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michika
04-14-2009, 08:25 PM
Can we all start discussing this?

I want in on it this time around!

I'd also like to propose the following changes;

1) that you don't have to use a stock tank, you can build something, but we use a max number of gallons/liters. Proof can be provided with photos and a ruler or measuring tape.

2) encorporate any feedback that the original entrants have to offer

rocketlily
04-14-2009, 08:33 PM
No comments yet, but I want to follow along on this one.

Canuckgod420
04-14-2009, 08:37 PM
did I miss something?

What contest are we talking about?

michika
04-14-2009, 08:45 PM
This is for the Canreef Nano Contest. Here (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45249) is a link to the original one.

sphelps
04-14-2009, 09:00 PM
Shorter deadline, six months is too long for a nano IMO, and less constraints would be good. Perhaps limit total system volume and nothing else ;)

michika
04-14-2009, 10:06 PM
I like that suggestion.

So by shorter deadline, are you thinking like 3 months, 4 months?

E.g. build a tank with a budget of XXX that does not exceed a total system volume of 50g? Is that what you're thinking?

rocketlily
04-14-2009, 10:15 PM
I agree with a shorter running time, but a longer preparation, building tank time. I also don't think a Nano contest should be done during the summer due to heating issues, unless you are allowing tying in to your main system. Isn't a nano traditionally under 20 gal?

michika
04-14-2009, 10:18 PM
Depends on your definition of what the nano is. Is it just the display tank, or is it the total system volume?

What would you suggest then? 2 months for prep & build, and 2 months for the system to mature?

I personally don't care if we run it in the summer or not because I don't have heat issues. However, it is something to take into consideration.

GreenSpottedPuffer
04-14-2009, 10:27 PM
I would probably be in as long as it DOES have a budget and is say 30G and under. Otherwise its kind of pointless to have a contest with no rules, especially with no budget. And as long as I can build my own tank ;)

I think something like a month to prepare equipment and then a few months to add livestock at which point adding livestock/equipment is done and then a few more months to mature as is. Kind of like a 'trade' deadline for pro sports where after a certain point, you are competing with what you have got and no more added. Then people can actually focus on their livestock instead of changing the tank constantly. So maybe 6 months...1 month prep, 2 months of stocking and then 3 months to mature as is. Personally I would like to see two deadlines...one at a month in where no more equipment is to be added (unless something breaks and it can be replaced with the SAME thing) and then one two months later where no more livestock is added (even if something dies as that is part of the contest or the rule could be that you can replace it with the SAME species, either way would work).

We need to make these things a challenge rather than just another tank build.

And maybe a theme HAS to be given/explained from the start and stuck to or you loose points. See who can actually make an idea come to life kind of thing.

I just think the less amount of rules you have for these things, the more boring the contest gets. If there are no rules other than tank size, then its not a contest really. Its just another TOTM kind of thing. Whats the point?

rocketlily
04-14-2009, 10:33 PM
"Depends on your definition of what the nano is. Is it just the display tank, or is it the total system volume?"
Interesting point. Something that should be definately laid out in the rules very, very clearly.

"What would you suggest then? 2 months for prep & build, and 2 months for the system to mature?"
I would suggest that to start 2 months of chatter would be needed to get all the rules set first so there are no changes or special allowances needed during the contest. 2 months would probably be enough time for those wanting to do a very special build. I think though a tank needs at least 4 months to start to mature and look good.

"I personally don't care if we run it in the summer or not because I don't have heat issues. However, it is something to take into consideration."This would be totally up to those who are willing to put their time into running the contest.

GreenSpottedPuffer
04-14-2009, 10:35 PM
Depends on your definition of what the nano is. Is it just the display tank, or is it the total system volume?

What would you suggest then? 2 months for prep & build, and 2 months for the system to mature?

I personally don't care if we run it in the summer or not because I don't have heat issues. However, it is something to take into consideration.

Summer should have nothing to do with it. If you can't keep the tank going in the summer, you shouldn't be setting it up.

christyf5
04-14-2009, 10:46 PM
Ok here are my thoughts, I wasn't going to get into this originally and hey maybe I still won't, but I'll run the contest if you guys need someone to do board stuff and moderate etc.

OK here goes:

I think there should still be the main categories of stock tanks. If you guys want a custom tank category then thats easy to do, set a limit on price or just do glass only.

IMO nano tanks are less than 20gallons, thats just me.

I also think that 6 months is a good timeline. I mean really, are you guys just wanting to set these up and then take them down? Lets face it, anyone who knows what they're doing (or even not knows what they're doing) can throw a bunch of livestock into a newly setup tank, take a photo and then tear it down. Whats the point of that? I thought it was points for creativity and design as well as keeping stuff alive? Personally, I think the big challenge is keeping stuff going in a small water volume (anyone seen my caulerpa factory lately, its a freaking challenge, let me tell you).

Budgets, well I dunno, this seemed to be a contentious issue last time. I would find it much more challenging to come up with a neat theme/design on a limited budget rather than go whole hog and have scads of money to throw into this thing. I guess a larger budget than last time but not overly? Perhaps a set budget for equipment and one for livestock and not have them interchangeable?

Ok those are my thoughts. Feel free to tell me to get lost if you like. Remember I wield the ban stick though :razz: (just kidding of course!)

lorenz0
04-14-2009, 11:05 PM
I would get in on this one. last one i was going to but it would have set back my 60gal and i have been iching to get a nano going again upstairs.

I do think 6 months is a decent time line

set the rules down, i shall be waiting to hear what is going to happen

sphelps
04-14-2009, 11:14 PM
I like the idea of 3 months with another 1 month for setup. 6 months is too long. To ensure the contenders are creating sustainable systems no livestock can be added or removed in the last month.

I also think the budget is silly, all it did was cause arguments and problems. Bottom line is you don't have to spend a lot to have a nice tank, and prices vary dramatically. Contenders should still record the budget and I think people will be more impressed with a system that cost very little but still nice.

At the very least only apply a budget to the equipment (all equipment) and allow a free budget for livestock.

Also volume wise, total system volume 20 gallons or less. Any tank, custom or stock. A large percentage dropped out because of tank failure, cheap 10gallons with thin glass are bad news, I'm surprised mine is still holding. No connecting other systems, that is an unfair advantage as stability is main challenge for a nano.

Ron99
04-15-2009, 12:20 AM
Would there be a minimum size? i.e would pico tanks in the 2 to 5 gallon range qualify?

JDigital
04-15-2009, 12:39 AM
catherine... feel free to run with this one... more power to ya! :lol:

lorenz0
04-15-2009, 12:49 AM
Also volume wise, total system volume 20 gallons or less. Any tank, custom or stock. A large percentage dropped out because of tank failure, cheap 10gallons with thin glass are bad news, I'm surprised mine is still holding. No connecting other systems, that is an unfair advantage as stability is main challenge for a nano.

I think as long as the volume is the same in the contest its all good. who cares about the shape.

As for the money factor, its a contest. the whole point is to challange yourself in creating something gorgous with a budget. imo i would up the budget a bit and only have it for livestock. I think $500 on livestock should be good. Also the whole point in the 6 month deal is to let the tank mature. I know in 3 months a tank can look good, but thats from buying AAA coral.

sphelps, your tank is gorgous but at my LFS that stuff would add up really fast.

Ron99
04-15-2009, 01:07 AM
I think as long as the volume is the same in the contest its all good. who cares about the shape.

As for the money factor, its a contest. the whole point is to challange yourself in creating something gorgous with a budget. imo i would up the budget a bit and only have it for livestock. I think $500 on livestock should be good. Also the whole point in the 6 month deal is to let the tank mature. I know in 3 months a tank can look good, but thats from buying AAA coral.

sphelps, your tank is gorgous but at my LFS that stuff would add up really fast.

I think if the contest set specific volumes or tanks like the last one I would be less likely to participate (not that my participation is a deal breaker for the contest :razz:). I think it might be fun to run it more open and set a maximum volume like 20 gallons or 24 gallons etc. and see what people come up with. I have a couple pico builds in mind (have just begun one in fact) that I could enter but they are not standard tanks.

lorenz0
04-15-2009, 01:32 AM
lol see the last issue with the previous contest was adjusting your volume of the tank (not total including sump). Say if it was set at 20 gals, you could do any diamention that you can as long as it was 20gals instead of a standerd 10gal.

I guess we will just have to see how everything turns out. My next set of days off i am going to clean up my 20 tall. it has been iching for a softy tank for a while now.

GreenSpottedPuffer
04-15-2009, 01:44 AM
I think if the contest set specific volumes or tanks like the last one I would be less likely to participate (not that my participation is a deal breaker for the contest :razz:). I think it might be fun to run it more open and set a maximum volume like 20 gallons or 24 gallons etc. and see what people come up with. I have a couple pico builds in mind (have just begun one in fact) that I could enter but they are not standard tanks.

I agree.

IMO keep it simple then this time. I had all kinds of idea earlier but forget it...

Just set a max tank size, max budget (one for equipment and one for livestock) and a deadline. Keep with the monthly photos or just let people fly with their builds and post how they want like the regular build threads.

StirCrazy
04-15-2009, 03:05 AM
Ok, here are my thoughts. don't even start till fall first of all, its not about keeping a tank going during the summer, but rather lots of people who would probably compete would maybe like to have holidays and maybe move across the Provence before starting a new tank build. :mrgreen:

I think size limitations should be on display tank only, other wise you have to add sumps, skimmers, refuge, ect.. If your going to build a tank make it big enough to want it.. say a 30 gal or less. I consider anything under 30 a nano personally.

It does need a budget, but something may not need to be included. I think the cost of the tanks, should be included personally. also plumbing parts, live rock, sand, corals (actual paid price, not a generic price) fish, lights, ect...

but if some one needs a chiller maybe not have that included in the budget. this is a environmental thing, I know in my old house I needed a chiller with just PC lights, because it was insulated like junk and the front room would heat up over 18 degrees on a warm summer evening, but if you have central air you wouldn't need it.

I would like to see a very long build time, say 6 months to put water in from the start. this will allow some one to take the time and build a stand with out rushing it, or even just to figure out what there going to build and how.

I found with the current contest the short build time went buy to fast, then there were a bunch of instant tanks. with not much progression after two months with water in them. I would rather see also a two or three month cycle period. after that who knows.

now I know all the impatient people are going to hate this, but I don't want to see a bunch of instant tanks for the sake of a contest, but would rather see well thought out additions to the hobby.

Steve

Myka
04-15-2009, 03:10 AM
My ideas/comments in point form just so it's easy to read.

IMO:

~ 6 months is perfect. Anything less and it doesn't even look like a tank yet, imo.
~ Take the budget restriction off.
~ Two categories - under $300 and over $300 (or whatever $$ amount).
~ Price limitation on equipment only (livestock is so difficult to judge a fair price). Besides, it doesn't take much to have $500 of livestock in a 10g...
~ Restricted to a 20 gallon display - it IS a "nano".
~ Unlimited on sump size (if utilized) provided the system is self-contained ie not hooked up to another display tank.
~ OR limit sump to 20 gallons as well (doesn't matter if you only have 5g in it, the total volume of the sump can't be more than 20).
~ AND/OR limit refugium...? Include in the 20g limitation for the sump? So you could have a 5g fuge, and a 15g sump?
~ NOT restricted to "standard" tanks.

GreenSpottedPuffer
04-15-2009, 03:16 AM
Ok, here are my thoughts. don't even start till fall first of all, its not about keeping a tank going during the summer, but rather lots of people who would probably compete would maybe like to have holidays and maybe move across the Provence before starting a new tank build. :mrgreen:

I think size limitations should be on display tank only, other wise you have to add sumps, skimmers, refuge, ect.. If your going to build a tank make it big enough to want it.. say a 30 gal or less. I consider anything under 30 a nano personally.

It does need a budget, but something may not need to be included. I think the cost of the tanks, should be included personally. also plumbing parts, live rock, sand, corals (actual paid price, not a generic price) fish, lights, ect...

but if some one needs a chiller maybe not have that included in the budget. this is a environmental thing, I know in my old house I needed a chiller with just PC lights, because it was insulated like junk and the front room would heat up over 18 degrees on a warm summer evening, but if you have central air you wouldn't need it.

I would like to see a very long build time, say 6 months to put water in from the start. this will allow some one to take the time and build a stand with out rushing it, or even just to figure out what there going to build and how.

I found with the current contest the short build time went buy to fast, then there were a bunch of instant tanks. with not much progression after two months with water in them. I would rather see also a two or three month cycle period. after that who knows.

now I know all the impatient people are going to hate this, but I don't want to see a bunch of instant tanks for the sake of a contest, but would rather see well thought out additions to the hobby.

Steve

I like these ideas.

Maybe a list of 'exempt' equipment like chillers, heaters, or anything else that is as you said 'environmental'. I think that even the playing field but is still very fair.

I also agree about additions to the hobby instead of a bunch of temp tanks.

sphelps
04-15-2009, 03:38 AM
The problem with a livestock budget is who decides on pricing? Actual paid price, fair enough but some will pay much less than others and I for one have gotten many corals for basically nothing and on the other hand have also overpaid on occasion. I remember having to measure coral and post pics of this being done because of anonymous complaints and I know for sure having people make up whatever price they feel like will cause problems. The standard price list probably maintained the sanity to the best degree possible but as you all now it wasn't even close to real so in the end it was pretty pointless and limited people to what they can do with their tanks. For example not many people found it inefficient to use frags as it was too expensive on the budget, going with larger corals was essentially the only way to fill the tank on budget. In addition the same type of coral can vary with price dependent on coral or variation not just location. Simply too complicated and I honestly see no point.

Hardware on the other hand is pretty easy, a budget could be applied.

Restrictions are needed for the contest but apply it to something that can easily be monitored and controlled. Tank volume for sure and limit total volume, the most challenging part of a nano is the limited volume. A 100 gallon sump wold defeat the purpose.

Perhaps another restriction could be power consumption, limit the total allowable "rated" wattage of the system.

I'm not sure I get the chiller idea, a nano shouldn't need one as a fan should accommodate any heat problems. The smaller volume will also not hold in heat like a larger tank.

And 6 months just to build a nano, come on that's just a little much don't you think? One month should be plenty.

Myka
04-15-2009, 03:43 AM
I agree that one month is plenty of time to build. Or give people the option of 6 weeks if they want? But 6 months? Wow...

StirCrazy
04-15-2009, 04:01 AM
na, 6 months is good, it should be the minimum time for any tank from what I have seen happen in local LFS.

The only way a large sump will have is increasing stability and success for longevity for the tank and inhabitants. anything smaller than a 33 is a nano to a lot of people, and with a 33 or smaller MH is a very real possibility for lighting.
heck I would put MH on a 15, if I could find a small enough set up :mrgreen:

the only problem with a under/over 300 is that once you buy lights you are over

an idea might be to have a under / over 1000 on hardware, then do your preset price list with a limit on live stock but bring into account live rock and sand also. skimp on the rock and get nicer and bigger corals or fish, go heavy on the rock and you will limit the coral or fish, makes you decide and really think of what a good balance would be.

Steve

StirCrazy
04-15-2009, 04:03 AM
I agree that one month is plenty of time to build. Or give people the option of 6 weeks if they want? But 6 months? Wow...

one month is good for some one with no job, or has 100% of there free time to work on it. It also really limits creativity as you just don't have the time to do the stuff, unless your rich then you can just buy everything done. some people actualy have to save up for a bit to do something, then save again to do something else.

Steve

sphelps
04-15-2009, 04:09 AM
one month is good for some one with no job, or has 100% of there free time to work on it. It also really limits creativity as you just don't have the time to do the stuff, unless your rich then you can just buy everything done. some people actualy have to save up for a bit to do something, then save again to do something else.

Steve
I have full time job and a part time business and I built my tank in one night, a month is reasonable but sorry anyone that takes 6 months to setup a nano is just slow. And if it takes six months just to save up for hardware for a contest tank on canreef you should probably invest that money elsewhere, you don't have to spend a lot. My hardware cost $79

GreenSpottedPuffer
04-15-2009, 04:14 AM
I have full time job and a part time business and I built my tank in one night, a month is reasonable but sorry anyone that takes 6 months to setup a nano is just slow. And if it takes six months just to save up for hardware for a contest tank on canreef you should probably invest that money elsewhere, you don't have to spend a lot. My hardware cost $79

You are so ridiculous man. Between your comments here and in the other rules area likening the organizing committee to Nazi's, I refuse to enter if you are involved as I think you look to start conflict.

Livestock having a flat 'rate' or value is great.

Anyways, have fun guys! :razz:

sphelps
04-15-2009, 04:22 AM
You are so ridiculous man. Between your comments here and in the other rules area likening the organizing committee to Nazi's, I refuse to enter if you are involved as I think you look to start conflict.

Livestock having a flat 'rate' or value is great.

Anyways, have fun guys! :razz:
Sounds more like fear of loosing :lol:

Not really interested in entering the next one just trying to provide a little insight. I'm usually just looking out for others interests in general not my own. I'll be quiet now.

Cheers

GreenSpottedPuffer
04-15-2009, 04:42 AM
Sounds more like fear of loosing :lol:

Not really interested in entering the next one just trying to provide a little insight. I'm usually just looking out for others interests in general not my own. I'll be quiet now.

Cheers

No its a lot more personal than.

Myka
04-15-2009, 08:14 AM
one month is good for some one with no job, or has 100% of there free time to work on it. It also really limits creativity as you just don't have the time to do the stuff, unless your rich then you can just buy everything done. some people actualy have to save up for a bit to do something, then save again to do something else.

Steve

I dunno, doesn't really seem to take that much time. It's just a nano. You could always do a 5 gal instead of a bigger one, which is what I would do. Saves time and money. :)

Binare
04-15-2009, 01:59 PM
Why not take a page out of nano-reefs, look at what they are doing contest wise. Ones like the nanocube specific custom/stock are great imo cause everyone starts off on the same level ground, it doesn't turn into a contest of who has the most money to blow... Or atleast minimizes it and turns the focus more to the build and the contents.

lorenz0
04-15-2009, 02:14 PM
I have full time job and a part time business and I built my tank in one night, a month is reasonable but sorry anyone that takes 6 months to setup a nano is just slow. And if it takes six months just to save up for hardware for a contest tank on canreef you should probably invest that money elsewhere, you don't have to spend a lot. My hardware cost $79

ok this takes the cake for the biggest douchebag comment ever posted on this site. Don't flaunt your income on this site.

I'm sorry but alot of people can't just dish out $500 in a night for a nano contest. See like i was saying last night, with what you are saying were better off re-naming the build threads as the build contests since you do not want a minimum tank size, or a budget. whats the point of a contest than? your better off just starting a thread in the normal build section.

I agree with greenspottedpuffer, if sphelps is in the contest count me out as well

michika
04-15-2009, 03:01 PM
Interesting comments....

I'm not up for running this to start. Christy if you'd like that job, I'd love to have you do it! You're fair, and funny, so its all good!

As for the other comments on what is a "nano" size. I think we should probably poll it because its really opinion there is not firm size that defines nano that I've seen. We should also probably make sure to be very clear when we vote as to if we are voting on TOTAL volume or just DISPLAY volume.

I'm not too big on starting with a stock tank. Like previously mentioned I'm wary of the initial product and concerned about even trying to drill it, etc. Again, probably should be put to a vote. If some want to use stock tanks, go for it, if you don't, all the power to you.

I also agree with the mention of two separate budgets, one for hardware and livestock. I also think we should exempt a bunch of "environmental necessities" like chillers, because not everyone needs one, and forcing something like that to come out of someone's budget is a fun-killer.

Aside from the comments about who is in/out because of others, would anyone be opposed to voting on some of the basics? Stock tank or not, total volume vs. system volume, etc.

We should also discuss a budget once we've decided on sizes, as well we should look at an entrance fee, and look for potential sponsors.

Anything else?

christyf5
04-15-2009, 03:31 PM
Holey crap people, can I remind you this is JUST an internet board??? Whew.

Its likely I'm going to kick myself later but yes I will run this one.

I think we'll have several categories to suit everyone, why not a free for all category for those of us that have money to burn. In this case it will be about system design as well as tank design.

Binare is right, IMO the whole idea behind the contest originally was that everyone started on a level playing ground. It was what you could do with a 10g stock tank that was supposed to be impressive. I think whats happening here is that people are wanting to be more creative with the technical side of things not the biological and I can certainly get behind that.

But I still think the whole point of the "contest" is being overlooked, the point was how "creative" you could get with limited funds.

So here is what I think:

see what interest there is in running the following categories:

*stock 5.5 (limited budget) rated on aquascaping, contents and creativity

*stock 10 (limited budget) rated as above

*stock 5.5 (unlimited budget) rated as above

*stock 10 (unlimited budget) rated as above

* custom (limited budget) aquascaping contents creativity, tank design

*custom (no budget limits) aquascaping, contents, creativity, system design

Tanks can be no larger than 20 gallons. For the stock categories, if a sump is wanted the sump can be no larger than the stock tank.

This way I think we keep the integrity of the contest (which to me is to do the best you can with a stock tank and limited budget) as well as satisfy those that want to go beyond that.

I still think the 6 months should stick. Regardless of whether you have a million dollars and can afford all the bits and pieces you need, not everyone is an acrylic engineer or has the time to spend putting together their tank in a 24 hour period. I say 2 months to plan, get your stuff together and get water in it. Then 4 months to fruition.

Anyway just my two cents. I can start a poll for interest in the above categories I've laid out if its warranted.

michika
04-15-2009, 03:36 PM
Thank you Christy! I would run this, or help you run it, but I want to participate.

I am hoping for a total system volume of say 30-50g, and then maybe a limitation on the display tank. So displays no larger the 20g sounds good to me

Just to clarify, lets say I have a 20g tank and I add on an external overflow, that would push me over the 20g limit correct?

I like what you've laid out, and I think with just a few additions, budget rules, etc. we'll be good to go.

christyf5
04-15-2009, 03:42 PM
Nope external overflows are fine, I know the "limitations" on drilling the smaller thinner glassed tanks (never had any success myself). As long as the tank itself is 20g or less I would imagine it would be ok, the overflow could be considered part of the sump or just another piece of equipment much like a hang on skimmer or something.

michika
04-15-2009, 03:47 PM
Sounds good.

I guess we should find out how JDigital felt about the entry fees. Were they enough, etc.

What else do we need?
- Start & end dates
- Contestants
- Sticky with rules
- Sponsors?
- Prizes?
- Winning lotto tickets

Rbacchiega
04-15-2009, 03:52 PM
I'll throw in my 2 cents here and then wait for the contest to actually start.

I personally have fun building tanks on a buget, but I really like the various categories that Christy has posted.
I also agree with the "no livestock (coral/fish/invert etc) to be added or removed by a certain date" thing....that's a rad Idea.

I think if we go total system volume up to 50 gallons with a Display NO LARGER than 20 that'd be cool. I've got 10 gallons out the wazzoo, so will be using a stock 10 anyways, but I'd love to see what people come up with.

Anyways, count me in for the 10 gallon on a budget one.

Binare
04-15-2009, 04:13 PM
Only question I'd consider is... Will there be enough interest/entries to warrant so many categories? If people are paying an entrance and only 1 or 2 people are in a certain category... How would that work?

As a side not Ill enter regardless, think it'll be fun and as a bonus: drive my wife nuts with another tank scheme ;)

Mentioned only as something to consider.

christyf5
04-15-2009, 04:19 PM
well I think I'd run a poll first to see if there is interest in each category but yeah, I think even if theres only a couple per category why not? :wink:

michika
04-15-2009, 04:28 PM
I'm probably down for the custom stuff on a budget. I need to get planning.

Ron99
04-15-2009, 04:36 PM
I like your suggestions Christy but agree it may be to many categories. Maybe cut it down to:

1. Stock tanks with a budget
2. Stock tanks with unlimited budget
3. Custom tanks with a budget
2. Custom tanks with unlimited budget

That may be a bit more manageable. Otherwise the other suggested rules etc. look good to me.

sphelps
04-15-2009, 04:53 PM
ok this takes the cake for the biggest douchebag comment ever posted on this site. Don't flaunt your income on this site.

I'm sorry but alot of people can't just dish out $500 in a night for a nano contest. See like i was saying last night, with what you are saying were better off re-naming the build threads as the build contests since you do not want a minimum tank size, or a budget. whats the point of a contest than? your better off just starting a thread in the normal build section.

I agree with greenspottedpuffer, if sphelps is in the contest count me out as well
Well I'm not sure why you all feel this way, all I'm saying is I think 6 months is too long for build time and that you don't have to spend a lot on hardware or anything for that matter. Never did I say anything about $500 or my income which is actually pretty minimum which explains why I have to work two jobs, not that that's anyone's concern. I'm not sure why everyone is being so sensitive to a different opinion, I don't think a livestock budget works, that's it. Big deal, move on. It's also mostly based on exactly what happened with the last contest, almost every dispute was over livestock pricing. I already said other constraints are needed and gave examples.

michika
04-15-2009, 05:33 PM
shelphs,

What would you recommend as a budget then? Just hardware budget and an unlimited budget for livestock?

A dissenting opinion shouldn't be such a cause for alarm or outcry. I for one am pleased to hear to feedback and suggestions, regardless of what it is. If you want to participate or not because someone else, that is your choice, and your opinion.

Myka
04-15-2009, 05:44 PM
Oh I like the idea to set a date where you can't add/remove stuff!! Good idea!!

I like the unlimited budget, at least for livestock because it reduces disputes, and because I want to see some stellar nanos with AAA corals in them in the end!!! :D I don't mind a hardware budget though...that's kinda fun to stick to a budget.

I also like Ron 99's suggestion of categories:

1. Stock tanks with a budget
2. Stock tanks with unlimited budget
3. Custom tanks with a budget
2. Custom tanks with unlimited budget

Of course I still think all categories should be limited to 20 gallon display which seems to be the general consenus on here anyway.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt (har har) as I'm not sure if I will have the space (in the house) to participate.

sphelps
04-15-2009, 06:02 PM
Yes a budget on hardware works, introduces a challenge and is easily monitored and controlled. If I thought a livestock budget would actually work I would be all for it, problem is there are too many variables and to me it just seems more fair and easier to simply eliminate it. The worst case is someone will spend a ridiculous amount of money on super rare livestock but the majority of people don't like or notice the rare stuff anyway so I see no advantage. You'll also see much more variety in livestock as much more freedom will be available.

My recommendations are:


Hardware - limited budget
Livestock - unlimited budget
Total system volume - limited to 20 gallons or whatever most would prefer
1 month preparation build time
3-6 months additional contest time, again whatever most prefer
People wanting extra build time can use addition contest time (no restriction on when tank has to be wet)
Absolutely no changes within last month (proves sustainability)


We also didn't get too many people in the last contest so multiple categories, which although would be nice, probably won't really work. The more people actually competing against each other the better.

michika
04-15-2009, 06:32 PM
That makes lots of sense, and I'm all for that. Thank you for the recommendations.

Start dates? I'm thinking May 1st, or June 1st?

Ron99
04-15-2009, 06:59 PM
Lot's of good suggestions and discussion. After considering all the input I think the following would be good:

1. Two Categories; stock tanks and custom tanks
2. Hardware - limited budget of maybe $300 to $400
3. Livestock - unlimited budget (hey if somebody wants to blow $2000 on livestock more power to them. I think the contest should be based more on the whole package rather than what fancy corals or rare fish somebody has)
4. Display limited to 20 gallons with a max 20 gallon sump
5. Total of 6 months contest time with no set wet deadline (to give people as much time as they need for the build) and no changes in the last month (other than water changes of course).

As for start date maybe June 1st. I know my schedule is pretty full and life seems to be busy for many people so that gives a bit more time to plan for those wanting to do a custom build.

YMMV but I think the above maybe incorporates many of the opinions and suggestions made so far.

sphelps
04-15-2009, 07:11 PM
Any thoughts on monthly FTSs and updates? I think expecting people to post on certain day every month is a little far fetched since some of us aren't always around. Also with summer coming this becomes even more difficult. Some ideas:


No actual picture requirements however people obviously realize this is a contest and to win they have to show something. Could also add a prize for best documentation/build thread.
Monthly FTS required but not date specific, just sometime every month or even with in the first two weeks.
FTS required whenever something is added or updated.

rocketlily
04-15-2009, 07:13 PM
Just for clarification, is the 20 gal sump mentioned above
20 gal total volume or
20 gal water circulating through the sump

JDigital
04-15-2009, 07:27 PM
Any thoughts on monthly FTSs and updates? I think expecting people to post on certain day every month is a little far fetched since some of us aren't always around. Also with summer coming this becomes even more difficult. Some ideas:


No actual picture requirements however people obviously realize this is a contest and to win they have to show something. Could also add a prize for best documentation/build thread.
Monthly FTS required but not date specific, just sometime every month or even with in the first two weeks.
FTS required whenever something is added or updated.


I won't be in this contest, but this is something I agree with. This caused a huge headache in the first contest, and should be considered.

rstar
04-15-2009, 07:37 PM
I just wanted to throw an idea out there. Why not assign a points value to things like budget. You can spend however much you want. Just assign a point value to types of corals. Ideally the goal would be to have the lesser point value in the coral category, which will net the most points (if that makes ANY sense). So it doesnt matter what you paid for the coral or how big it is. Everyone will be competing based on points and not the actual corals. You can assign point values to all categories. creativity, complexity, volume, anything. You just have the judges awards points for those aspects. Give a percentage of point towoards a public vote at the end and the person with the most points in the end wins.

EDIT: Explain what i mean further.

Have categories be out of 10
Complexity you could have a max of 10 point
Budget a max of say 30 points (in this category species of coral will have their own value like sps 5 softied 2 lps 3) Tally the point out and give a score out of 30 so the tank with the lowest and nicest score has a higher mark out of 30 versus a tank full to the brim with all the most expensive corals having the lower score. People will then compete for a modest but REALLY nice tank)
Creativity out of say 30

Make the total allowable score out of one hundred. I think this would b a fair way of doing it.

michika
04-15-2009, 07:56 PM
No actual picture requirements however people obviously realize this is a contest and to win they have to show something. Could also add a prize for best documentation/build thread.
Monthly FTS required but not date specific, just sometime every month or even with in the first two weeks.
FTS required whenever something is added or updated.


I agree with this too.

sphelps
04-15-2009, 08:21 PM
I agree with this too.
Any insight on which option might be best?

rstar, I like the point system idea however it's still similar to money. Assigning points to livestock will probably be just as complicated as assigning a dollar value. I could see a similar system being used for deciding on an ultimate winner. Essentially have one contest category but at the end have multiple polls setup for voting on different aspects of each tank. Then award points to each contender based on how they place in each aspect. Kind of like Super Mario Cart :biggrin:
Reading your post again it seems we actually might be on the same page here?

rstar
04-15-2009, 08:30 PM
Any insight on which option might be best?

rstar, I like the point system idea however it's still similar to money. Assigning points to livestock will probably be just as complicated as assigning a dollar value. I could see a similar system being used for deciding on an ultimate winner. Essentially have one contest category but at the end have multiple polls setup for voting on different aspects of each tank. Then award points to each contender based on how they place in each aspect. Kind of like Super Mario Cart :biggrin:
Reading your post again it seems we actually might be on the same page here?

Yes ecentially we are! However do think it could work for budget as well. As long as the points are very broad. Not down to each peice but each group of corals. SPS as a whole group would be worth say 5 point because its relatively easy to find really nice sps. softies could be worth 2 as its not quite as easy to find the really amazing softies. and lps would be inbetween. This would alow people to spend whatever they want but also keep themselves in check as to not rack up all their point. Itll keep people looking for the real gems to add to their tanks. I dont think it could work if you got species specific, it would have to stay broad.

Mario cart was just what i was thinking. I do think however most of the point would have to awarded via a set group of invited judges as if you leave most of the points awarding to the public you will NEVER get an unbiased vote. however you could hold a public vote and use a percentage as point. this would keep the contest fair and not just a "popularity" vote.

michika
04-15-2009, 09:09 PM
Any insight on which option might be best?

All three!

I would say one FTS a month, and it must be done within the first two weeks of the month. I would say make shots for additions as well. Then like you mentioned people who want to expand upon their build with additional photos can, and have that play into a best documentation/build thread award like you mentioned.

wolf_bluejay
04-15-2009, 11:08 PM
I while ago there was a thread on having a 20 gal contest that never ended up really going anywhere. But the "point" idea I think is a good one.

This allows for the guy that wants to spend silly but acutally has a nice tank to be compared to the guy who does nice DIY work on the cheap. As well, it removes the need to be so "a&^ retentive" about the budget, and not argue about the details.
I'm interesed in joining in, as I would love to build a 20gal just for the heck of it. And the "get more point for being cheaper" allows for me to post up MY cost out of pocket using my extra equipment, frags and scraps kicking around from my 220, and a guess at what all the materials would actually be worth to by.
IE, more fun and less mindless bickering.


PS. finally something to use my old prism skimmer for. :mrgreen: For some reason it just doesn't seem to cut it on my 220 gal

sphelps
04-15-2009, 11:34 PM
I'll bring up one more issue regarding the budget for discussion. When it comes to a hardware budget the problem is some of us are good at the whole DIY and can build a complete system for fairly cheap while others are not and some just don't want to. For instance if someone wanted to use a full nano package in a box, is that allowed? Or for a custom they may have to hire someone to build it which could also be quiet expensive. This could potentially be solved with 2 categories but again not sure on the amount of interest. Thoughts?

rstar
04-16-2009, 12:18 AM
I'll bring up one more issue regarding the budget for discussion. When it comes to a hardware budget the problem is some of us are good at the whole DIY and can build a complete system for fairly cheap while others are not and some just don't want to. For instance if someone wanted to use a full nano package in a box, is that allowed? Or for a custom they may have to hire someone to build it which could also be quiet expensive. This could potentially be solved with 2 categories but again not sure on the amount of interest. Thoughts?

I think using a point system would allow for this, in the creativity and complexity categories of point awarding!

sphelps
04-16-2009, 01:35 AM
I think using a point system would allow for this, in the creativity and complexity categories of point awarding!
But will this work as an actual constraint or just for judging?

StirCrazy
04-16-2009, 03:54 AM
ok a couple questions, first.. Can there be an up to 28 gal display PPPpllllleeeeassseeee:mrgreen: I don't want to have to buy another tank and I have two 28's sitting in storage LOL

Also this one is a question about the budget. why do we have a hard ware budget and no livestock one, why not no hardware budget and only a live stock one. IMHO what people see is the tank and whats in it. To me it would make sense to have restrictions like , no more than 1 fish for every 5 gal, no more than 1lb of live rock for every 2 or 3 gal, ect.. give people limits in what they can work with and see what they come up with. with budgits there is always a work around. say I buy a broken pump for 5 bucks and it needs some electrical repair myself.. I just got a 200 buck pump for 5 bucks.. same goes for a skimmer, get a brokin one for cheep, fix it your self..... but if you tell me I can only have a skimmer, a single primary light with suplamental lighting, 15lbs of live rock, 3 fish, 6 corals, and 3 total pumps. It will make me do some serious thinking about what I want for my tank and how to do it. IMHO this is the best way to get creativity out of people.. give them stuff to work with and see how they put it togeather.

Personally if I did a 20 gal, it would be a SPS dominated tank and it would have MH/T5 lighting and a big skimmer. and either a kalk reactor or maybe even a dosing set up.

My thinking is I am not going to set up a tank just for the sake of setting one up. it is going to be done right, if that means I need to buy some stuff so be it but I am not going to cheap out and cut corners for the sake of a contest. we owe more than that to the eventual inhabitants we are going to have.

but entering this contest I am hoping that people are looking at it as a way to have fun with a build they already would have been doing and not just setting up a disposable tank for the sake of competing.

for the record, I can build my own skimmer, lights, reactor, ect.. got the acrylic tubing and the tools to do it, but.. even doing it your self there is no way you can buy the parts for under 300,

Steve

marie
04-16-2009, 06:27 AM
How about a category for those of us that are not only complete DIY idiots but think all those fancy, shmancy gadgets are not needed. Just a tank, a heater, some kind of light, a powerhead or 2 and an unlimited livestock budget. No drilling, no sump, no skimmer, you have a month (or 2) to put the livestock in and then you have to keep it all alive for 6 months... :mrgreen:

Myka
04-16-2009, 06:30 AM
How about a category for those of us that are not only complete DIY idiots but think all those fancy, shmancy gadgets are not needed. Just a tank, a heater, some kind of light, a powerhead or 2 and an unlimited livestock budget. No drilling, no sump, no skimmer, you have a month (or 2) to put the livestock in and then you have to keep it all alive for 6 months... :mrgreen:

Isn't that what the last one was essentially?

marie
04-16-2009, 06:35 AM
Isn't that what the last one was essentially?

After all the fighting and bickering it was hard to tell what the last one was :razz:

but no I mean no budget on anything just a simple box of water, the key is once livestock is added the contest essentially starts and it is about who can keep everything alive and with visible growth for the full 6 months

StirCrazy
04-16-2009, 02:51 PM
it is about who can keep everything alive and with visible growth for the full 6 months

so what happens after the 6 months, you just flush everything. you make it sound like your going to do as basic as you can to make it challenging to keep things alive for 6 months, I hope that isn't what you meant at all as that would be a very irresponsible way to run it.

I do agree that they are overboard on equipment, I wouldn't even have a category for equipment at all and get away with the equipment side of the budget. this would allow people to create there opinion of what is the best environment for there livestock.

Steve

marie
04-16-2009, 04:03 PM
so what happens after the 6 months, you just flush everything. you make it sound like your going to do as basic as you can to make it challenging to keep things alive for 6 months, I hope that isn't what you meant at all as that would be a very irresponsible way to run it.
...
Steve

:lol: Well us DIY idiots gotta do what we gotta do ya know...but I wouldn't flush it, it would plug up the toilet. Maybe fertilize the garden... or I know I could feed it all to my dog... then I could show everyone the real meaning of "Barf" :lol:

StirCrazy
04-16-2009, 04:51 PM
:lol: Well us DIY idiots gotta do what we gotta do ya know...but I wouldn't flush it, it would plug up the toilet. Maybe fertilize the garden... or I know I could feed it all to my dog... then I could show everyone the real meaning of "Barf" :lol:

no, no you mis understood, I wasn't saying that DIY is the way to go for this, I am saying that a budgit on hardware would give an unfair advantage for the guys that can DIY. that is why I suport having a live stock budget over a hardware. I would rather see people put some quality hardware on there tanks, than just rig some getto equipment up, this would increase the quality and longjevity of the system. In the same way I would also suport and unlimited sump size, I would rather see the extra water volume to create a more stable enviorment for the critters.

Lets face it if some one sets up a tiny tank they will get tired of the increased amount of maintenance after a while, daily dosing, or waterchanges, multiple evaporation top offs each day to keep salinity stable, ect.. more ware volume makes this a slower process, and a larger sump allows you to put equipment in the reduce work.

now if you wanted to buy a proflux you could do small and stable, but now your adding 8 or 900 to your hardware budget..

Steve

Ron99
04-16-2009, 05:10 PM
My interest isn't in doing a tank just for the contest only to take it down later. I don't have space for that :-) I am wanting to do a pico for my desk anyhow and would enter that in the contest but it is something I would do anyhow and would want to do right. Budget or not, it doesn't really matter as I don't want to get into ridiculous spending on it anyhow.

You don't necessarily need a Profilux for top offs etc. A simpler ATO can be had for alot less money and it is not hard to DIY an ATO for alot less than an off the shelf one.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Overall, I think a more open contest would produce a wider variety of results and be more interesting. Set major criteria like max volume, possibly budgets for hardware and/or livestock etc. and see what people come up with. Variety is the spice of life after all.

sphelps
04-16-2009, 06:48 PM
From some of the recent input another option could be total unlimited budget with a limited system volume. You get a total of six months, however the last three months are hands off, no livestock or hardware changes. The main challenge in the contest would be developing a sustainable system which is fair for both DIY'ers and purchasers. I think the total system volume would however have to be around 20 gallons or less though, once you start going bigger it gets too easy. The good thing about this is that some will think twice about expensive livestock as there's a bigger risk involved, removal of any livestock after the initial three months will result in immediate disqualification.

In the end you can't satisfy everyone, the person running this contest will have to step in with a final verdict.

StirCrazy
04-17-2009, 12:51 AM
You don't necessarily need a Profilux for top offs etc. A simpler ATO can be had for alot less money and it is not hard to DIY an ATO for alot less than an off the shelf one.



wasn't talking about just top off, but for dosing all your nutrents also, a proflux with a 4 pump doser would give you a very constant and stable water chemistry.

Steve

StirCrazy
04-17-2009, 12:56 AM
From some of the recent input another option could be total unlimited budget with a limited system volume.

unlimited is a little extream. much simpler to make a couple catagories.

25 gal system volume and under

26 to 50 gal system volume and under

and 51 to 75 gal system volume and under.

then for budget if you insist on having them for hardware come up with a $/gal figure for hardware and a $/gal figure for live stock.

say 20 to 30.00/gal hardware and 15.00/ gal for livestock.

so for the under 25 you would have a total budget of 500 to 750 for hardware and 375 for live stock

for the 26 to 50 you would have 1000 to 1500 for hardware and 750 for live stock

and for the 51 to 75 you would have 1500 to 2250 for hardware and 1125 for live stock.

now these are just example for the amounts. but this would actualy allow an overall "best in show" catagory where you could do just a tank shot and proportionaly the tanks will be even.

Steve

sphelps
04-17-2009, 02:52 AM
wasn't talking about just top off, but for dosing all your nutrents also, a proflux with a 4 pump doser would give you a very constant and stable water chemistry.

Steve
I can't see anyone anyone connecting a profilux and 4 pump dosing to a nano for a contest, that's well over a thousand dollar investment. You might be looking too far into this.

StirCrazy
04-17-2009, 03:17 AM
I can't see anyone anyone connecting a profilux and 4 pump dosing to a nano for a contest, that's well over a thousand dollar investment. You might be looking too far into this.

actualy under 800.00, and I would :mrgreen: Automation = less work = me happy and wife happy when I am away :razz:

seriously though If I had the money I would put a set up like that on a 5 gal Nano.. maybe not the proflux but the stand alone doser. expecialy on a tank at work where I won't be in on the weekends.

The intention when I mentioned this was for bigger tanks say 20 gal and up.

Steve

sphelps
04-17-2009, 03:41 AM
profilux basic starter kit is around $600 plus another $600 for a 4 pump kit, so I'm assuming you're talking about a stand alone dosing kit? Either way not something you would see on a nano contest tank, however I say if someone wants to spend that much on such a tank let them, it still doesn't matter IMO. But if it's that much of a common concern just ban controllers.

Binare
04-17-2009, 03:54 AM
No offense to anyone and none intended, but isn't all the fun being slowly ripped out of the whole idea?

StirCrazy
04-17-2009, 04:00 AM
profilux basic starter kit is around $600 plus another $600 for a 4 pump kit, so I'm assuming you're talking about a stand alone dosing kit? Either way not something you would see on a nano contest tank, however I say if someone wants to spend that much on such a tank let them, it still doesn't matter IMO. But if it's that much of a common concern just ban controllers.

nope, you can get the beginner pack proflux, with a 4 pump doser, float levles, chemicles as a package for under 900

it would only be about 1K if you buy the parts seperate.

sphelps
04-17-2009, 04:18 AM
nope, you can get the beginner pack proflux, with a 4 pump doser, float levles, chemicles as a package for under 900

it would only be about 1K if you buy the parts seperate.
Quite the deal, where from?

sphelps
04-17-2009, 04:20 AM
No offense to anyone and none intended, but isn't all the fun being slowly ripped out of the whole idea?
I don't see much point for a discussion thread if you can't simply discuss. Just remember we're all friends here so if you find something offensive I'm sure it's not suppose to be :razz:

StirCrazy
04-17-2009, 04:23 AM
Quite the deal, where from?

I e-mailed proflux and asked them if they had a package that would meet my needs. he sent me back a price. only problem is my tank is on hold till this fall now as I am noving my family to kamloops at the end of June then I am living in my 30 foot trailer till sept when I retire from the Military. then I can start planning a new tank. thinking a large in wall so you can see it from the home theater room, but have a roll down shade to block it off when I am watching a movie.

Steve

Binare
04-17-2009, 04:47 AM
Oops... My bad, thought 'this' discussion was about a nano tank contest, sorry about that

StirCrazy
04-17-2009, 05:02 AM
Oops... My bad, thought 'this' discussion was about a nano tank contest, sorry about that

na, we stold it for other conversations, who said it was a nano contest anyways. all the thread said was Contest #2. you nano people already had your contest now its time for bigger tanks. If you want another nano contest start a Nano contest thread. :mrgreen:

Steve

christyf5
04-17-2009, 05:26 AM
na, we stold it for other conversations, who said it was a nano contest anyways. all the thread said was Contest #2. you nano people already had your contest now its time for bigger tanks. If you want another nano contest start a Nano contest thread. :mrgreen:

Steve

you STOLD it? Come on now Steve, only 10 year olds say that :razz:

StirCrazy
04-17-2009, 05:53 AM
you STOLD it? Come on now Steve, only 10 year olds say that :razz:

3 pages of typing and thats the best you could come up with :mrgreen:

Im tired, it rought being a single dad overnight. but I am getting used to it I think LOL

Steve

Ron99
04-17-2009, 06:20 AM
Well, the discussion did start out as a new nano contest with people suggesting 20 gallon and under. So maybe you need to start a new thread for a large tank contest :lol:

Ron99
04-17-2009, 06:35 AM
Getting back on track a bit, I would like to see things kept fairly simple and open. Set a max size, maybe set some budgets and let people get as creative as they want within those limits. From some of what I have seen on the boards already I think the members of canreef will produce some really interesting results.

rocketlily
04-17-2009, 01:18 PM
What I would like to see if Contest #1 finished before Contest #2 takes over the boards. This thread keeps being used and is on page 1. The voting threads for contest #1 is now buried on page 3. "How long is your photoperiod" is now the featured poll on page 1. Voting for Contest #1 never even made it to the front page polls. Sorry, but alot of people put in alot of work for the first contest and it would be nice to give them a couple of days of attention.

JDigital
04-17-2009, 02:32 PM
What I would like to see if Contest #1 finished before Contest #2 takes over the boards. This thread keeps being used and is on page 1. The voting threads for contest #1 is now buried on page 3. "How long is your photoperiod" is now the featured poll on page 1. Voting for Contest #1 never even made it to the front page polls. Sorry, but alot of people put in alot of work for the first contest and it would be nice to give them a couple of days of attention.

The voting threads have been stickied in this section.

christyf5
04-17-2009, 03:35 PM
3 pages of typing and thats the best you could come up with :mrgreen:


Steve

I only read the most current page, all that bickering back and forth, who has time for that? when the contest is close to starting I'll start filtering through it :razz:

christyf5
04-17-2009, 03:36 PM
What I would like to see if Contest #1 finished before Contest #2 takes over the boards. This thread keeps being used and is on page 1. The voting threads for contest #1 is now buried on page 3. "How long is your photoperiod" is now the featured poll on page 1. Voting for Contest #1 never even made it to the front page polls. Sorry, but alot of people put in alot of work for the first contest and it would be nice to give them a couple of days of attention.

Sorry I meant to make a new forum for it. I don't think both contests should be in the same one, takes away from each IMO. :biggrin:

michika
04-17-2009, 05:05 PM
Christy,

What are the voting polls for Contest #1 locked?

christyf5
04-17-2009, 06:42 PM
the polls aren't locked, just the threads are. I just didn't want people posting in them so I could bump them up occasionally.

bloody hell, just when I think I have this stupid program figured out. Sorry about that. It was just supposed to be locked for posting not voting too.

michika
04-17-2009, 07:40 PM
The program is out to get you!

So everyone, what is the plan? I'm starting to plan this all out already, but I need some goals and limations placed on my potential craziness....shall we get on it?

christyf5
04-17-2009, 07:44 PM
Lets rock and roll. What was the general consensus on rules and categories and stuffs?

Should we sort of roll it out like this years? With voting for a "best tank" and "most innovative" category?

I was thinking we could go with a tank size limit/water volume limit for both a stock and custom category (I was thinking max tank size 20 gal, max water volume 30 then it squeaks in as a nano and those doing a 20gal can have a sump). Then do limited and unlimited budget for each leaving 4 categories total?? Simplifies it a little.

michika
04-17-2009, 08:00 PM
It seems like the 4 person consensus (go vote people!) on the start date is looking like June 1 right now.

Most of the responses in the category poll came up as a Stock 10g with a limited budget, and a custom tank with a limited budget. However I did notice there was interest in pico-type tanks as well.

I'm still prefering a max volume of twice the size of the display, so 20g + 20g = 40g, but I'll go along with almost anything.

Budgets, I think, but anyone can pipe up here, that we are leaning towards a limited hardware budget, but unlimited livestock budget.

Rules...yeah...something something....rules...someone fill in this blank....rules...bla ba ba blacksheep have you any wool?

Ron99
04-17-2009, 08:55 PM
I say K.I.S.S. Basic guidelines could be: Max volume of 20 gallons + 10 gallons for a sump ( I think most people consider anything over 30 to 34 gallons isn't really a nano). Max hardware budget of $300? $400? Maybe $500? I bow to others on that. I plan on probably doing something in the 3 to 4 gallon range (so well within the size restriction) and I want it to come in below $300 so it really doesn't matter to me. Since livestock is so variable I agree that it is hard to agree on and police that budget so just have that open.

As I said, set some limits on max size and max spending and let people get creative within those limits.