Mantis Tank

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

My fiance wants to get her own tank going and really wants a Peacock Mantis. She keeps bugging me to ask what size tank she would need and how to set it up since I don't know much about these shrimp other than the obvious.

So I guess to start, what size tank would one need? And...should it be acrylic?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

She wants to know if she can keep Seahorses with the "cute little Shrimp".

*Sigh* This is going to be fun :neutral:

[JDigital]

:lol:... I had a chuckle at that... other than that, I'm of no help when it comes to shrimp..

[brizzo]

Have you shown her videos of mantis shrimp on youtube? I don't associate predators that are ferocious killing machines with cute :lol:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

:lol:... I had a chuckle at that... other than that, I'm of no help when it comes to shrimp..

Me too :lol:...shes doesn't know anything about this stuff but likes Mantis Shrimp and Seahorses.

Have you shown her videos of mantis shrimp on youtube? I don't associate predators that are ferocious killing machines with cute :lol:

Just did. She says they are just misunderstood. Oh and that maybe the Seahorses would be a bad idea :wink:


But apparently they are still cute :neutral:

[Rbacchiega]

Actually I remember reading that acrylic is better because the larger specimens can actually break through the glass (whaaaaa?!) I saw somewhere (I'll try to find the link) of a peacock mantis being kept in an Eclipse 6 or the equivalent thereof.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Actually I remember reading that acrylic is better because the larger specimens can actually break through the glass (whaaaaa?!) I saw somewhere (I'll try to find the link) of a peacock mantis being kept in an Eclipse 6 or the equivalent thereof.

Yeah thats what I have heard. I think I will go acrylic.

I was thinking a 20G would be good?

[Rbacchiega]

I'd imagine. Larger ones are 18cms ish if I remember...and not an overly active critter...20 long would be better than a standard I'd think..

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I'd imagine. Larger ones are 18cms ish if I remember...and not an overly active critter...20 long would be better than a standard I'd think..

Ya...I may even just build a custom tank for one based on what would be ideal. But for now I am trying to convince her we don't need a second tank. She seems to really want this stupid shrimp though. Maybe its just a phase.

I would imagine a shallow tank with a big footprint would be nice for one.

The ones they have at J&L are quite large already.

[Rbacchiega]

Just let her know that if she gets a tank for the shrimp...it's only fair that you get something fancy for the 200 gallon...

[ElGuappo]

you may even want to consider a breeder style tank. they from what i have have seen are bottom dwellers and make their home in the sand. therefor they wouldnt need much "swiming " room.

i agree with the acrylic thing aswell. they are also known as "Thumb splitters" as they have been known to break fingers. just my 2 cents and all i have read that hasnt already been said.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Just let her know that if she gets a tank for the shrimp...it's only fair that you get something fancy for the 200 gallon...

Well I would have to be careful with that--she would most likely turn that around and say I have so much fancy stuff in the 200 and she wants all kind of Mantis Shrimp!

you may even want to consider a breeder style tank. they from what i have have seen are bottom dwellers and make their home in the sand. therefor they wouldnt need much "swiming " room.

i agree with the acrylic thing aswell. they are also known as "Thumb splitters" as they have been known to break fingers. just my 2 cents and all i have read that hasnt already been said.

I told her about the fingers in hopes that would deter her but no luck :)

Im just kidding though...I would be happy to set up a proper Mantis tank for her if she really does want it.

[justinl]

O. scyllarus hits a max of 18cm. Large specimens will be able to break through 1/4 inch glass easily. There's a few ways around this problem: 1) get a big tank/ a tank with thicker glass (1/2 inch would be safe but may be overkill) 2) go acrylic 3) take a chance, use a standard tank but line the bottom with strips of acrylic and apply a bead of silicone around the edge of the aquarium up to about half an inch. I chose option three in a 75g tank. It should be noted that tank breaks are actually very rare and of those rare occurences, it is super rare to have a break anywhere but in the bottom pane. breaks usually occur when a mantis is digging and wants the stupid clear obstruction out of the way.

it's a big bug and usually an active species so imo 30g minimum. I have mine in a 75g (60g display) and I find it uses the whole tank. gives the tankmates plenty of room to hide as well.

tankmates is an iffy issue with nothing proven. To increase chances of your tankmates living, think carefully. It is a given that fast water column dwelling diurnal fish have the best chances. Damsels and wrasses come to mind. benthic fish like dragonets and gobies are likely toast; seahorses probably would be too. a well-fed mantis should have no reason to try to hunt down a fish. Bigger tanks = more hiding places which i think is a big deal. what worked for me was to introduce a damsel first... the mantis tried and failed to kill it and eventually gave up; from that point on Ive added a few wrasses, and a lyretail anthias. It seems that once a single hard to kill fish breaks the mantis' spirit for fish capture, that's it. I haven't tried benthic fish though. obviously no crustacean killers like big wrasses, puffers or triggers.

if you're thinking of corals, note well that you cannot have high lighting on your tank. Odontodactylids are susceptible to shell rot which is caused by overexposure to light; males are even more susceptible. You could easily keep the lowest light SPS, most LPS and softies though. That said, I went against the grain and have a 48" t5ho and a 250W halide; this would generally be considered too much, but I've figured out where the mantis stays 95% of the time so I just reconfigured my rockwork carefully such that he is in the shade from the majority of the light in that area. Once you know your animal, careful planning may allow you to accomplish out of the ordinary things for a mantis tank.

here's a link from the authority on mantis shrimp, Dr. Roy Caldwell. I'm not sure if you've found the mantis shrimp forum on RC, but he posts there and there is a lot of good info there.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/species.php?name=o_scyllarus

you'll notice I threw in a lot of anecdotal evidence; usuallly not my style, but mantids are very peckish creatures. what you experience WILL vary individual by individual. you couldn't pick a more personable creature that doesn't have a spine. whooo, long post. let me know any other Qs

edit: i apologize if ive made it sound more complicated than it is. long story short, they are hard to kill animals, have very little in terms of demands, yet are very rewarding pets. Also, if you look up their actual biology a bit, you will be amazed. i guarantee it.

[sunce_22]

I totally agree with justinl. I have too many mantis shrimp to start listing! My general rule about putting things in my mantis tank, is that if I don't want it to be food, I wont add it, however each shrimp is an individual!

Just try to use an acrylic tank, or at LEAST a 30G glass with an acrylic bottom. They are great animals, great pets if in a species tank and respected!

Definitely research more before purchasing one though! They are misunderstood because many ppl don't learn to understand them!

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

O. scyllarus hits a max of 18cm. Large specimens will be able to break through 1/4 inch glass easily. There's a few ways around this problem: 1) get a big tank/ a tank with thicker glass (1/2 inch would be safe but may be overkill) 2) go acrylic 3) take a chance, use a standard tank but line the bottom with strips of acrylic and apply a bead of silicone around the edge of the aquarium up to about half an inch. I chose option three in a 75g tank. It should be noted that tank breaks are actually very rare and of those rare occurences, it is super rare to have a break anywhere but in the bottom pane. breaks usually occur when a mantis is digging and wants the stupid clear obstruction out of the way.

it's a big bug and usually an active species so imo 30g minimum. I have mine in a 75g (60g display) and I find it uses the whole tank. gives the tankmates plenty of room to hide as well.

tankmates is an iffy issue with nothing proven. To increase chances of your tankmates living, think carefully. It is a given that fast water column dwelling diurnal fish have the best chances. Damsels and wrasses come to mind. benthic fish like dragonets and gobies are likely toast; seahorses probably would be too. a well-fed mantis should have no reason to try to hunt down a fish. Bigger tanks = more hiding places which i think is a big deal. what worked for me was to introduce a damsel first... the mantis tried and failed to kill it and eventually gave up; from that point on Ive added a few wrasses, and a lyretail anthias. It seems that once a single hard to kill fish breaks the mantis' spirit for fish capture, that's it. I haven't tried benthic fish though. obviously no crustacean killers like big wrasses, puffers or triggers.

if you're thinking of corals, note well that you cannot have high lighting on your tank. Odontodactylids are susceptible to shell rot which is caused by overexposure to light; males are even more susceptible. You could easily keep the lowest light SPS, most LPS and softies though. That said, I went against the grain and have a 48" t5ho and a 250W halide; this would generally be considered too much, but I've figured out where the mantis stays 95% of the time so I just reconfigured my rockwork carefully such that he is in the shade from the majority of the light in that area. Once you know your animal, careful planning may allow you to accomplish out of the ordinary things for a mantis tank.

here's a link from the authority on mantis shrimp, Dr. Roy Caldwell. I'm not sure if you've found the mantis shrimp forum on RC, but he posts there and there is a lot of good info there.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/species.php?name=o_scyllarus

you'll notice I threw in a lot of anecdotal evidence; usuallly not my style, but mantids are very peckish creatures. what you experience WILL vary individual by individual. you couldn't pick a more personable creature that doesn't have a spine. whooo, long post. let me know any other Qs

edit: i apologize if ive made it sound more complicated than it is. long story short, they are hard to kill animals, have very little in terms of demands, yet are very rewarding pets. Also, if you look up their actual biology a bit, you will be amazed. i guarantee it.

Thanks! Great info.

She just wants the mantis and no fish in the tank. This is really just a mantis tank. The Seahorses are just something she also has wanted but not for this tank--I misunderstood. No corals, just a bit of macro algae and no more than a CF bulb. This is really just a Mantis tank.

I think we will go acrylic and custom made. Would you think a 2'x2' cube is enough or too small?

Do they like deep sand? I assume yes.

Im sure there will be more questions later on.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I totally agree with justinl. I have too many mantis shrimp to start listing! My general rule about putting things in my mantis tank, is that if I don't want it to be food, I wont add it, however each shrimp is an individual!

Just try to use an acrylic tank, or at LEAST a 30G glass with an acrylic bottom. They are great animals, great pets if in a species tank and respected!

Definitely research more before purchasing one though! They are misunderstood because many ppl don't learn to understand them!

Thanks.

I am thinking I will grab some 1/2" acrylic and make a nice rimless tank for it and I assume they need a lid? Do they ever try to escape?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Also, if you look up their actual biology a bit, you will be amazed. i guarantee it.

Any suggestions of where I can do this? I have been searching the web but not come up with much.

[sunce_22]

Its not that mine have ever TRIED escaping? (I have three peacocks) However they will sometimes get excited and swim at the top at such a high speed that they will come out of the water... Mine havnt come out far, but they can.

I would definately put some sort of canopy on top that covers the top.
Do not use a heater that has the little red light inside it. I recommend Stealth heaters because they have a black protective layer on top that is nearly shatterproof and will not tempt them by the light.

I dont use a fine grain sand, because they dig often and I dont want the sand to A.) cave back in so they are constantly digging because that can lead to water quality changing!

Put in big pieces of live rock and small rubble. They love to redecorate, and small pieces are easy to move. When they molt they will also close their burrow with these pieces.

I feed my mantis shrimp live food only because I like to give them the exercise (I have heard if mantis dont use their raptorial appendages [smashers] that eventually they can lose them in a molt)

Sorry Im rambling and could go on and on!... Hope that helps.
P.S. a 2' by 2' cube would be good amount of space if its made of acrylic for safety measures.

[sunce_22]

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/

That is a great website for species profiles and has links to great informational site as well.

Roy Caldwell is an expert on these shrimp (technically stomatopods) he he he

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Its not that mine have ever TRIED escaping? (I have three peacocks) However they will sometimes get excited and swim at the top at such a high speed that they will come out of the water... Mine havnt come out far, but they can.

I would definately put some sort of canopy on top that covers the top.
Do not use a heater that has the little red light inside it. I recommend Stealth heaters because they have a black protective layer on top that is nearly shatterproof and will not tempt them by the light.

I dont use a fine grain sand, because they dig often and I dont want the sand to A.) cave back in so they are constantly digging because that can lead to water quality changing!

Put in big pieces of live rock and small rubble. They love to redecorate, and small pieces are easy to move. When they molt they will also close their burrow with these pieces.

I feed my mantis shrimp live food only because I like to give them the exercise (I have heard if mantis dont use their raptorial appendages [smashers] that eventually they can lose them in a molt)

Sorry Im rambling and could go on and on!... Hope that helps.
P.S. a 2' by 2' cube would be good amount of space if its made of acrylic for safety measures.

This is great info, thanks.

The tank would be acrylic for sure because I don't trust myself building a tank out of glass :)

[sunce_22]

Its great to see someone getting into mantis shrimp. Whenever I see them, they make me blush! The peacocks in J&L are beautiful for sure

[justinl]

yup, +1, a 2ft cube would make a great mantis tank.

Peacocks don't really make burrows in the sand. They make their burrows under the rocks, preferably in a close fitting U shaped cave; If i give my mantis more than two opening in his burrow, he will seal up one of the holes. A 2 inch sandbed will suffice, but you're welcome to go deeper.

Escaping, in theory, would seem to to be an issue. Mantis shrimp have astoundingly fast escape responses. You know how fast a squid can jet away? well a mantis beats that and can keep up this ridiculous speed for quite a distance too. Dr. roy has witnessed large O. scyllarus clear over 6 inches of air. So, in light of that, imo, rimless is a bad idea unless you don't fill the tank the whole way (which certainly is an option if you don't have to worry about plumbing into an overflow). A lid isn't really necessary, but an open topped canopy perhaps? For the record, my peacock hasn't done much more than just barely break the surface of the water.

I refuse to believe SSB can ever go anoxic and cause water quality issues, but that's a whole other can of beans. Most keepers use a fine grain sand bed and Dr. roy has noted that using rough substrate like crushed coral can wear at the mantis' pleopods and will eventually cause the colour to fade until the next molt; no real effect on the mantis except aesthetics.

ah yes, LR rubble is a vital element in a mantis tank. they will use rubble and shells of their former victims to redecorate their burrow often. I know no corals are in the plan, but without rubble, a mantis will often use frags or crack pieces off of the rockwork instead.

food, might as well cover this now. variety is key. three marine fleshy meats (they aren't picky) or more. soaking in a supplement like selcon once in a while is recommended. No need to over feed, at most every two days. you'll figure how much a mantis will eat as it will throw the leftovers out. I'm sure you'll have no trouble covering this section easily enough. I'm sure you'll have no trouble covering this section easily enough. Live foods are necessary just to ensure that the mantis uses its raptorial appendages (rapts aka smashing arms) once in a while. If they do not, they will tear them off eventually; although they grow back in a few molts, it's pretty stressing. At least a few turbos a month, nothing major. nothing with big claws for obvious reasons.

[justinl]

here's a few random sources of stomatopod info that should keep you occupied for a while...

lots to get you started here
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/aquarius/index.html

and here. particularly under "stomatopod biology"
http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/




here's the RC forum. lots of hidden gems posted by Dr. Roy if you're willing to dig for them. take a look at his photo gallery too while you're at it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=37

here's a good one:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1603180




here's my favourite video (taken by Dr. Caldwell). if you're familiar with the danger of a blue ring octopus the significance will not be lost on you.
http://www.reefcentral.com/vid/bluering/bluering_content.html

before animal ethics police gets on my tail, read this thread regarding the vid.
http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7366

now leave me alone, im goin to sleep! :D

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

WOW Justin Thanks!

This is a great start! I think I may be starting to get more and more into this whole Mantis thing. Which is good because when my fiance says she wants a Mantis, it means she wants to watch it and feed it but not do water changes or any other real maintenance ;)

They are super cool!

[es355lucille]

If she is still wanting both seahorses and mantis shrimp, I see a dual build coming! If you do an acrlyic could you make it a bit bigger and have two in one (partitioned .....sharing water/skimmer/mechanical filtration etc)?

just a thought:biggrin:


She wants to know if she can keep Seahorses with the "cute little Shrimp".

*Sigh* This is going to be fun :neutral:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

If she is still wanting both seahorses and mantis shrimp, I see a dual build coming! If you do an acrlyic could you make it a bit bigger and have two in one (partitioned .....sharing water/skimmer/mechanical filtration etc)?

just a thought:biggrin:

Well I could....

Or I can just do what I did and tell her she has to choose one ;)

She chose the shrimp.

[sitandwatch]

I like the split tank idea, you should give her that option ;)

[es355lucille]

Come on! let her on the computer and we will help her decide!

LOL, just kidding......you are going to have enough maintenace work by the look of things.


Well I could....

Or I can just do what I did and tell her she has to choose one ;)

She chose the shrimp.

[karazy]

sounds like a cool build, but have you considered any other mantises?

if you wanted something smaller and maybe a little less beautiful, you could go with Pseudosquilla ciliata

but one mantis to really look at is Gonodactylus smithii. smithii mantises are very beautiful,
and i know I've seen some that look alot nicer than peacocks. we have a really cool blue one at our shop right now actually :)

just something to consider

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

sounds like a cool build, but have you considered any other mantises?

if you wanted something smaller and maybe a little less beautiful, you could go with Pseudosquilla ciliata

but one mantis to really look at is Gonodactylus smithii. smithii mantises are very beautiful,
and i know I've seen some that look alot nicer than peacocks. we have a really cool blue one at our shop right now actually :)

just something to consider

I can pass that option along but its not me who even wants the Mantis. My fiance is pretty much set on a Peacock Mantis I think. She has kind of wanted one for a long time now...she just hadn't brought it up again until last night when she told me she is going to set up her own tank for one...meaning I am setting a tank up for one ;)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I like the split tank idea, you should give her that option ;)

No.

Come on! let her on the computer and we will help her decide!

LOL, just kidding......you are going to have enough maintenace work by the look of things.

I may get her to join eventually but for now, she is just reading all the links.

[brizzo]

No.

You're cooold! :razz:


So when are you starting the tank build, and are you going to tie it into your main system? I'm kind of curious where you plan to put it in your condo

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

You're cooold! :razz:


So when are you starting the tank build, and are you going to tie it into your main system? I'm kind of curious where you plan to put it in your condo

No it won't be part of the main tank. I was thinking of doing that and having it right beside the big tank but I think it would ruin how nice the big tank looks on its own.

Not sure where its going yet to be honest.

And I'm not coooold...I just don't want to have to take care of a bunch of tanks :wink:

[fiorano]

i wouldnt go any smaller than a 30 gallon for a peacock. they're a pretty active mantis

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

i wouldnt go any smaller than a 30 gallon for a peacock. they're a pretty active mantis

Well the idea (as mentioned) is a 2'x2' cube which is a 56G tank, so I think it will be fine. I may shave some off the height to make it a bit smaller but most have said the height shouldn't matter much. Might go 24"x24"x18".

[justinl]

Might go 24"x24"x18".

I would actually encourage this over a true 2ft cube. 18" just makes maintenance a lot easier on the arms. And yes, as mentioned, footprint is far more important really.

[fiorano]

listen to justinl he knows his mantids lol

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I would actually encourage this over a true 2ft cube. 18" just makes maintenance a lot easier on the arms. And yes, as mentioned, footprint is far more important really.

Ok, cool.

Can I come by and see your mantis one of these days? I am very curious to see what I am getting into...or what my fiance is getting me into :)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

listen to justinl he knows his mantids lol

Well I think you were right too, that they need at least a 30G to be happy. They do get a decent size.

When you were saying active, what do you mean by that? Are they nocturnal? Or will they be out and about during the day? In an aquarium?

I ask because I have kept many 'nocturnal' fishes that are not so nocturnal in captivity. Like puffers.

[justinl]

Sure you're welcome over any time. ...well, as long as im not at school or work of course. pm sent.

Some mantids are nocturnal but the vast majority are diurnal; O. scyllarus is no exception. Or more accurately, it is crepuscular. I find it is most active in the morning when the light is not its brightest; sometimes active after lights out but not often. I admit it is hard to define activity in a mantis as they will mostly stay in the burrow, wait for you to come see them and then (if they know you are the bringer of food) they will come out to the glass and wait for food for a minute. Or, you might walk up to the aquarium and it will be walking around on the sand; when it notices you it will run back to its burrow and watch you. A large amount of joy mantis keepers get is the undeniable awareness that they receive from a mantis; it is an odd feeling to see a mantis track your movements, completely aware of you. they judge you with their eyes. :eek:

[spoot]

Take a look at this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTTIg7HY80

[urbanhellfire]

Take a look at this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTTIg7HY80

That was very cool :eek:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Take a look at this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTTIg7HY80

Wow! Thanks Newt, thats some amazing footage they have of the Mantis striking. 45MPH under water. Incredible.

So have you guys observed what she says about the shrimps behavior before they molt in your tanks? Do they get "obnoxious" and start smashing everything in sight? Do they then start to wave and signal during their molt as a bluff?

[The Codfather]

I do not see any difference in thier behavior, mine are mad all the time. As soon as i approach the tank, they signal and threaten. Until they relize i am there to feed them. Then they swim to the surface and patiently wait for their meal.

[sitandwatch]

That was a really cool video, and I am glad that I removed the one from my tank.

I think a specimen tank would be really cool one day.

[brizzo]

I sure do love Ted.com videos. Very good lectures!

[justinl]

I believe that domestication from long term captivity has changed the animals we keep... typical pre-molt behaviour by most mantids I've heard about from other keepers mostly just includes renovation of their burrow (increased digging, rubble collecting and rearrangement, chipping at burrow to make it bigger); increased strikes towards anything live hasn't really been noted in home aquaria. This is where i believe domestication has come into play; no threat present so no need for such energy expenditure. They also tend to stop accepting food shortly before a molt too. For some, no noticeable behaviour changes occur at all. Generally, aggressiveness depends on the individual. As for the bluffing, I believe she meant that they do this after the molt. They typically hole up in their burrow during the actual molt and stay there until sufficiently calcified (hardened); some even use a piece of rock to cover the burrow entrance at this time. I haven't noticed this behaviour post-molt but i could imagine does exist; I know it usually takes at least a couple days for a thick shelled arthropod shell to fully harden. I'll have to pay more attention to this.

while we're on the topic of molting, general practice during a molt is simple: leave the thing alone. This is a stressful time for any arthropod and the best thing you can do is nothing. Mantids can hole up for days to weeks (depending on size and species) and poking around during the molting event can easily kill it just by shock. best to stave off water changes unless water quality really calls for it too. After the molt, you might find the old carapace on the sand; leave it for a couple days because the mantis usually eats it. For the same reason, it is best not to feed a mantis for a few days after a molt; don't worry, it won't starve. Some species bury their old cuticle, but Odontodactylids do that less often i believe. You'll almost always find the heavily calcified heels laying around since they're too hard to eat. further on this:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=963909

for the record, since Dr. Patek gave that talk, their opinions on the meral saddle has changed. Dr. Roy made a post a while ago stating that they no longer believe the saddle serves as a spring as a energy store for the strike but rather a spring to cushion the blow after it has been made. This had not been published at the time; not sure if it has by now.