Hidden Closed Loop Intake

[Dez]

Okay... I've been thinking about this for my current tank build. I'm trying to go for the cleanest look possible. I don't want to try to have to hide a lot with my rock work. I don't like the fact that a lot of people put the intake of the closed loop at the bottom because I'm going to have a sand bed (I don't want to risk sand getting into the closed loop or oceans motions). Some people have the intake strainer on the back of the tank (but my tank is 2 sides viewable so there really isn't a back. I don't really want to have to service the strainer often if it's near the bottom. So this is what I've come up with. This way, you get more surface skimming, and the hole in the side is just to make sure that the flow can keep up with the intake. If I choose to ever not use the closed loop, it doesn't do the tank any harm. Any comments or suggestions? I think maybe 2 returns through the bottom and 2 from the top using an oceans motions 4-way.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/des_sublime/IMG_0193.jpg?t=1237924803

[banditpowdercoat]

My closed loop uses the overflow. Acctually, the CL pump is IN the overflow. :D

[Dez]

My closed loop uses the overflow. Acctually, the CL pump is IN the overflow. :D

But your return lines of the closed loop are probably all at the top. If I have the intake in the actual overflow box, then water would go through my bottom return lines, siphon and drain the tank in a power outage right? At least up to the level of the drain in the overflow box. Mr. Alberta had that happen a couple of years ago.

[banditpowdercoat]

Closed loop wont drain the tank. Its Closed. from overflow, straight to pump inlet, then out of pump, back to tank, right?

[golf nut]

My closed loop uses the overflow. Acctually, the CL pump is IN the overflow. :D


I imagine you have done pretend power outage to see what would happen.

[Dez]

Closed loop wont drain the tank. Its Closed. from overflow, straight to pump inlet, then out of pump, back to tank, right?

Yes, however it's not so closed anymore once there is a drain in the overflow. Take a look at this diagram that I quickly mocked up (white box is the pump) If you have a power outage, the whole tank is going to drain to the level of the standpipe (standpipe drains to sump - I didn't continue it in the diagram). The water is going to go through the return at the bottom of the tank, into the overflow, and drain down the standpipe in the overflow box. Meaning in the case of this diagram, almost half of the tank would be drained to the sump. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that I've thought it through alright in my head. Mr. Alberta said that this exact thing happened to him so he doesn't run the inlet of the closed loop in the overflow box anymore.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/des_sublime/closedloop.jpg?t=1237928761

[golf nut]

If what you have drawn is correct, then as the power goes out the overflow would fall to the level of the standpipe going to the sump, the water in the tank would force water back through the pump and into the overflow which would go to the sump.

you are correct, the tank will drain to stand pipe level.

[Delphinus]

Ohhhhh oh ho !!! Tricky, very tricky!! It took me a while to see it, but yes now I see it. The outlet has to be higher than the standpipe if you don't want that to happen.

[mark]

My tank is two sides viewable as well, with the overflows on both ends.

My CL intake is midway up the side of one of my OF chambers, plumbed straight through to my CL pump (does not draw from the OF chmber). As you're trying to avoid, is covered with LR but seems to work.

[Delphinus]

Or I guess a check valve.. But I myself don't like having to rely on a check valve to prevent a flood.

[Dez]

Now that we have it sorted out that I can't have the intake in my overflow (due to using Herbie Style Drain and don't want water draining out and wanting returns on the bottom). Any suggestions on the original purpose of this thread? How does my original hand drawn diagram look? The idea is to have that as a completely separate box.

(I spent way more time than I should have on that mock up diagram of "what if power failure occurs when inlet is in overflow box)

[Delphinus]

You've lost me. :lol: What was the original question? :redface: I thought you were asking if you could have your CL intake in the overflow box. Or are you asking about the additional hole in the overflow box?

[Delphinus]

Oh ... wait. The question is about whether it's a good idea to use an overflow box that doesn't lead to the sump at all?

Interesting. That seems like it could work. No idea what pitfalls to expect but it seems like a workable idea..

[golf nut]

Ohhhhh oh ho !!! Tricky, very tricky!! It took me a while to see it, but yes now I see it. The outlet has to be higher than the standpipe if you don't want that to happen.


Then what happens is the tank settles to the level of the closed loop feed, then the water in the overflow drains to the standpipe height.

When power comes on there is no water in the overflow for the closed loop pump and it runs dry....play it safe .... do it right.

[banditpowdercoat]

I imagine you have done pretend power outage to see what would happen.

Acctually, we have a outage atleast once a month. AND, I shut my pump off completely every water change.

My closed loop intake is at the bottom of the overflow. And the drain into the sump is a Durso style. There is No reason why you cant have a Closed loop intake in an overflow

[banditpowdercoat]

Yes, however it's not so closed anymore once there is a drain in the overflow. Take a look at this diagram that I quickly mocked up (white box is the pump) If you have a power outage, the whole tank is going to drain to the level of the standpipe (standpipe drains to sump - I didn't continue it in the diagram). The water is going to go through the return at the bottom of the tank, into the overflow, and drain down the standpipe in the overflow box. Meaning in the case of this diagram, almost half of the tank would be drained to the sump. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that I've thought it through alright in my head. Mr. Alberta said that this exact thing happened to him so he doesn't run the inlet of the closed loop in the overflow box anymore.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/des_sublime/closedloop.jpg?t=1237928761


If the white Box is a closed PUMP, not a SUMP, then No water will drain. Only will it drain if there is a leak in the plumbing. Then no matter what design you have. In a power outage with this design, the level in the Overflow will ballance the level in the tank. Nothing will over flow. It can't.


Now, when you ADD a sump. You need to make sure the sump can handle the extra water in a power outage, because it WILL drain from tank to SUMP, because the sump is open. It will drain the tank and overflow to the sump drain pipe level, thats all. Mine does this JUST FINE.

You will need to use a Durso style drain for sump in the overflow though. Thats the only caveat

[Dez]

If the white Box is a closed PUMP, not a SUMP, then No water will drain. Only will it drain if there is a leak in the plumbing. Then no matter what design you have. In a power outage with this design, the level in the Overflow will ballance the level in the tank. Nothing will over flow. It can't.


Now, when you ADD a sump. You need to make sure the sump can handle the extra water in a power outage, because it WILL drain from tank to SUMP, because the sump is open. It will drain the tank and overflow to the sump drain pipe level, thats all. Mine does this JUST FINE.

You will need to use a Durso style drain for sump in the overflow though. Thats the only caveat

I don't think you get the point though, it isn't a closed loop anymore once you have the inlet in your overflow box. Since you have a durso to your sump, I'm guessing that your standpipe is pretty high, so it will drain to the level of your standpipe. The durso makes it not closed anymore. If you had no standpipe, your sump might not handle the flow. Anyway, we're off topic because we've established that I can't have my inlet in the overflow box due to Herbie style drain.

[golf nut]

Acctually, we have a outage atleast once a month. AND, I shut my pump off completely every water change.

My closed loop intake is at the bottom of the overflow. And the drain into the sump is a Durso style. There is No reason why you cant have a Closed loop intake in an overflow


Which pump?

[banditpowdercoat]

I don't think you get the point though, it isn't a closed loop anymore once you have the inlet in your overflow box. Since you have a durso to your sump, I'm guessing that your standpipe is pretty high, so it will drain to the level of your standpipe. The durso makes it not closed anymore. If you had no standpipe, your sump might not handle the flow. Anyway, we're off topic because we've established that I can't have my inlet in the overflow box due to Herbie style drain.


Closed loop is just that, CLOSED. from tank, back to tank. And yes, with my Durso, the standpipes are high. no reason why Herbie standpipes couldnt be high too. In fact. Most people I know put the Standpipes No Lower than they want the water to ever drain. An extra safeguard. They do NOT need to be at the bottom of the overflow.

[banditpowdercoat]

Which pump?

Pentair Quiet one 3000 for my closed loop, and a MAG 3.5 for my sump return.

Why would it make a difference what pump I used? they have an intake and outlet, which you attach pipes to

[saltynuts]

i had mr albertas old cube.
i had the closed loop in take in the overflow(coast to coast).mag 24
and a durso intake for the sump.mag 18 return
when the power went out water only went down to the durso level.
the closed loop had no effect on the level in the sump.

[golf nut]

typically a closed loop is used to get flow into the tank without power heads, if you used a large pump on your closed loop there simply isn't enough water going through the teeth on the overflow box to keep the pump functioning, you might be getting away with this with a medium sized pump, but to recommend this to the average reefer is asking for trouble.

Dursos will control the height of the overflow box but returns from the sump into the tank will also cause back flow, as can be seen from Des pic his system will fail, as will any other
system that isnt don exactly correctly, why ask for trouble.

not only that, the correct way to use a feed to a closed loop pump is the get the goodness out of the rock and into the water column, you use the pump feed to enhance movement in the tank, doing this from the overflow box means you are losing the flow you could have used to your advantage, your teeth in the overflow box need to be low enough for the CL to get enough water, if this is the case then you are not surface skimming which is the whole point of the overflow box.

[banditpowdercoat]

Ya OK, my system will NEVER work......................

[golf nut]

Ya OK, my system will NEVER work......................


I didn't say your system wouldn't work, your closed loop pump is 700 gph, the teeth can handle that quantity, you cannot do this with a 3000gph pump it simply will drain overflow box.

[banditpowdercoat]

I didn't say your system wouldn't work, your closed loop pump is 700 gph, the teeth can handle that quantity, you cannot do this with a 3000gph pump it simply will drain overflow box.

Well, I would think that it would be apparant that the overflow is going to have to be large enough to handle whatever flow pump you run. There was never the question, "will my Pump be to big for this overflow".

[golf nut]

Unfortunately Dan nothing is always apparent in this hobby, hence my reason for suggesting against doing this.

[saltynuts]

sorry should have added.
closed loop mag 24
return was a mag 18.

[banditpowdercoat]

saltynuts, that's a fair amount of flow with those 2 pumps. What is the weir length of the overflow that is handling that flow?

I had a mag 18 and it flowed ALOT. to much for my drains to handle, thats why I went the 2 smaller pumps

[saltynuts]

overflow was a coast to coast
1 icnh for closed loop mag 24
2 inch for sump durso. mag 18

[banditpowdercoat]

Ahh, CtC I missed that. My next tank, I would like to do a CtC

[mark]

Dez, have you considered a strainer used on jetted tubs or hot tubs, would stick into the tank 1/4" or less.

[Dez]

Dez, have you considered a strainer used on jetted tubs or hot tubs, would stick into the tank 1/4" or less.

Finally, someone on topic. Do you have pics of any. That might be a good option. I spoke to someone recently after posting this thread who has a lot of experience and I'll probably go with his idea. However, I would still need a strainer or eggcrate, any link? Thanks Mark.

[mark]

Did a quick google search but not finding a threaded or slip flat strainers but have seen them in builds. Worst case could just have the bulkhead coming into the display and get a tub strainer and hold in place with a bead of silicone. If got creative could even mount a nylon nut in the bulkhead and fasten through to it. The one in the picture is about 4" in diameter.

Also here's my 2" CL intake in the overflow with room to spare.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/das75/strainer.jpg

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/das75/CL_intake.jpg

[banditpowdercoat]

Mark, is that overflow noisy? Another reason fro me to have my standpipes high is to mimize the water fall noise from the overflow. Acctually, it works. Because last week, the air inlet to to durso got a little plugged with salt creep. So, the drain was siphoning, and the resultant noise from the larger overflow drop alerted me to something not right with the tank.

[Delphinus]

Acctually, we have a outage atleast once a month. AND, I shut my pump off completely every water change.

My closed loop intake is at the bottom of the overflow. And the drain into the sump is a Durso style. There is No reason why you cant have a Closed loop intake in an overflow

Are the closed loop inlets and outlets at the same height or higher than the overflow standpipe? I had totally convinced myself that it would drain the tank to the standpipe because the main tank is open to the overflow via the closed loop plumbing, but there must be something that is preventing this?

[banditpowdercoat]

Are the closed loop inlets and outlets at the same height or higher than the overflow standpipe? I had totally convinced myself that it would drain the tank to the standpipe because the main tank is open to the overflow via the closed loop plumbing, but there must be something that is preventing this?


My closed loop inlet is bottom of overflow, the outlets are just at waters surface. OK, NOW I am seeing a possibility. IF you have a sump drain at the bottom of the overflow, AND have CL outlets mid tank or so, Yes then it will back flow through the CL outlets, into overflow, and flood the sump. But, if you place your Sump standpipes up at a height that will prevent this. Even Herbie style can use tall standpipes. Then, no matter how low in the tank the CL outputs are, the Overflow will not drain lower than the height of the standpipes.

Like anything in this hobby, Nothing is impossible, but EVERYTHING needs careful planning


Here is a pic of my overflow. You can see the CL plumbing. Pump is in bottom of Overflow. and ,my Durso drain. Water level drop is 2" approx over the overflow. Sump outlet is the Locline to the lower right, its' about 1" below the water surface, and there is a check valve on that line to top extra siphoning. I could put any of my CL outlets below the water line, But my reason fro doing the CL was to eliminate the look of outlets in the tank. So, I have kept them at the surface. next tank is hiding them in the rockwork
http://banditpowdercoat.com/Powdergallery/nfpicturepro/albums/userpics/10002/Dsc00014%20%282%29.jpg

[mark]

Mark, is that overflow noisy? Another reason fro me to have my standpipes high is to mimize the water fall noise from the overflow. Acctually, it works. Because last week, the air inlet to to durso got a little plugged with salt creep. So, the drain was siphoning, and the resultant noise from the larger overflow drop alerted me to something not right with the tank.

Would be if I ran it like this:biggrin:. What I did was removed the Durso then moved the standpipe over to get a picture. With everything in-place the water drops only about 1.5" into the overflow chamber.