Closed Loops (New design)

[Myka]

Ok, so I sold the 40 in BC, and bought a 90 out here in Saskatchewan. So, I'm thinking I will do a small 2-way closed loop on this tank for three reasons:

~ So I can hopefully eliminate most if not all powerheads.

~ T the pump outlet for an easy water change system like superduperwesman did in his nano contest tank. It won't work in the sump because there will only be about 3-5 gallons of water in with the pump.

~ I can use a 2-way to create a wavebox sort of action I'm hoping. This way I can get away with probably just using one VorTech (later on down the road when I feel rich again), or maybe I will be happy just using a couple Koralia 4's or some such thing.

So...any input on how many gph I should run my closed loop? Remember I keep LPS only, although I will add a few SPS to the 90 (I think). Pump recommendations?

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Original Thread:

I am busy plumbing my 40g tank. Being that it is small, I want to eliminate as many power heads as possible for as clean a look as possible. So I'm probably going to incorporate a closed loop. I'm thinkin just a basic one (mostly because I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to plumbing anything other than basics). Ideally I would like to eliminate all power heads if possible.

The tank is already drilled in the upper two back corners for in/out to the sump. I'm thinkin to drill the back pane for the closed loop. I have two pumps Poseidon 3 (700 gph at 4' head, 800gph at 0' head), and a Little Giant 2-MD (a little over 400 gph at 4' head). Should I split the outflow on the PS3 or use the LG for the closed loop? I don't want more than 400 gph through the sump, but would prefer 300-325 gph. I have my own drill bits, so I can drill holes to my heart's content, so feel free to suggest any number of bulkheads. Please suggest pipe and bulkhead sizes too. :)

I'm thinkin use the LG for the sump, and the PS3 for the closed loop? How many bulkheads could come off there and have decent flow? I plan to use Loc-Line with nozzles on the ends.

Any ideas or suggestions given what I have for equipment, and how to do it? What would you do?

Keep in mind this is for LPS, not SPS, so flow has to be reasonable! Can't be blowin the flesh off my corals now! :D

[mseepman]

Myka, given how nice your current corals look, I trhink a good question would be what powerheads you currently use and how much turnover you have now. Repeating that would be what I aim for.

My guess is that you have more than these two can provide and in the end you will either have to up-size the pumps or still use one powerhead.

[Myka]

I have a lot of detritus settling in my tank. I just have a MJ1200 and a Koralia 2 in there now, and it's a mess. No maintenance since Christmas doesn't help though!! :eek: I'm gonna add a second MJ1200 here as soon as it's done mixing up my salt buckets.

[JDigital]

I'd run the PS3 as your CL pump... drill a 1 or 1.5" hole in the center of the back of the tank, then run whatever size pipe comes off the CL pump all the way back to your returns, which I would make 2 x 3/4", but don't reduce until back at the tank.

I guess it's your choice whether you want to drill for the CL returns, or just run them over the edge of the tank. Then again if its not tempered you could drill those 2 returns through the floor of the tank. I find it really helps in my 75G to suspend detritus as it is an upward flow.

[Canadian]

I'd go with a Vortech MP40 instead of the closed loop. It won't take up much space, won't add any heat, and uses way less hydro.

[golf nut]

running a closed loop will get the crap off the bottom and into the water column, then if you need some mre flow add the vortech to change things up a bit.

[Myka]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'm not looking into putting $500 into a Vortech anytime soon. I want to work with what I have. I have lots of powerheads I can use if need be. *grumble*

How many 1/2" outputs do you think I could put on the CL with the PS3 and still have decent flow (like MJ1200 type flow minimum) coming through them? Just 1? 2? 3?

JDigital, the PS3 has 3/4" fittings on it...so do you mean I should run 3/4" piping all the way to the 3/4" bulkheads then reduce it and run 1/2" Loc-Line?

[golf nut]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'm not looking into putting $500 into a Vortech anytime soon. I want to work with what I have. I have lots of powerheads I can use if need be. *grumble*

How many 1/2" outputs do you think I could put on the CL with the PS3 and still have decent flow (like MJ1200 type flow minimum) coming through them? Just 1? 2? 3?

JDigital, the PS3 has 3/4" fittings on it...so do you mean I should run 3/4" piping all the way to the 3/4" bulkheads then reduce it and run 1/2" Loc-Line?

Depends on the outlet of the pump you use, if it's 3/4 then you can run two 1/2 outlets

[Myka]

I think what I will do is rig something up to the PS3 to give me 3 outlets, put it in a bucket, and see how much flow is coming out. I'm worried that I may put too many outlets on it, and make the closed loop a moot point.

[sphelps]

I'd skip the closed loop and just go with 400-500gph through the sump, a 10x turnover is more than enough for lps. That closed loop will only complicate things and give little benefit. Keep it simple stupid :mrgreen:

[JDigital]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'm not looking into putting $500 into a Vortech anytime soon. I want to work with what I have. I have lots of powerheads I can use if need be. *grumble*

How many 1/2" outputs do you think I could put on the CL with the PS3 and still have decent flow (like MJ1200 type flow minimum) coming through them? Just 1? 2? 3?

JDigital, the PS3 has 3/4" fittings on it...so do you mean I should run 3/4" piping all the way to the 3/4" bulkheads then reduce it and run 1/2" Loc-Line?

Yea, that would probably work.. or use a 3/4" Y splitter locline to 2x 1/2" locline jets. You might loose to much head splitting a 3/4" line between 2 3/4" bulkheads. I'd run it to 1 bulkhead and use the Y splitter inside the tank.

[mike31154]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'm not looking into putting $500 into a Vortech anytime soon. I want to work with what I have. I have lots of powerheads I can use if need be. *grumble*

How many 1/2" outputs do you think I could put on the CL with the PS3 and still have decent flow (like MJ1200 type flow minimum) coming through them? Just 1? 2? 3?

JDigital, the PS3 has 3/4" fittings on it...so do you mean I should run 3/4" piping all the way to the 3/4" bulkheads then reduce it and run 1/2" Loc-Line?

Closed loop does seem overly complex for a tank that size. Just my opinion, since I know little about closed loops either. But I've read that they can be power hogs and seems like there's plenty that can go wrong with more holes drilled, connections etc. Clean looking tank yes, but a nightmare outside the tank. Anyhow, I swear by my VorTech MP40W. Yes, very expensive. You might be able to get away with an MP20 which costs less and may be upgraded to 40W later if you wish. Spread the cost over time that way as well. No electrical cord in the tank and the wet side has a low profile, just under 3 inches.

[mark]

probably not worth getting a OM device but lots of photos in their WaterPix (http://www.oceansmotions.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=fa5bcb23ce365ef450b987643eced6c2) forum for layout ideas.

[Myka]

Thanks for the link mark!! Lots of great threads in there! :)

I know putting a closed loop on a tank this small seems silly to you big boys, ;) but I haven't done it before, and I want to try it out. I don't want a bigger tank. This is a good size for me.

I will think about the VorTech. I have a few items I could sell that could really knock the price down. I've already been thinking about selling my Bangaii pair... :eek:

[fkshiu]

You could try a variation of melev's 29 gallon closed loop.

http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html

[Myka]

You could try a variation of melev's 29 gallon closed loop.

http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html

Ya, that's kinda what I had in mind, but drill the tank instead. I was tossing around the idea of a SCWD as he did. Melev used a Mag 7 which has the same flow as my Poseidon 3. If you watch the little video he has where you can see the flow, there is actually quite a lot of flow. I think too much for many of my LPS, so I think if I used the PS3 for my sump pump, and took the excess flow into a SCWD that would work well because the SCWD will put all the flow through only one pipe at a time. If all else fails I can always adjust and incorporate the Little Giant.

Maybe I will do both...closed loop and VorTech...? I would rather use the Poseidon as my sump pump than the Little Giant, and I have to do something with the extra flow. The MP20s are only $350, and appear to have plenty of juice for my application. I didn't realise there were two sizes.

I'm tired of chasing the detritus around my tank with a billion powerheads... :|

[JDigital]

The MP20's aren't too badly priced, and would be PLENTY of flow to keep detritus suspended.. I think.

[Myka]

The MP20's aren't too badly priced, and would be PLENTY of flow to keep detritus suspended.. I think.

I'm just worried that it won't get all the corners of the tank because it's all coming from one source. Essentially it's just a powerhead on a wavemaker.

[golf nut]

Vortechs do a great job higher in the tank, they suck and blow from the same location so it's tough to get them low without sucking in sand, and you need to get low to get the crap off the bottom.

[Myka]

Upon thinking further...I think I will do a similar idea to Melev's in that I won't drill the tank for the closed loop just in case I don't like it or if it creates too much heat.

Is it true that I have to use piping that is twice the diameter of the fittings on the pump? That I should use 1 1/2" piping for the PS3 which has 3/4" fittings?

[brizzo]

Upon thinking further...I think I will do a similar idea to Melev's in that I won't drill the tank for the closed loop just in case I don't like it or if it creates too much heat.

Is it true that I have to use piping that is twice the diameter of the fittings on the pump? That I should use 1 1/2" piping for the PS3 which has 3/4" fittings?

I'd use 1" personally.

[Okguy]

Hey Myka, one thing to consider is the heat generated by the PS3. I have one as a return pump, I love it by the way as it's supper quiet, but it does create a large amount of heat. I'm pretty sure my heater hasn't come on in 3 years. Even in the winter I'm constantly battleing over-heating issues.

Have you considered a spray bar to eliminate the deadspots? A little old school I know but I put one in awhile back when I was on a DIY kick and I've been very happy with it. If setup right it can be hidden quite well... Just my 2 cents...

Mark told me your leaving for Saskatchewan :cry:... When are you going?

[sphelps]

I still don't get it, I have a 50 gallon tank with a single 1/2" return pushing around 300-400gph and all my LPS and soft corals have done very well. Recently put 6 clams in there as well which are all doing just fine. Tanks been running for almost 3 years which no problems. You're still going to get dead spots with a closed loop, but dead spots aren't going to kill your reef. LPS corals don't like lots of flow, you're going to do more harm and good. Plus extra heat, noise, potential leaks, clutter, maintenance, and less space in the stand.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/FTS/lower1_06_2008.jpg

[banditpowdercoat]

Myka, in my 45g, I built a closed loop and hid the pump inside the overflow. That way, no external drilling was required. My CL pump is a Pentair Quietone 3000. It works great that way. I made a PVC pipe "ring" around the top of the tank for the Loc-Line nozzles. But, I needed more flow. I too had alot of detritus settling. Added a Koralia 2 and all is great now. So, in my 45g I have a Mag 3.5 Sump return, Quietone 3000 Closed loop and K2 powerhead.

[Myka]

Hey Myka, one thing to consider is the heat generated by the PS3.

Mark told me your leaving for Saskatchewan :cry:... When are you going?

I am very worried about the heat created by the PS3. I have heard they are horrible for that. The tank is also going to have 2x 250w MH over it and 2 x39w T5s for actinics. I'm worried about the lighting being a bit too intense for my LPS, but they are mogul run on electronic ballasts so shouldn't have too high of a PAR reading and if all else fails I can pick bulbs with lower PAR rating, just a waste of electricity.

I'm not sure what to do about the tank...I would really like to try out a closed loop. I know the Little Giant pump I have isn't supposed to leak much heat at all because of it's bypass type design. Maybe I should sell the PS3, and buy a more appropriate pump for my tank. I originally bought the PS3 for my 75g return, but plans have changed for that tank.

Yes, I'm moving to Saskatoon next Friday. =] I will have to come back for the tanks though.

[mseepman]

Whatcha gonna do with the 75???

[Myka]

Whatcha gonna do with the 75???

Well I found a nice canopy for my 40g, so I will stick to keeping that one for my reef, otherwise I was thisclose to setting up the 75g for my reef. So I'm gonna put plants and Dwarf Cichlids in the 75g I think.

[Myka]

Ok, so I sold the 40 and the 75 in BC, and bought a 90 out here in Saskatchewan. So, I'm thinking I will do a small 2-way closed loop on this tank for three reasons:

~ So I can hopefully eliminate most if not all powerheads.

~ T the pump outlet for an easy water change system like superduperwesman did in his nano contest tank. It won't work in the sump because there will only be about 3-5 gallons of water in with the pump. Will a ball valve seal well enough to have no leaks on the bare end when not doing a water change?

~ To get random flow/waves. So I can get away with probably just using one VorTech (later on down the road when I feel rich again) and not have to use two to get a wave action, or maybe I will be happy just using a couple Koralia 4's or some such thing.

So...any input on how many gph I should run my closed loop? Remember I keep LPS only, although I will add a few SPS to the 90 (I think). Pump recommendations? The OM 2-way wants to use a bypass unit if more than 1000 gph is going through it, which from my understanding pretty much defeats the purpose of using a pump with more than 1000 gph. Or should I use a SCWD which will deplete the gph by about 30%?

[hillegom]

myka: I was thinking of buying a SCWD You say that it takes 30% of the total gph?
Thats not very good.

[Quinster]

The OM 2-way wants to use a bypass unit if more than 1000 gph is going through it, which from my understanding pretty much defeats the purpose of using a pump with more than 1000 gph. Or should I use a SCWD which will deplete the gph by about 30%?


I have used both the OM products and SCWD, and I would not hesitate spending a little more on the OM product, and the bypass can be used for feeding a refugium, reactors, etc.

[Myka]

The bypass doesn't have a steady stream though does it? Any idea what kind of gph I should be looking at?

hillegom...that is what I have heard about the SCWDs. Not sure how accurate it is though.

[banditpowdercoat]

from what I understand, you put the Bypass before the OM and divert the excess flow so the OM only seed the 1000 GPH

[Myka]

from what I understand, you put the Bypass before the OM and divert the excess flow so the OM only seed the 1000 GPH

Ohhhhh, well that would defeat the purpose of having a pump over 1000 gph in my case then since I need to steal some flow from my sump pump for the fuge since it's a bit overpowered.

[sphelps]

For OMs I didn't find the smaller version to work that well. The drum was magnetically driven and as a result would get stuck often from something as simple as couple grains of sand. It required frequent cleaning to keep it operational. Now the larger 4 way has a direct shaft driven drum which seems to keep going no matter what. For these reasons I would personally only go with a shaft driven OM, not magnetic.

[Quinster]

For OMs I didn't find the smaller version to work that well. The drum was magnetically driven and as a result would get stuck often from something as simple as couple grains of sand. It required frequent cleaning to keep it operational.

SCWD's are just as bad...if not worse. At least the OM products can be disassembled to clean, only the 1" SCWD can be.

[banditpowdercoat]

All OM's are mag drive now I belive

[Quinster]

All OM's are mag drive now I belive


The 4 Ways are optional

From the OM site

Note: Mag Drive Upgrade - This option is for customers who already have an original version 4 Way and wish to upgrade to the new magnetically driven version.

[banditpowdercoat]

The original ones were Shaft. If you buy one now, It's Mag. Thats why it says Original OM-4 owners upgrade.

[sphelps]

The original ones were Shaft. If you buy one now, It's Mag. Thats why it says Original OM-4 owners upgrade.
Well that's a shame, it was a really good product but I wouldn't do the magnetic.

[golf nut]

They have been magnetic for the last 5 years.

[sphelps]

They have been magnetic for the last 5 years.
I installed a 4 way last fall which was purchased new at the time and it was shaft driven.

[golf nut]

I installed a 4 way last fall which was purchased new at the time and it was shaft driven.
Shaft driven magnetically coupled , yes since 2004.

[golf nut]

http://www.oceansmotions.com/mag4new1.jpg

[sphelps]

yeah, that looks right, sorry my bad. The smaller version doesn't disassemble the same way so you don't see the shaft attachment, I was assuming that was what was meant by shaft driven. So does the smaller version use weaker magnets?

[golf nut]

Proportionally yes, they use different strength magnets and flux collectors, not to be confused with flux capacitors:)

[Myka]

So when you say smaller version do you mean the 1000 gph or less Squirt is the smaller one? And the up to 2500 gph Super Squirt is the larger one? And the 1000 gph one doesn't work as well?

[sphelps]

I've never used the "super squirt" but the smaller version I was referring to was the "OM squirt". It worked well and is a good product but I personally found it to require too much maintenance to keep it working, especially when it's connected to a closed loop under a tank when space is limited.

The larger version I was referring to is the "OM 4 way". It's a little more money but a stronger unit that requires a fraction of the maintenance. So for me well worth the extra money, even if used at a lower flow rate.

[Myka]

Ah ok. Thanks!