperience and lack of knowledge... When an experienced hobbyist decides to raise the bar and try something difficult they should be entitled to do so... Even newbies that did not know better, should be allowed to ask questions, rather then get into a ****ing match.

Because these fish ARE available, people whom have kept them should not be ashamed to give any help in their successes. Perhaps if people can feel comfortable in asking questions and sharing knowledge, many of these species can be kept more successfully.

I think it's funny when someone considers keeping one of these for a year a success. I'm not saying every one collected dies in captivity and I don't know the exact percentage that do but I would suspect it is in the 90 plus percent. To me that is us as cocky humans thinking we run the world and taking what we wish. It's completely wrong and NONE of us should be buying these fish. To say"I bought it because it was at the store already is silly. The only reason stores keep bringing these fish in is because people buy them. I think governments need to step in and make this an illegal fish to collect and distribute. I'm not bashing any individual that buys one I'm just saying that us as supposed responsible reefkeepers need to stop purchasing these, or any fish, coral, invertebrate that has a higher than 50 percent death rate in captivity. Just my 22 cents:)

[Edmonton Eskimo]

okay hero. I think the original poster made his point. No one said anything that was remotely offensive or bashing to anyone so relax. To the original poster I think once a fish gets a taste for the yummy corals they won't stop. Keep it well fed and cross your fingers.

[my2rotties]

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: I can live with hero... usually it's "what a bitch"... probably what you were thinking, but might get in trouble saying it on the forums... We are all passionate about the hobby and I have have been beat down a couple of times for asking a question... now I don't ask anymore. I find this to be a negative since there is nothing to be learned from silence. Aorry if I came off as a bitch, but it is what it is.

Have a good night.:smile:

okay hero. I think the original poster made his point. No one said anything that was remotely offensive or bashing to anyone so relax. To the original poster I think once a fish gets a taste for the yummy corals they won't stop. Keep it well fed and cross your fingers.

[Edmonton Eskimo]

The way I see it is,the only dumb question is the one unasked. There will always be those who are rude or condescending but the wonderful thing is it can be ignored and the good points taken and used. Never stop asking questions because you feel like you will be bashed.

[Drock169]

Seanoman, next time your in at J&L, come find me (Derek) in the livestock area and I'll give you some sponge to start culturing in your sump. Its the same sponge that i've been feeding mine.

[Atomikk]

Drock, would you happen to know the Latin name of the sponge? Or do you have any pictures?

[Drock169]

Having trouble finding a name for it, from what i've found is that its a white finger sponge, its soft white tubes, finding a scientific name seems to be difficult,i honestly cant figure out what the scientific name is, looks like Leuconia.
if i get a chance to take a pic i will.

[Atomikk]

Having trouble finding a name for it, from what i've found is that its a white finger sponge, its soft white tubes, finding a scientific name seems to be difficult,i honestly cant figure out what the scientific name is, looks like Leuconia.
if i get a chance to take a pic i will.

yeah tanks a lot! I have to find some fairly faster growing sponge to keep the MI happy.

On a side note, I did find something interesing regarding growing sponges. There is an article that suggests to increase the levels of carbon in the tank to propell the growth of sponges. Ie, vodka dosing.

[my2rotties]

I am currently dosing my system with a product, that I am certain is vodka... but packaged as a marine nitrate destoyer...

Now that you mention it, my sponges are exploding in growth... too bad noboyd in my tank eats it. I have pink, white, yellow, blue and purple... I thought my regal angel would love it but he prefers the stuff I really wish he would not touch. I just try to turn the other way:wink:

I don't know if there is a corralation between vokda dosing and sponge growth for sure. I do however notice mine had exploded in growth.

yeah tanks a lot! I have to find some fairly faster growing sponge to keep the MI happy.

On a side note, I did find something interesing regarding growing sponges. There is an article that suggests to increase the levels of carbon in the tank to propell the growth of sponges. Ie, vodka dosing.

[Drock169]

I ran VSV for a bit and did have a fair bit of sponge growth, but also feeding products like immuvit and coral frenzy can help sponge growth.
KZ sponge power is one of the better products for sponge growth.