Copperband (pls. close)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Before I get into this, I just want to start by saying this is not a thread to start a big debate in. I just want to share my last experience with Copperband Butterfly fish and hope something can be learned from yet another of my personal mistakes.

I had already tried 4-5 in the past few years (sad I can't remember exactly). All eating just fine and in most cases very well. All gained weight, looked great and died within months of acquiring them. All showed no signs of health problem until the DAY of death. The last one did seem to deteriorate over a weeks time but never really looked too bad until the end. Every time I can remember they ended up with some kind of internal rupturing (very evident from the bruises) in the exact same area each time. Usually also cloudy eyes.

Reluctantly I tried another because I found one from a members tank who had had it for a few months and it looked great. This was the only way I was willing to ever try one again. Its been a month now or so. He eats prawns, mussels, clams, mysis, ect. Even picks at nori. He had been gaining weight quite rapidly the past few weeks.

Tonight he suddenly showing the exact same symptoms. This morning he looked great, ate all day long and tonight he is having a very hard time swimming, bumping into everything, being blown around by powerheads and mostly unresponsive. He also has the same bruises suddenly on his side.

Needless to say, he is on his way out. I will most likely put him down if he is still the same in the morning as I have seen this too many times now and know the outcome. They do not recover.

I would go ahead and say what I believe is the cause (I think most people know) but lately it doesn't seem like a good idea around here and I simply don't want this to begin another debate. Especially since its not something I can prove.

I just hope that one day soon people do start to realize how tough these fish are to keep and they become less common. Please don't make the mistake I have made. Don't wait until 5 have died in your tank to stop buying them. I am by no means an expert fish keeper but fish simply do not die in my tanks the past few years unless they have jumped or are Copperband Butterflies/Scissor Gobies.

The worst part of it all is how attached I got to this one. I guess I had it in my head that this was finally the one that would make it. Its been devastating tonight to sit by the tank and watch this happen. I also feel I let the member I bought him from down as I had promised a good home to his clearly loved "pet". It wasn't an easy thing for him to let this fish go and I just wish I could have done more.

I have pictures and may post them eventually.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

If there has been one thing about this experience that really has been amazing its the way my Naso tang has responded to the Copperband tonight. He has not left his side. I thought at first it was coincidence but I have now observed him "laying" or hovering beside the copperband for hours. If the copperband moves, he follows. He even chased my Yellow tang away just now when the yellow got too close to the Copperband.

I have snapped some pics and will post them. Although amazing to see the Naso act this way, they are very sad pictures :(

The Naso has never shown any interest or bond with the Copperband until it was not feeling well tonight.

[andestang]

Thats interesting, as I also have a CB and he chums around with my Hippo tank. They stay together all the time. Sad to hear about yours :(

If there has been one thing about this experience that really has been amazing its the way my Naso tang has responded to the Copperband tonight. He has not left his side. I thought at first it was coincidence but I have now observed him "laying" or hovering beside the copperband for hours. If the copperband moves, he follows. He even chased my Yellow tang away just now when the yellow got too close to the Copperband.

I have snapped some pics and will post them. Although amazing to see the Naso act this way, they are very sad pictures :(

The Naso has never shown any interest or bond with the Copperband until it was not feeling well tonight.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

So he passed away about 30 mins. after my last post last night. I got ready for bed and when I came back to check the tank, he was dead...the Naso still right by his side.

Another thing I noticed was that he got extremely skinny within that 2-3 hour period where his health declined and he passed. I am not exaggerating, it was about 2-3 hours. He looked great just hours before--and this isn't the first time I have had one suddenly deteriorate this fast and I remember the last thread when I had one die like this many, many people chimed in saying they had experienced the exact same thing...something is not right.

Anyways, here are a few pictures with approx. times to show how incredible the Naso's actions were. I am still amazed by him. It very well may just have been curiosity but in many of the pics, you can actually see him looking down at the dying copperband. I can also tell you he was chasing off any other fish from the tank that came anywhere close to the copperband.

Approx. 12pm

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Justinpsmith/bbbbbbb006-1.jpg

Approx. 1am

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Justinpsmith/bbbbbbb007.jpg

Approx. 2:00am (still alive but unable to swim)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Justinpsmith/bbbbbbb034.jpg

Approx. 2:45am (Copperband dead) (Naso had not left his side and this is NOT where he usually sleeps..after I took the copperband out, the Naso left to go to bed)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Justinpsmith/bbbbbbb021.jpg

[levi1803]

wow that is pretty sad, sorry to hear about losing your fish. That's amazing that the tang wouldn't leave it's side, makes you think they know something is going on.

[banditpowdercoat]

Damn, thats sad and cool at the same time. Copperbands are so beautifull. But alas, I will not get one. If you can't keep them alive, I sure aint gona be able to

[es355lucille]

Sorry for your loss. That was a very beautiful fish.:cry:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

wow that is pretty sad, sorry to hear about losing your fish. That's amazing that the tang wouldn't leave it's side, makes you think they know something is going on.

I KNOW he knew something was going on. I have never seen him hang out anywhere near the copperband in the past or pay him any attention before this. Its not like they had been "buddies" prior to this. As soon as the Copperband started to look bad down in that corner, he never left his side. I thought maybe coincidence until I saw him chase a few fish out of the area. He never does that. I had never seen my Naso chase any other fish in the tank before.

Damn, thats sad and cool at the same time. Copperbands are so beautifull. But alas, I will not get one. If you can't keep them alive, I sure aint gona be able to

It is sad but yet amazing at the same time.

Sorry for your loss. That was a very beautiful fish.:cry:

Thanks. He was a beautiful fish and seemed to be the healthiest I had ever kept. He ate so well and was super active. Its amazing how quickly things can change for no apparent reason.

[workn2hard2day]

:sad:

[Treebeard]

Such a beautiful fish! That is really sad.

[my2rotties]

Why my angels died of seemingly the same symptoms you describe, my naso was the exact same way with them. She is such a sensitive and caring fish. She protects the small fish and is the one that seems to let me know something might be wrong (case of the angels). When the first of my angels, the baby majestic fell ill, she swam on the other side of my hand as I tried to swim the angel around in hopes of helping. She was clearly upset when I finally had to take him out to QT.

If there has been one thing about this experience that really has been amazing its the way my Naso tang has responded to the Copperband tonight. He has not left his side. I thought at first it was coincidence but I have now observed him "laying" or hovering beside the copperband for hours. If the copperband moves, he follows. He even chased my Yellow tang away just now when the yellow got too close to the Copperband.

I have snapped some pics and will post them. Although amazing to see the Naso act this way, they are very sad pictures :(

The Naso has never shown any interest or bond with the Copperband until it was not feeling well tonight.

[my2rotties]

Sorry for your loss, I just saw what happened after I replied. My angels seemed to waste away in a matter of a couple of hours too. I was told it is a species specific bacteria that only effects large species angels. Maybe this might be so with the CBB as well. If so, if you can get the fish out ASAP and treat it with anti biotic, they will come through. I was told sometimes you need to treat the 2-3 times until the build an immunity to the bacteria on their own. I thought the same thing about what you think is killing your CBBs... but my hunting and research has turned me to see it was more then likely a bacterial infection that killed my fish.

I'm not saying this might be so in your case, but it might be worth looking into a little more.

[PoonTang]

Very sad. I have heard somewhere that Butterfly's mate for life and if the pair is broken up for whatever reason then the mate is doomed. If this is true then I wonder how many of these fish die of a "broken heart". Is there any difference in survival if you get them when they are still really small? say before they would have had a chance to pair bond.

[pinkjello]

:cry:

I am so sorry for your loss. Animals are wonderful creatures..and they can amaze us with things we would and could never imagine. I find it amazing that during his death the other one was continuously by his side (or her side)..but he/she knew that the other one was sick. Thats one great wonder of nature right there!

[pinkjello]

and you know..the one that was dying wasnt alone...

i saw a pufferfish the other day at a store..porcupine..he was ill you could tell, sitting in the corner of this huge tank all by himself, when i looked at him his eyes slowly looked straight at me..i couldnt help but get misty eyed..it was just the way he looked at me. If i could have stayed there with him i would have - but of course that would have looked silly! I kind of said under my breath.."your not alone"..i had to leave the store it bothered me so much..

sorry for the sad note..:cry:

[Delphinus]

I really don't know what to say. I'm very sorry.

[Myka]

I have three things to say:

1. 5? 5?!!
2. Cyanide.
3. Very interesting about the Naso.

Oh, and ever since I first saw a picture of a CBB in a book probably in the late 80s I wanted one sosososossooooooooooo bad, and when I found out about how generally hopeless it is to keep CBBs long term, I was crushed. My sw goal from so long ago is one I won't attempt. Not unless something changes.

[Trigger Man]

Sorry about your CBB loss, they are really great looking fish, wish I could get one but I know how difficult they are (from past experience) and my current fish mix would not allow for a CBB to even have a chance.

[fishoholic]

Sorry for your loss. Very odd and sad how quickly your CBB went downhill. I got my CBB 2 years ago and have never had any problems with him, however I know many people who can't keep one no matter how hard they try. I did try to get another CBB last summer but it was from a bad source but I thought I could save him but he died 2 days later.

Very cool though how your Naso stayed with him.

[TheRealBigAL]

Sorry that sucks :sad:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

1. 5? 5?!!
2. Cyanide.


1.Yes five and Im very glad you were kind enough to explain how you would never have tried yourself.

2.I used to jump to this conclusion too but its not at all fair unless you can start to provide some proof. I think my2rotties is right when she says it could have been but easily could be some kind of bacterial problem that copperband gets in captivity. We just don't know...

Not to mention I stated right from the beginning I didn't want this to turn into a debate about what happened to it. Why am I not surprised it did...

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Thanks everyone for all the very kind words and the PM's. This one seems to be especially hard lose. I am really touched that so many people messaged me with such kind words of encouragement and even one offer of a CCB that has been in their tank for a few years! I can't accept that offer but WOW! What a great community to be a part of :wink:

[Myka]

1.Yes five and Im very glad you were kind enough to explain how you would never have tried yourself.

2.I used to jump to this conclusion too but its not at all fair unless you can start to provide some proof. I think my2rotties is right when she says it could have been but easily could be some kind of bacterial problem that copperband gets in captivity. We just don't know...

Not to mention I stated right from the beginning I didn't want this to turn into a debate about what happened to it. Why am I not surprised it did...


Well, you can't control people's thoughts on the subject, and it is public, so conversations often end up off on something you didn't want/expect. Imo, it really should be a conversation (not a debate...we have no proof, and I don't think you're getting an autopsy?? lol) about what happened to the fish. I find it very interesting that you have had 5 die with very similar symptoms. It really makes me want that autopsy!! Do you still have the body? Did you happen to freeze it? I wonder where an autopsy could be done and what the associated cost would be? I'm willing to put a certain amount of money into that if it's a possibility (an not an atrocious cost).

We will never be able to keep fish like these (that don't seen to have a significant reason for dying, like starvation) if we don't find out what is happening to them. I have a MAJOR soft spot for CBBs, and I would really really really like to see a brighter future for the captive keeping of CBBs.

[leezard]

Sorry to hear of the trouble. I read through the post, and was know that you didn't want to create a debate.... but curiosity always kills THIS cat:

2.I used to jump to this conclusion too but its not at all fair unless you can start to provide some proof. I think my2rotties is right when she says it could have been but easily could be some kind of bacterial problem that copperband gets in captivity. We just don't know...

Can you explain this to me? Or point me in the general direction of reading material on the subject?

Thanks!

[my2rotties]

For what it's worth this is what I was told when I dug deeper to find out the cause of death of my angels...

Many fish have this bacteria but already have immunity to it, then some fish do not, especially large angels. Fish come from all parts of the ocean and they are all exposed to different bacteria, some tolerate, some don't. When fish are collected they are all put together so the bacteria spreads like a cold. Again some build immunity and some do not... some fight it for awhile, but stress due to transport and all that they go through lowers their immune response.

If a new fish is brought home and put into QT, it might be fine until it is put into the display. Then they are exposed to the bacteria within the system. Some get sick right away and some can fight it, then some will either fight it or die. The person that gave me this info is a very trusted source and I consider his word gospel. I spent well over an hour speaking to him about this entire thing and if you do not treat a sick fish, it will die in 2-3 days, sometimes less depending on the health of the fish. If it is in a smaller system you can notice the symptoms and treat it. If the fish is in a large tank it is hard to be able to tell, until it is too late, As in GSP's case and my case.

Sometimes the fish will get this bacteria three times and if it is treated, it will build immunity and get well. From what I have learned about this, I am adding a 90g tank to my system, which will house any new fish and expose them to my water supply. If the fish shows symptoms, I will be able to cut off the water and treat the bacteria.

I asked if this bacteria would die, if it did not have the species that are susceptible to it in the system. I was told no, since all fish have this bacteria. Perhaps GSP's CBB had enough tolerance to it until he was moved into a new system and stress battered down his immune system. I could be wrong but it is not far fetched. The only way this baceteria might not survive is if all sand was removed from the system where it could breed easily and reproduce. He does not believe in having any substrate on tank bottoms. He compared sand bottoms and bare bottoms to having tile and carpet... Of course carpet holds things inside and tile can be easily wiped clean.

I cannot removed all the sand from my system, but the 90g acclimation tank will have a bare bottom and live rock. I am not planning on adding any fish anytime soon, but will enjoy the bonus 90g of water for my overall system water quality. If I end up with a sick fish or a fish that needs to be removed, it can stay down there until I figure out what to do with it. I have the option to cut off water supply and treat disease or just run all my water through it.

My angels did not die in vain and I learned many lessons from it. Now I will always do things differently and learned about mystery deaths that can usually be treated. All the symptoms GSP mentioned happened to my angels word for word... I had one of the fish examined by this person I went to and he was able to make diagnosis of it...

All these symptoms are the same as cyanide poisoning.

I am not going to get into a debate about this with any one. Perhaps I am a dummy to even post anything about it, but if it can help someone else, I felt it was worth while to make mention of it... I am done for now, and hope I don't get my butt kicked for saying anything.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Well, you can't control people's thoughts on the subject, and it is public, so conversations often end up off on something you didn't want/expect. Imo, it really should be a conversation (not a debate...we have no proof, and I don't think you're getting an autopsy?? lol) about what happened to the fish. I find it very interesting that you have had 5 die with very similar symptoms. It really makes me want that autopsy!! Do you still have the body? Did you happen to freeze it? I wonder where an autopsy could be done and what the associated cost would be? I'm willing to put a certain amount of money into that if it's a possibility (an not an atrocious cost).

We will never be able to keep fish like these (that don't seen to have a significant reason for dying, like starvation) if we don't find out what is happening to them. I have a MAJOR soft spot for CBBs, and I would really really really like to see a brighter future for the captive keeping of CBBs.

Your right but I am just a little upset about this one right now and don't have the energy to debate or discuss what happened. Im probably a little cranky now too since he passed just before 3am last night and I ended up not sleeping until 5am since I was actually quite upset. The last time I felt this way about a pet dying was my dog 4 years ago. I don't know why this one has been so rough.

On top of that I spent a day away from work today to go pick up a frag from a group order and mine was the only one NOT to arrive. Its been a bit of a trying day to say the least.

Well since we have started to talk about it, yes I am quite sure these are signs of cyanide poisoning. I have done so much research now and I would be very surprised if it were not a ruptured liver.

The only way to test now for cyanide is to blend the fish and do the tests in a lab with very expensive equipment. Not something most of us have access to or could afford.

He is frozen in the freezer now but I will not be cutting him up.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Sorry to hear of the trouble. I read through the post, and was know that you didn't want to create a debate.... but curiosity always kills THIS cat:



Can you explain this to me? Or point me in the general direction of reading material on the subject?

Thanks!

Oh I don't know what I can explain...all I meant by that is it could have been anything that killed the CBB and we'll never know. Which is true but I was just being difficult. I just didn't want to bring up cyanide although I am sure thats the problem here, because it leads to some very nasty debates. Many people do not believe cyanide is used.

Last year after diving in the Philippines and seeing it first hand, I can tell you 100% it is used.

At MACNA last year, one of the well respected speakers (don't know his name) estimated that 1/3 of all aquarium trade fish come from the Philippines and 3/4 of them are cyanide caught. Is this true? Don't know...but it wouldn't surprise me.

Again though, lets not turn this into a huge debate. I feel its good to share these problems for others to learn but the exact cause shouldn't be a sticking point here...the fact is that I have a very healthy aquarium with thriving fish and this species dies everytime in the exact same manner.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

For what it's worth this is what I was told when I dug deeper to find out the cause of death of my angels...

Many fish have this bacteria but already have immunity to it, then some fish do not, especially large angels. Fish come from all parts of the ocean and they are all exposed to different bacteria, some tolerate, some don't. When fish are collected they are all put together so the bacteria spreads like a cold. Again some build immunity and some do not... some fight it for awhile, but stress due to transport and all that they go through lowers their immune response.

If a new fish is brought home and put into QT, it might be fine until it is put into the display. Then they are exposed to the bacteria within the system. Some get sick right away and some can fight it, then some will either fight it or die. The person that gave me this info is a very trusted source and I consider his word gospel. I spent well over an hour speaking to him about this entire thing and if you do not treat a sick fish, it will die in 2-3 days, sometimes less depending on the health of the fish. If it is in a smaller system you can notice the symptoms and treat it. If the fish is in a large tank it is hard to be able to tell, until it is too late, As in GSP's case and my case.

Sometimes the fish will get this bacteria three times and if it is treated, it will build immunity and get well. From what I have learned about this, I am adding a 90g tank to my system, which will house any new fish and expose them to my water supply. If the fish shows symptoms, I will be able to cut off the water and treat the bacteria.

I asked if this bacteria would die, if it did not have the species that are susceptible to it in the system. I was told no, since all fish have this bacteria. Perhaps GSP's CBB had enough tolerance to it until he was moved into a new system and stress battered down his immune system. I could be wrong but it is not far fetched. The only way this baceteria might not survive is if all sand was removed from the system where it could breed easily and reproduce. He does not believe in having any substrate on tank bottoms. He compared sand bottoms and bare bottoms to having tile and carpet... Of course carpet holds things inside and tile can be easily wiped clean.

I cannot removed all the sand from my system, but the 90g acclimation tank will have a bare bottom and live rock. I am not planning on adding any fish anytime soon, but will enjoy the bonus 90g of water for my overall system water quality. If I end up with a sick fish or a fish that needs to be removed, it can stay down there until I figure out what to do with it. I have the option to cut off water supply and treat disease or just run all my water through it.

My angels did not die in vain and I learned many lessons from it. Now I will always do things differently and learned about mystery deaths that can usually be treated. All the symptoms GSP mentioned happened to my angels word for word... I had one of the fish examined by this person I went to and he was able to make diagnosis of it...

All these symptoms are the same as cyanide poisoning.

I am not going to get into a debate about this with any one. Perhaps I am a dummy to even post anything about it, but if it can help someone else, I felt it was worth while to make mention of it... I am done for now, and hope I don't get my butt kicked for saying anything.

Thank you for posting this :)

[my2rotties]

You are very welcome...:smilecol:

I cannot say if this is what happened to your poor fish, but this happened to mine. I thought it was cyanide poisoning too. It is an easy way to perhaps make the death acceptable since you think there is nothing that could be done. I found the info I had received from this source to be very viable and it makes total sense. Humans get viruses all the time and some people end up getting so sick and can die. Some of us are stronger and have a better immune system then others... I honestly believe fish can be the same. Many fish get ich when they are stressed out, so that can also be so with bacterial diseases as well... it all made sense to me.

Now I will always do things very differently with how they are introduced into my system and how I will treat them if they do get ill. I also get a 90g bonus tank for more water volume that can be made into a hospital tank with the turn of a couple of ball valves and adding a skimmer and such.:biggrin:

Thank you for posting this :)

[Marlin65]

Sorry to hear about you loss.:sad:
I had two blue spot jaw fish die on me without any real reason so know how you feel.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

You are very welcome...:smilecol:

I cannot say if this is what happened to your poor fish, but this happened to mine. I thought it was cyanide poisoning too. It is an easy way to perhaps make the death acceptable since you think there is nothing that could be done. I found the info I had received from this source to be very viable and it makes total sense. Humans get viruses all the time and some people end up getting so sick and can die. Some of us are stronger and have a better immune system then others... I honestly believe fish can be the same. Many fish get ich when they are stressed out, so that can also be so with bacterial diseases as well... it all made sense to me.

Now I will always do things very differently with how they are introduced into my system and how I will treat them if they do get ill. I also get a 90g bonus tank for more water volume that can be made into a hospital tank with the turn of a couple of ball valves and adding a skimmer and such.:biggrin:

Good to hear. I wish I had room for a prober hospital tank.

Sorry to hear about you loss.:sad:
I had two blue spot jaw fish die on me without any real reason so know how you feel.

Ya its sucks, huh? :cry:

[my2rotties]

The bad thing with all of this is it is impossible to catch a fish in my display... When I am able to catch the fish it is already to late to be of any help. I am not too sure if it is possible for you to catch fish within your display or not.

I am very fortunate to have the space, and a very handy husband that can build anything... as well as a friend that is practically giving me the 90g tank and sump that comes with it. I was going to get new glass for my 44g bowfront and he offered me the larger tank instead...

I really feed bad for you since I know how hard it is to lose a fish, especially one asd endearing as a CBB...

Good to hear. I wish I had room for a prober hospital tank.



Ya its sucks, huh? :cry:

[Lance]

So sorry. Losing a fish really sucks! I feel for you man.

[untamed]

I only tried one CBB...and lost him within a week. I like the bacterial theory.

[hipp77]

Sorry to hear that you lost your fish. This may help others that are thinking of getting a CBB, myself included.

[hillegom]

After reading this post, I won't ever buy a CBB.
Sorry for your loss

[leezard]

Yet another noob question.... where would the cyanide poisoning come from (if that's what is actually is)?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Yet another noob question.... where would the cyanide poisoning come from (if that's what is actually is)?

Any country that collects fish for the trade. But most likely Philippines and its becoming more and more common in Indonesia now too.

They put cyanide in little squirt bottles to take on collection dives. When the fish get scared and hide in the rocks or coral heads, they squirt cyanide into their hiding spot to stun them and the fish float out. Estimates are that about half die right away and half are just stunned for the time being. But of that half that actually are collected, many still are way too weak to make it to land even. The rest often die in our tanks. The cyanide does not stay in the fishes system long at all. It actually gone relatively fast but it leaves behind permanent damage. Perfect for these collectors. The fish will appear healthy and survive until it gets to someones tank. What you don't know is that this fish has a damaged liver or other internal organs and is actually dying slowly. It can take months.

National Geographic put out a study saying that for every one cyanide fish that is caught and makes it to our tanks, a square meter of reef is destroyed--the cyanide kills the corals too of course. Kills inverts, kills mostly everything it comes in contact with. It does dissipate quite quickly in saltwater, so that saves the area from being completely destroyed but after years and years of this, the reefs in some area of the Philippines are looking rough from all the cyanide exposure. I have seen this first hand.

In fact last year we were on a dive in the Philippines and came across what must have been hundreds of very healthy looking dead fish on the bottom of one area of a reef. I was really confused and it was such a sad sight. Of course my dad and I asked after what it was and our guide told us it was nothing...tried to brush it off. We persisted and eventually he admitted it was cyanide fishing and that these collectors had been now moving into tourist areas even. They come early in the morning before anyone was out there and then disappear. My dad got a lot of info out of him about cyanide poisoning. He pretty much said it was rampant around the islands and that no one cared.

Its a big issue that not too many people want to admit is happening and even less can or will do anything about it. You've seen what happens when its brought up here ;)

[naesco]

After reading this post, I won't ever buy a CBB.
Sorry for your loss

Great decision hillegom.

It is very sad for me to see posters asking for information of a very difficult species and the only ones who care to post are those that have been lucky enough to keep them for a while.
Those who have repeatedly attempted to keep them and fail do not post their lack of success for some reason.

I applaud GSP for having the courage to do so and you who have made an informed decision based on his post.
Wayne

[leezard]

I'll admit that I was very and horribly discouraged about the saltwater hobby in general when I heard about the cyanide "traps". I really had no idea. I find wild caught is bad enough, but that story just kills me.

I talked to one of the staff at a LFS today about it -- while he knows it still happens, he thinks it's a rare scenario now. I only hope he's right -- else I may just stick with the 20 gallon tank that I have now and not even bother with the big one I dream to have one day....

[fiorano]

thats so sad... my cbb is my favorite fish and if he ever died id actually be depressed hes such a neat happy fish

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

thats so sad... my cbb is my favorite fish and if he ever died id actually be depressed hes such a neat happy fish

Thanks. I kind of felt the same way about this one.

I had tried 4 over the past 6 years--all from stores and vowed never to buy one again from a store. I only tried this one since it was from a members tank and I think I really had it in my head that it would be a long term fish. Its so weird to have a fish that is happy and looks healthy and within hours, can't swim anymore and dies.

[fiorano]

yeah man i can honestly say i feel for you i now how id feel if i lost my buddy alex

[golf nut]

Great decision hillegom.

It is very sad for me to see posters asking for information of a very difficult species and the only ones who care to post are those that have been lucky enough to keep them for a while.
Those who have repeatedly attempted to keep them and fail do not post their lack of success for some reason.

I applaud GSP for having the courage to do so and you who have made an informed decision based on his post.
Wayne

It is very unfortunate in this hobby that we deal with many failures, from discussing this with many retailers and aquarists the failure rate is likely as high as 97%, we do what we can and we learn from each other.

I too applaud GSP on his honesty and willingness to learn and share his experiences.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

It is very unfortunate in this hobby that we deal with many failures, from discussing this with many retailers and aquarists the failure rate is likely as high as 97%, we do what we can and we learn from each other.

I too applaud GSP on his honesty and willingness to learn and share his experiences.

Well as I said earlier, I am not going to tell people not to buy these fish but I just hope other don't make my mistakes and go through 5 of them :(

What I did is not right and not fair to this species.

What I can say I have really learned from this (and has really sunk in finally) is that there are fish I would very much like to keep but just cannot. I need to do a better job of listening to people with more experience than me and do the right thing. I was told by an employee at a LFS after my third CBB not to bother trying again as he said hes been selling them for 10 years or more and a majority of the time the buyer comes back within a month to say it suddenly died. In his opinion, 100% of them were cyanide caught.

No more thinking or hoping I will 'get lucky' and one will survive. I knew it was a bad fish choice over and over again but tried anyways...pretty much once a year, twice within 3 months this time :(

There is no justifiable reason for me to make this hobby more selfish than it already is.

[my2rotties]

The employee at the LFS said these fish are probably caught with cyanide... that is a very serious allegation and I would imagine any reputable store would not buy fish knowing they are caught like this. You said your fish was fine in somebody else's tank until you got it. How do you know it is not something you have within your system?

I had the two angels that died within a week from each bought at the same store. I recall PMing you about the symptoms of cyanide and then after that did a heck of a lot of research and also brought fish bodies for examination... two stores even said it looked like cyanide. Since I seemed to have an answer to the cause of death, I went ahead and bought a young queen angel from a private seller. The fish had been in a tank for a few months and was healthy so I thought it was a safe choice. That fish was dead within ten days in my tank... same symptoms exactly as the others.

I then looked into things much further since this fish was from a totally different store then mine came from. Again I took the fih's body to be examined and got two answers that this could be cyanide or a bacterial disease... I was shown fish at the LFS suffering from the exact same thing as mine, and they were being treated for it...

I know cyanide is an answer we can accept since we do not have to take full responsibility for the deaths. However there can be other reasons aside of this and we should look into those options as well. I have no idea of how much these cyanide tests cost, but perhaps we should have a fund made on canreef to test a fish we suspect is caught like this. I know fish do get caught with it, but unless somebody can prove this is why fish just suddenly up and die, what's the point of talking about it.

So what does it cost and where does it get done? Who wants to put up some money for this, and GSP can get this fish tested since it seems to be cyanide poisoning. Who wants to step up and put a few bucks here and there to get this test done? How many members are here, and how many people care enough to set up a fund and donate to it?

At least perhaps we can see if this fish died form a cyanide or perhaps something else.


Well as I said earlier, I am not going to tell people not to buy these fish but I just hope other don't make my mistakes and go through 5 of them :(

What I did is not right and not fair to this species.

What I can say I have really learned from this (and has really sunk in finally) is that there are fish I would very much like to keep but just cannot. I need to do a better job of listening to people with more experience than me and do the right thing. I was told by an employee at a LFS after my third CBB not to bother trying again as he said hes been selling them for 10 years or more and a majority of the time the buyer comes back within a month to say it suddenly died. In his opinion, 100% of them were cyanide caught.

No more thinking or hoping I will 'get lucky' and one will survive. I knew it was a bad fish choice over and over again but tried anyways...pretty much once a year, twice within 3 months this time :(

There is no justifiable reason for me to make this hobby more selfish than it already is.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

The employee at the LFS said these fish are probably caught with cyanide... that is a very serious allegation and I would imagine any reputable store would not buy fish knowing they are caught like this. You said your fish was fine in somebody else's tank until you got it. How do you know it is not something you have within your system?

I had the two angels that died within a week from each bought at the same store. I recall PMing you about the symptoms of cyanide and then after that did a heck of a lot of research and also brought fish bodies for examination... two stores even said it looked like cyanide. Since I seemed to have an answer to the cause of death, I went ahead and bought a young queen angel from a private seller. The fish had been in a tank for a few months and was healthy so I thought it was a safe choice. That fish was dead within ten days in my tank... same symptoms exactly as the others.

I then looked into things much further since this fish was from a totally different store then mine came from. Again I took the fih's body to be examined and got two answers that this could be cyanide or a bacterial disease... I was shown fish at the LFS suffering from the exact same thing as mine, and they were being treated for it...

I know cyanide is an answer we can accept since we do not have to take full responsibility for the deaths. However there can be other reasons aside of this and we should look into those options as well. I have no idea of how much these cyanide tests cost, but perhaps we should have a fund made on canreef to test a fish we suspect is caught like this. I know fish do get caught with it, but unless somebody can prove this is why fish just suddenly up and die, what's the point of talking about it.

So what does it cost and where does it get done? Who wants to put up some money for this, and GSP can get this fish tested since it seems to be cyanide poisoning. Who wants to step up and put a few bucks here and there to get this test done? How many members are here, and how many people care enough to set up a fund and donate to it?

At least perhaps we can see if this fish died form a cyanide or perhaps something else.

I can tell you almost EVERY 'reputable' store buys cyanide caught fish. There is not much of a way around it. Of course they know it happens but with absolutely no way to know how the fish they are ordering are caught, Im not sure what else they can do.

I think its a very serious allegation for you to insinuate I am using cyanide as a way to NOT take responsibility when I have posted about this in a very open and honest way. I don't appreciate that and that is EXACTLY the reason I was not going to post this and answers other questions above about why people don't want to post about things like this.

The Copperbands I have lost all died the same way and in in four completely different systems over 5 years. Actually if you count this tank as a new system after the transfer, its 5 different tanks. If there was a bacteria in all of them that happened to kill the fish...well I don't know what to say then.

Doing so much research would lead me to believe you have come across studies and facts that give you an idea of how real the cyanide problem is. I don't think testing of this or any other fish will prove anything new. It happens. Regardless of whether this fish died of cyanide or not, would it make a difference? If we found out that in fact it did not die of cyanide, would that mean we could ignore the fact that it happens and destroys reefs? Would it mean I should try another? What exactly would it prove?

I for one will not contribute a penny or minute of my time to any testing of fish. For one, not many places can do it and even less will care to bother. I doubt there is a lab that is going to be willing to test a 'pet' for no particular reason or want to get involved. If you perhaps are conducting a very controlled study to test for cyanide, maybe.

All the power to you if you want to continue to pursue this. I for one just don't see the point. It doesn't matter why these fish do not do well in captivity, it just matters that they do not. I don't need more reason than that to not buy them anymore and encourage people to do the same.

On the subject of cyanide fishing in general and what to do about it, there is already proof it happens, testing a few fish from Canreef isn't going to be some groundbreaking discovery that changes the hobby. What to do about it, I don't know. People are working on it and putting pressure on countries to deal with it. The Philippines are apparently starting to get tougher. Im not sure what your plans are but I can tell you that the best thing to do is avoid these fish and teach others the same. I will feel good about doing my part by not contributing to more CBB deaths or other species that are known to be cyanide caught...

Do what you may but please do not turn this into a guilt trip. I am not trying to justify anything here--far from it. I have admitted I have made some terrible mistakes and I was wrong. Very publicly. I have no intention of taking this fish to be blended up and tested in a lab (probably for thousands of $ if anyone will even do it) so that they can tell me it had traces of cyanide or not. Just doesn't matter.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

^^Sorry I am just super frustrated with this whole thing :neutral:

If I am coming across as harsh then I apologize. Just the way I feel right now. I really didn't want this thread to get like this but of course there was the one poster who had to go there (not you).

I had hoped I could just tell the story and not have to worry about why this is happening (or turn this into a debate) and just accept the fact that it does and should not continue. I used to feel I needed to know the cause but with his one it sunk in--it doesn't matter! What will it change?

[my2rotties]

Sigh... I am not discounting your thoughts on cyanide, but you go into a store and tell them your fish died from cyanide poisoning. I was no way saying you are not taking responsibility in your fish's death. I know how it feels and it sucks.

At this point it should be "us" as hobbyists and consumers to get the testing done and take the tests back to the LFS... If the store cares they would look into their wholesalers and perhaps something get get done about this. If we just "think" it is cyanide, how are things supposed to ever change? We are just as much at fault for turning a blind eye to cyanide poisoning and continuing to buy fish we "suspect" get cyanide caught.

I in no way meant to be unsympathetic to you bringing this loss forward on the foums, but at this point what do we do?

If and when my CBB dies of what I suspect is cyanide poisoning, I will pay for the testing. I am sure someone on these forums must know of a place to send the fish to be tested. If you have something to prove this is the cause of death, then maybe things can change in the future.

If we sit there and do nothing as hobbyists, that are the bread and butter of this industry, then we are as much to blame as the people that poison the reefs and its inhabitants for our hobby.

I am so sorry for your losses as well as everyone else's... but what do we do from here? I do not judge people for their mistakes since I make mistakes myself. I do not take people's losses lightly at all. I have been there myself. I am sorry I offended you, but these fish continue to die and we do nothing about it. SO why can't a bunch of us hobbyists that care enough to get the testing done, pool the price of a CCB for each hobbyist and put it into a fund to get the ball rolling and make a difference?

Any one knowing of a place that can test fish that die of cyanide poisoning please chime in... Lets make something happen.


I can tell you almost EVERY 'reputable' store buys cyanide caught fish. There is not much of a way around it. Of course they know it happens but with absolutely no way to know how the fish they are ordering are caught, Im not sure what else they can do.

I think its a very serious allegation for you to insinuate I am using cyanide as a way to NOT take responsibility when I have posted about this in a very open and honest way. I don't appreciate that and that is EXACTLY the reason I was not going to post this and answers other questions above about why people don't want to post about things like this.

The Copperbands I have lost all died the same way and in in four completely different systems over 5 years. Actually if you count this tank as a new system after the transfer, its 5 different tanks. If there was a bacteria in all of them that happened to kill the fish...well I don't know what to say then.

Doing so much research would lead me to believe you have come across studies and facts that give you an idea of how real the cyanide problem is. I don't think testing of this or any other fish will prove anything new. It happens. Regardless of whether this fish died of cyanide or not, would it make a difference? If we found out that in fact it did not die of cyanide, would that mean we could ignore the fact that it happens and destroys reefs? Would it mean I should try another? What exactly would it prove?

I for one will not contribute a penny or minute of my time to any testing of fish. For one, not many places can do it and even less will care to bother. I doubt there is a lab that is going to be willing to test a 'pet' for no particular reason or want to get involved. If you perhaps are conducting a very controlled study to test for cyanide, maybe.

All the power to you if you want to continue to pursue this. I for one just don't see the point. It doesn't matter why these fish do not do well in captivity, it just matters that they do not. I don't need more reason than that to not buy them anymore and encourage people to do the same.

On the subject of cyanide fishing in general and what to do about it, there is already proof it happens, testing a few fish from Canreef isn't going to be some groundbreaking discovery that changes the hobby. What to do about it, I don't know. People are working on it and putting pressure on countries to deal with it. The Philippines are apparently starting to get tougher. Im not sure what your plans are but I can tell you that the best thing to do is avoid these fish and teach others the same. I will feel good about doing my part by not contributing to more CBB deaths or other species that are known to be cyanide caught...

Do what you may but please do not turn this into a guilt trip. I am not trying to justify anything here--far from it. I have admitted I have made some terrible mistakes and I was wrong. Very publicly. I have no intention of taking this fish to be blended up and tested in a lab (probably for thousands of $ if anyone will even do it) so that they can tell me it had traces of cyanide or not. Just doesn't matter.

[jsmth321]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your fish.

I am just as guilty of at some point trying to keep a fish with a poor track record, but over the last year or so I chosen to stop buying any wild caught animal, I do have less selection to choose from, but I am fine with it. Might not work for everyone, but I feel a little better about staying in the hobby.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Your missing my point. Why does it matter why they die? They are not in my opinion suited to aquarium life. Most of us on here know that by now. Its not going to make a difference if its cyanide, bacteria, sadness from loosing their mate or whatever else people want to suggest.

What do you think you will accomplish by taking tests to a LFS? Really. Do you feel like being banned...if thats your goal, be my guest but I will be no part of that. The best way for us to deal with this is to NOT BUY THE FISH. I feel my story here has already done what I wanted because at least two or three people have stated they will now not ever buy them. This is what we as hobbyiest can do. Its not our responsibility to blame LFS who are not breaking any laws. They are not the problem. We are. We buy them. They supply what people want.

If you feel thats not enough, then go to the Philippines and help the people there who are actually trying to deal with this problem. But do not come here and tell me I am turning a blind eye. I am doing what I can do. I cannot do more than try to educate people and I do not need to test a fish to do so. Whether or not this one fish (or any of the 5 for that matter) died of cyanide is irrelevant. Its not an unknown problem that needs to be proven or brought to the surface.

I said right away that I had a feeling that I knew why they had died but that this thread would not go in that direction because that was not the point. The point to me was that they often do not last and I want people to be aware of this before they choose to buy them or not. This was not suppose to be about cyanide but someone had to bring it up as always. I then explained to someone else what cyanide poisoning was. I still had not tried to claim it was the cause here until I saw the thread going that way anyway.

You have completely missed the point and can't seem to accept the fact that we don't always need to know why. The more important thing here is that we just know they don't do well. Its not like if this fish died from a bacterial problem that changes anything. That isn't going to mean cyanide fishing isn't happening. They are two completely separate issues.

If you insinuate one more time that I am doing nothing or that I am as much to blame as the people who poison the reefs, I think I might just loose it. Im not even kidding...

If you want to pursue this absolutely ridiculous testing, be my guest but do not do it in this thread. I don't want to hear about it. It will prove nothing that is not already known. Perhaps you can purchase and blend up thousands of retail fishes from various stores, test them, get some real hard numbers together and figure out the percentage of fish that are cyanide caught. Then what? You will have a random number that proves what is already known--its happening. OR...you can go do some searches on RC and google or wherever and get the exact same result--its happening. But what will not change is that CBB do not do well in captivity.

Sigh... I am not discounting your thoughts on cyanide, but you go into a store and tell them your fish died from cyanide poisoning. I was no way saying you are not taking responsibility in your fish's death. I know how it feels and it sucks.

At this point it should be "us" as hobbyists and consumers to get the testing done and take the tests back to the LFS... If the store cares they would look into their wholesalers and perhaps something get get done about this. If we just "think" it is cyanide, how are things supposed to ever change? We are just as much at fault for turning a blind eye to cyanide poisoning and continuing to buy fish we "suspect" get cyanide caught.

I in no way meant to be unsympathetic to you bringing this loss forward on the foums, but at this point what do we do?

If and when my CBB dies of what I suspect is cyanide poisoning, I will pay for the testing. I am sure someone on these forums must know of a place to send the fish to be tested. If you have something to prove this is the cause of death, then maybe things can change in the future.

If we sit there and do nothing as hobbyists, that are the bread and butter of this industry, then we are as much to blame as the people that poison the reefs and its inhabitants for our hobby.

I am so sorry for your losses as well as everyone else's... but what do we do from here? I do not judge people for their mistakes since I make mistakes myself. I do not take people's losses lightly at all. I have been there myself. I am sorry I offended you, but these fish continue to die and we do nothing about it. SO why can't a bunch of us hobbyists that care enough to get the testing done, pool the price of a CCB for each hobbyist and put it into a fund to get the ball rolling and make a difference?

Any one knowing of a place that can test fish that die of cyanide poisoning please chime in... Lets make something happen.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your fish.

I am just as guilty of at some point trying to keep a fish with a poor track record, but over the last year or so I chosen to stop buying any wild caught animal, I do have less selection to choose from, but I am fine with it. Might not work for everyone, but I feel a little better about staying in the hobby.

Now this is how people can do something about it. Im not saying I can go this way myself but kudos to you ;)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I'll admit that I was very and horribly discouraged about the saltwater hobby in general when I heard about the cyanide "traps". I really had no idea. I find wild caught is bad enough, but that story just kills me.

I talked to one of the staff at a LFS today about it -- while he knows it still happens, he thinks it's a rare scenario now. I only hope he's right -- else I may just stick with the 20 gallon tank that I have now and not even bother with the big one I dream to have one day....

Unfortunately its not rare and has spread to other countries now that were not known to use cyanide in the past :(

You are best off to get fish from Hawaii or Australia.

Anyways I hope this can get back on topic or I would prefer the mods close the thread.

[Drock169]

Justin is right in saying if you want do something, dont buy the fish. If a fish doesnt sell well, then a LFS wont bring it in. Unfortunately thousands of people buy them anyway, so realistically its as justin says and there isnt too much you can do, unless you decide to campaign world wide against the collection of copperbands.

[Funky_Fish14]

Im very sorry to hear about your loss :( Its difficult to lose any animal or certainly 'friend'.

The cyanide does not stay in the fishes system long at all. It actually gone relatively fast but it leaves behind permanent damage.

I have to interject with this statement - Cyanide is actually an inhibitor that attaches almost permanently to trigger sites in biological structures. It can bond anywhere in the body of an organism, and in any amount, it simply depends on where it is carried. The cyanide that does not attach to any bonding sites will leave the body quickly, yes, but the cyanide that does not, simply sticks and stays. It can exist in any amount on any organ or body part - and can inhibit the correct function of that system - affecting the animal's function and lifespan accordingly. It can take a long time before you see any results due to the problem. Heart problems loom for months, maybe even years, before they jump out (see high blood pressure for example - high blood pressure is a problem, but you CAN live your whole life with it not affecting you much - or you can die from a heart attack triggered by high blood pressure). It essentially affects you after whatever amount of body imbalance has been inflicted by the cyanide.

Anyways - I doubt cyanide is the case in these situations. It would likely cause gradual deterioration over time as the fish were allowed to live so long seemingly unnafected, and yet pass so suddenly and dramatically. It sounds like another problem is the major player, and I doubt that cyanide problems like this would be so copperband specific.

Sorry, dont mean to spark any debates, just had to add a bit about the nature of cyanide.

Again, sorry to hear about your loss.

Chris

[Funky_Fish14]

*The body (of any animal) is so perfectly balanced that I bet most animals affected by cyanide never make it to the hobby tanks, the retail stores even. Those that do get affected and make it to retail tanks, have such little exposure, and probably were not even the targets of the cyanide use anyways. Its sad because it is such a destructive and innefective method of capture... start captive breeding instead... it would probably end up cheaper.... and much higher yielding.

[leezard]

Unfortunately its not rare and has spread to other countries now that were not known to use cyanide in the past

You are best off to get fish from Hawaii or Australia.

That's /really/ too bad to hear.

I hope by the time we have a bigger house and have room for a larger tank, there will be more captive bred species to choose from. I'm having a hard time with this idea, to the point that it makes me not want to deal with saltwater fish at all (stick with what I have, so to speak).

I can also see why this would spark such a huge debate.

I, for one, thank you for posting this info -- I've definitely learned alot from it, and probably wouldn't know any better for awhile longer.

[my2rotties]

Fine sit there and play the victim all you want...

You are the first to attack others for making mistakes or having poor judgement. Now you want a metal because you lost a fish and admitted to it. Was it not too long ago you had made a posyt about another copperband and said never again... Practice what you preach.

If anyone is going to lose it, that will be myself and many other that have held their tongues.

If the tests for cyanide are ridiculous then why did you ever make mention of them a long time ago. Are they ridiculous because they might prove otherwise? I know many people whom have kept these fish for a long time. They just keepo their mouths shut since they do not want the ridicule and to be called down for buying them in the first place.

I can tell you one thing for certain...

Stores will never stop stocking these fish, and people will never stop buying them...

Perhaps it is up to the hobbyists to find out exactly why they are dying so they can do something about it.Not much we can do about cyanide poisoning, but bacterial infections can and are treated. I think even stores don't really know if they have fish that have been cyanide caught, they tell me they would NEVER buy if they knew... so if my CBB dies, I will have her tested and if it is cyanide I will tell that store. At least I would be doing something proactive in this hobby to either get banned from the store, or damned well try to have changes made.

Fish do not just up and die for no reason... it is our responsibility as hobbyist to know why they just up and die "for no reason". Sitting there and trying a species repeatedly with no answer. You tried five, and have learned nothing more then from the very first one... Now you tell other not to try anymore.

Sorry but although you didn't want to hear about it, you are going to. You have never held back on anyone else when they didn't want to hear about it either.

Any one else that knows of a lab or knows people that work in a lab that can possibly test fish for cyanide or take necropsy please PM me. Its about time something proactive gets done about these types of deaths. Hobbyists need to know what is indeed happening. At least I would want to know. As much as GSP didn't want this thread to go this way, it had to go this way.

Although I am well aware about cyanide use, and after discovering it happened, I didn't even want to be in this hobby. I got beat up in the beginning due to my feelings about this very thing.

GSP I am sorry you did not want thing to go into the direction they now have went. However for you to say you tried five CBBs now (one just died two months ago on you), it is very highly hypocritical to tell others not to do so, just because they did not work for you. I have been to many reefers homes and these fish are alive and well for months to years in their tanks. Why you don't hear about them, is people with the bad luck coming forward and saying that they always die. The ones that have success with these fish just don't come forward in fear of being bashed for owning a red or yellow list fish...

[Phanman]

have you tried contacting the UofC or SAIT for your testing?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

...

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Im very sorry to hear about your loss :( Its difficult to lose any animal or certainly 'friend'.



I have to interject with this statement - Cyanide is actually an inhibitor that attaches almost permanently to trigger sites in biological structures. It can bond anywhere in the body of an organism, and in any amount, it simply depends on where it is carried. The cyanide that does not attach to any bonding sites will leave the body quickly, yes, but the cyanide that does not, simply sticks and stays. It can exist in any amount on any organ or body part - and can inhibit the correct function of that system - affecting the animal's function and lifespan accordingly. It can take a long time before you see any results due to the problem. Heart problems loom for months, maybe even years, before they jump out (see high blood pressure for example - high blood pressure is a problem, but you CAN live your whole life with it not affecting you much - or you can die from a heart attack triggered by high blood pressure). It essentially affects you after whatever amount of body imbalance has been inflicted by the cyanide.

Anyways - I doubt cyanide is the case in these situations. It would likely cause gradual deterioration over time as the fish were allowed to live so long seemingly unnafected, and yet pass so suddenly and dramatically. It sounds like another problem is the major player, and I doubt that cyanide problems like this would be so copperband specific.

Sorry, dont mean to spark any debates, just had to add a bit about the nature of cyanide.

Again, sorry to hear about your loss.

Chris

This goes completely against all the studies I have read on the subject. Your going against some highly respected and reputable scientists on this one. Even some of the hobby biologist like Fenner have stated it does not stay in the system.

If this is based on humans reaction to cyanide, this has been brought up in the past and fish are not the same.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Fine sit there and play the victim all you want...

You are the first to attack others for making mistakes or having poor judgement. Now you want a metal because you lost a fish and admitted to it. Was it not too long ago you had made a posyt about another copperband and said never again... Practice what you preach.

If anyone is going to lose it, that will be myself and many other that have held their tongues.

If the tests for cyanide are ridiculous then why did you ever make mention of them a long time ago. Are they ridiculous because they might prove otherwise? I know many people whom have kept these fish for a long time. They just keepo their mouths shut since they do not want the ridicule and to be called down for buying them in the first place.

I can tell you one thing for certain...

Stores will never stop stocking these fish, and people will never stop buying them...

Perhaps it is up to the hobbyists to find out exactly why they are dying so they can do something about it.Not much we can do about cyanide poisoning, but bacterial infections can and are treated. I think even stores don't really know if they have fish that have been cyanide caught, they tell me they would NEVER buy if they knew... so if my CBB dies, I will have her tested and if it is cyanide I will tell that store. At least I would be doing something proactive in this hobby to either get banned from the store, or damned well try to have changes made.

Fish do not just up and die for no reason... it is our responsibility as hobbyist to know why they just up and die "for no reason". Sitting there and trying a species repeatedly with no answer. You tried five, and have learned nothing more then from the very first one... Now you tell other not to try anymore.

Sorry but although you didn't want to hear about it, you are going to. You have never held back on anyone else when they didn't want to hear about it either.

Any one else that knows of a lab or knows people that work in a lab that can possibly test fish for cyanide or take necropsy please PM me. Its about time something proactive gets done about these types of deaths. Hobbyists need to know what is indeed happening. At least I would want to know. As much as GSP didn't want this thread to go this way, it had to go this way.

Although I am well aware about cyanide use, and after discovering it happened, I didn't even want to be in this hobby. I got beat up in the beginning due to my feelings about this very thing.

GSP I am sorry you did not want thing to go into the direction they now have went. However for you to say you tried five CBBs now (one just died two months ago on you), it is very highly hypocritical to tell others not to do so, just because they did not work for you. I have been to many reefers homes and these fish are alive and well for months to years in their tanks. Why you don't hear about them, is people with the bad luck coming forward and saying that they always die. The ones that have success with these fish just don't come forward in fear of being bashed for owning a red or yellow list fish...

When did I say not to? I said I don't think people should and that hopefully poeple don't have to learn how I did. I never said not to buy them. I tried again (as I said but you apparently missed) that I only tried again because I found one from a members tank. You really need to slow down and read.

How am sitting and playing victim? I had the intention of sharing the experience to educate people. Im not telling anyone what to do. I do not attack people as you say. I have no idea where you get this from other than perhaps your threads but honestly you drive me nuts. Talk about feeling sorry for yourself...

I have tried five over five years and have learned something. You can't just get it through your head that we don't have to have a reason to know its not the best choice. Im not the only running into this problem. Your comments would only be fair it this were just happening to me and my tank. Its not. Its a problem regardless of the cause.

Im sorry you take such issue with the way I have dealt with it and you shoudl hope I don't ever truly express my feelings about how you run your tank. :neutral:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Mods can you please close this--the intention here has fallen very short for a few individuals and is getting way too off topic. This was never to be a cyanide discussion.

[my2rotties]

Looking into to it now... probably will take a few days since I am not too sure where to start at this point.

have you tried contacting the UofC or SAIT for your testing?