The RED List of Fish, Inverts, and Corals

[Myka]

I figured we could all get together and write up a red list of fish, inverts, and corals that should be left in the ocean due to the fact that they are nearly impossible to keep in aquaria for one reason or another. Let's do a red list and a yellow list for those that are questionable. Please suggest animals and I can't think of all of them on my own right now. :lol:

The Red List - Leave these animals in the ocean. Do not buy them, do not encourage LFSs to carry them:

The Yellow List - For very experienced reef keepers only.



RED LIST:


~ Nudibranchs of any kind (have very specific diets and usually die short term)
~ Blue Ribbon Eel (reach 4' length, do not adapt well to captivity, high mortality possibly from Cyanide poisoning)
~ Wild Collected Bangaii Cardinal ("Critically Endangered Species", poor acclimation to captivity, buy captive bred instead)
~ Moorish Idol (rumoured 5% of the fish captured make long term survival, lack of appetite, and prone to disease)
~ Panther Grouper (reach 2' length, "Endangered Species")
~ Butterfly fish - Exquisite, Orange Face, Ornate (these species feed primarily or possibly even exclusively on coral polyps, will starve to death in captivity)

YELLOW LIST:

~ Copper Banded Butterfly (high long term mortality as most are caught using Cyanide)
~ Starfish (other than Brittle and Serpent, most are near impossible to keep long term)
~ Mandarin Dragonets (rarely eat packaged foods, most will only eat live copepods, most will die from starvation)
~ Cleaner Wrasse (specialized diet, poor long term survival)
~ Wild Caught True Percula Clownfish (poor shipping and acclimation rates, high susceptibility to Brookynella)
~ Large Angelfish - Regal, Queen, French, Blue Ring, Emperor (often caught with Cyanide, require specific diet of sponges, prone to disease, often refuse to eat in captivity)
~ Flame Scallops (heavy feeders, high long term mortality)
~ Non-photosynthetic Gorgonian corals (these are usually the brightly colored ones, heavy feeders, high long term mortality)
~ Bamboo sharks (some species reach 4' length)
~ Powder Blue and Powder Brown Tangs (high susceptibility to Ich and HITH, challenging species to keep healthy)

[Zoaelite]

Wow Great Idea! Can you add a few species of Octopus to the red list, specificly the Mimic? Perhaps something about species of Cuttlefish and there has to be some species of Sea Horses that don't do well in captivity/ are rare in the wild?
Levi

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Great idea and Im sure I can think of a few fish for the list although I have to say that the Bamboo shark would be much better on the Yellow list...or IMO not there at all.

They are quite easy to keep if you have a large enough tank or pond.

Also there are many species of Bamboo and only one I believe gets close to 4' (Chiloscyllium punctatum)...although I can think of one more that may also get close most species stay well under 3'. Grey Bamboo sharks for example reach a max of 2.5' and often much less. The very common White Spotted Bamboo is about 32" max.

These are just not unmanageable fish and the best suited to aquariums from the shark family. Any of the reasonable sized bottom dwelling sharks live good lives in the right sized tank. They are just not the most active sharks.

The other problem I have with them being on this list is that the White Spotted Bamboos are mostly all captive bred now. We need more of this in the hobby.

[subman]

Add Pinnate Batfish to the red list :mrgreen:

[naesco]

Great idea.
Everyone benefits and most importantly we stop the necessary deaths of impossible to keep species and give all of us the heads up on those species on the yellow list.

[MikeP]

I think all Anthia's should be on the YELLOW list. Maybe RED depending on the type.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I think all Anthia's should be on the YELLOW list. Maybe RED depending on the type.

Agreed but your going to have to start to get quite specific. Most Anthias will fit on one of the two lists for various reasons. Some are temperate fish for example and just don't belong in our tropical reefs. There are some species that do ok but need specific feedings. You can't just put Anthias on the list (not that you were suggesting that).

I think lists like this can start to get complicated unless you start to add sub categories and not generalize. The Bamboo sharks were a good example...too many species that vary in size to say they all reach 4'.

IMO, pretty much any species should be available. I just don't think they should be part of a regular shipment or common to see in a stores display. Many of the fish on that red list should be special order fish, probably making them expensive and only really sought after by a serious buyer. Someone with the proper set up. I think the real killer in this hobby is impulse buys and lack of knowledge. If these fish are not seen, not easy to get, the average person isn't going to want or look for them but when a Copperband Butterfly is $25 and in stores every few weeks...well people will keep buying and killing them. I am guilty of this. But if someone (and I know someone who does) wants to buy Zoa frags and sponges for their Moorish Idol regularly, then there is no reason they should not be able to keep these fish. His eats absolutely anything it seems anyways...even nori :)

Will never happen but would be nice. This list is a great idea to at least encourage and remind us to make the right decision.

[Haloreef]

Almost every thing we keep now, and consider "easy", was "impossible" less than 20 years ago! Through trial and error we learn. I don't think we should get any animal unless we are ready to try our best to keep it as close to happy as we can. Some animals are harder than others I agree! It was "impossible to breed clown fish, or Manderin Gobies not long ago! I think the best we can hope for is responsible people buy pets of whatever kind! Sadly not always the case!
Just my two cents worth, don't bite my head off.

[i have crabs]

same deal with the panther grouper, easy to keep fish even at 2' if the tank is bigenough, if its on the list for collection reasons thats a different issue
dosent the goverment have a redlist type of deal on fish allowed to be imported? maybe start with that, i can see this getting ugly

[Delphinus]

You know what, I'd consider bamboo sharks on your yellow list instead of your red list. The main problem with them is size, but otherwise, they more or less just sit there on the bottom and don't really have a lot of requirements. The main problem here is that most people will not have an appropriate sized habitat for them. But if you had the space to build, say, a lagoonal habitat that was really long, really wide and shallow, I don't see why they couldn't do fine long-term in there.

Also I disagree about gorgonians. Or at least you have to specify that you mean the non-photosynthetic species as being questionable. There are several species of photosynthetic gorgonians that are incredibly hardy in aquaria. Do agree that the nonphotosynthetic gorgonians belong on the yellow list over the red list because it is not impossible to keep them, but it is rather challenging and rather specific requirements that will be beyond the interest of the average aquarist.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

The main problem with them is size

This is what I was getting at earlier.

I think the list is a great idea but maybe there needs to be more categories. There could be a Yellow list that is caution for size, a Yellow list that is caution for specific diets, a Yellow list for...well you get the point.

If you are going to say 'Bamboo sharks' and base the entire family on ONE species adult size of 4' then you would have to maybe start to consider adding tangs to the list since Whitemargin Unicornfish grow to over 3'.

I know I am being a little difficult because we are talking about commonly available species here and fish like Whitemargin Unicornfish generally are not that common (although you do see them from time to time) but I think the danger here is generalizing instead of being quite specific. Its only fair.

What about Achilles Tangs? Not the best survival rate...

[Chin_Lee]

I vote Achilles Tang in the red list. Their survival rate in captivity is so dismal I swear I will never get one again. I brought 6 back from Hawaii two years ago and as of about 6 months ago, all six have perished.

[Delphinus]

Sorry GSP I didn't even see your reply before I posted mine. Agree 100% on your points. :)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Sorry GSP I didn't even see your reply before I posted mine. Agree 100% on your points. :)

No need to be sorry man...we seem to be thinking the same things today. :mrgreen:

[e46er]

this is a GREAT thread for someone like me who is just getting into the hobby

[TheRealBigAL]

~ Mandarin Gobies (rarely eat packaged foods, most will only eat live copepods, most will die from starvation)~ Gorgonian corals (heavy feeders, high long term mortality)[/QUOTE]

Not Gobies. Mandarin Dragonets

[TheRealBigAL]

Red list fish

Pinnate Batfish- Juveniles are appealing and ornate but the often refuse food and are vulnerable to parasites. and they get big about 20 inches.

Javanese moray- Can grow up to 10 feet.

Napoleon Wrasse- can grow to 7feet and weight 400lbs.

Yellow list

Leopard Wrasse- Difficult to feed need a healthy population of micro inverts.

Signal Goby- Only add to well established tanks.

[fishoholic]

Orange spotted (longnose) filefish, and blue spotted stingray should be on the red list.

Sea horses and pipefish, purple queen anthias, flagfin angelfish, batfish, leopard wrasse, parrotfish, and boxfish should be on the yellow list.

[pterfloth]

Great thread and very good idea!

I think we should take the initiative to be responsible reefkeepers, many of the LFS either are not informed enough or don't care. In my earky days I purchased anthias, leopard wrasse and boxfish without sufficient independant investigation and they all died. I also recently lost 3 captive-bred seahorses to disease despite a well-researched, dedicated tank. On the other hand, I have several other fish that are now more than 6 years old. I take the care of my critters very seriously and hate it when they die.

I am sure that together we can develop a good list that will help new-comers and lessen the trade in livestock that should not be for sale.

I applaud this effort.

[my2rotties]

I noticed some of the species had more detailed reasoning as to why they should not be kept or be kept by experienced reefers. However some are not. I know when I have done my research on fish, I will find info saying generalized reasoning behind not keeping these certain species of fish. Perhaps if others with experience could expand on reasons why from personal experience it might help others. If a species is susceptible to disease, what kind of disease? If a fish typically won't eat perhaps say what was tried for feeding. If a species of fish does not get along with many other fish, perhaps say what fish it was housed with.

Some of us have screwed up along the way, and we all know I have... however if there is info for people that have already impulse bought a fish or was misinformed, and now has a situation, they can maybe help themselves more easily.

[RobynR]

Here is a great reference site for the list. My husband and I check it out every time we find a fish we are considering. http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/badfishlist.shtml

[naesco]

Here is a great reference site for the list. My husband and I check it out every time we find a fish we are considering. http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/badfishlist.shtml

Thanks
When a industry vendor posts this, I think they are trying to tell us something, eh!

TANGS
There is an error on the list and it is a common error.
There are two similar 'powder brown' tangs. japonica and nigricans.
Japonica (the one with the orange on it) is a good tang to have if you meet tank size requirements.
Nicricans is impossible to keep.

[marie]

....
Nicricans is impossible to keep.

If you want to be taken seriously then you need to watch how you word things.
Nigricans is not impossible to keep, I received one in a mix up at JL. The fish lived fine in my 75g tank until I sold it. People who don't know what they are doing may know of someone who has one and when they read the above they may think your full of it.

So instead... A nigricans may be too much of a challenge for most newbies and is better off left in the ocean...A. japonica is a much nicer looking fish anyway and easier to keep :mrgreen:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Here is a great reference site for the list. My husband and I check it out every time we find a fish we are considering. http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/badfishlist.shtml

This list is exactly what I meant when I said things like this need to be well organized and specific. Great list.

[midgetwaiter]

If you want to be taken seriously then you need to watch how you word things.
Nigricans is not impossible to keep, I received one in a mix up at JL. The fish lived fine in my 75g tank until I sold it. People who don't know what they are doing may know of someone who has one and when they read the above they may think your full of it.

So instead... A nigricans may be too much of a challenge for most newbies and is better off left in the ocean...A. japonica is a much nicer looking fish anyway and easier to keep :mrgreen:

You could say something similar about every fish on that list. Just because you managed to do it doesn't mean that 90% of the imports die quickly etc. Hence the fundamental issue with lists like this, somebody always has a counter example.

It's not that I don't agree with the idea but the info is easy to find as it is so why duplicate it here? I don't think somebody is any more likely to notice it here and stop a ill informed purchase than they are to scan the first page of a google result.

[marie]

You could say something similar about every fish on that list. Just because you managed to do it doesn't mean that 90% of the imports die quickly etc. Hence the fundamental issue with lists like this, somebody always has a counter example.

It's not that I don't agree with the idea but the info is easy to find as it is so why duplicate it here? I don't think somebody is any more likely to notice it here and stop a ill informed purchase than they are to scan the first page of a google result.

And that is why I thought he should maybe quite using the word "impossible" ...It's not impossible just hard.

Sometimes the more often things get said the more likely it will sink in

[naesco]

If you want to be taken seriously then you need to watch how you word things.
Nigricans is not impossible to keep, I received one in a mix up at JL. The fish lived fine in my 75g tank until I sold it. People who don't know what they are doing may know of someone who has one and when they read the above they may think your full of it.

So instead... A nigricans may be too much of a challenge for most newbies and is better off left in the ocean...A. japonica is a much nicer looking fish anyway and easier to keep :mrgreen:

In a 75? Well Marie, the definition used in the aquarium pro site is >Fish that may be kept successfully, but ONLY in public aquaria that can supply their specialized needs.
I would say that it was pretty impossible to keep our tanks wouldn't you say?
BTW is the nigricans you sold still alive because typically they do well for a while for a while then seem to peter out and die. Apparently something is missing in the diet we provide in our aquariums.

I would recommend this fish on the red list. Do you agree?

[Myka]

I agree with pretty much all the fish suggested, and the changes suggested as well (as good reasons were provided). That's great! :) I was worried this thread could turn into a poo throwing match...which it still has the potential. ;)

Here is a great reference site for the list. My husband and I check it out every time we find a fish we are considering. http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/badfishlist.shtml

This is pretty much what I was kind of setting out to do. This thread could just as well point to that URL. Although it is always nice to have "our own" CanReef thread.

I received a PM that suggested a few of us more experienced reef keepers get together and decide on a list which I think is a great idea, but this could really become a very large project. I could always start with a base like that link RobynR posted, and we can edit it how we would like to. I'm willing to put some time into this if needed.

I noticed some of the species had more detailed reasoning as to why they should not be kept or be kept by experienced reefers. However some are not. I know when I have done my research on fish, I will find info saying generalized reasoning behind not keeping these certain species of fish. Perhaps if others with experience could expand on reasons why from personal experience it might help others. If a species is susceptible to disease, what kind of disease? If a fish typically won't eat perhaps say what was tried for feeding. If a species of fish does not get along with many other fish, perhaps say what fish it was housed with.

This would be great, but wow it really could turn into a book!! :eek:

What would you guys like to do? Suggestions?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I agree with pretty much all the fish suggested, and the changes suggested as well (as good reasons were provided). That's great! :) I was worried this thread could turn into a poo throwing match...which it still has the potential. ;)



This is pretty much what I was kind of setting out to do. This thread could just as well point to that URL. Although it is always nice to have "our own" CanReef thread.

I received a PM that suggested a few of us more experienced reef keepers get together and decide on a list which I think is a great idea, but this could really become a very large project. I could always start with a base like that link RobynR posted, and we can edit it how we would like to. I'm willing to put some time into this if needed.



This would be great, but wow it really could turn into a book!! :eek:

What would you guys like to do? Suggestions?


I think that list (from the link) is a great start but can also be elaborated on. Its still kind of vague. Many new people to the hobby want more specific reasons for why they are being told not to keep a fish. Just saying diet isn't going to stop a lot of people--its still easy to justify by saying..."well its eating in store and I will feed him well and do my best".

Thats where this thread can come in. Hearing personal and real life stories, good AND bad are what can help people learn.

IMO, if we can't change the stores ordering/sales and can't stop people from buying fish they should not be buying, at least we can advise people how to at least give the difficult fish a fighting chance. AND encourage them to only try once if they really must buy from the red list fish.

I think there are enough "experts" here to put a good list together and really get down to details. Some people are quite experienced with tangs and I know I could learn a lot from them...others like me have kept a ridiculous number of puffers over the past 12 years (6 years saltwater, the rest brackish) but could still learn from others experiences.

What about a nice list/thread with all species commonly available. Will take time but maybe if we encourage "easy" species as well as discourage "difficult" species, we can get somewhere. Offering an alternative to a fish that you are telling someone "no" to may be nice. For example, don't try the Moorish Idol for these reasons... BUT maybe you would like to try a Heniochus which look similar but are easier to care for (granted there is a very tough to care for and ID Heniochus species too...maybe a bad example but you get the point).

Just a thought. Would be a lot of work but with enough time, it would probably come together nicely.

Oh and pictures :D

[whatcaneyedo]

I know you're not looking for more links and want your own list but here is Reef Central's Difficult and Special Care Species list anyways:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1157901

Funny story: I've tried sharing this list with many people in the hobby locally including our LFS and every time I do someone interprets it as saying "no one is allowed to buy ANY of these". Many people just look at how long the list is instead of trying to read it... then I get crap for pretending to be a know-it-all and trying to tell everyone what to do. :rolleyes:

My message is: I support the idea but be careful about how the list is presented.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I know you're not looking for more links and want your own list but here is Reef Central's Difficult and Special Care Species list anyways:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1157901

Funny story: I've tried sharing this list with many people in the hobby locally including our LFS and every time I do someone interprets it as saying "no one is allowed to buy ANY of these". Many people just look at how long the list is instead of trying to read it... then I get crap for pretending to be a know-it-all and trying to tell everyone what to do. :rolleyes:

My message is: I support the idea but be careful about how the list is presented.

This is my favorite quote from that list:

"Centropyge heraldi (almost always caught using drugs)"

I have zero tolerance for drug use in my tank. Any fish caught using drugs is taken straight back to the LFS. Warnings like this are perfect since now I know Lemon Peel Angels are almost always going to do drugs.

[Myka]

My message is: I support the idea but be careful about how the list is presented.

I agree 100%! The idea of this thread was to have a short, sweet list of the commonly available, and commonly lost fish so that it would be an easy, quick read in hopes that more people would take a look. For example, Bangaii Cardinals are nearly extinct in the wild and have a very large chance of becoming extinct in the near future, and I would bet 95% of aquarists have no idea at all. Another example would be Powder Blue Tangs. SUPER popular, but rather difficult to keep healthy, and SO many people have no clue.

[Leah]

The list is a great idea. Alot of the stuff on it can be helpful. And hopefully we do take
some responibility. But my thought is none of us should really do this at all. From live
rock, live sand, corals, fish, even crabs and snails. It is very selfish to say the least but
here we all are. Stealing from the oceans and paying someone along the way to bring us
each what we want. Do we wait till things are endangered before we take a stand. Seems a little backwards to me. We all are guilty if you ask me.
We are not looking at the bigger picture here, there is no way to justify this and if we do
we are only fooling ourselves. On that note, happy reefing everyone. * Meow *

[Snaz]

This list is a great idea. I for one will pledge NOT to purchase any of the species on the RED list.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

This list is a great idea. I for one will pledge NOT to purchase any of the species on the RED list.

I would like to say the same but since I still don't believe in a complete ban of all these red list fish, I can't say I will. In fact I know if I ever found AEFW in my tank, I would be after the Nudibranchs that eat them in a heartbeat. I also have plans to try a Moorish Idol one day (especially since many of the recent ones coming into JL have been eating right away and I will buy it Zoas and sponges to eat). With regards to the Moorish Idol, I will only try one and if it doesn't work, I know better than to keep trying...I learned that lesson with Copperbands.

IMO the red list fish need to be more carefully brought into stores through special order but not banned completely unless they are endangered.

But my thought is none of us should really do this at all. From live
rock, live sand, corals, fish, even crabs and snails. It is very selfish to say the least but
here we all are.

As much as this hobby does its part to destroy the ocean, it is FAR from the leading reason the ocean is in decline. Stop the collection and destruction for this hobby and trust me, the oceans are still going to be disappearing/declining at an alarming rate. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do all we can to help but I find comment like this about how no one should be doing this hobby to be way too "PETA" for me and it drives me nuts...how can you be so hypocritical? There is always a balance.

[Leah]

I would like to say the same but since I still don't believe in a complete ban of all these red list fish, I can't say I will. In fact I know if I ever found AEFW in my tank, I would be after the Nudibranchs that eat them in a heartbeat. I also have plans to try a Moorish Idol one day (especially since many of the recent ones coming into JL have been eating right away and I will buy it Zoas and sponges to eat). With regards to the Moorish Idol, I will only try one and if it doesn't work, I know better than to keep trying...I learned that lesson with Copperbands.

IMO the red list fish need to be more carefully brought into stores through special order but not banned completely unless they are endangered.



As much as this hobby does its part to destroy the ocean, it is FAR from the leading reason the ocean is in decline. Stop the collection and destruction for this hobby and trust me, the oceans are still going to be disappearing/declining at an alarming rate. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do all we can to help but I find comment like this about how no one should be doing this hobby to be way too "PETA" for me and it drives me nuts...how can you be so hypocritical? There is always a balance.
So it gives us the right to take it. You have missed the point here. Yes we all are hypocritical. How would you like to be put in a cage and kept by seacreatures?????
Not much I would guess.

[Madreefer]

These so called "lists" just seem to **** people off more than they do any good. Much easier if people spent a little time doing research. There's too many ignorant people that just figure "oh well... I'm gonna try anyways" Most of what I read are people that have had tanks set up less than 6 months and don't listen anyways. If you don't research, you don't learn. It is probably not a good idea to take a list like this to a LFS telling them what they should and should not sell. Just like another member says "you have to use the proper wording". It can start some nasty arguements.:biggrin:

[my2rotties]

Most times research tells us they are hard to keep due to not eating or water quality must be mint... if the fish is eating and the water params of the reefer are mint, it will give us a green light to go ahead... then little do we know there are other factors involved and the things you know you can provide are simply not enough.

If some fish are coral nippers, and we have a few corals it would be nice to know which corals have been targeted to either remove them of watch them.

I have never bought or will try a red list fish at this point. If I ever did, it would be from another reefer and not the LFS. If people expand on their experience it helps others know better. If someone has made the mistake of buying the fish already any success stories in keeping specialized creatures can help them try their best to be successful themselves.

There are other things about fish like jumping that some research may not show... things like how to keep the fish from jumping and measures reefers had to take to keep them in the tank is appreciated since a canopy might not be enough.

There are only a couple of LFS in my area that are very honest and knowledgeable with customers. There are a few that will tell you anything to make you feel alright about buying the fish. Then you come home with a disaster and the store won't stand by what they told you. However there are a couple of stores that will stand by the info and help you out. However it is not always the case and new reefers have trail and error with every store until they learn the hard way.

These so called "lists" just seem to **** people off more than they do any good. Much easier if people spent a little time doing research. There's too many ignorant people that just figure "oh well... I'm gonna try anyways" Most of what I read are people that have had tanks set up less than 6 months and don't listen anyways. If you don't research, you don't learn. It is probably not a good idea to take a list like this to a LFS telling them what they should and should not sell. Just like another member says "you have to use the proper wording". It can start some nasty arguements.:biggrin:

[Madreefer]

Most times research tells us they are hard to keep due to not eating or water quality must be mint... if the fish is eating and the water params of the reefer are mint, it will give us a green light to go ahead... then little do we know there are other factors involved and the things you know you can provide are simply not enough.

If some fish are coral nippers, and we have a few corals it would be nice to know which corals have been targeted to either remove them of watch them.

I have never bought or will try a red list fish at this point. If I ever did, it would be from another reefer and not the LFS. If people expand on their experience it helps others know better. If someone has made the mistake of buying the fish already any success stories in keeping specialized creatures can help them try their best to be successful themselves.

There are other things about fish like jumping that some research may not show... things like how to keep the fish from jumping and measures reefers had to take to keep them in the tank is appreciated since a canopy might not be enough.

There are only a couple of LFS in my area that are very honest and knowledgeable with customers. There are a few that will tell you anything to make you feel alright about buying the fish. Then you come home with a disaster and the store won't stand by what they told you. However there are a couple of stores that will stand by the info and help you out. However it is not always the case and new reefers have trail and error with every store until they learn the hard way.

As I said "these so called lists start arguements." Listening to some kid making minimum wage at a LFS is not research. I'm not going to add to any list or argue someone elses opinion of what should be on it. I guarantee that the people who are adding to these lists have never owned some of the fish that they are posting up. This fish did'nt work out for me or Joe Blow so you should'nt get it. They don't know what people have for setups and there is alot of people who do not use forums because of conflicting beliefs. My points are that each person should do their own research. And the other is, that nobody should go to someones place of business and tell them how to run it.

[my2rotties]

I whole heartily agree with you...

When I bought my puffer, I bought him from the OWNER of the store who's been in this business for thirty some years... I honestly though he could be trusted since he has been in business so long :neutral: Now I know better and went through some losses of livestock but now have been able to make him work in my system after a lot of trail and error. Now I know better...

I also now have learned to pay for my fish and leave it at the store for a month or two. The stores I shop at have no problem with that, and are happy to do so... This way I can do my homework and decide if the fish will work for my system and see the pros and cons of having this species. It also gives the store a chance to ensure the fish is healthy and eating. The one fish I have sitting at the LFS has been there 10 weeks and has finally been deemed fit for my tank. I have not, and will not be bringing it home, but they are holding it even longer to make sure I don't change my mind. Then they told me what I need to do with my system to ensure he does survive and how to treat him if he does get ill. Many of the stores I deal with do not bring red list species in, but the store I bought my puffer at does... he sold a batfish to a girl whom is struggling to keep him alive now but she was told the fish was fine and eating...

Sometimes research does not bring up things that can and do come up, and personal experience from reefers that have kept these fish would be most helpful. I will never personally ask on the forums about things since it causes heated debates and flames directed at the questions. However I can find people in my research and PM them personally for help which I have done now.

As I said "these so called lists start arguements." Listening to some kid making minimum wage at a LFS is not research. I'm not going to add to any list or argue someone elses opinion of what should be on it. I guarantee that the people who are adding to these lists have never owned some of the fish that they are posting up. This fish did'nt work out for me or Joe Blow so you should'nt get it. They don't know what people have for setups and there is alot of people who do not use forums because of conflicting beliefs. My points are that each person should do their own research. And the other is, that nobody should go to someones place of business and tell them how to run it.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

So it gives us the right to take it. You have missed the point here. Yes we all are hypocritical. How would you like to be put in a cage and kept by seacreatures?????
Not much I would guess.

Give me a break. I haven't missed any point. Your just a little extreme, thus the comparison to PETA. I suggest you find a new hobby if you feel this way.

I have had many conflicting thoughts about the hobby over the years and I agree that it can get very hypocritical but if you feel like no one should be doing it, then start yourself and give up your tank.

And no not everyone is hypocritical because not everyone feels the way you do.

I myself, just couldn't carry on doing something that I felt so strong against. I also would never come to an aquarium board and start saying no one should be keeping the animals they keep.

I think the idea of this list is GREAT. If its done right. There just can't be the extremes or it becomes ridiculous. As stated a bunch of times, it needs to be worded right. A list like this will never be more than a learning tool for people to make a choice. In the end, its not going to stop everyone from buying from the "red" list but hopefully it will make people think twice. Like I said earlier too, I think its important to give people other options along with the difficult to keep fish. Its more likely they won't buy the hard to keep fish if they see that there is something else they like that is similar but has a better survival rate. Just saying no to people doesn't work.

[Myka]

I think you guys are getting a little worked up here, and totally missing the point of this thread. This is supposed to be a learning tool to help newbies (and more seasoned alike) make informed decisions about the fish they choose to put in their aquariums. The more people who can be informed, the better the chances are that some of these fish will not be imported as often as they are. It's a learning tool, not a be all end all. :)

I think the idea of this list is GREAT. If its done right. There just can't be the extremes or it becomes ridiculous. As stated a bunch of times, it needs to be worded right. A list like this will never be more than a learning tool for people to make a choice. In the end, its not going to stop everyone from buying from the "red" list but hopefully it will make people think twice. Like I said earlier too, I think its important to give people other options along with the difficult to keep fish. Its more likely they won't buy the hard to keep fish if they see that there is something else they like that is similar but has a better survival rate. Just saying no to people doesn't work.

Exactly. :)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I think you guys are getting a little worked up here, and totally missing the point of this thread. This is supposed to be a learning tool to help newbies (and more seasoned alike) make informed decisions about the fish they choose to put in their aquariums. The more people who can be informed, the better the chances are that some of these fish will not be imported as often as they are. It's a learning tool, not a be all end all. :)



Exactly. :)

Yes the intention of the list is such a great idea and I hope it gets done...I am more than willing to help out of theres anything I could do.

All that gets to me is when you start to hear the extremes like we shouldn't be keeping any fish. These comments don't help anything. This is a REEF site! PETA has a site if people feel that way.

[Myka]

Yes the intention of the list is such a great idea and I hope it gets done...I am more than willing to help out of theres anything I could do.

All that gets to me is when you start to hear the extremes like we shouldn't be keeping any fish. These comments don't help anything. This is a REEF site! PETA has a site if people feel that way.

Your help would be greatly appreciated. :) I just gotta figure out a way to deal with all the information and present it in an easy to read way. I don't want there to be too much info otherwise I think people will not bother to read it, ya know? Maybe provide minimal details on the main page with links to more information or something to that effect.

It is definitely a bit pointless to be going to the extreme of saying we shouldn't have reef tanks, which does have a certain amount of truth to it, but we shouldn't be eating animals either. In the end, we all have tanks, and most of us eat meat, so it's a bit of a moot point. The idea though is to create as little impact on the natural environment as possible by making informed decisions, and spreading the word. :)

[RobynR]

Just wondering if Chin Lee's fish lifespan polls can accompany this list in any way? The polls are becomming more informative as they age and more people provide input and experiences.

[Myka]

I was thinking along those lines...or even having threads dedicated to each fish on the lists where people can share their good and not so good experiences, but that might end up creating a bunch of new threads that the mods won't be impressed with!! :lol:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I was thinking along those lines...or even having threads dedicated to each fish on the lists where people can share their good and not so good experiences, but that might end up creating a bunch of new threads that the mods won't be impressed with!! :lol:

Doubt the mods would go for it but a new section for this would be the way to go. Then inside a thread for each species which somehow is organized into the color categories such as Red (Extremely difficult, Best left in the ocean), Orange (Difficult, Not recommended) , Yellow (Proceed with caution, experienced keepers), Green (Good survival rate) and then maybe even Purple (Best fish choices for new to the hobby). Might be too much but you get the point. If there was a quick reference list as a sticky at the top of this section with the fish names, species names and color key, that would help direct people quickly.

As for the first post in each individual fish thread...as you said not too much but at least reasons either to keep or not keep the fish along with some data in much the same fashion Fishbase has. Then after that people are free to discuss/debate the fish and share experiences.

Might be too much work though plus I doubt mods are going to want to get that far in depth.

[naesco]

Doubt the mods would go for it but a new section for this would be the way to go. Then inside a thread for each species which somehow is organized into the color categories such as Red (Extremely difficult, Best left in the ocean), Orange (Difficult, Not recommended) , Yellow (Proceed with caution, experienced keepers), Green (Good survival rate) and then maybe even Purple (Best fish choices for new to the hobby). Might be too much but you get the point. If there was a quick reference list as a sticky at the top of this section with the fish names, species names and color key, that would help direct people quickly.

As for the first post in each individual fish thread...as you said not too much but at least reasons either to keep or not keep the fish along with some data in much the same fashion Fishbase has. Then after that people are free to discuss/debate the fish and share experiences.

Might be too much work though plus I doubt mods are going to want to get that far in depth.

Great idea GSP.
Hope the mods go for it.
If experienced reefers using expert authors opinions are willing to share their experience in species they are familiar with in formulating the list, posters can be referred to the list.
Newbies can be directed to the list to avoid unnecessary fish deaths

[marie]

Doubt the mods would go for it but a new section for this would be the way to go. Then inside a thread for each species which somehow is organized into the color categories such as Red (Extremely difficult, Best left in the ocean), Orange (Difficult, Not recommended) , Yellow (Proceed with caution, experienced keepers), Green (Good survival rate) and then maybe even Purple (Best fish choices for new to the hobby). Might be too much but you get the point. If there was a quick reference list as a sticky at the top of this section with the fish names, species names and color key, that would help direct people quickly.

As for the first post in each individual fish thread...as you said not too much but at least reasons either to keep or not keep the fish along with some data in much the same fashion Fishbase has. Then after that people are free to discuss/debate the fish and share experiences.

Might be too much work though plus I doubt mods are going to want to get that far in depth.

I don't mean to confuse the issue (aww who am I kidding yes I do :razz: ) but how do you go about keeping things straight within the colour groupings ie: damsels, great fish, tough as nails, can go in small tanks but still not recommended as a good fish for newbies to get because of the fish's desire to rule the world... or mandarins, they're a hardy, tough as nails fish to keep, providing you can keep it fed. If your tank is big enough and has had enough time to grow a thriving pod population, the mandarin pretty much can look after itself. Nobody bothers them, they can take a wide variety of water parameters and they are disease resistant

[Madreefer]

We have a local website in my town and I have been working on putting a list of different species of fish and a basic description of it with a photo. I did not think of a green, red, or yellow kind of thing. I stole the idea from liveaquaria. Here is an example. It's alot of work but I'm learning in the process as well.
http://northernbcreefsociety.com/msgboard/index.php?topic=368.0

[lorenz0]

in all honesty i think most fish shouldn't even be kept in anything under 100gal...

but you guys are talking about fish that need special requirements. Think about all those fish out there that are housed in small tanks (like yellow tangs in 30 gals). Personally i think anything that isn't recognized as a nano fish should be on that list cause most people'd tanks are under 50gal.

[fishoholic]

This is my favorite quote from that list:

"Centropyge heraldi (almost always caught using drugs)"

I have zero tolerance for drug use in my tank. Any fish caught using drugs is taken straight back to the LFS. Warnings like this are perfect since now I know Lemon Peel Angels are almost always going to do drugs.

Just say NO to drugs :Banane40: :lol:

I would like to say the same but since I still don't believe in a complete ban of all these red list fish, I can't say I will. In fact I know if I ever found AEFW in my tank, I would be after the Nudibranchs that eat them in a heartbeat. I also have plans to try a Moorish Idol one day (especially since many of the recent ones coming into JL have been eating right away and I will buy it Zoas and sponges to eat). With regards to the Moorish Idol, I will only try one and if it doesn't work, I know better than to keep trying...I learned that lesson with Copperbands.

IMO the red list fish need to be more carefully brought into stores through special order but not banned completely unless they are endangered.



I have to agree. Especially since I MIGHT (not 100% for sure yet) be getting an Achilles Tang soon. FYI if I do get one it will be going into the fowlr tank so it will be the only tang in the tank.

Doubt the mods would go for it but a new section for this would be the way to go. Then inside a thread for each species which somehow is organized into the color categories such as Red (Extremely difficult, Best left in the ocean), Orange (Difficult, Not recommended) , Yellow (Proceed with caution, experienced keepers), Green (Good survival rate) and then maybe even Purple (Best fish choices for new to the hobby). Might be too much but you get the point. If there was a quick reference list as a sticky at the top of this section with the fish names, species names and color key, that would help direct people quickly.

As for the first post in each individual fish thread...as you said not too much but at least reasons either to keep or not keep the fish along with some data in much the same fashion Fishbase has. Then after that people are free to discuss/debate the fish and share experiences.

Might be too much work though plus I doubt mods are going to want to get that far in depth.

I really like your idea, I think that it could work fairly well. The mods are a really good group of people on here, I'm sure they wouldn't have to many issues with it as long as it was done in a proper and respectful way.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I don't mean to confuse the issue (aww who am I kidding yes I do :razz: ) but how do you go about keeping things straight within the colour groupings ie: damsels, great fish, tough as nails, can go in small tanks but still not recommended as a good fish for newbies to get because of the fish's desire to rule the world... or mandarins, they're a hardy, tough as nails fish to keep, providing you can keep it fed. If your tank is big enough and has had enough time to grow a thriving pod population, the mandarin pretty much can look after itself. Nobody bothers them, they can take a wide variety of water parameters and they are disease resistant

Easy, Im not sure where the confusion is...you answered your own questions really. A fish like mandarins are NOT a great fish to be encouraging people to keep as they do not have a very high survival rate. They would be an example of a fish that is in a category for more experienced reefers with an established tank. Its just a way to educate people. Hopefully if they see that Mandarins are on a "tough" to keep list, they will think about if their system is suitable.

And damsels, I don't think they would even come up but if they did, came thing, caution would be warned as they can be nasty.

I think your looking at it very one dimensional. Mandarins are not tough as nails unless eating and quite often not eating...so they are not close to an easy fish. They are also cyanide caught a majority of the time. Another reason they should not be encouraged.

Just say NO to drugs :Banane40: :lol:



I have to agree. Especially since I MIGHT (not 100% for sure yet) be getting an Achilles Tang soon. FYI if I do get one it will be going into the fowlr tank so it will be the only tang in the tank.



I really like your idea, I think that it could work fairly well. The mods are a really good group of people on here, I'm sure they wouldn't have to many issues with it as long as it was done in a proper and respectful way.

Ya I think the mods would go for it as long as say Myka is willing to organize it all and get things going :)

Oh and the Achilles Tang is most likely a species I will try one day. I will wait until I have a bigger tank than a 200G because I feel they need more room than an average tang but I would try one day. Thats kind of the point of this. Not to tell people absolutely no but try to make sure if they do feel the need/desire to get a fish like an Achilles, they realize how tough they can be to keep and hopefully provide it with a good home.

[fishoholic]

Ya I think the mods would go for it as long as say Myka is willing to organize it all and get things going :)

Oh and the Achilles Tang is most likely a species I will try one day. I will wait until I have a bigger tank than a 200G because I feel they need more room than an average tang but I would try one day. Thats kind of the point of this. Not to tell people absolutely no but try to make sure if they do feel the need/desire to get a fish like an Achilles, they realize how tough they can be to keep and hopefully provide it with a good home.

Go Myka :cheer2:

I will not buy an achilles unless it is from a reliable source (which I have and is getting some possibly Fri.) and I will not buy one that isn't eating, however my source is reliable and works hard to insure the fish are healthy and eating before selling them, so we'll see what happens.

[marie]

Easy, Im not sure where the confusion is...you answered your own questions really. A fish like mandarins are NOT a great fish to be encouraging people to keep as they do not have a very high survival rate. They would be an example of a fish that is in a category for more experienced reefers with an established tank. Its just a way to educate people. Hopefully if they see that Mandarins are on a "tough" to keep list, they will think about if their system is suitable.

And damsels, I don't think they would even come up but if they did, came thing, caution would be warned as they can be nasty.

I think your looking at it very one dimensional. Mandarins are not tough as nails unless eating and quite often not eating...so they are not close to an easy fish. They are also cyanide caught a majority of the time. Another reason they should not be encouraged.

.


I have had 5 mandarins, 1 female went carpet surfing in the 2nd yr, 1 lived for 4 1/2 years after being bought as an adult and the 3 I have now I've had for at least a year and a half. It has to be more then coincidence that I managed to find 5 mandarins not cyanide caught when they haven't even come from the same source


They have lived through failed heaters (temp down to 68), extreme abuse from an aggressive clown, high ammonia (quarantine tank) , high salinity...ect.. The one thing I have always made sure of is enough live rock to ensure a high pod population until they start eating mysis. 4 out of the 5 eat/ate frozen mysis, the only one that I haven't actually seen eat mysis is the female I have now but her body is thick and obviously not starving.

The point I was making is if a mandarin has a thriving live food source that can sustain itself when first introduced they can survive serious abuse without ill effects. I would never recommend them to newbies simply because a new tank can't possibly support their need for live food but they are by no means difficult


These are but 2 examples I guess what i'm saying is...what makes a fish difficult, any fish no matter what species can die from cyanide does that make them all difficult? If you see an angel that is known for not eating, eating in the store is it still too difficult to keep? Clarkii clowns are as viscious as any damsel. I'm just wondering what line is drawn for a fish to make the red list

[whatcaneyedo]

... and history just keeps on repeating itself. Most people would rather complain and object to a list rather than actively read one and understand its purpose.

Anyways, based on my 5 years of limited experience I'd nominate the banded snake eel, elegance corals, goniopora sp, linkia starfish, and the strawberry blue coral (thats what it was called... I still have no idea of what it actually was) to be added to the red list. Dwarf Lionfish are also quite difficult to wean onto frozen food so maybe the yellow list for them.

[marie]

... and history just keeps on repeating itself. Most people would rather complain and object to a list rather than actively read one and understand its purpose.

....


I don't mean to confuse the issue (aww who am I kidding yes I do :razz: ) ...

:mrgreen:

[3MTA3]

I figured we could all get together and write up a red list of fish, inverts, and corals that should be left in the ocean due to the fact that they are nearly impossible to keep in aquaria for one reason or another. Let's do a red list and a yellow list for those that are questionable. Please suggest animals and I can't think of all of them on my own right now. :lol:

The Red List - Leave these animals in the ocean. Do not buy them, do not encourage LFSs to carry them:

The Yellow List - For very experienced reef keepers only.



RED LIST:


~ Nudibranchs of any kind (have very specific diets and usually die short term)
~ Blue Ribbon Eel (reach 4' length, do not adapt well to captivity, high mortality possibly from Cyanide poisoning)
~ Wild Collected Bangaii Cardinal ("Critically Endangered Species", poor acclimation to captivity, buy captive bred instead)
~ Moorish Idol (rumoured 5% of the fish captured make long term survival, lack of appetite, and prone to disease)
~ Panther Grouper (reach 2' length, "Endangered Species")
~ Butterfly fish - Exquisite, Orange Face, Ornate (these species feed primarily or possibly even exclusively on coral polyps, will starve to death in captivity)

YELLOW LIST:

~ Copper Banded Butterfly (high long term mortality as most are caught using Cyanide)
~ Starfish (other than Brittle and Serpent, most are near impossible to keep long term)
~ Mandarin Dragonets (rarely eat packaged foods, most will only eat live copepods, most will die from starvation)
~ Cleaner Wrasse (specialized diet, poor long term survival)
~ Wild Caught True Percula Clownfish (poor shipping and acclimation rates, high susceptibility to Brookynella)
~ Large Angelfish - Regal, Queen, French, Blue Ring, Emperor (often caught with Cyanide, require specific diet of sponges, prone to disease, often refuse to eat in captivity)
~ Flame Scallops (heavy feeders, high long term mortality)
~ Non-photosynthetic Gorgonian corals (these are usually the brightly colored ones, heavy feeders, high long term mortality)
~ Bamboo sharks (some species reach 4' length)
~ Powder Blue and Powder Brown Tangs (high susceptibility to Ich and HITH, challenging species to keep healthy)

and another qoute from another thread

Nice photos of some really nice corals as usual! :D

However, I have disheartened to see that you carry Banded Sharks (aka Bamboo Sharks), as well as Flying Gurnards. Both of which should be left in the ocean. Could you explain why you endorse the import of these animals?
and another

J&L has a couple things on their New & Noteworthy page that I might be interested in picking up(would these be the red listed items that show?), but not worth it just on my own. If anyone is interested in adding to the order (asap as I'm leaving town on Friday) so we could get over $200 for the $25 air shipping I'd be game. I think if we order before Weds we could get Thursday morning arrival...but I'm not 100% sure. I will call tomorrow if there's some interest in this.

After reading through this forum for some time now one person has stood out above the rest and if no one else will say then I will.

Myka,
It is nice you feel you are being the savior to those who cannot be for themselves. But albeit a little hypocritical.
I read one of your threads awhile back where you stated you have a Tang in your 33G tank that you were having an algae problem with? I just read a post today where you told someone their 65G was to small for a tang? How do you justify this?
In another thread you ask a store to justify themselves....also making statement that 99% of reefers or salt water enthusiasts are not capable of housing these animals.

where do you get this 99% figure from?

Then you go off making this posted thread about "red" list and "yellow" list...and THEN post a "I wanna group buy from J&L" and lo and behold when you go to their "new and noteworthy*tm*(just in case they trademarked it lol) there are at least TWO items on your RED LIST.... Have they justified these imports to you? Have you asked them to justify it?
So I have to ask....what makes it okay for one and not another?

Also your reference to "cyanide caught" in most items on your list...Where do you get this reference? Have you personally seen these injustices? or is this just coming from what you read or hear or the voices? What qualifies you as the leading expert to make these statements as cut and dry facts/truths?

Your post's have a "smile to your face but snicker behind your back" feel to them. I am sorry but I haven't seen anything constructive in your posts. Just judgement. I think an apology to all the members you have talked down to and belittled in all your glory of knowing all would be appropriate. Maybe you should make a "Mykas guide to do as I preach, not as I do". I hope people can go back and see your prior posts to see how much of a hypocrite you are!

If you wanna save the world this certainly isnt the way to do it. If anyone is unsure of what they can and cant do I am sure they can research it and will find most topics are 6 of one half a dozen of another. Opinions are like rearends...everyone has one. Please add me to your red list as I am sure to be extinct soon or at least gone from this forum as free speech seems to actually come with a cost nowadays.

*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

[Madreefer]

Hmmm...... is this what you call deja vu? These "lists" do cause alot of debates. Everyone has such different opinions in this hobby but this topic seems to turn out to be one of the nastiest. I like the extra butter on my popcorn :wink:

[JDigital]

Wow....... :popcorn:

[Haloreef]

3MTA3
I think you may be my new Hero!

[fishytime]

Live from western Canada.....and for the millions reading around the world..... lllllllets get ready to rumbllllllllllllllllllllllllle!:boxing:

[Treebeard]

Whoever has the remote, please hit the pause button. I need to pee first!

[marie]

3MTA3 said everything better then I could of
To make up a list one should only go by their own experiences everything else is hearsay. We have no idea how other people look after their livestock and its always easier to blame a demise on someone else (even so called experts mess up at the fishes expense once in a while).
From my own experience foxfaces should head the yellow list, I went through 3 of them before I could get one that lived in my system and yet everyone has one. To me mandarins are easy and achilles tangs have special needs but aren't impossible

[naesco]

and another qoute from another thread


and another



After reading through this forum for some time now one person has stood out above the rest and if no one else will say then I will.

Myka,
It is nice you feel you are being the savior to those who cannot be for themselves. But albeit a little hypocritical.
I read one of your threads awhile back where you stated you have a Tang in your 33G tank that you were having an algae problem with? I just read a post today where you told someone their 65G was to small for a tang? How do you justify this?
In another thread you ask a store to justify themselves....also making statement that 99% of reefers or salt water enthusiasts are not capable of housing these animals.

where do you get this 99% figure from?

Then you go off making this posted thread about "red" list and "yellow" list...and THEN post a "I wanna group buy from J&L" and lo and behold when you go to their "new and noteworthy*tm*(just in case they trademarked it lol) there are at least TWO items on your RED LIST.... Have they justified these imports to you? Have you asked them to justify it?
So I have to ask....what makes it okay for one and not another?

Also your reference to "cyanide caught" in most items on your list...Where do you get this reference? Have you personally seen these injustices? or is this just coming from what you read or hear or the voices? What qualifies you as the leading expert to make these statements as cut and dry facts/truths?

Your post's have a "smile to your face but snicker behind your back" feel to them. I am sorry but I haven't seen anything constructive in your posts. Just judgement. I think an apology to all the members you have talked down to and belittled in all your glory of knowing all would be appropriate. Maybe you should make a "Mykas guide to do as I preach, not as I do". I hope people can go back and see your prior posts to see how much of a hypocrite you are!

If you wanna save the world this certainly isnt the way to do it. If anyone is unsure of what they can and cant do I am sure they can research it and will find most topics are 6 of one half a dozen of another. Opinions are like rearends...everyone has one. Please add me to your red list as I am sure to be extinct soon or at least gone from this forum as free speech seems to actually come with a cost nowadays.

*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

What a bunch of BS from someone who has 6 posts. Who are you?

[Leah]

My vote would be for having fish police come to our homes, check out what you got
and decide if we should or should not get something!

[my2rotties]

:lol::lol::lol:

Live from western Canada.....and for the millions reading around the world..... lllllllets get ready to rumbllllllllllllllllllllllllle!:boxing:

[naesco]

Instead of posting this drivel, you, Marie and others should be coming to the defense of Myka and the efforts of others to develop a red and yellow list and applauding Myka for the efforts Myka has made to assist reefers.
There will be a red and yellow list on this board for the benefit of all reefs

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

[Madreefer]

:behindsofa:What a bunch of BS from someone who has 6 posts. Who are you?

It's not about how many posts a person has. Who cares who this person is. It's obviously someone who has been around for a while and has setup a new membership just to do some venting and knock someone down a peg or two. It's great that Myka trys to help people but you have to practise what you preach. Myka has created a "guide to this and that" Thats cool and all but to put your name in front of it and call it yours, comes across that you think of yourself as a bit of a guru. Even though she might be very knowledgeable. Rather than putting up a red/green/yellow list it's best to put up a fish library with all the info about that certain species. It's alot of work but could help out alot in the end. This is pretty entertaining but lets not get toooo personal, would'nt want to push someone in to having to use meds.

[brizzo]

Opinions are like rearends...everyone has one. Please add me to your red list as I am sure to be extinct soon or at least gone from this forum as free speech seems to actually come with a cost nowadays.

*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

For once I agree with naesco. It's nice that you have an opinion 3MTA3, and I'm very sure some members will agree with you, and some will not. But I'm going to guess you're a member under another name here to be so familiar with post/thread history, so why hide behind a new forum name?

[Leah]

I am sorry just trying to lighten the air a little. But I just wonder if it really will help. Do
we not read any books. I bought books when I first started this and in all of them they
give ratings tank size basic do's and don'ts. Maybe we should encourage people to read
more. In so many things it is common sense. Yes we have gotton some crapo advice from LFS but I always try and research before I try. Is this not the point we should be trying to get across. Oh and just being pleasant to one another might be a nice idea!
Maybe we should do a book club pass along good ones. I have also bought many books
on fish so I can always check what I might try.

[my2rotties]

I have plenty of books but the contradict each other for info on the fish and so does any research I have done online. Then of course if you go to an LFS, the info is still different then what you really know. Some stores have had no problems with certain fish and others will not bring them in because they are hard to keep... It is tough to know what is right and wrong since there is so much info to be had, and even on the forums, people have different opinions altogether. It makes it tough for us newbies to know what to do.

Even when I ask I get heated comments and then I get private messages saying not to worry, just do this or that and I will be fine. It makes it very frustrating to do the right thing. I have been able to keep mandarins without issue, a copperband butterfly with not a single problem and cleaner wrasses are fine as well. Since I now know they are not an easy fish to keep, I would never advise anyone to get one. I don't want my luck or good fortune in keeping these fish to reflect upon someone that may not be so lucky in the end. I never give advise since I feel I do not know enough to be helpful...

I am sorry just trying to lighten the air a little. But I just wonder if it really will help. Do
we not read any books. I bought books when I first started this and in all of them they
give ratings tank size basic do's and don'ts. Maybe we should encourage people to read
more. In so many things it is common sense. Yes we have gotton some crapo advice from LFS but I always try and research before I try. Is this not the point we should be trying to get across. Oh and just being pleasant to one another might be a nice idea!
Maybe we should do a book club pass along good ones. I have also bought many books
on fish so I can always check what I might try.

[Snaz]

Regardless of skill level there are some species that are not meant for an aqaurium. The panther grouper being a good choice, it is endangered and grows to 2 feet+

Having a list of these fish is a good idea, whether you choose to follow the list is your choice.

If you do ignore such a red list you will go to Fish hell and thousands of guppies of swordfish will torment you forevermore.

[3MTA3]

Instead of posting this drivel, you, Marie and others should be coming to the defense of Myka and the efforts of others to develop a red and yellow list and applauding Myka for the efforts Myka has made to assist reefers.
There will be a red and yellow list on this board for the benefit of all reefs

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

Naesco...Let me start by saying I have read your posts as well....we have enough people in this world telling us what we can and cant do that we dont need a Tang police force on a friendly and informative website.
Its all about how you go about "informing" someone. You dont tell them "OMG YOU CANT HAVE THAT IN YOUR TANK!!!!!!!!!
Most of us even from childhood rebel against such discrimination and authority and will do the exact opposite of what you are saying just to p**s you off when they post it!

As for your mothering words that we should thank or applaud Myka for her efforts??!!!! Are you hearing the same voices or are you related to her? Have you not read the drivel and condesending words she has posted to others ....come to think of it you have just posted the same type of comment towards Marie...wow.
Make a list have and fun doing it...it is great as a reference but JUST that..a reference. What you or I write is not the bible of reefkeeping and certainly not someone who doesnt practice what she preaches. This wasnt meant to attack Myka and make her feel guilty...just to open her eyes and the eyes of others as to how to respond appropriately to someone with questions and treat all members/vendors the same and accordingly.

:behindsofa:

It's not about how many posts a person has. Who cares who this person is. It's obviously someone who has been around for a while and has setup a new membership just to do some venting and knock someone down a peg or two. It's great that Myka trys to help people but you have to practise what you preach. Myka has created a "guide to this and that" Thats cool and all but to put your name in front of it and call it yours, comes across that you think of yourself as a bit of a guru. Even though she might be very knowledgeable. Rather than putting up a red/green/yellow list it's best to put up a fish library with all the info about that certain species. It's alot of work but could help out alot in the end. This is pretty entertaining but lets not get toooo personal, would'nt want to push someone in to having to use meds.

This one just made me laugh :lol: . However you are right...as I said above it is how you go about it. Gold star for you Mr. Madreefer.

For once I agree with naesco. It's nice that you have an opinion 3MTA3, and I'm very sure some members will agree with you, and some will not. But I'm going to guess you're a member under another name here to be so familiar with post/thread history, so why hide behind a new forum name?

Dear Nazerine
I felt responding to you I would be a little more direct and personal. I will have to say your "guessing" is way off the mark. A little known fact is a person can peruse these boards and read all they want without EVER becoming a member. I think you would be surprised of the amount of people who read these forums but are not members nor have they ever posted.
I appreciate you trying to slueth out or direct that I am just another member but it was not until the latest posts of said person did I finally feel a need to "get involved" and become a member. One can only hold their tongue so long and in this case it was the needle that broke the camels back my friend.


I am not trying to hurt someones feelings or start fights...just simply trying to make sure people are treated properly as personally I think people who read these boards without becoming a member will NOT become a member as they choose not to be barraged by nay sayers and know-it-alls when they are asking simple things. Too many boards have these people and it only harms the forum not the person as less people register to become a part of the society. Not one person can say they know it all and what works for one may not work for another.
Remember this is a hobby....the happier we are the more apt we are to continue. I am sure you would not want to be part of a forum being made to feel stupid or dumb for the questions you ask.

I hope everyone can take from this what I had intended and use it in the future to treat people with the same respect you yourself would want.We all in the end will do what we like but having a fun and informative site is what we all need. Good Day

Bruce S

[subman]

Regardless of skill level there are some species that are not meant for an aqaurium. The panther grouper being a good choice, it is endangered and grows to 2 feet+

Having a list of these fish is a good idea, whether you choose to follow the list is your choice.

If you do ignore such a red list you will go to Fish hell and thousands of guppies of swordfish will torment you forevermore.

Yeah I have a panther it was small, cheap, and beautiful (always a bad combination) I bought it on a whim and the LFS said no worries its a great fish! It is a great fish but....

I think the point of this list is just people with experience making recommendations. These are recommendations so take it or leave it this isn't changing the worlds fish laws!

I have seen lately a lot of really nasty comment to other members who have 2 tangs in a 50 or some one who bought a mandarin in a new tank and so on. It surprises me that people are so hard on new hobbyists. We all make and have made mistakes and we come here to learn and share our success and failures so others can learn as well.

Just my two cents I'm no expert at anything but I do like pretending!:mrgreen:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

This is exactly why I said, this kind of thing can't get too extreme. It will only work as a guide that encourages and educates people or it will not work at all.

The idea (to me anyways) was to have a color coded list that let people know there may be some risks or difficulty involved with a species of fish they want to keep and what to look out for and do to give the fish a good chance at survival. This is why I though that suggesting an alternative was very important if your going to try to encourage someone not to buy a certain fish. The powder brown that keeps coming up is a great example--don't tell people not to buy the, just encourage them to get the right species (which is much prettier anyways :) )

I still believe this can work but as I said earlier, I also don't believe there are too many fish that can't be kept in home aquariums (of the commonly available species) if people are educated and have the right set up. Hopefully the "list" would just stop some impulse buys and people who were on the fence about a certain species.

I think it was all meant to be good but maybe started out a little extreme. Wording is everything if you want to people to listen, especially if you are trying to encourage them to NOT do something they want to do.

[Snaz]

Yeah I have a panther it was small, cheap, and beautiful (always a bad combination) I bought it on a whim and the LFS said no worries its a great fish! It is a great fish

Perhaps if you had seen this fish red listed you would not have purchased it. A red list is just another tool that helps an informed aquarist make a good choice to his stock.

[digital-audiophile]

I always try to help where I can, based on my own experience. I've made a lot of bad decisions in this hobby but have learned from all of them.

We were all new to the hobby at one point. I started coming here shortly after I started in the hobby. I started by lurking well before I ever signed up.

There are a lot of good people here that have a lot of great experience and are always ready to help wherever they can.

I think there has been a lot of nasty vibes going around in the past little while. I hate to say but it seems like a lot of the lon timers have just seem to have become annoyed with certain people.

That being said, I really don't think that is is about the questions people ask, it's that despite the best will of what I would call the "core" membership of canreef, advice is ignored or pushed aside and bad results come about.


It's not about just saying that a tang should not be kept in a 50 gallon.. perhaps not but is a 90 or a 300 really much better? These animals are being taken out of the big blue sea and kept in glass boxes.. these are always a poor substitute for the ocean. Can we make our pets lives a little better by providing them with a bigger "cage" sure?

Am I guilty of some of the negativity? perhaps... I always like to help people where I can.. anyone on these boards who knows me or has at least met me in person I would hope find me to be a nice kind helpful person.

Have I made bad choices with my tank? YES i sure have! Despite reading many times about how hard mandarins are to keep I have tried them on two different occasions.. both times the fish dies within a week of captivity.. sadly enough I think I mourn the loss of the $$$ rather than life of the fish and I know that is wrong... we are playing god here keeping these creatures and I should know better.

Am I doing things wrong right now? You bet I am! I have three tangs in my 90.. are they healthy? Yes Are the happy? As far as I can tell.. should I do it? I don't know if it is right but I do and I have success with it.

Anyhow.. just my two cents (well maybe three cents) I just hope that I am respected as a fellow reef keer on the same journey as you all.



**** forgive any spelling mistakes I may have made :p *****

[subman]

perhaps if you had seen this fish red listed you would not have purchased it. A red list is just another tool that helps an informed aquarist make a good choice to his stock.

exactly!

[Jason McK]

Chin Lee spends a great deal of time and energy maintaining the 'Fish Life Span' Polls
Christy Spent months creating a fish reference library
and none of it gets utilized to there potential. You say Doubt the mods would go for it but a new section for this would be the way to go.
But we have already spent exhaustive amounts of time gathering educational reference material so all canreef members can make informed purchases.

In my opinion (not the Mods of Canreef) a red list is rediculous. There will always be success stores and sad failure stories with advanced fish, corals, or inverts. So to say No you shouldn't keep X in an aquarium will never get collective agreement

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I always try to help where I can, based on my own experience. I've made a lot of bad decisions in this hobby but have learned from all of them.

We were all new to the hobby at one point. I started coming here shortly after I started in the hobby. I started by lurking well before I ever signed up.

There are a lot of good people here that have a lot of great experience and are always ready to help wherever they can.

I think there has been a lot of nasty vibes going around in the past little while. I hate to say but it seems like a lot of the lon timers have just seem to have become annoyed with certain people.

That being said, I really don't think that is is about the questions people ask, it's that despite the best will of what I would call the "core" membership of canreef, advice is ignored or pushed aside and bad results come about.


It's not about just saying that a tang should not be kept in a 50 gallon.. perhaps not but is a 90 or a 300 really much better? These animals are being taken out of the big blue sea and kept in glass boxes.. these are always a poor substitute for the ocean. Can we make our pets lives a little better by providing them with a bigger "cage" sure?

Am I guilty of some of the negativity? perhaps... I always like to help people where I can.. anyone on these boards who knows me or has at least met me in person I would hope find me to be a nice kind helpful person.

Have I made bad choices with my tank? YES i sure have! Despite reading many times about how hard mandarins are to keep I have tried them on two different occasions.. both times the fish dies within a week of captivity.. sadly enough I think I mourn the loss of the $$$ rather than life of the fish and I know that is wrong... we are playing god here keeping these creatures and I should know better.

Am I doing things wrong right now? You bet I am! I have three tangs in my 90.. are they healthy? Yes Are the happy? As far as I can tell.. should I do it? I don't know if it is right but I do and I have success with it.

Anyhow.. just my two cents (well maybe three cents) I just hope that I am respected as a fellow reef keer on the same journey as you all.



**** forgive any spelling mistakes I may have made :p *****

Well, I can, forgave you're reefing mistakes but I don't so sure about the grammer mistakes ;)

No seriously though, if you are having success with the tangs, I say continue on. Of course you may not be able to keep them into full adult sizes but enjoy them while you can!

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Chin Lee spends a great deal of time and energy maintaining the 'Fish Life Span' Polls
Christy Spent months creating a fish reference library
and none of it gets utilized to there potential. You say
But we have already spent exhaustive amounts of time gathering educational reference material so all canreef members can make informed purchases.

In my opinion (not the Mods of Canreef) a red list is rediculous. There will always be success stores and sad failure stories with advanced fish, corals, or inverts. So to say No you shouldn't keep X in an aquarium will never get collective agreement

Well then there you go...thats why I said I doubt they would go for it. I didn't mean it in a bad way like it was a good idea but mods wouldn't want to do it...I just meant that they only way this would really work would be a whole new section and that I didn't think the mods would want that.

[brizzo]

Dear Nazerine
I felt responding to you I would be a little more direct and personal. I will have to say your "guessing" is way off the mark. A little known fact is a person can peruse these boards and read all they want without EVER becoming a member. I think you would be surprised of the amount of people who read these forums but are not members nor have they ever posted.
I appreciate you trying to slueth out or direct that I am just another member but it was not until the latest posts of said person did I finally feel a need to "get involved" and become a member. One can only hold their tongue so long and in this case it was the needle that broke the camels back my friend.


And you're complaining about Myka making condescending comments? A simple explanation that you've never signed up before until now would have sufficed.

[Treebeard]

I think these list ideas are good, but should only be used as a guide and not the fish keeping bible.

And for an entertaining afternoon, I think it would be fun to take the list around to the local fish sellers and see how many creatures from the list are for sale, and ask the staff if they are easy to keep. I bought a nudibranch from a lfs and ended up returning it when I found out it would slowly starve. Of course the guy at the lfs said they would eat algae from my tank. :rolleyes:

[Madreefer]

I think these list ideas are good, but should only be used as a guide and not the fish keeping bible.

And for an entertaining afternoon, I think it would be fun to take the list around to the local fish sellers and see how many creatures from the list are for sale, and ask the staff if they are easy to keep. I bought a nudibranch from a lfs and ended up returning it when I found out it would slowly starve. Of course the guy at the lfs said they would eat algae from my tank. :rolleyes:

The entertaining part would be when the person who brings in such a list leaves the LFS afterwards. The conversation and the names that they would be calling this person would be a hoot to hear. If you owned a business and a person comes in telling or showing you what you should or should not sell what would you think or do? Everyones systems or setups are different. There's already been alot of examples on here where something works for one but not the other. I'm really shocked that this thread has not been locked yet and I'm glad it has'nt been. It is a very good debate. So please lets not get out of hand so this thread continues.

[Aquattro]

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

Oh, c'mon, we aren't doing this again? I kept mine for years until my stupidity killed it. It did great in my 75. An example of rules not always applying. sure, they are difficult, but not impossible. so are the red, or yellow, or green with a yellow tick, containing a reddish hue?

Don't pick on Marie because she had good luck with a fish.

Unless a fish, say the ornate butterfly, is undeniably impossible without huge amounts of keeper intervention, a list will always be a guideline, that some will choose to follow, and others will not.
And the LFS will always try to sell whatever comes in the box, we all know they gets lots of substitutions, so what's a person to do? This is a huge complex issue that a list is not going to fix. There's lists all over the place for so many things, heck, we could make a list of them.
This is a good hypothetical conversation, people need to not take it too seriously.

[naesco]

Oh, c'mon, we aren't doing this again? I kept mine for years until my stupidity killed it. It did great in my 75. An example of rules not always applying. sure, they are difficult, but not impossible. so are the red, or yellow, or green with a yellow tick, containing a reddish hue?

Don't pick on Marie because she had good luck with a fish.

Unless a fish, say the ornate butterfly, is undeniably impossible without huge amounts of keeper intervention, a list will always be a guideline, that some will choose to follow, and others will not.
And the LFS will always try to sell whatever comes in the box, we all know they gets lots of substitutions, so what's a person to do? This is a huge complex issue that a list is not going to fix. There's lists all over the place for so many things, heck, we could make a list of them.
This is a good hypothetical conversation, people need to not take it too seriously.

Hey, I will be delighted to see a red and yellow list with some species on it rather than no list at all.
I agree that everyone will not agree on every species and which category they should fall in.

Here is how I understand how LFS purchase livestock and coral.
1. Exporters provide a list to wholesalers of what they have available.
2. Wholesalers provide that list to LFS who indicate the species and size of what they wish to order.
3. Wholesalers provide the LFS list to the exporters who ship the order.
I understand substitutions are now rare as LFS do not appreciate it, especially when they get stuck with Moorish Idol or cleaner wrasses which many of reputable refuse to carry anymore unless they are ordered in by the customer.
BTW can you post a picture of your powder brown tang if you still have it.
Thanks
Wayne

[naesco]

The entertaining part would be when the person who brings in such a list leaves the LFS afterwards. The conversation and the names that they would be calling this person would be a hoot to hear. If you owned a business and a person comes in telling or showing you what you should or should not sell what would you think or do? Everyones systems or setups are different. There's already been alot of examples on here where something works for one but not the other. I'm really shocked that this thread has not been locked yet and I'm glad it has'nt been. It is a very good debate. So please lets not get out of hand so this thread continues.

I make a practice and other reefers as well of chastising LFS if I see cleaner wrasse or moorish idol in their tanks for sale. Why do you think they are not brought in as often. LFS more than anyone know the survivability of these species in their own tanks and reputable LFS do not order them anymore unless requested by a customer.

[my2rotties]

Marie mentioned some where in this thread that she sold it. I am not sure if she would know if it is alive or not now. I can say I have never been to an LFS and not seen cleaner wrasses available. At least in my neck of the woods. I have always had good luck with mine.

Hey, I will be delighted to see a red and yellow list with some species on it rather than no list at all.
I agree that everyone will not agree on every species and which category they should fall in.

Here is how I understand how LFS purchase livestock and coral.
1. Exporters provide a list to wholesalers of what they have available.
2. Wholesalers provide that list to LFS who indicate the species and size of what they wish to order.
3. Wholesalers provide the LFS list to the exporters who ship the order.
I understand substitutions are now rare as LFS do not appreciate it, especially when they get stuck with Moorish Idol or cleaner wrasses which many of reputable refuse to carry anymore unless they are ordered in by the customer.
BTW can you post a picture of your powder brown tang if you still have it.
Thanks
Wayne

[naesco]

I think these list ideas are good, but should only be used as a guide and not the fish keeping bible.

And for an entertaining afternoon, I think it would be fun to take the list around to the local fish sellers and see how many creatures from the list are for sale, and ask the staff if they are easy to keep. I bought a nudibranch from a lfs and ended up returning it when I found out it would slowly starve. Of course the guy at the lfs said they would eat algae from my tank. :rolleyes:

Great idea. Let's us do it this weekend and see who is carrying cleaner wrasse, Moorish idol, Powder brown (nigricans) and some of the potential red/yellow species and post the results.
It would be really interesting.
Wayne

[Madreefer]

Great idea. Let's us do it this weekend and see who is carrying cleaner wrasse, Moorish idol, Powder brown (nigricans) and some of the potential red/yellow species and post the results.
It would be really interesting.
Wayne

Looking forward to seeing the results. BTW I've read alot of your posts as well, your avatar goes well with your attitude. Anyone remember where this quote is from? "Save the cheerleader, save the world."

[VFX]

Hiro in Heros

[Aquattro]

BTW can you post a picture of your powder brown tang if you still have it.
Thanks
Wayne

Wayne, you're not reading. :) I said I killed it, but we did argue about it, and I posted pics of it for many years way back in the old days. We've been all around this one before.

[Snaz]

Anyone remember where this quote is from? "Save the cheerleader, save the world."

Sounds like Buffy to me!
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/buffy-vampire-slayer-dvd-cover.jpg

[Doug]

Sounds like Buffy to me!
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/buffy-vampire-slayer-dvd-cover.jpg


I would not tell anyone I knew that.......:laugh:

[naesco]

Wayne, you're not reading. :) I said I killed it, but we did argue about it, and I posted pics of it for many years way back in the old days. We've been all around this one before.

The only reason for asking for the photo was simply to determine which of the two 'powder brown' species we are talking about.

[Aquattro]

The only reason for asking for the photo was simply to determine which of the two 'powder brown' species we are talking about.

You confirmed it last time I posted, it was a nigricans. I agree that one should not take one of these fish if the japonicus is available, but let's face it, we've been discussing this for 10 years and they're still coming to the LFS. They always will, as long as fish are sold as pets.

[Jason McK]

I think Brad and I talked japonicus/nigricans in 2003

I had a japonicus he had the nigricans

[naesco]

I think Brad and I talked japonicus/nigricans in 2003

I had a japonicus he had the nigricans

Thanks

[Myka]

First of all, oh yes I am probably one of the most hypocritical bastards in the world! :D I will say that for sure. I don't follow a lot of the rules when it comes to my own tank, but I definitely wouldn't recommend that to anyone else! ;)

You miss the point of most of my postings. My aim is to help newbies out. That is my biggest payoff on these boards. Keep in mind that most of the threads I post in are threads started by people who are new to reef keeping. There are a lot of "rules" or general guidelines if you will that will really help a newbie out to follow them. Once someone gains more experience they can branch out and try new or more challenging things without as much risk. Newbies are often put off of reef keeping because they bite off a bigger chunk than they can chew. If there are more experienced reefers around that can help to keep those newbies keep things under control then there are greater chances that there will be another great reefer in the world. :)

After reading through this forum for some time now one person has stood out above the rest and if no one else will say then I will.

Myka,
It is nice you feel you are being the savior to those who cannot be for themselves. But albeit a little hypocritical.
I read one of your threads awhile back where you stated you have a Tang in your 33G tank that you were having an algae problem with? I just read a post today where you told someone their 65G was to small for a tang? How do you justify this?

I sure do. My Kole Tang is rather a cute lil thang. His body is about the same size as my Bangaii Cardinals' bodies. Point being, his current size is not too large for the tank, but I have no plans to get a 100+ gallon tank to house him, so he will have a new home - soon too as he has not done the job I hoped he would. I bought him with this in mind, and I took over a year to find a specimen small enough for my tank at which point I paid a grossly large amount for him.

No I didn't tell someone their 65 was to small for a tang (at least not the last little while), I told someone their 90 was too small for a Sailfin Tang. Don't you agree?

In another thread you ask a store to justify themselves....also making statement that 99% of reefers or salt water enthusiasts are not capable of housing these animals.

where do you get this 99% figure from?

My ass. I could have said 63%, would that have worked better for you? Seriously though, I have done enough work in retail stores when I was younger, and also just simply by looking on forums like these or RC, and it's not difficult to see that 95/97/99% (a large percentage anyway) are not capable of housing a Flying Gurnard or a Banded Bamboo shark. Do you disagree?

Then you go off making this posted thread about "red" list and "yellow" list...and THEN post a "I wanna group buy from J&L" and lo and behold when you go to their "new and noteworthy*tm*(just in case they trademarked it lol) there are at least TWO items on your RED LIST.... Have they justified these imports to you? Have you asked them to justify it?
So I have to ask....what makes it okay for one and not another?

Oh I know!!! J&L's New & Noteworthy page this week is AWFUL!! :eek: There are at least 4 critters on there that should be left in the ocean (or kept by experienced reef keepers only for the sake of argument). I have seen red/yellow listed animals in every store that I have bought livestock from at some point or another. I didn't mention anything about it on these forums because J&L doesn't respond as they don't check these forums very often. Does this mean I shouldn't try to make a difference?

Oh, and if you're that interested I wanted to order a photosynthetic gorgonian, and a brain coral.

Also your reference to "cyanide caught" in most items on your list...Where do you get this reference? Have you personally seen these injustices? or is this just coming from what you read or hear or the voices? What qualifies you as the leading expert to make these statements as cut and dry facts/truths?

Well I have been keeping reefs since somewhere around 1990 ish, so I'm glad someone's finally recognized me as a leading expert! I'm flattered! :o

:lol:

Seriously though, it doesn't take an expert to do a little research to find plenty of literature on cyanide caught fish, and which species are more likely to be caught that way. Have you personally seen these fish caught with cyanide? No? Does that mean it doesn't happen?


*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

You're a bit of an extremist aren't you? You're like the kettle calling the pot black. The red/yellow list for example, as I've already said is not a be all end all. The point of it is to help newbies, and if newbies are told "NO!" instead of "Well, maybe if you do this this this..." then that's not necessary a bad thing in many cases. ;)






Hey Brad, would you change my "Member" to "Rogue Reef Bully" please? I think it would be more suiting. :D

[Madreefer]

Hiro in Heros

You got it:rolleyes:
I guess that one went over some heads. Just out of curiosity since we are now gonna move this to bashing J&L......... does any one person want to tell the rest of us why they got fired from J&L?

[Aquattro]

No, we're not bashing anyone. And I got fired for setting the fishies free in English Bay. Oh well.

[es355lucille]

I am in favour of a guide........but there are lots of guides and information all over the internet. I have now purchased at least 8 saltwater fish and coral/inverts books and have read all Myka's guides and most of Randy Holmes-Farley's papers. (And I have never taken as much tylenol as I have in the last month!!)

People get excited over the fish "not to keep". Then you see that guy with fish galore and he is doing well with them. Some people say "you cannot keep these fish" but others have and are still doing fine. There are exceptions to all the rules of life.

So what does this come down to: Some of us will try to keep some of those "hard to keep fish" and some of them will die, and some will do well. The owners of the dead fish will spout all the "hard to keep fish" a couple of years from now and all the newbie’s will have to go out on there own, confused as we are now. (not that all red list specimens are in danger of newbie purchases)

WHY? Its human nature and that’s how HUMANS learn, not matter how much literature we read or are told by people that have grand experience. (That book smart VS real life experience syndrome)...of course there are just the rebels of the forum - you know who you are!!

There is no sense in getting worked up about it.

If we keep having people judging everyone’s tanks no one will want to post here anymore.

Hey....hold on here.....ok....I see the conspiracy now!!! :biggrin:

Seriously, please treat people the way you want to be treated. (I have read this more than once) and I see newbie’s sticking up for others on here now. That’s just weird.....are we not just the little people!!! I must have missed the memo!

Have Fun and keep Reefing!

Thanks
Brad

[Myka]

Oh what Brad (Aquattro), no "Rogue Reef Bully" for me??? Oh I so sad now Brad... :'(

[Lance]

Instead of posting this drivel, you, Marie and others should be coming to the defense of Myka and the efforts of others to develop a red and yellow list and applauding Myka for the efforts Myka has made to assist reefers.
There will be a red and yellow list on this board for the benefit of all reefs

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?



As I see it, it is this kind of statement that makes this whole list idea unfeasible. Some people are too quick to chastise somebody, and use too sharp a tongue when doing so. There may be underlying circumstances as to why a person may have purchased a certain animal:

eg. Marie stated that the fish was sent to her in error. She didn't order that fish. (Besides which, Marie is an experienced hobbyist and has several difficult species thriving in her tank.)

eg. I bought a Mandarin Dragonet when my tank was only 6 months old. Did I think my tank was ready for it? No. I didn't particularly even want the fish. I purchased the fish from an LFS because it had been sitting in a tank for 2 weeks without any live rock and was wasting away. I brought the fish home and over the next 6 months I purchased 7 bottles of Tigger pods to keep a decent pod population going. I have had him now for over a year and he is healthy and fit, without as far as I know ever eating any prepared foods. Yet, I've received hell on more than one occasion for owning a Mandarin.

eg. I bought a 3" Sailfin Tang for my 90 gal tank. Sure enough, I caught hell for it: "It'll grow too large for your 90 and you won't get a bigger tank for it". He's now about 6" and I have a 225 gal home for him.

The point I'm trying to make is that things are not always black and white, and jumping all over someone for an animal they may keep is why, IMO, although it may be a nice idea in theory, this "LIST" idea is not going to work.

[karazy]

Guys, girls,


YOU ARE ALL BEING VERY IMMATURE.

Yes you want to voice your opinion, and yes you probably think the other guys/girls opinion is wrong, but come on already.
You people are taking shots on each other, some of which don't even pertain to the topic,
and just voicing your opinion in a very immature way that no one really needs to read about on a public forum for all ages.


This thread was obviously made to help out people who are new to reef keeping, or even people who aren't new to the hobby, find out if fish that they want would be a suitable and responsible choice.
Not a 10 page long fight over your opinions.

I will be making no reply's if someone calls me out on this because i didn't reply to this thread for more fighting.

Mods, can you please get rid of this thread so canreef can be a more positive place?

And reefers, I personally think its kind of sad when a 13 year old has to tell you whats wrong.

[Samw]

You're a bit of an extremist aren't you? You're like the kettle calling the pot black. The red/yellow list for example, as I've already said is not a be all end all. The point of it is to help newbies, and if newbies are told "NO!" instead of "Well, maybe if you do this this this..." then that's not necessary a bad thing in many cases. ;)




While reading this thread, I did see extremist attitudes. However, he did not come off sounding extreme. I'm not saying you did either. I'll leave it at that.

[Samw]

Guys, girls,


YOU ARE ALL BEING VERY IMMATURE.



And reefers, I personally think its kind of sad when a 13 year old has to tell you whats wrong.


Bravo. :clap2:

[fishoholic]

Chin Lee spends a great deal of time and energy maintaining the 'Fish Life Span' Polls
Christy Spent months creating a fish reference library
and none of it gets utilized to there potential. You say
But we have already spent exhaustive amounts of time gathering educational reference material so all canreef members can make informed purchases.

In my opinion (not the Mods of Canreef) a red list is rediculous. There will always be success stores and sad failure stories with advanced fish, corals, or inverts. So to say No you shouldn't keep X in an aquarium will never get collective agreement

I like the idea of a coloured list, for a sort of lazy person such as myself, it would be a quick and easy reference guide. No hunting through pages of information before finding out that the fish I might want isn't a good choice.



Guys, girls,


YOU ARE ALL BEING VERY IMMATURE.

Yes you want to voice your opinion, and yes you probably think the other guys/girls opinion is wrong, but come on already.
You people are taking shots on each other, some of which don't even pertain to the topic,
and just voicing your opinion in a very immature way that no one really needs to read about on a public forum for all ages.


This thread was obviously made to help out people who are new to reef keeping, or even people who aren't new to the hobby, find out if fish that they want would be a suitable and responsible choice.
Not a 10 page long fight over your opinions.

I will be making no reply's if someone calls me out on this because i didn't reply to this thread for more fighting.

Mods, can you please get rid of this thread so canreef can be a more positive place?

And reefers, I personally think its kind of sad when a 13 year old has to tell you whats wrong.

Well said, but there is a lot of good info in this thread that I would hate to see lost.

[Aquattro]

There is good info, and I don't think we'll close it so far, but let's get back to positive input. Banners in 100 font is not needed either, it just fuels the fire. Please, let's be nice and positive, see if we can help new hobbyists make better choices.

[marie]

As far as I'm concerned the fish polls are great and I check it a lot. If only they could be reset on a yearly basis it would be even better :mrgreen:

[fishoholic]

My ass. I could have said 63%, would that have worked better for you? Seriously though, I have done enough work in retail stores when I was younger, and also just simply by looking on forums like these or RC, and it's not difficult to see that 95/97/99% (a large percentage anyway) are not capable of housing a Flying Gurnard or a Banded Bamboo shark. Do you disagree?




Who knew your a$$ was so smart :razz: :lol: (sorry I just really couldn't help myself) Honestly though Myka makes a very good point, there are certain fish that :n00b: should not keep until they get more experience and their are some fish that probably should never be kept.

For example a LFS here got in these cute little butterflyfish (eightbanded or cheatodon octofasciatus) when I asked an employee about them he admitted that the order was a mistake and that probably all of them would die since they only eat certain types of SPS coral in the wild. Now say it wasn't a reputable fish store or had knowledgeable staff working there and they said it was fine and suitable, now say if I have knowledge of a quick list I could easily check and this fish come up "red" then maybe I'll decide for myself that it would be a poor choice.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I wasn't going to reply again (but of course I am) because this thing has really gotten so ridiculous.

This really was just meant to be a good, positive thing. I really can't wrap my head around why anyone who doesn't like the idea of the list would even care if its made or not. No one is trying to pass laws here and take your fish from you. No one is telling you your wrong. If you didn't like it, stay away. Don't contribute to this thread. Just move on to the next one. Why reply at all?!?

Myka didn't start this to be a debate about whether a list should be made or not. The list was simply being made as a GUIDE for people to learn from. If its done right, it can be a great tool to go along with the others we have already on this site. Instead this thread has just gone WAY off topic and become a stupid debate about what would go on what list and why there shouldn't be a list at all.

It only got off topic because people didn't like the idea...well you didn't have to get involved.

:laluot_05:

[Samw]

Anyone remember where this quote is from? "Save the cheerleader, save the world."

Originally Posted by VFX
Hiro in Heros
You got it:rolleyes:
I guess that one went over some heads.

One person can save the world?? I give up. Explain.



And I got fired for setting the fishies free in English Bay

So that's where the lionfishes came from.

[saltwaterseahorses]

Wow Great Idea! Can you add a few species of Octopus to the red list, specificly the Mimic? Perhaps something about species of Cuttlefish and there has to be some species of Sea Horses that don't do well in captivity/ are rare in the wild?
Levi

are they still for sale?what type?
send a pic?send a pm also in reply?

saltwaterseahorses

[my2rotties]

Evan as usual you outshine most of us older folks... please always stay positive, as a young gentleman like you speaking out does mean something. Next time I'm in the store I'll have to bring you something.

Guys, girls,


YOU ARE ALL BEING VERY IMMATURE.

Yes you want to voice your opinion, and yes you probably think the other guys/girls opinion is wrong, but come on already.
You people are taking shots on each other, some of which don't even pertain to the topic,
and just voicing your opinion in a very immature way that no one really needs to read about on a public forum for all ages.


This thread was obviously made to help out people who are new to reef keeping, or even people who aren't new to the hobby, find out if fish that they want would be a suitable and responsible choice.
Not a 10 page long fight over your opinions.

I will be making no reply's if someone calls me out on this because i didn't reply to this thread for more fighting.

Mods, can you please get rid of this thread so canreef can be a more positive place?

And reefers, I personally think its kind of sad when a 13 year old has to tell you whats wrong.

[subman]

I would really love to start this thread again and actually do a list!:wink:

[my2rotties]

I do find the guide most helpful especially for endangered fish. I had no idea they were collecting endangered species and I as a hobbyist will not ever buy an endangered species. That is my first and foremost concern so if the list specifies this I will always consult it. I now know to look for this on my own sicne it has been brought up.

[marie]

Karazy I think it was me that started stirring this thread up and I do apologize but I have noticed lately that a few members get annoyed when their advice isn't taken as gospel truth when in fact it is just advice to be taken or not at the posters discretion.
Having a *red* list on canreef may make some feel obligated to harass anyone who stocks or attempts a fish on the list

[russp]

As a newbie to the sw fish hobby I would like to say that this list would be a great reference tool , this does not mean that I would follow to the last letter but somewhere to start my research on a new fish or invert. Also i would like to add that I have noticed that Myka & many others are always willing to offer a valued opinion & it is much appreciated. It means more to me to gain knowledge through my own & others questions on this forum than trial & error . By the way the needle that broke the camels back???????

needle in haystack
the straw that broke camels back

[Bell Guy]

help a lot!!!!!!!!!!!
:razz:

[Myka]

For those that are interested, I (as well as some other members who have volunteered) will be working on a CanReef version of a red list designed to help newbies make informed decisions about stocking their tank. Hopefully some more experienced reef keepers may even learn a thing or two as well. It will take some time to get the list, which I remind you guys is not a be all end all list.

Reef keeping would never advance if there weren't people out there willing to take some chances and push the envelope, but (imo) many of those attempts should be left for the more advanced aquarists who have a better chance of success. I think it would be great if more LFSs were proactive on this subject and only brought "red list" livestock in on special order. I think it starts with us, the reef keepers.

[karazy]

Evan as usual you outshine most of us older folks... please always stay positive, as a young gentleman like you speaking out does mean something. Next time I'm in the store I'll have to bring you something.

thank you very much :) kind words from a kind person :)

Marie,
i thank you for your apology, and please don't think you were the only one making trouble.


People, i know i did go a little bit extreme, and my large letters were a bit immature,
but i was tired of trying to get info from this thread and having to read all this terrible fighting and i wanted to get a point across.

im excited for this list and cant wait to see how it turns out :)

[Aquattro]

By the way the needle that broke the camels back???????

needle in haystack
the straw that broke camels back

thank you :)

[3MTA3]

And you're complaining about Myka making condescending comments? A simple explanation that you've never signed up before until now would have sufficed.


Nazerine,

I apologize for being condescending and immature towards you. By no means was this called for and I hope you can accept my apology. I let my emotions get the best of me in what was a "heated debate"
Again I apologize.

Also I have read further in this thread and thank you for pointing out it was the STRAW that broke the camels back and not the needle:redface::lol:

now off to address the reply by Myka and put this "debate" to rest. Actually I will simply just say this....Each is entitled to his/her own opinion....You know mine and I know yours. I will try and be less an "extremist" :confused: but am not one to be quiet for long when I see ignorance (even including my own Nazerine)

Nice to see things have settled down and people are actually using their words to explain themselves and not be taken inappropriately. GOLD STARS for everyone!!!!!! Especially Karazy... you in fact seem to be the sanest and mature person of us all including myself :wink:


B.S.

[my2rotties]

If you ever have to opportunity to meet Evan (karazy) you will be dumb founded by his maturity and eagerness to learn. He volunteers at one of the LFS my hubby and I deal with and it is so refreshing to see a young and budding reefer. Can any one of you remember a day you went to work for free somewhere on a weekend? He has a smile form ear to ear while he scrapes algae and target feeds corals. I even feel comfortable asking him questions about my reef. I was going to see if he can tank sit for me if we take off with our dogs for a day or two...:wink: He would get paid well.


Nazerine,

I apologize for being condescending and immature towards you. By no means was this called for and I hope you can accept my apology. I let my emotions get the best of me in what was a "heated debate"
Again I apologize.

Also I have read further in this thread and thank you for pointing out it was the STRAW that broke the camels back and not the needle:redface::lol:

now off to address the reply by Myka and put this "debate" to rest. Actually I will simply just say this....Each is entitled to his/her own opinion....You know mine and I know yours. I will try and be less an "extremist" :confused: but am not one to be quiet for long when I see ignorance (even including my own Nazerine)

Nice to see things have settled down and people are actually using their words to explain themselves and not be taken inappropriately. GOLD STARS for everyone!!!!!! Especially Karazy... you in fact seem to be the sanest and mature person of us all including myself :wink:


B.S.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Nazerine,

I apologize for being condescending and immature towards you. By no means was this called for and I hope you can accept my apology. I let my emotions get the best of me in what was a "heated debate"
Again I apologize.

Also I have read further in this thread and thank you for pointing out it was the STRAW that broke the camels back and not the needle:redface::lol:

now off to address the reply by Myka and put this "debate" to rest. Actually I will simply just say this....Each is entitled to his/her own opinion....You know mine and I know yours. I will try and be less an "extremist" :confused: but am not one to be quiet for long when I see ignorance (even including my own Nazerine)

Nice to see things have settled down and people are actually using their words to explain themselves and not be taken inappropriately. GOLD STARS for everyone!!!!!! Especially Karazy... you in fact seem to be the sanest and mature person of us all including myself :wink:


B.S.

Awwwwwwwwww... :hug:

[Samw]

Can any one of you remember a day you went to work for free somewhere on a weekend?

Reminds me of me in 1985 when I worked at Newton Pets for just experience and maybe some credit for fish. :) I cleaned tanks and bagged fish. No salt tanks though. Not many reefers back then.

[phillybean]

Well I figure I'll chime in...

I currently have a CBB, Cleaner Wrasse and Sandsifting Star. I have two Percs, not sure if they were wild caught or captive bred. I also have a Naso in a 75 which some people say it too small for him. Currently, all of them are healthy, eating well and disease free. I'll consider all of them to be a success after a years time.

I think it is important to be a responsible reefer, however at the end of the day, if I see any item in a store that looks unhealthy and I feel I have a chance of saving it, I'll do it.

If I see something at the store that I've wanted for awhile and it is healthy and eating, I'll do it as well, as long as I feel I am capable and my tank is capable of supporting it. That's why I don't have a Mandarin Dragonet yet, but I plan to add one in the future.

The only way to change what fish are on the market or not, imo at least, is to work with the government, CITIES, to stop them from issuing permits to import/export certain fish, inverts and corals. If there is enough scientific evidence to support it, although it may be a lot of work, that is the best way to go about it. Between posters here and on other popular message boards, starting a petition to outlaw the importation of certain fish/inverts/coral shouldn't be overly difficult and a letter from one or more marine biologists would help.

[brickwood]

This was one of the funniest threads I have ever read in my life. I have come to one conclusion. EVERYBODY IS CRAZY!!!!! I love it. Keep up the good comedy. IMO, the list is a bad idea. Education is what everybody needs. I am sure that none of you are Marine Biologists (not a fact, just a guess. Don't beat me up 3mta3) and what we have heard or read is all just opinions. Please only go with the facts. It is pretty much morally wrong to keep any animal as a pet but we do. Do your best to get educated and make smart educated decisions. Take it or leave it. Just another opinion.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

This was one of the funniest threads I have ever read in my life. I have come to one conclusion. EVERYBODY IS CRAZY!!!!! I love it. Keep up the good comedy. IMO, the list is a bad idea. Education is what everybody needs. I am sure that none of you are Marine Biologists (not a fact, just a guess. Don't beat me up 3mta3) and what we have heard or read is all just opinions. Please only go with the facts. It is pretty much morally wrong to keep any animal as a pet but we do. Do your best to get educated and make smart educated decisions. Take it or leave it. Just another opinion.

Your right about everyone being crazy :mrgreen:

But I strongly disagree about there not being much fact in these kinds of threads. A lot of what people are giving here is either fact or personal experience which is also fact. In fact, personal experience is usually the best way to learn. And you don't have to be a biologist. My older brother is a marine biologist (who I rarely ever see anymore :( ) and would be the first to tell you that unless they work closely with the aquarium world (which he does not), they are not a great resource. When he had a tank going a few years back, he used to always ask me for advice. Aquariums are a whole different world ;)

But I do get your point...and agree with a lot of it (other than it being morally wrong to own pets).

[Leah]

O.m.g.

[fishytime]

Ok everybody....:grouphug:

[my2rotties]

Hey... I never see those smiley faces... where did you get those?

Ok everybody....:grouphug:

[fishytime]

Hey... I never see those smiley faces... where did you get those?

Click the "more" at the bottom of the smilie window.:peace:

[brizzo]

Nazerine,

I apologize for being condescending and immature towards you. By no means was this called for and I hope you can accept my apology. I let my emotions get the best of me in what was a "heated debate"
Again I apologize.

Aww thanks! The first internet apology in YEARS! :mrgreen:

I forgive you, and hope that you can help contribute to this forum more now that you are a member :party:

[my2rotties]

Funny how smilies can redirect a thread to more positive things...:laluot_31::laluot_31:

Click the "more" at the bottom of the smilie window.:peace:

[Leah]

That is soo cute!!!

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Funny how smilies can redirect a thread to more positive things...:laluot_31::laluot_31:

Oh no...what have we started. I always wondered why you never used all the cool smiles.









:llama:

[my2rotties]

There are just too many to look through and I can never find one to express how I may or may not be feeling... no smilies in this post.

QUOTE=GreenSpottedPuffer;403771]Oh no...what have we started. I always wondered why you never used all the cool smiles.









:llama:[/QUOTE]

[fkshiu]

This thread is awethum man! And I love similies (as opposed to metaphors).

:bananahuge:

:boom:

:banplease: :kev: :violin: :brick:

[Leah]

Yeah, we have pushed back all that evil. I am jealous wish I could do more than just type. LOL

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

:Banane41::Banane41::Banane41::Banane41::Banane41: :Banane41::Banane41::Banane41::Banane41::Banane41: :Banane41::Banane41::Banane41::Banane41:





:Banane18:

[little_c]

If you ever have to opportunity to meet Evan (karazy) you will be dumb founded by his maturity and eagerness to learn. He volunteers at one of the LFS my hubby and I deal with and it is so refreshing to see a young and budding reefer. Can any one of you remember a day you went to work for free somewhere on a weekend? He has a smile form ear to ear while he scrapes algae and target feeds corals. I even feel comfortable asking him questions about my reef. I was going to see if he can tank sit for me if we take off with our dogs for a day or two...:wink: He would get paid well.

Keep your hands off my staff. I'm watching you.

[my2rotties]

I would ask you to tank sit for me, but you have enough on your plate... plus you would be late:wink: Funny how you lurk in the shadows, ready to punce on your prey...

Can you come pick up your goats out of my backyard by the way... I'm sick of sending the dogs off to chase them away.:lol:


Keep your hands off my staff. I'm watching you.

[no_bs]

I was looking for info on my fish today and found this page. It is a begining.

www.iucnredlist.org

[whatcaneyedo]

Mexican Turbo Snails - Turbo spp. (Subtropical and do not survive well with normal reef tank temperatures)

Margarita Snails - Tegula funebralis (Slowly 'cook' to death in normal reef aquarium temperatures)

Long Nosed Filefish - Oxymonocanthus longirostris (natural diet is acropora polyps)

Cone shells - Conus Spp. (deadly)

Blue Ring Octopus - Hapalochlaena maculosa (deadly)

Harlequin Shrimp - Hymenocera sp. (need to eat starfish to survive)