Alfredshouse is gone.....

[alfredshouse]

I woke up this morning to find all my fish dead. Shrimps dead. Urchin dead. All the fish I just bought dead. Alfred, my favourite Yellow Tang dead. Starting testing my water and found my nitrate had a huge spike in it. I blame this on my FX5, I should of had a sump, which Im building right now. Im devastated. Please dont tell me what a moron I am, Ive already figured this out. Im hoping all my corals dont die. can I change my screen name to nobodyshouse?

I lost:

Yellow tang
Clown Tang
Other Tang
2 fire shrimp
2 cleaner shrimp
3 damsels
Foxface
Cleaner Wrasse
Mosiac Wrasse
Lemon Wrasse
2 Dartfish
2 Gudgeon
Spiny Urchin
Mated pair Blue Line Cinnamon Clowns
other Gobies and various other creatures:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

[Chowder]

Really sorry to here.

[Leah]

Oh no, not good. Sorry to hear that.

[belzebuth]

Alfred was her Yellow Tang... We found him dead this morning:sad:

[dkcrx]

So sad! :cry:

[mseepman]

So sorry to hear. Although I think the overwhelming majority of people would prefer a sump, there are some pretty nice little systems out there running on FX5's so I hope you don't blame yourself too much.

[castaway]

Sorry to hear of your losses.
I've had my share as have most others.

[Abbyreefer]

I'm soo sorry to hear. Anything I can do to help, let me know.

[alfredshouse]

thank you all for your kind words, I could really use them right now. I dont think anyone can do anything for me. However, if anyone has a pump, skimmer or a overflow for sale please let me know. Thanks

[Lance]

Sad to hear this.

[tang daddy]

I'm sorry to hear this,

I was wondering tho if there was something that could've taken your fish and inverts all in one night?

The nitrates could've been high and even climbing but isn't it alittle suspicious that everything dropped dead overnight did you add any new live rock to your tank or perhaps changed water?

[hockey nut]

Sorry to hear about your loss. :(

[mark]

Sorry to hear.

I wouldn't blame solely on not having a sump, as having a sump isn't a guarantee of being problem free.

[hillegom]

Sorry to hear of your loss.
Very suspicious. High nitrates, and your corals are ok? Would not your coarls die before the fish. I hope they do not, but why all the fish?

[fkshiu]

Exactly how high were your nitrates? Fish can and will survive in much higher levels of nitrates than corals can and nitrates don't usually cause sudden mass deaths.

Secondly, how exactly do you think the FX5 caused the spike?

The most common cause of "death by filter" is if it was left off for a long time which caused everything in there to die. Within the sealed confines of a canister filter like the FX5 you would have had a lot of hydrogen sulfide gas build-up. As a result, when you turn the filter back on, all the nasty H2SO3 will literally cause a monstrous fart from hell which gases everything dead in the tank. Do you detect any rotten egg smells?

Not trying to cross-examine you here, just wondering perhaps there might have been another cause.

[o.c.d.]

Really sad to hear.I was going to say the same thing as Fkshiu. Did you make sure that your heater isn't faulty or stray voltage. and when you measured Nitrate not Nitrite. I really not trying to insult you this is tragic but you should really be sure what caused it so it never happens again and other can be taught your hard lesson.

[alfredshouse]

Nitrate was at 20( maybe from the dead fish????)!!!
Nitrite was at 0.25
Ammonia was at 0.0
SG was at 1.025
PH was at 7.6 which is really weird, I was thinking it was a faulty test, but second test kit confirms it is correct
Temperature 76.7

On Tang Daddys suggestion we tested KH and its 200mg/l!!!!!!
We are now doing another water change, we did 1/3 this morning.
If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate them. Just dont call me an idiot, Ive already cried enough today. Thanks:cry::cry::cry:

[andestang]

Exactly how high were your nitrates? Fish can and will survive in much higher levels of nitrates than corals can and nitrates don't usually cause sudden mass deaths.

Secondly, how exactly do you think the FX5 caused the spike?

The most common cause of "death by filter" is if it was left off for a long time which caused everything in there to die. Within the sealed confines of a canister filter like the FX5 you would have had a lot of hydrogen sulfide gas build-up. As a result, when you turn the filter back on, all the nasty H2SO3 will literally cause a monstrous fart from hell which gases everything dead in the tank. Do you detect any rotten egg smells?

Not trying to cross-examine you here, just wondering perhaps there might have been another cause.

This is all true, I have a FX5 that I run on my Koi tank during the winter. I find it gets restricted fairly easily especially if your using the water polishing pads. It pretty much quits running and needs to be disconnected and totally cleaned out (the smell will knock your socks off) If you don't your headed for trouble. You really have to pay attention to the output for any reduced flow. Really sorry about all your fish, the bad side to the hobby.

[subman]

The Nitrate spike could just be from all the dead fish. Anything new added latley?

[alfredshouse]

Yes, I did add some stuff this weekend

Bubble Tip Anemone
Zoas
Green Mushroom
2 Dartfish
2 Gudgeon
1 Cleaner Wrasse
Pair of Cinnamon Clowns
2 Tangs


this is a 160gl that has been up for 14 months:cry::cry:

[fkshiu]

That's a lot of livestock to add at once. The presence of nitrite indicates a cycle has occurred meaning that it could have been ammonia.

I'd still crack the FX5 open and give it a sniff.

[subman]

still just very odd to lose all the fish overnight and the corals are still alive. some more investigation is needed i think.

[alfredshouse]

The ammonia was at 0.0
Nitrate was at .8
I know it was alot of fish at once, but there were only 3 in there and I didnt expect them all to die.
I opened the FX5 and it didnt stink like rotten eggs, Checked it two weeks ago.
I did another water change tonight, I changed 50% and the KH is still high, its at 140, with a safe range of 100-125,

Im going to take my water to AA tommorow and get them to test it.:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

[subman]

this may be a stupid question but whats the temp? Any chance of a heater malfunction?

[alfredshouse]

Tested for voltage in the water, none was found
Did a water change on Saturday.
Please give more suggestions, Thanks

[mark]

how long has the tank been up?

[alfredshouse]

Temperature is/was at 79.6 and its been up since Feb/08.

[alfredshouse]

tested the inliner heater and digital thermometer and they are working. I put another Koralia in this weekend, thought that might of electricuted everything, but nope thats not it either.

[Black Phantom]

Your water parameters seem to be fine. At least not to the point that it would kill everything overnight. It almost sounds like you might have had a CO2 build up. Using a cannister doesn't agitate the surface so this might have been the cause.
Just trying to help narrow down the possibilities.

[Jack]

You keep saying Nitrate - which is not really toxic to fish.

If you say Nitrate (No3) being 0.8 - I think you mean Nitrite (No2) - which is very toxic.

Sorry about your loss.

It was just too many fish added at once.

Bummer.

[Myka]

Yes, I did add some stuff this weekend

Bubble Tip Anemone
Zoas
Green Mushroom
2 Dartfish
2 Gudgeon
1 Cleaner Wrasse
Pair of Cinnamon Clowns
2 Tangs


this is a 160gl that has been up for 14 months:cry::cry:

How big were the Tangs? How many fish were in the tank prior to adding these ones? How quickly did this crash happen after adding these new fish?

[fishoholic]

So sorry to hear about your losses :sad:

I have had a lot higher nitrates then 20 before in my tank, did some water changes right away once I realized, and luckily I didn't loose anything. The nitrates probably spiked after the fish died, doesn't seem likely to be the cause of death IMO.

[naesco]

Yes, I did add some stuff this weekend

Bubble Tip Anemone
Zoas
Green Mushroom
2 Dartfish
2 Gudgeon
1 Cleaner Wrasse
Pair of Cinnamon Clowns
2 Tangs


this is a 160gl that has been up for 14 months:cry::cry:

Did you add all these fish at the same time? A sudden death like you describe is likely caused by oxygen starvation. Do you have power heads operating near the surface of your water to allow for oxygen exchange?

[Myka]

^ Ya he did. Although that is a significant amount of fish to add at once, the tank is 160 gallons. I don't think that adding all the fish at once would be the only reason for the crash, although it may have been a significant attributing factor to a snowball effect.

[RuGlu6]

sorry to hear,
did you have a black cucumber?
same thing happened to me long time ago when black cucumber died.
whiped the whole tank out.
Re overflow i have CPR-90 replica brand new newer used for $50

[fkshiu]

You keep saying Nitrate - which is not really toxic to fish.

If you say Nitrate (No3) being 0.8 - I think you mean Nitrite (No2) - which is very toxic.

Sorry about your loss.

It was just too many fish added at once.

Bummer.

Actually, nitrITE in marine aquaria is relatively NON-toxic to fish:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php#5

What is concerning is the presence of nitrITE in the water at all which almost always means that ammonia (which is very toxic) was there previously. There should be zero nitrITE in a tank more than a year old unless there was a mini-cycle - possibly brought upon by the addition of so many fish at once.

I believe that the oxygen deprivation theory may be correct especially if the FX5 was the only form of circulation: Lots of fish are added to a tank with poor circulation. This causes the death of the weakest fish which in turn causes a mini-cycle which kills off the rest. When you finally do the testing the cycle is at the stage where's there's a little nitrITE left and rising nitrATES.

Your Alk reading is actually normal.

[Myka]

^ I think fkshiu is on the right track. I don't think it was a single issue that caused the death of all the fish, but in the end I do believe the primary cause was adding too many fish at once...then the resulting lack of oxygen and (likely) ammonia, and who knows what else may have also played a factor.

[Nate]

I would be willing to place a large bet on low oxygen levels. Buildup of protein on the surface...usually happens when someone is not using a sump, and an inadequate hang on skimmer (i dont know what skimmer you have/had), and little to no powerheads pointed up at the surface. Did you have a slimy coating on the surface of your aquarium?

Nate

However this is not caused directly by the adding of fish, it would happen eventually if you just had 1 fish. But the adding of new fish increased your need for available oxygen, with that, the new fish are stressed and their oxygen uptake is thus increased, and in the end it comes to a point where no one can breathe and they die. Good thing is your corals should be fine, I have seen them handle this no problem

[my2rotties]

I'm so sorry about your losses. This really sucks to hear about it. However you will learn from it, and be a better hobbyist after the shock is over. I agree with the posts about oxygen starvation and would look into that. When I first started out I inherited a tank with fish when I bought this house. It had a Ehiem filter and it stopped pumping one night and killed most of my fish. We still have no clue why it shut down since it was clean inside.

So sorry about Alfred.

[dkcrx]

What kind of skimmer? and most important, did you spray or use any chemical cleaners in your home? even smoke? theskimmer can inject the residuals from the air into your water cusing just what you have experienced including your PH drop. And at 7.6 that alone can kill off everything.

[Jack]

Actually, nitrITE in marine aquaria is relatively NON-toxic to fish:

Nitrite is toxic.

[Purple]

So sorry to hear this! :cry:

[alfredshouse]

I went to AA today and Dan and Nicky were a huge help.

Test results were

Salinity 1.024
PH 7.6 / 7.8
KH 11
Calcium 440
Am 0.0
Nitrite .5
Nitrate 15

O2 wait for it







0 ZERO Zilch Nada Nothing

[digital-audiophile]

So dissolved oxygen was 0 mg/L? Am I reading that correct?

[banditpowdercoat]

how the heck can disolved O2 be 0? Should so something, I mean a little water is allways in contact with the air, even with pumps off

[Myka]

Putting tank water into a container, travelling with it for a time, then testing it later on is absolutely not an accurate measurement of your tank's dissolved oxygen level. You have to take your tank water out, and test it within a few minutes of removing it from the tank in order to get an accurate test as shaking the water a bit will increase the dissolved oxygen content, and letting it sit will lower the dissolved oxygen content, even in a sealed container. Don't consider that test your be all end all, it has very little bearing. I am surprised the employees at AA didn't know that or failed to express it to you. It's kind of silly they would even test customer's O2 levels from the store since their readings would never be accurate.

[Tangman]

Just a little surprised That after all the water changes you did after the crash, that your O2 levels would still be so low...I went to AA today and Dan and Nicky were a huge help.

Test results were

Salinity 1.024
PH 7.6 / 7.8
KH 11
Calcium 440
Am 0.0
Nitrite .5
Nitrate 15

O2 wait for it







0 ZERO Zilch Nada Nothing

[Tangman]

I agree with Myka, and that is probably why your test sample read 0 for O2 at the store after all the water changes.

But after thinking about it last night I agree that the cause of the crash was oxygen starvation

[belzebuth]

Actually Dan and Nicky suggested the O2 could be depleted. She purchased a test kit, went home,tested the water.....VOILA !!!!

O2 = 0.00

Opened the lid ( tank has glass lids)
Added a couple of airstones and powerhead
Moved the Korallias towards the surface

Within 1 hours O2 started to climb. The corals are looking better but PH is still low 7.6 but is expected to climb up.

Husband currently in her carport building sump, not allowed in the house until done:biggrin:

She also purchased a CPR overflow since tank is not drilled.

[Tangman]

I (and I'm sure others as well ) didn't know that there are glass lids on this tank, The lids as well as no surface skimming due to the canister filter is why there is no oxygen exchange at the water surface..... THE Glass lids have to go !
The PH will rise as the O2 levels go up and the CO2 levels go down ( CO2 drives PH down, same principle as a calcium reactor)

[Myka]

Actually Dan and Nicky suggested the O2 could be depleted. She purchased a test kit, went home,tested the water.....VOILA !!!!

O2 = 0.00

Opened the lid ( tank has glass lids)
Added a couple of airstones and powerhead
Moved the Korallias towards the surface

Within 1 hours O2 started to climb. The corals are looking better but PH is still low 7.6 but is expected to climb up.

Husband currently in her carport building sump, not allowed in the house until done:biggrin:

She also purchased a CPR overflow since tank is not drilled.

The plot thickens...!! :eek:

Wow...ya if I'm the jury, the jury is in, and the guilty part is oxygen starvation for sure! The glass lids wouldn't be a problem if you ran a skimmer, but from what I understand you don't have a skimmer, right? Then the powerheads not giving any surface agitation...poor combination.

pH is low because of elevated levels of CO2 in the water due to not being able to off-gas, and not enough O2 being injected into the tank. Simply adding an airstone will often increase pH. For more information on this subject read the pH heading in my guide on reef chemistry in my signature.

[alfredshouse]

Yah, i have really learned alot in the past two days. I no longer have lids and and my sump is being built as we speak. I am really grateful to everyone that tried to help, especially Belezuth, who spent hours helping me change water and do repeat testing. And another thank you to AA who spent alot of time troubleshooting and determining to cause. Thank you all again. Right now my tanks are being aerated and closely monitored, they have white board marker test results all over them.:biggrin:

[Myka]

You can put your lids back on once you get a skimmer. I have had lids on some of my tanks (with skimmers) with no troubles. Help keep evaporation down as you already know. Now that you have an O2 kit, you can always test just to make sure! ;)

Expensive lesson to learn, but you can scratch that one off the list on newbie mistakes now. :D

[subman]

an absolute tragedy, but I learned a ton just by tagging along. I am truly sorry for your losses but thanks for sharing it with us.

[rocketlily]

I also am very sorry for the losses you have ocurred but I want to thank you for sharing it with us so that we all can learn a little more about this hobby.

[es355lucille]

Really sorry for your losses. Much more gained by the rest of us tagging along on this thread. I have learned a great deal from this incident.

Good luck with getting back up....I hope the rest of your tanks inhabitants make it.

Brad

[alfredshouse]

SG 1.024
PH 7.8
NO2 0
NO3 20
O2 5+

This is from opening the lids, adding two bubble wands, pointing the koralia 4 toward the surface and other koralia lower, still have the FX5 going, and sump will be finished thursday. I expect the parameters to just get better now. I will test my tanks for O2 levels from now on and never make this mistake again! Just other mistakes!!! I have to have a sense of humor after all this.:redface::redface::redface::redface::redface: :biggrin::redface::redface::redface:

[reef bound]

Your poor hubby stuck in the carport till Thursday :( hehe. Sorry for your losses. But always a learning experience for ourselves and others.

[fkshiu]

You don't need the bubble wands. They'll only cause unwanted salt creep.

[Black Phantom]

Ahem - not wanting to blow my own horn but I think I mentioned a CO2 buildup a few pages ago :lol:

Just glad to hear you've tracked it down

[alfredshouse]

You were absolutely correct in you trouble shooting. Thank you !!!!!!!! Your help is much appreciated. I am only using bubble wands for now until the O2 level corrects its self. It does seem to help. Any other thoughts are appreciated!!!!!

[Black Phantom]

You were absolutely correct in you trouble shooting. Thank you !!!!!!!! Your help is much appreciated. I am only using bubble wands for now until the O2 level corrects its self. It does seem to help. Any other thoughts are appreciated!!!!!


LOL - I guess that comes from 28 years in the fire service and dealing with toxic atmospheres. Makes me think on different lines.
Hopefully things are improving.