overflow question

[Canuckgod420]

Just wondering if I could get more return on my tank if I went herbie style.
Right now I have the megaflow overflow system that came with the tank and its rated at 600 gph. Not sure what the size of the return hole is in the bottom of the tank(whatever the standard drilling is).
I got a new pump from my work and it pushes insane amounts of water(not sure how much but the pump is 1/3 HP)

This should be fun!!!

[mark]

A Herbie works as a full siphon, not partial such as a Durso so technically yes, more flow.

You do have two drains bulkheads available though, one for the primary, then the emergency?

[fkshiu]

Why in the world would you need a 1/3 hp return pump for a 72 gallon (according to your sig) tank? Too much flow throug the sump causes more noise, micro-bubbles and salt creep and reduces the effectiveness of your skimmer.

[xtreme]

Too much flow throug the sump causes more noise, micro-bubbles and salt creep and reduces the effectiveness of your skimmer.

What is the recommended flow through a sump?

[RuGlu6]

Why in the world would you need a 1/3 hp return pump for a 72 gallon (according to your sig) tank? Too much flow through the sump causes more noise, micro-bubbles and salt creep and reduces the effectiveness of your skimmer.
x2
the above is correct
in addition to the above:
Amount of return g/hr is not as important as internal flow, i.e. flow in display tank. And what we have in our tanks is still nothing compare to the ocean currents, i have almost x200 times flow in my 60 gal, but only less then 300 g/hr return from the sump.
jmtcw

[RuGlu6]

What is the recommended flow through a sump?
you tank volume x few times /hr, just to have enough to feed your skimmer and to replace water effluent from you calcium reactor etc. so minimal return from sump is OK imo.

[sphelps]

haha 1/3hp! The reeflow barracuda is smaller and that pushes 4500gph! Hopefully you didn't purchase a utility or sump pump from Canadian Tire or somewhere similar. Well at least it will sound good :lol:

[Canuckgod420]

The pump is not your run of the mill sump pump.....I work at Andrew Sheret and its a replacement jacuzzi tub pump, made by pentair, I called there customer service and they said the pump is fine for this purpous.

Anyway the pump is gonna be branched off to my chiller, tank return, and frag tank.
External so less heat and almost half the electricity of all the other pumps combined. and if I can get enough flow back to my tank maybe I can reduce at least 1 of my ugly powerheads in my display.

So what is kinda funny though is I completely forgot about the flow coming back into my sump........so yeah obviously some issues there with too much flow.

[Pazil]

I agree what what the others have said in regards to the amount of flow through the sump being important..... However if the sump is designed properly for a higher flow you will not get micro bubbles and the a good skimmer should still work effectively. I run a Dart return on full throttle... which means I am putting approx. 3000 gph @ 4' of head loss(20x turn over)through my sump and have no micro bubbles and have to empty my skimmer cup every 2 days. I run no powerheads and only have the return pump and a Tunze nano wavemaker for internal flow. There are no dead spots in the tank and no settlement of debris.

Cheers
Lawrence

[sphelps]

for reference a Dart is 1/8 HP and reeflow pumps are essentially hot tub pumps however they have different seals so they can be used for saltwater. In addition they are quiet, have you ever been in a hot tub with the pump going?

Just a friendly FYI, that pump will cause you problems, not sure it was worth the money you saved.

[golf nut]

Anyway the pump is gonna be branched off to my chiller, tank return, and frag tank.



You could likely run it up the street and feed Pazils tank and still have enough left over for Mr Phelps.

[Canuckgod420]

Its not a hottub pump its for an indoor jacuzzi tub, I've heard the one in action in our showroom, not loud at all, and I am going to have to dial back the flow with a ball valve anyways.

So even if i push 600gph into both the frag tank and my main display I will still be getting 1200gph into my sump. So for that I guess I will need a series of baffles in my sump.
Time for a bigger sump i guess.

Its kinda funny how this thread turned into a discussion about a pump, I was wondering if the herbie would give me more flow than the durso I have now. I have 2 holes in my tank bottom 1 for the herbie the other for the emergency overflow.

[sphelps]

What's funnier is you're using 250W+ to push 1200gph. A snapper will do double that at zero head at a fraction of the power consumption. 250W is over $225 a year and close to 1000 kgs of CO2 emissions.

But for what it's worth, yes a Herbie style overflow will typically allow for more flow.

[Canuckgod420]

well its not 250+watts for 1200 gph
Even though the snapper runs at less wattage at zero head? who runs a return pump with no head pressure...that was originally the pump I was going to buy, but after working out the head pressure with rise and elbows on the plumbing I was going to barely break 1200gph, so at least this pump will give me options for expanding to other equipment.

wattage maxed on the pump is 275, when I dial that back it will reduce the wattage, just like the reeflo series.
On top of that once I run this I can remove tho other pumps I spoke of....mag drive 950=93 watts, quiet one 4000HH=120 watts, guiet one 4000=95 watts.

So really not much difference from the wattage being used now, but thanks for the update on my CO2 emmisions, which of course you tank runs completely green right? Of course not.
Again a little off topic, but thanks for the herbie amswer.

[sphelps]

Although the pump will use less power when turned back it only goes so far, for example the snapper can only be turned down to 75W and your pump could be around the 200W range for a minimum. Second your pump efficiency is best around the mid-range where flow curve intersects the power curve. For example look at the snapper flow chart:

http://www.jlaquatics.com/images/flowcharts/reeflo_snapper.jpg

The most efficient way to run this pump is at around 8 feet of head pushing around 1400GPH at about 100W. I'm just guessing here but that seems to be perfect for you which is why I recommended it. I would also bet the power you save in one year will pay the difference between your pump and this pump and after two years almost pay for itself. If the snapper is too small the same company actually makes another pump called the Dart which has slightly more power so not sure why that wouldn't have been the next logical choice.

In the end just trying to give you some useful information and advice as well as make sure others don't make the same mistake. Yes a little off topic but I think if someone sees an obvious problem it's good to point it out rather than ignore it. Justify it all you want but there are many good reasons why people don't use actual pool, jacuzzi, or hut tub pumps in this hobby. A lot of times these types of pumps are not meant for continuous use and they don't have the correct seals.

It's that kind of attitude which results in North Americans using 11 times the necessary carbon footprint. Yes not many aquariums are considered green but no point wasting power, two wrongs don't make a right. All my pumps are sized correctly and I've done essentially everything I can to reduce the power consumption of my aquarium. I also car pool which actually offsets the carbon footprint of my aquarium :lol: I also thought you might find that fact interesting if saving money didn't, not trying to make anyone join Greenpeace or anything.

[Sebae again]

Good helpful info Sphelps.

[Canuckgod420]

Dont get me wrong, I appreciate your input, but like I said I would be removing 3 other pumps with a larger watt draw than this pump. I have seriously looked at all the reeflo pumps, and there are a couple that seemed right for the job. Although the price seems to climb steeply with each larger pump. I work at a plumbing wholesaler so the cost on this pump was next to nothing. This pump was a smoking deal. By the way if anyone needs a booster pump for their RO unit I can get the same unit that sells for $218.00(before tax) at most retailers for approx. 85 bucks. Sorry off topic....lol

Now as far as this attitude thing you speak of....I dont really appreciate that, I value our planet as much as the next treehugger, I live 5 kms from work, so I ride my bike when its nice, carpool when I can, and drive when nothing else is available. I drive a car with an efficient engine, I spend maybe 80 bucks a month on fuel, how many other people can say that. I bet that reduces my carbon footprint. To further help lower my hydro bill I was actually thinking of ditching my 500W metal halide system for a t5 system, and I've eliminated my chiller.

I know that many of you people have thousands of more posts than I do but that doesnt make me a rookie reef keeper(4 years). I do have a grasp on this hobby(I hope) and I do a lot of research before I take the plunge into something.

[golf nut]

Unfortunately tone of voice doesn't show well in posts, your initial question was about the overflow and not about the pump, however because we want to help we also make comments when we see what could be a potential problem, ie a pump that is too much for the need, and a pump that wasn't designed to run in salt water, if you don't need any comments on the pump then better just not to mention it as there are far to many helpful people on here that would be amiss if they did not say anything.

[Canuckgod420]

So what your saying is I should just shut my mouth and not post anything because others are incapable of sticking to the point?
Inevitably I would have gotten the question as to why I want to increase my flow.....I would have answered and this would be happening anyway.
Like I said, I'm neither a newbie or an idiot, I've done tonnes of research, contacted the manufacturer, and weighed the pros and cons. YES the pump is a little overkill, but since I am also in the planning stages of a 300 gallon tank then all of a sudden this pump is perfect.

I just happened to mention the pump......thanks everyone for the herbie return answers.

[Myka]

Herbie will generally give you a bit more flow ability, but may be noisey since there will probably be some water overflowing into the emergency drain if you run it full out.

The pump is not your run of the mill sump pump.....I work at Andrew Sheret and its a replacement jacuzzi tub pump, made by pentair, I called there customer service and they said the pump is fine for this purpous.

What question did you ask Andrew Sheret that they said the pump would be suitable? As others have pointed out, I'm worried about seals, and it leaking residues, oils or greases into your reef. Did you specifically ask them if the pump is designed for continual use, and if it's suitable for saltwater?

The pump should still have a GPH rating, if you don't know it a Google search on the brand and model number/name might come up with an answer. A quick Google search came up with a 1/3 HP Jacuzzi pump and it does 1100 GPH at 0' head.

http://www.poolsupplies.com/cgi-bin/Commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=561825&gdftrk=gdfV2589_a_7c692_a_7c2676_a_7c561825

Your tank should have 215-430 GPH (3-6x turnover). Depending on the size of your sump, and frag tank you could make it work. If you dialed the pump back 25% (I wouldn't do more than that) it would run at 825 GPH which would be suitable for a total system volume of 140-275 gallons (3-6x turnover). PROVIDED you pump is actually 1100 GPH. That's not taking 5' of head pressure into consideration either though. Considering jacuzzi pumps aren't designed for much head pressure, I wouldn't be surprised if it lost 25% in 5' of head, so you could merely have 825 GPH at 5' head before dialling it back.

As a (barely) educated guess the pump is probably not overly large for the tank, but draws SOOO much wattage that it would not even be considerable (for any price) IMO.

[Canuckgod420]

Again.....thanks for the herbie info.
I didnt ask Andrew Sheret anything....I work there.
I called the pump manufacturer and got my info.
There is NO difference between this pumps wattage and the 3 pumps it is going to replace, actually what will happen is my overall temp should drop a few degrees because I am removing 3 internal pumps for 1 external....again, I am not a newbie and I have done so much research on this and many other pumps.....remember this pump is made by pentair, the same company that makes the quiet one series.

[sphelps]

Dont get me wrong, I appreciate your input, but like I said I would be removing 3 other pumps with a larger watt draw than this pump.
Like I was saying two wrongs don't make a right, you're taking two steps forward in the right direction but then another step back with the wrong pump selection. I get why people like to save money and make certain decisions for that reason and the only reason I'm replying again is cause I find it strange for someone with obvious care to sell out so easily. I still find it hard to believe you have more than 8 feet of head pressure, keep in mind this may be a problem and to efficiently add more flow you'll need to re-plumb.

[sphelps]

I would hope that pump does more than 1100gph at 1/3HP otherwise I cannot even grasp the reasoning for it. Even a mag1200 does much better than that and they are pretty inefficient.

[Canuckgod420]

as far as head pressure goes....7' to display, 8' to frag tank, 4' to chiller(unless I can eliminate all together).
How am I selling out?
By not spending $400.00 on a pump that pushes 1000gph less than what I have?
I dont get it.
Also with this pump I can tee off and run my phosban reactors, my refugium, my zeo reactor(DIY) etc.

As far as the 1200gph I dont know where Myka got that info but it does not apply to this pump.

[Canuckgod420]

I followed the link Myka gave on her post.....not even close to the pump I have....mine looks exactly like any one of the reeflo series, except with 2" in and out instead of 1.5.
And retail on this pump I have is $380.00.

[Jack]

Using a herbie will not give you more draining capacity.

[golf nut]

If the Herbie style is a siphon type feed rather than a Durso type, providing the diameters are the same there should be substantial increase with the Herbie

Which exact pump do you have? may as well know its capacity to form an educated opinion.

[mark]

Which exact pump do you have? may as well know its capacity to form an educated opinion.

Don't think Canuck was looking for an opinion on the pump, just if a Herbie of the same diameter would flow the same/more/less.

[e46er]

never ran a herbie but took some physics years ago and it would tell me that a herbie (creating a full syphon with ZERO air) will drain much better than a durso style drain (air takes up space) a 1" durso gives you 600 gph a herbie style drain 1" would not surprise me if it was capable of 900-1000 gph(this was just a guess) i wish i went herbie style so its silent:sad:

[Canuckgod420]

I guess the best way to know is to do it.
I'm re-doing my entire setup anyways....so good time as any.

[sphelps]

the main reason a Herbie flows more is head pressure, a standard durso or other standpipe operates at essentially zero head pressure while a Herbie has head pressure equal to the height of the overflow.

Out of curiosity why not share the model number of that pump?

Also when you branch of a line you don't look at it as a single system, for example, ignoring pipe friction, if you have two lines going up 8' you only have 8' of head pressure not 16'. So with your system you haven't analyzed it properly, you have less head pressure than you think.

[golf nut]

if you have two lines going up 8' you only have 8' of head pressure not 16'. So with your system you haven't analyzed it properly, you have less head pressure than you think.

beat me to it, providing it is done properly.

[Myka]

as far as head pressure goes....7' to display, 8' to frag tank, 4' to chiller(unless I can eliminate all together).

You're talking about horizontal distance aren't you? Head pressure is vertical distance from the pump to the water surface. :)

[Canuckgod420]

There is no model no on the pump...its an OEM replacement pump for a jetted tub.
The only thing that is on the pump is HP: 1/3. Jetted tub manufacturer, and pump manufacturer(Pentair). I called the tub maker, they in turn gave me the # to the people they talk to about their pumps, and I called them.

Explain your theory on the head pressure please, it would be nice to know for sure.
The way I see it, if I tee off a pump(any pump) the flow coming from either end of the tee would be half of what the flow is straight from the pump...correct?

[mark]

maybe it's a matter of terminology but you'll still get loss, referred to as head loss, even if just running horizontal.

Example (http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php?submitted=1&VerticalLength=0&HorizontalLength=100&PipeDiameter=0.75&PumpID=119&Elbows90=0&Elbows45=0&GateValves=0&BallValves=0&Couplings=0&CheckValves=0&Exits=1&Entrances=1)

[Canuckgod420]

Yes Myka I know how to calculate head pressure...again, not a rookie....but thanks for that.
I'll detail it for you if that helps you in any way.
My pump would be sitting on the floor of the stand.....approx 3" off the floor, with me so far. Then the pipe turns a 90 then another 90 then runs all the way up the back of the tank, then over the tank into the water....2 more 90's. I guess I should mention that the top off my tank is at eye level.....6 feet up. So actually, I've under calculated my head pressure for just the display alone, each 90 is considered 1 foot of head pressure, so we are looking at 10 feet just for 1 tank. Then theres the prop tank same as above only extra 6 feet to the right.

[Canuckgod420]

Oh and on top of all that I am not running 2" pipe back into my tank, at some point I need to reduce the pipes down to 1 or 1.5". So lots more loss right there.

[Canuckgod420]

Again I will try to stress this as best I can....I am not a rookie, or an idiot. I have done extensive research and have come to the conclusion that this will work.
Just wanted info on good old herbie....lol
Where the hell did that name come from anyway?

[golf nut]

And this pump with no numbers has saltwater seals?

Why not run Spaflex and get better flow.at least 4 ft less head.

[sphelps]

Yes Myka I know how to calculate head pressure...again, not a rookie....but thanks for that.
I'll detail it for you if that helps you in any way.
My pump would be sitting on the floor of the stand.....approx 3" off the floor, with me so far. Then the pipe turns a 90 then another 90 then runs all the way up the back of the tank, then over the tank into the water....2 more 90's. I guess I should mention that the top off my tank is at eye level.....6 feet up. So actually, I've under calculated my head pressure for just the display alone, each 90 is considered 1 foot of head pressure, so we are looking at 10 feet just for 1 tank. Then theres the prop tank same as above only extra 6 feet to the right.
Easy buddy we're all friends here, but if you want to be a jerk you don't know how to calculate head pressure.

you've got 6 feet of vertical height and I'll assume 1 foot of horizontal. On top of that you've got 4 90s and again I'll also assume a ball valve. Easiest way to calculate head pressure is to use a calculator like the one on RC (http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php?submitted=1&VerticalLength=6&HorizontalLength=1&PipeDiameter=1.5&PumpID=53&Elbows90=4&Elbows45=0&GateValves=0&BallValves=1&Couplings=0&CheckValves=0&Exits=1&Entrances=1). Head pressure is also directly related to flow rate so for an example if you run a sequence 2400 (similar to snapper) in your situation (with 1.5" piping) as described you get 6.81 feet of head pressure and 1231gph but if you run a larger pump in the same situation you'll get upwards of 9.8 feet of head pressure. 1 foot per 90 is not accurate.

Unfortunately such an elementary calculator doesn't properly allow for multiple branch calculations however consider this: Yes if you branch the flow to two equal lines you split the flow but your head pressure will decrease. In fact it will decrease for two reasons, lower flow and double the cross sectional area of the pipe. Therefore you can trick such a calculator to give a good estimate. For example, let's assume two pipes from a 2500gph pump, each 1.5" and both have vertical distance of 6 feet and 1 foot horizontal with 4 90s a piece. We can trick the calculator to give us an estimate, remember this is an estimate, you don't want me to do the real thing, trust me :lol:. So use the same pump but we'll assume two 1.5" pipes are pretty close to one 2" pipe (which they are, considering the extra pipe friction from the two 1.5" pipes). We still only have 6 feet of actual head but we'll add the extra 6 feet into the horizontal distance to account for friction loss.
So this is what we got:
Pipe size: 2" (actually two 1.5" lines)
Vertical: 6 feet
Horizontal: 8 feet
90s: 8
Ball valves: 2

Total head pressure: 6.53 feet of head and 1305 gph.

Wow you gained flow, that snapper is looking pretty good, but keep in mind a super rough estimate here, but in such a circumstance you could actually gain "total" flow and reduce head pressure by branching a line to another tank.

Also I thought I'd point out another problem, you seemed to have bought a pump you know nothing about except that it came off a jacuzzi and uses too much power. What about flow rate? Doesn't sound like research to me.

I once met a guy who has kept saltwater tanks for 20+ years but could still not figure out how to keep any corals alive other than mushrooms. Also as an engineer I have to deal with many clients who have issues using some of our products, whenever there's a problem on the clients side the first thing they say is "I've been doing this for so many years, I can't be wrong" but they always are :wink:

[sphelps]

Also a little more info for you, a 1/3 HP pump doesn't mean it uses 250W, actually a 1/6 HP centrifugal style pump will use about 275W on average.

[mark]

Where the hell did that name come from anyway?

username of the guy on RC who popularized it

[Canuckgod420]

Easy buddy we're all friends here, but if you want to be a jerk you don't know how to calculate head pressure.

you've got 6 feet of vertical height and I'll assume 1 foot of horizontal. On top of that you've got 4 90s and again I'll also assume a ball valve. Easiest way to calculate head pressure is to use a calculator like the one on RC (http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php?submitted=1&VerticalLength=6&HorizontalLength=1&PipeDiameter=1.5&PumpID=53&Elbows90=4&Elbows45=0&GateValves=0&BallValves=1&Couplings=0&CheckValves=0&Exits=1&Entrances=1). Head pressure is also directly related to flow rate so for an example if you run a sequence 2400 (similar to snapper) in your situation (with 1.5" piping) as described you get 6.81 feet of head pressure and 1231gph but if you run a larger pump in the same situation you'll get upwards of 9.8 feet of head pressure. 1 foot per 90 is not accurate.

Unfortunately such an elementary calculator doesn't properly allow for multiple branch calculations however consider this: Yes if you branch the flow to two equal lines you split the flow but your head pressure will decrease. In fact it will decrease for two reasons, lower flow and double the cross sectional area of the pipe. Therefore you can trick such a calculator to give a good estimate. For example, let's assume two pipes from a 2500gph pump, each 1.5" and both have vertical distance of 6 feet and 1 foot horizontal with 4 90s a piece. We can trick the calculator to give us an estimate, remember this is an estimate, you don't want me to do the real thing, trust me :lol:. So use the same pump but we'll assume two 1.5" pipes are pretty close to one 2" pipe (which they are, considering the extra pipe friction from the two 1.5" pipes). We still only have 6 feet of actual head but we'll add the extra 6 feet into the horizontal distance to account for friction loss.
So this is what we got:
Pipe size: 2" (actually two 1.5" lines)
Vertical: 6 feet
Horizontal: 8 feet
90s: 8
Ball valves: 2

Total head pressure: 6.53 feet of head and 1305 gph.

Wow you gained flow, that snapper is looking pretty good, but keep in mind a super rough estimate here, but in such a circumstance you could actually gain "total" flow and reduce head pressure by branching a line to another tank.

Also I thought I'd point out another problem, you seemed to have bought a pump you know nothing about except that it came off a jacuzzi and uses too much power. What about flow rate? Doesn't sound like research to me.

I once met a guy who has kept saltwater tanks for 20+ years but could still not figure out how to keep any corals alive other than mushrooms. Also as an engineer I have to deal with many clients who have issues using some of our products, whenever there's a problem on the clients side the first thing they say is "I've been doing this for so many years, I can't be wrong" but they always are :wink:

you wanna talk about being a jerk... I'm not trying to push my opinion down anyones throat.
I've done more research than you need to know....not a pump thread, this was about a herbie.

I simply responded to myka in the same tone I got from her post about head pressure.

Are you to tell me now that I dont know how to keep a reef tank? I happen to have a beautiful reef in my home that many of these other canreefers have seen. Were talking about a pump here. And whos to say that maybe your not the one wrong here?

I never asked for your(or anyones) opinion about the pump I have in mind for the job....this was a herbie question thread.

[sphelps]

Haha, you're welcome :biggrin: just trying to help. Enjoy the new pump.

[golf nut]

Explain your theory on the head pressure please, it would be nice to know for sure.
The way I see it, if I tee off a pump(any pump) the flow coming from either end of the tee would be half of what the flow is straight from the pump...correct?

You did ask this question did you not?

He gave you the correct answer and some free advice, why the hostility?

What is so secret about an OEM pump, I am going to guess that this is an Emerson replacement.

[Canuckgod420]

The so called hostility stems from the jerk comment he made at the beginning of the post....I was merely responding to mykas post.

Theres nothing secret about the pump...its just not what the thread was about, and I have no interest in explaining anything more about the pump,and you are incorrect on the emerson replacement? what ever that means.

Never did I say I wasnt grateful for the head pressure calculation. I still have a hard time believing all that when I see how much loss I get from the pumps I run right now....for example....quiet one 4000HH claims 800GPH @ 6'....but on my return to my tank after 6' up and 2 elbows the flow is minimal. I guarantee I am not even getting 400GPH right now.

[golf nut]

In order to get the best you can from any pump you need to maximize pipe diameters, every little helps, sometimes seeing is believing and unless you have done testing it is hard to believe, try running your return pump into a container and based on time and gallons do the math.

Here is what is hard to believe.

Since the birth of Christ, a Trillion seconds have not yet passed, ... do the math.

[Jack]

The herbie is not a syphon and you will not drain more.

[sphelps]

Here is what is hard to believe.

Since the birth of Christ, a Trillion seconds have not yet passed, ... do the math.
Every year 100,000,000 sharks are killed by man :surprise:

[sphelps]

The herbie is not a syphon and you will not drain more.
like I said before it's about head pressure. Herbie will flow more

[Jack]

Have you used one?

I have, it won't drain more.

[sphelps]

yes I have. Comparing a standard standpipe to a Herbie with the same bulkhead size the Herbie will typically flow more. For example if your overflow is about 2 feet tall and you run a Herbie you have 2 feet of head pressure on top of your drain input to help push more flow in. With a standpipe you don't have this. Just like running a pump at zero head compared to 2 feet of head, but it works in an opposite fashion with a drain, more head pressure will mean more flow.

Of course I say typically because for this to work you have to have the primary drain located at the bottom of the overflow and not have any kind of extension tube, otherwise you don't have the head pressure to push more flow. To demonstrate try an experiment, fill an old tall container will water and punch a small hole in the side near the bottom and you'll see a jet of water spray out. You'll notice as the water level decreases, which reduces the pressure at the hole, the water jet will not spray as far.

You can also note that the primary reasoning for a Herbie is noise reduction not increased flow. The idea is the system can take a large amount of flow and drain it whisper quiet.

[Canuckgod420]

Anyone notice when I started this thread the last thing I said was "this should be fun"....

[Millepora_Maniac]

Hi Man,
I've actually seen this pump, it looks just like a reeflow snapper, except diferent colours. And furthermore, if you think about having a bath, then sometimes you use epsom salts and bath oils and crap like that. So the seals are going to be resistant to all of the stuff that's floating in our water! And seriously, who cares about the carbon footprint of the pump! We get hydro-electric power out here!! It just means you pay more for the power consumption!!!
Cheers-Ken

I tend to believe Jeff from J+L, I've taken all of his advice so far, that is except for yours:mrgreen: