cowfish cautions

[Aquamarina]

Hi. I'm a newbie to salt water fish-keeping, but am becoming fascinated by the hobby. We bought this house in Nov.02 and it came with a stocked 220 gal salt tank, so have had to learn quick! So far, so good, until I decided to buy a few more fish--2 Tangs, a butterfly, a blenny, and a long-horned cowfish about 3" long, just because he seemed personable! I followed the instructions from the fish store owner, giving them a bath in the prescribed chemical, and put more chemical in the 20-gal quarantine tank and added the fish. Next morning, all were dead, except the cowfish, which I was told "should have been first to die". Looking to the internet for answers later, I discovered that a frightened or sick cowfish can excrete a toxin which can wipe out a fish tank. As he was the only fish left alive, it is only logical to assume that he was the murderous culprit!
Before I found this out, he was put in the main tank so hopefully any toxin will be somewhat diluted. I keep the salt mixing tank in readiness, though.
Another problem has come up--3 days ago, the cowfish "Apollo" (because he looks like he is on a moon mission!) got stuck in a rock cave 3' down at the bottom of the tank, and just floated looking out the glass, making little attempt to find the way out. After missing feeding time, I began to worry that he would die in there and start producing toxin, so I started to chip away at the rock with a steel yard-stick (hoping not to frighten him!) and eventually freed him. Because of this inability to slide in and out of crannies like other fish, and because a dead cowfish would be difficult to remove from rocky formations, I don't think it's a good idea to have cowfish in large tanks with a lot of rock.
I do like him, though, and think he is such an interesting fish. I am posting this rather long (sorry!) message just as a caution to other fish-keepers who might be considering cowfish. I won't be buying any more fish without getting as much info on them as possible!

[Van down by the river]

What was the "chemical" you added?

[DJ88]

Yes what was the chemical prescribed? How much did you put in? Why did you bathe the cowfish in this chemical?

I am betting that chemical had more to do with the death of the fish than the cowfish.

I had a cow die in my tank and it didn't release any toxins. THe other cow underwent a couple of very stressful events(having a run in with a carpet anemone) and didn't release any toxins either.

[Troy F]

I'd seriously avoid the advice of that particular fish store in the future. When looking to add more livestock your best is to do it fish by fish unless there's an extenuating circumstance (like trying to circumvent aggression).

Adding five fish (all territorial) to a 20gal tank would be enough to seriously stress all the fish. Personally, my guess would be the boxfish did nuke the others. With certain species of boxfish it's a well documented phenomena. Of course, in a closed system the toxin should have probably killed the boxfish too. But the coincidence just seems to strong for me. Darren, you may've had a species that is not known to release the toxin or the toxin isn't as lethal such as Lactoria fornasini.

[DJ88]

Holy.. didn't see 5 fish in a 20. saw chemical and chemical and skipped the rest. 5 territorial fish in a 20 gallon tank is not a good thing. That is a lot of stress you have created on top of hte stress of moving to a new home. 5 fish at once in a tank is a lot of stress. Butterflies are a very delicate fish to start. Two tangs in a 20.. ouch.. I'd suggest going a bit slower with fish additions and let us know what that chemical was that you added and bathed them in. thanks.

Troy,

The longhorned cow's don't seem to release like the other boxfish do. I agree with you that if it had in a 20 gallon it would have died as well. Cow's are pretty tough. A lot tougher than people think. My two went through some rough times that a lot of other fish wouldn't have made it through. Including run in's with a very healthy carpet anemone that wiped out a few fish with just a glance.

[AJ_77]

Guys, I think it's a 220 gallon. Might change your advice. :biggrin: We bought this house in Nov.02 and it came with a stocked 220 gal salt tank, so have had to learn quick!
And "welcome" to our new Calgary member!

[DJ88]

I followed the instructions from the fish store owner, giving them a bath in the prescribed chemical, and put more chemical in the 20-gal quarantine tank and added the fish. Next morning, all were dead,

20 gal Q tank..

[AJ_77]

Right you are, Darren - so much for my grade 12 education...
:redface:

Didn't read that first post well enough to make sense of it. My mistake.

[DJ88]

Alan,

I didn't read it fully the first time either.. lol

so no worries.

[Delphinus]

Man, I want to buy a house that comes with a 220gal aquarium. What a score!!!

[Aquamarina]

Many thanks for the input.

The chemical I was advised to use was Ruby Reef "Hydroplex-- for treatment of bacterial and parasitic infections". I followed the instructions for amounts to be added to the initial bath and to the Q. tank.

I bought 5 fish because I was told that introducing just one or two to the main tank would cause stress to the new fish. Two Tangs were purchased as there are 4 already in the main tank and one of those is constantly being driven into a cave by another Tang--the new 2 were to help ease the bullying. Other fish in the main tank include a triggerfish, 3 damsels, a wrasse,and some large clownfish, which all seem to be quite territorial and dive-bombed the cowfish for the first couple of days. As well, there is a butterfly, 2 small clowns, a PJ cardinalfish and a couple of stars.

One factor I didn't mention is that there was a rock placed in the Q. tank by the previous owner and I left it there. There was some suspicion the rock harboured some sort of toxin. However, exactly the same type of rock is what has been used extensively in the main tank, so I don't feel that the rock is an issue.

Looking forward to hearing any more ideas on the probable cause of death. How many and what sort of fish would you suggest I get, when I get up the courage to go shopping again?

[Canadian Man]

.

Looking forward to hearing any more ideas on the probable cause of death. How many and what sort of fish would you suggest I get, when I get up the courage to go shopping again?

Yes, WELCOME!

Anyway I bet alot of what happened (as some have hinted at) was or may have been caused by stress. In the future I would say add one fish at a time to your quarintine tank and then when you feel confident add that fish to the main tank.

If the fish you are adding are not of the same species/body shape there shouldn't be too much to worry about. Of course you alway risk something not getting along with something else. Just don't add a yellow tang to an allready established scopas tang in your tank.

[StirCrazy]

What other fish are already in the tank, at 4 tanks in a 220 gal tank in my opinion your have to many already and this could be why one is getting bullied.. I think a 220 should have 2 tangs at most, but you will find some opinions that varry from 1 tang to maby 3 . but I think most will agree 1 or 2 is all there should be in a 220.

but let us know what else is in the tank and then people will be able to help you more.

Steve

[Quinn]

Six tangs and three or four other large fish in a 220?! :eek:

[Aquattro]

Six tangs and three or four other large fish in a 220?! :eek:

Let's all remember that this tank came as is and aquamarina is learning along the way. This is where we get to help someone, not chastise them.

I agree that 2 (and very maybe 3) tangs is enough for that tank. They get very territorial. So do triggers. What type of trigger and wrasse is in there now? Clowns are the meanest SOBs ever to enter an aquarium (IMO).

Please provide a list of all fish and the type of filtration you have currently. Do you have a protein skimmer? Is there liverock in the tank, and if so, how much. Any other info you can think of would be helpful. Thanks!

[Quinn]

Six tangs and three or four other large fish in a 220?! :eek:

Let's all remember that this tank came as is and aquamarina is learning along the way. This is where we get to help someone, not chastise them.


Not an attack, just a gasp. No offense intended.

[Aquattro]

Sorry Quinn, I didn't mean to imply you were attacking, I just saw the tone of the thread going that way and your post was there, waiting to be quoted. :razz:

[Aquamarina]

[Please provide a list of all fish and the type of filtration you have currently. Do you have a protein skimmer? Is there liverock in the tank, and if so, how much. Any other info you can think of would be helpful. Thanks![/quote]

The following may not be strictly accurate, as I am getting the names from pix on the net. The tank came with:
4 yellow Tangs
1 Picasso trigger
1 Pyjama cardinalfish
1 b/w striped butterfly (this is the largest fish)
1 4-stripe b/w damsel
3 blue/gold damsels (one disappeared in January)
2 ocellaris clowns
1 ? tomato clown (1 stripe)
1 ? maroon clown (2 stripes)
1 blue/green wrasse
2 choc. chip starfish
1 feather duster (eaten and newly grown again)
1 lobster (in a cave, and never seen clearly)

-no live rock, as far as I know, but there is a lot of reddish and grey lava-type rock

-bio-balls in a tower next to the tank for initial filtration
-protein skimmer

I do appreciate your help and interest. Thanks.

[Aquattro]

It sounds like there is plenty of swimming room for the fish. Normally you wouldn't put that many tangs in there, but I have a feeling they are smaller than they could be and if they're getting along, great. The trigger can get really big and eat things you'd rather it didn't. The clowns and damsels are going to harrass anything you add, just because they're like that. The wrasse sounds like a lunar, which can also get fairly big (and hungry).
One of the concerns with adding more livestock is whether the filtration can handle the increased bio-load. Can you post pics of the tower and skimmer?
If it were me, I wouldn't add more fish. Certainly not any tangs! Ultimately you need to figure out how good your filtration is and can it handle more. If the tangs now have been there for a long time and not properly fed (nori, etc) they may be stunted and not take up as much room as they should. They can get to 8 inches or so. You can also figure out any areas that don't have fish and maybe find a fish that fits that niche. Let's see what others say!!

[EmilyB]

I don't think some of us are supposed to say anything... :neutral:

[Aquattro]

I don't think some of us are supposed to say anything... :neutral:

:question: :eek:

[Troy F]

After seeing the list of your fish, the advice of the store you went to becomes even worse. If it were me, I'd never do business with them again. As well as visiting the board (a good start to getting advice from experienced people not selling you anything), I'd suggest reading some books and getting involved with your local hobbyists.

Brad has given some good advice. If you're experiencing aggression between the yellow tangs (a common problem), your best bet would be to remove the most aggressive and fine a new home for it. Repeat as neccessary and you may just end up with one. Tangs of the same genus often don't tolerate one another.

Oh yeah, Welcome to the board :)

[Quinn]

I wonder if the black/white butterfly is in fact a Heniochus? Not that that changes anything.

I think I know what LFS we're talking about here... :neutral:

[Aquamarina]

I am sorry there has been some strife, apparently over a concern about hurting my feelings. I am aware that I am a raw beginner, literally thrown in at the deep end of the tank, and constructive criticism and advice are what I need! So please don't worry--I will stick my head in the aquarium if I feel demoralized! I am guessing what "LFS" is, but would like to know for sure...

To answer a couple of queries:
I think the butterfly is a Heniochus, but not quite like the picture.

The tangs are about 5" nose to tail. Not quite sure how I would remove one as they slide into the narrowest crannies. The wrasse and the trigger are similar sizes at about 6-7".

What is "nori"? I have been feeding frozen food of several different sorts, eg. plankton, mysis shrimp, emerald entree, marine cuisine, salt water multi-pak, bloodworms. I usually feed one cube of each, once daily. A prof. fish guy who came to help me in the quarantine tank emergency told me the fish look healthy, the tangs are a great colour, and the water quality is excellent.

Filtration: the bio ball tower is 18x8x39" and drips into another tank full of bio balls 10x8x20" on its way to the recirc. tank.
Protein skimmer is a Remora AquaC, EV 240 (I found the instructions on the internet and am going by the picture and the dimensions quoted) installed in 2000.

I do a 10% change once a month, and even just before the change, the water tests out ok (pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).

Thanks again for your interest!

[Quinn]

LFS = Local Fish Store

[Aquattro]

I think the strife is over which LFS (local fish store) gave you the advice to add all those fish. Apparently there are sensitive feelings about the various stores in Calgary, each having it's group of support/opposition :-)

Based on those sizes of fish, I'd get used to the ones you have and not add more.

Oh, nori is a seaweed used to wrap sushi. It is the same as the pricey fish seaweed, just a lot cheaper. You can get it at your local grocer.

[Trevor Robertson]

I would like to say welcome to the board. Please feel free to ask any question that you have as we/you are dealing with live animals here and we would all like to see the best enviroment for that animal that is possible. There are no stupid questions (at least not ones that you can hear us laphing at you any way :lol:

Welcome and ask away!

Enjoy the board I know that this has become a very great source of info for me when setting up and adding fish to my tank!