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my2rotties
03-22-2009, 10:50 PM
Every where I read it says a fish should be fat to ensure they are healthy. I also read tangs will get aggressive if they are hungry... To keep the peace, I drop a couple of pellets for my sohal here and there during the day... If I kept dropping pellets or giving nori on the clip he would keep eating, I can bet on it.

He is FAT, really fat, and I don't know quite how to deal with it now. It is not healthy for any animal to be over weight, but exactly how do I put a fish on a diet. I have to say all my fish are very robust and healthy but my sohal looks like a porker. He is very thick compared to the others which are just nice.

With dogs if you can feel their ribs to a certain extent, you know they are in target range. How do you know if a fish is at a healthy weight and not over weight? If a fish is indeed obese (if that is possible), how can you really tell? Is this an issue with anyone else?

marie
03-23-2009, 12:24 AM
I had the same problem with my achilles, everybody I asked didn't seem to be too concerned but I cut down on the amount of food I was feeding the tank without affecting the other fish too much
This is him...I haven't noticed that he's slimmed down much but at least he hasn't gained
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mariesnell/june1308.jpg

fishoholic
03-23-2009, 12:30 AM
90% of my fish are fat. I like to think of it as they are just very healthy. Not sure if a fish would become overweight, or if it did I guess you'd just cut back on the feeding.

my2rotties
03-23-2009, 12:40 AM
What a nice achilles tang. Guess yours is proof that they do not all starve to death. Was he hard to get eating or did he get ich when he came home? I don't want one, don't worry, but success stories are always so encouraging to see. How big is he now? Do they get to the size sohals get?

My sohal is fat, and I think he is too fat, but you tell him that. I have had him over three months and he has grown about 50% since he came home. All my fish grow and eat more then I care to feed. I just read that tangs get mean if they are hungry... so I throw pellets in here and there on top of their feedings. Not a single pellet ever touches the sand and the sohal can pack them in in a second. The nori clip is stripped bare in no time.

I read that the biggest concerns are if the fish are not eating and such. Mine seem to hit the buffet line too much but I don't want any fish hungry and stressed either. I will try to snap a shot of my sohal, he is a whale, much like the achilles. Big fat cheeks, and puffy face.

GreenSpottedPuffer
03-23-2009, 12:46 AM
I used to think my fish were nice and "thick" until I went to a friends place the other day to see his fish...now mine look kind of skinny to me!

He has the thickest Foxface, Copperband, Moorish Idol, Powder Blue Tang, Sailfin, Clowns and I was most impressed with his Mandarin (whos belly dragged on the ground) that doesn't eat frozen but was so thick and big.

I bet some people know who I am talking about now. LOL. I have heard a rumor he goes through more food in a week than most people feed in a month :lol:

He has the nicest colored fish I have seen in a long time.

GreenSpottedPuffer
03-23-2009, 12:50 AM
What a nice achilles tang. Guess yours is proof that they do not all starve to death. Was he hard to get eating or did he get ich when he came home? I don't want one, don't worry, but success stories are always so encouraging to see. How big is he now? Do they get to the size sohals get?

My sohal is fat, and I think he is too fat, but you tell him that. I have had him over three months and he has grown about 50% since he came home. All my fish grow and eat more then I care to feed. I just read that tangs get mean if they are hungry... so I throw pellets in here and there on top of their feedings. Not a single pellet ever touches the sand and the sohal can pack them in in a second. The nori clip is stripped bare in no time.

I read that the biggest concerns are if the fish are not eating and such. Mine seem to hit the buffet line too much but I don't want any fish hungry and stressed either. I will try to snap a shot of my sohal, he is a whale, much like the achilles. Big fat cheeks, and puffy face.

I wouldn't worry about it. When I was diving in Australia a few years back, so many of the large tangs were much thicker than the average tang you would see in an aquarium. It was kind of two extremes. Some looked on the brink or starvation and the obviously dominant and "fittest" were ridiculously thick. Like the Achilles Tang above (which does not at all look fat to me just nice and thick, healthy). Being in Australia, we didn't see as many tangs as you would in Hawaii but this kind of went for all fish except I noticed a lot of the larger predators like puffers were quite thin.

Delphinus
03-23-2009, 12:50 AM
Going to play devil's advocate here. How can we emphatically believe that a wide fish is unhealthily obese? AFAIK I haven't seen a BMI chart posted for fish. :p

All I can say is that when I've seen the same fish that we keep in aquaria in the wild, they were fatter and wider than the fattest fish I ever saw in captivity. As in no comparison whatsoever. So I tend to believe that in general even if we think we're overfeeding, we're not, not really anyhow. Yes it is true that as long as they see food they will eat food, so we can't use a "they'll stop eating when they're full" sort of thing to figure out how to throttle back the amounts, but the flip side is although they'll never really be "less" hungry, they can be "more" hungry and that can sometimes lead to aggression. So it's a fine line or a balancing act, maybe with some experimentation and observation you'll find the balance that works for you..

marie
03-23-2009, 12:51 AM
I've had the achilles for 3 yrs now but when I got him he came down with marine velvet and had to be treated with copper and kept in quarantine for 8 weeks

*edit* oh and he's grown from approx 3" when I got him to 8-9" now. The max size is 10" so hopefully he won't get a lot bigger

GreenSpottedPuffer
03-23-2009, 12:53 AM
Going to play devil's advocate here. How can we emphatically believe that a wide fish is unhealthily obese? AFAIK I haven't seen a BMI chart posted for fish. :p

All I can say is that when I've seen the same fish that we keep in aquaria in the wide, they were fatter and wider than the fattest fish I ever saw in captivity. As in no comparison whatsoever. So I tend to believe that in general even if we think we're overfeeding, we're not, not really anyhow. Yes it is true that as long as they see food they will eat food, so we can't use a "they'll stop eating when they're full" sort of thing to figure out how to throttle back the amounts, but the flip side is although they'll never really be "less" hungry, they can be "more" hungry and that can sometimes lead to aggression. So it's a fine line or a balancing act, maybe with some experimentation and observation you'll find the balance that works for you..

I think we were typing at the same time and essentially saying the same thing.

If you see these fish in the ocean, you realize a majority of fish we keep are underweight and on the slim side for fish with no competition for food or predators.

Many feeding all throughout the day is best for tangs. All they do is graze all day in the wild.

Delphinus
03-23-2009, 12:56 AM
Yeah you were a little quicker on the submit than I was. :)

Even just going to Hawaii and snorkeling is an eye opening experience to see what these fish are supposed to look like. I never saw a yellow tang that was >6" in captivity before, but I never saw any that were less than 8" or less than 2"-3" WIDE. It's unreal. It tells me we are seriously throttling back their food intake and probably shortening their lifespans as a result. :neutral:

GreenSpottedPuffer
03-23-2009, 01:01 AM
Yeah you were a little quicker on the submit than I was. :)

Even just going to Hawaii and snorkeling is an eye opening experience to see what these fish are supposed to look like. I never saw a yellow tang that was >6" in captivity before, but I never saw any that were less than 8" or less than 2"-3" WIDE. It's unreal. It tells me we are seriously throttling back their food intake and probably shortening their lifespans as a result. :neutral:

Very good points and I even wonder if some of the harder to keep species are harder as a result of diet. Not necessarily what they are eating but perhaps how much.

Now that I think about it...most of the 5+ year old Yellow Tangs I know of are what most people call "fat".

my2rotties
03-23-2009, 01:14 AM
I sure hope I can get a chance to dive and see these fish for myself. There is no better way to tell if you are doing something right, or wrong in this hobby then.

A long time ago I saw a post on another forum chastising another member for having so many tangs in one tank, and overfeeding them to keep them subdued in temperment was wrong. I believe it was untamed's tank to be honest. When the fish are hungry they are more aggressive and active...

Today has been a peaceful day with everybody, and I have no seen anything out of sorts until I put the mirror up as someone suggested I do. What was funny is all my peaceful fish were out for blood and the aggressors were in hiding...

Marie, congrats on keeping your tang so healthy and robust. I need to see if you have more pictures posted of him else where. Beautiful fish.

marie
03-23-2009, 01:20 AM
...
Marie, congrats on keeping your tang so healthy and robust. I need to see if you have more pictures posted of him else where. Beautiful fish.

Pics when I first placed him in the display tank

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26517

and this is a thread from a year ago

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41136

GreenSpottedPuffer
03-23-2009, 01:35 AM
Pics when I first placed him in the display tank

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26517

and this is a thread from a year ago

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41136

Very nice!

Its great to see such a thriving Achilles. You need to share your secrets :wink:

GreenSpottedPuffer
03-23-2009, 01:39 AM
I sure hope I can get a chance to dive and see these fish for myself. There is no better way to tell if you are doing something right, or wrong in this hobby then.

A long time ago I saw a post on another forum chastising another member for having so many tangs in one tank, and overfeeding them to keep them subdued in temperment was wrong. I believe it was untamed's tank to be honest. When the fish are hungry they are more aggressive and active...

Today has been a peaceful day with everybody, and I have no seen anything out of sorts until I put the mirror up as someone suggested I do. What was funny is all my peaceful fish were out for blood and the aggressors were in hiding...

Marie, congrats on keeping your tang so healthy and robust. I need to see if you have more pictures posted of him else where. Beautiful fish.

IMO there is nothing wrong with feeding your fish more often to keep their tempers in check if that works. And I do believe that can help. If your system can handle it, I would try feeding a bit more even and see how the Sailfin and Sohal react. Perhaps it will help out a bit.

In fact I have realized that the day my Hippo beat up my Powder Brown was a rare day when I only fed them twice as I was out. Most days I feed three times with about 3 more times where I feed "snacks". Then yesterday I was out much of the day again and he went after my tusk.

Today he is an angel since I have been home and they have been getting a sheet of nori every 2 hours or so.

fishoholic
03-23-2009, 01:55 AM
I think we were typing at the same time and essentially saying the same thing.

If you see these fish in the ocean, you realize a majority of fish we keep are underweight and on the slim side for fish with no competition for food or predators.

Many feeding all throughout the day is best for tangs. All they do is graze all day in the wild.

Interesting, I have been cutting back on how much I feed because I was told it was too much, I think I will continue with the way I was feeding before.

my2rotties
03-23-2009, 02:25 AM
I can't believe a fish would mess with the tusk. I saw one at the LFS and they look pretty serious. I can see why he bit your damsel in half...

When I noticed the sailfin was almost gutted it was after feeding but I forgot to fill the nori clip. Usually I do the nori first, pellets and then Griffie's puffer chow which everybody goes nuts for. Maybe fish are creatures of habit and because I did things backwards it caused an issue.

I just fed everybody and the sohal and sailfin went after each other for a second... I guess they don't think they are just fat enough yet... Pretty soon the will sink rather then swim:wink:

I guess lard butt fish are a good thing but I wanted to make sure this was the case. I guess salt water makes one more buoyant, so they can be fatter.

IMO there is nothing wrong with feeding your fish more often to keep their tempers in check if that works. And I do believe that can help. If your system can handle it, I would try feeding a bit more even and see how the Sailfin and Sohal react. Perhaps it will help out a bit.

In fact I have realized that the day my Hippo beat up my Powder Brown was a rare day when I only fed them twice as I was out. Most days I feed three times with about 3 more times where I feed "snacks". Then yesterday I was out much of the day again and he went after my tusk.

Today he is an angel since I have been home and they have been getting a sheet of nori every 2 hours or so.

my2rotties
03-23-2009, 02:53 AM
Be daring and give your skimmer a run for its money and see what your rocks can for do you... My params always stay the same no matter how heavy I feed, and I have Griffie to deal with...

Filter socks are a wonderful invention until you have to stick your hand into it to turn it inside out for washing:neutral:

Interesting, I have been cutting back on how much I feed because I was told it was too much, I think I will continue with the way I was feeding before.

GreenSpottedPuffer
03-23-2009, 03:06 AM
Interesting, I have been cutting back on how much I feed because I was told it was too much, I think I will continue with the way I was feeding before.

Were you told it was too much because of water parameters though? You can easily feed more than your tank can handle, leading to high phosphates and nitrates as I am sure you already know.

I can't believe a fish would mess with the tusk. I saw one at the LFS and they look pretty serious. I can see why he bit your damsel in half...

When I noticed the sailfin was almost gutted it was after feeding but I forgot to fill the nori clip. Usually I do the nori first, pellets and then Griffie's puffer chow which everybody goes nuts for. Maybe fish are creatures of habit and because I did things backwards it caused an issue.

I just fed everybody and the sohal and sailfin went after each other for a second... I guess they don't think they are just fat enough yet... Pretty soon the will sink rather then swim:wink:

I guess lard butt fish are a good thing but I wanted to make sure this was the case. I guess salt water makes one more buoyant, so they can be fatter.

The tusk and most I have seen are big push overs. They don't really stand up for themselves much. Most people who buy them are quite surprised I think. They just look tough.

my2rotties
03-23-2009, 03:42 AM
I never knew they even existed until I saw your post... then I saw one at the LFS and they are simply awesome. I meant to do some reading on them, since they look pretty specialized. Must be a stunner in your tank...

Were you told it was too much because of water parameters though? You can easily feed more than your tank can handle, leading to high phosphates and nitrates as I am sure you already know.



The tusk and most I have seen are big push overs. They don't really stand up for themselves much. Most people who buy them are quite surprised I think. They just look tough.

Lance
03-23-2009, 04:07 AM
The tusk and most I have seen are big push overs. They don't really stand up for themselves much. Most people who buy them are quite surprised I think. They just look tough.

I totally agree with you. I was a little worried to get one because I thought it might be too aggressive, but he is just the opposite. He pretty much ignores the other fish and in fact, was getting bullied by my foxface.

Pansy-Paws
03-23-2009, 04:27 AM
I'm also in the mega-feeding camp ... and agree that much of the aggression in our tanks is hunger driven. In the wild, the amount of territory that a fish controls defines how much food it will have ... and whether it can also support a mate :mrgreen:. So, if the fish is "more" hungry, and sees a fish in near proximity that eats the same food items, it's game on.

The downside, of course, is water parameters. My nitrates usually run between 5 and 20 ppm, even with 10% weekly water changes. This nitrate level precludes a reef tank, and I happily maintain the tank as fish only.

For comparison purpose, my daily feeding regime consists of 1 1/3 sheets of nori (8" x 9" sheets) and 12-14 frozen Hikari cubes (included in this volume count is PE mysis as well). I'll occasionally add a piece of scallop or a clam for more variety.

Our widest fish are a 7" foxface and a 5" huma huma, each with a 2" girth.

Going to play devil's advocate here. How can we emphatically believe that a wide fish is unhealthily obese? AFAIK I haven't seen a BMI chart posted for fish. :p

All I can say is that when I've seen the same fish that we keep in aquaria in the wild, they were fatter and wider than the fattest fish I ever saw in captivity. As in no comparison whatsoever. So I tend to believe that in general even if we think we're overfeeding, we're not, not really anyhow. Yes it is true that as long as they see food they will eat food, so we can't use a "they'll stop eating when they're full" sort of thing to figure out how to throttle back the amounts, but the flip side is although they'll never really be "less" hungry, they can be "more" hungry and that can sometimes lead to aggression. So it's a fine line or a balancing act, maybe with some experimentation and observation you'll find the balance that works for you..

fishoholic
03-23-2009, 05:59 AM
Were you told it was too much because of water parameters though? You can easily feed more than your tank can handle, leading to high phosphates and nitrates as I am sure you already know.




Our nitrates have been highish around 20 for awhile now. Thought it was from having Simon our puffer (who we rehomed) and feeding him clams and krill etc.
I used to feed some handfuls of pellets and a chunk of mysis every day and nori every now and then. Now we've been doing pellets one day and mysis the next and going back and forth between the two and I still do nori every now then. I always feel bad though on the day it's just pellets since I have a few fish that only eat the mysis. However I have a high pod and mysid shrimp population and all my fish are pretty fat so I'm sure they are ok.

GreenSpottedPuffer
03-23-2009, 07:00 AM
Our nitrates have been highish around 20 for awhile now. Thought it was from having Simon our puffer (who we rehomed) and feeding him clams and krill etc.
I used to feed some handfuls of pellets and a chunk of mysis every day and nori every now and then. Now we've been doing pellets one day and mysis the next and going back and forth between the two and I still do nori every now then. I always feel bad though on the day it's just pellets since I have a few fish that only eat the mysis. However I have a high pod and mysid shrimp population and all my fish are pretty fat so I'm sure they are ok.

Ya sounds like your fine then. I wouldn't worry too much as long as your fish keep their weight on. I find they loose weight fast if you are underfeeding.

Funky_Fish14
03-23-2009, 07:47 AM
To think that its possible for a fish to gorge itself to death in captivity, even with the heaviest of feedings (which is simply a 2 minute all you can eat buffet 3 or 4 times a day), I think is ureasonable.

Fish spend almost their entire time in the wild foraging or seeking out food, eating. Nothing stops them from eating, and certainly many fish can find food in excess, so if they were going to blow, they probably would. Since they spend so much time doing so, and do so even in our tanks... I dont think that any amount of feeding or 'fatness' would really cause a fish's demise. The only exception I can think of, its feeding some sort of large mouthed fish (such as a lion or frogfish) something much too large and unreasonable... but this is far from an average scenario.

IMO - Cant feed a fish too much, only thing you can do is 'blow up your skimmer'. Lol.

Chris

Leah
03-23-2009, 01:50 PM
Good to hear this! My yellow tang is super thin and I thought I fed alot. On the other
hand my hippo is just that a HIPPO. I would love to catch the yellow and put him in my
fish only tank, so he can eat till his heart is content. I feed frozen daily and nori daily
and flakes as well. But out of curiosity what pellets are you feeding? I think I have spoiled my fish as they do not seem to like any pellets. That is once they hit the ground,
maybe it is the wrong pellet food.
If only he would listen when I tell him he could have a home without the hippo tagging
along side him. My hippo has a strange bond with my yellow tang.
But I am pretty sure the yellow tang see's it totally differently.

fishoholic
03-24-2009, 12:31 AM
Good to hear this! My yellow tang is super thin and I thought I fed alot. On the other
hand my hippo is just that a HIPPO. I would love to catch the yellow and put him in my
fish only tank, so he can eat till his heart is content. I feed frozen daily and nori daily
and flakes as well. But out of curiosity what pellets are you feeding? I think I have spoiled my fish as they do not seem to like any pellets. That is once they hit the ground,
maybe it is the wrong pellet food.
If only he would listen when I tell him he could have a home without the hippo tagging
along side him. My hippo has a strange bond with my yellow tang.
But I am pretty sure the yellow tang see's it totally differently.

I feed "New Life Spectrum Marine Fish Formula" 1mm sinking pellets. With the exception of a few of my fish (cleaner wrasse, CBB, clown tang and sometimes my bursa trigger) they all seem to really like them.