Prazipro reef safe?

[my2rotties]

Does any one have any info on the medication? Any deaths of corals and inverts? Any one have any experience with it and treating a display tank for flukes?

Thanks in advance.

[Leah]

Do you think you have flukes?

[my2rotties]

From research due to my angel deaths I am thinking it might be the cause of death. I have the fish in the freezer and will thaw them out and dip them in freshwater there is a thread on reefcentral about this very thing...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1260067

If indeed this is my issue I need to do something NOW!!! I have one queen angel and cannot catch him to treat him or any of my other fish for that matter. I need to be proactive to ensure I do not have a big disaster on my hands...

I just don't need another disaster from trying to fix one as well. I will get through this but I am feeling a little panicked at the moment.

Should I thaw the dead fish prior to dipping or do I dip them in freshwater to thaw them.

[christyf5]

Um, why are you dipping dead fish?

[my2rotties]

To see if flukes fall off of them like they talked about on reefcentral

Um, why are you dipping dead fish?

[Mrfish55]

If I'm not mistaken the key ingredient in Prazi-pro is Praziquantel which is also an ingredient in the heartworm medication used to treat corals for red bugs, I am unsure of the other ingredients in prazi-pro (you would have to research that) but it should be safe to use, remove any decorative shrimps and crabs as it will kill those as well (and your pod population) Don't forget to remove any carbon and shut off air supply to skimmer, leave everything else running as normal so you can make sure everything gets medicated. Good luck.

[christyf5]

To see if flukes fall off of them like they talked about on reefcentral

likely the flukes are already gone. they're pretty delicate and I would imagine freezing and thawing might be a bit rough on them. I guess its worth a try though.

[Delphinus]

Be wary of overreacting. I'm very sorry about the angels but treating a main tank is a recipe for disaster. I don't mean to sound cruel here, but listen to yourself: is a medication intended to kill off flukes reef-safe? By very definition, it is not. The whole idea of a medication is you're trying to poison your tank to the point that the "baddies" drop off while hopefully leaving enough "goodies" leftover to repopulate.

My suggestion is that if you do not 100% unequivocally know for certain that you have flukes in your system, that you do not nuke your tank with any medication.

On the flip side, if you have enough evidence to suggest that other fish may be affected, the wiser course of action is still to catch those fish and treat them separately in a hospital tank. Running your main display fallow of hosts will go far further than any medication.

Be very careful about overreactions in this hobby, it's very easy to overcompensate or overcorrect and then you're facing a worse situation and one of your own making. Please be careful.

[my2rotties]

It is indeed flukes... I added water to the Ziplock bags and see thousands of them floating in the water around the fish.

From the big thread I posted a link to, the Prazipro appears to be reef safe. Still doing research on it now. I hope I can find the meds today and I have to figure out what to do with everything now.

Taking a nice hike to avoid a panic attack and will be calling all the LFS while I'm doing that. At least I have answers now since nothing else made sense. Reefcentral people say it is a mystery killer and the thread I posted a link to has been more then helpful

I want to thank all the members of canreef for bringing up the flukes to help me pinpoint something. I owe you guys and thanks again...

[my2rotties]

I won't be doing anything until I do my homework for awhile. I have been trying to catch my Queen angel since he is showing signs of sickness. Not having very much luck with that at this point...

Be wary of overreacting. I'm very sorry about the angels but treating a main tank is a recipe for disaster. I don't mean to sound cruel here, but listen to yourself: is a medication intended to kill off flukes reef-safe? By very definition, it is not. The whole idea of a medication is you're trying to poison your tank to the point that the "baddies" drop off while hopefully leaving enough "goodies" leftover to repopulate.

My suggestion is that if you do not 100% unequivocally know for certain that you have flukes in your system, that you do not nuke your tank with any medication.

On the flip side, if you have enough evidence to suggest that other fish may be affected, the wiser course of action is still to catch those fish and treat them separately in a hospital tank. Running your main display fallow of hosts will go far further than any medication.

Be very careful about overreactions in this hobby, it's very easy to overcompensate or overcorrect and then you're facing a worse situation and one of your own making. Please be careful.

[Pan]

It is indeed flukes... I added water to the Ziplock bags and see thousands of them floating in the water around the fish.

From the big thread I posted a link to, the Prazipro appears to be reef safe. Still doing research on it now. I hope I can find the meds today and I have to figure out what to do with everything now.

Taking a nice hike to avoid a panic attack and will be calling all the LFS while I'm doing that. At least I have answers now since nothing else made sense. Reefcentral people say it is a mystery killer and the thread I posted a link to has been more then helpful

I want to thank all the members of canreef for bringing up the flukes to help me pinpoint something. I owe you guys and thanks again...


To be as delicate as I can. Adding...I repeat adding any medication to a tank is a recipe for disaster. A few people have success (luck..it really is) Most people who have been doing this hobby long enough IF they have to treat their fish they do it in another tank. Adding medications to an established reef tank is not good.
1. medications (some) kill bacteria...ALL bacteria.
2. Medications kill parasites on fish (kill ALL parasites...yes even copepods)
3. Medications kill fungal infections...(most will also kill inverts, corals etc..)

There is a very specific reason people with well established tanks and a long history in this hobby (most of the bigger tanks on rc..as big tanks need more forward thinking than a small tank..the potential for losses in a big well established tank are greater) use 2 things.

1. Quarantine tank
2. Patience (for reasons other than one would think)

Quarantine tank - MARINE and ORNAMENTAL TROPICAL fish go through a myriad of shippers and wholesalers systems all different and all contaminated (treated, but usually there is something) this single fact should deter anyone from putting a fish directly in their system without observation at home. Most people have small quarantine tanks...you quarantine a tang you need a tank that will suffice. Quarantine is to medicate and to observe WITHOUT inducing stress if it can be helped. Putting a tang or a big angel or any fish that needs a 180 or more in a tank that is 40-50 gallons, well you get what you deserve i think (this is not directed at anyone in particular just everyone in particular :mrgreen: ) Once a disease is in the main tank you run into a myriad of troubles that usually results in a few losses at best and a crash at worst.

Specific in your case - research all you wish on medications but you will find big tanks that are well established (ie years and years) these people know what they are doing and DO NOT risk medicating a main tank(unless threatened with a total tank loss, and by then some do indeed panic...but not many) There simply is no medication you can put in your main tank that will not harm it in some way...if it doesn't it is a placebo and you just got ripped off.

2. Patience, as people have most assuredly told you rushing to stock a tank is a recipe for disaster. Both because the system is not ready for it....lots of live rock does not mean lots of bacteria...bacteria grows as the demand for it is increased. As ammonia is introduced to the tank eventually the bacteria we need is created..slowly. then the system is ready for the bio load it is at. Then another fish is introduced, more ammonia, then more bacteria, then bio load the tank can handle at that moment...see the pattern here? Also patience is required in order to OBSERVE fish....many many fish come to us that are sick (parasite, fungus, bacteria, cyanide) the only what to find out is to observe (hence the quarantine tank(s) ). When one rushes this process they inevitably loose fish...either blaming the store(s), themselves or a combination. A lot of people new to this hobby get discouraged and blame themselves (I see a bit of this in you messages) which it is hard to admit is ones one fault...but it can be prevented. Lots and lots of people will disagree with the use of a quarantine tank for medicating and observation, but I will say and say it quite bluntly they are not what i would call bright people in the sense they are taking a huge risk that is not needed. If you have a big system it is moronic not to have an equally sized system for quarantining. Some very great people in this hobby will say quarantining is something they don't practise and their tanks are fine...this is nothing more than luck, their day so to speak...will come. This is not a knock on the intelligence per say of people, but their intelligence related to the hobby.

I have noticed you have added a lot of fish in a short time also have met you and seen sick fish in tanks where you have bought your fish ( I will not name the store people, do your own looking when you purchase fish, you may pm me and i will tell you the stores it is not) I even mentioned some of the fish looked like they had a fungus or parasite, but that is neither here nor there. But an observation period allows one to see these things first hand....when one quarantines for 4-6 weeks then anything bad happens in that tank and can be isolated and dealt with.


This is not meant to flame anyone only to offer advice...if anyones advice is to forgo a quarantine tank because YOU didn't need one...keep your inane babble to yourselves...people new to this hobby already get enough useless advice they don't need more. same goes for medications...i repeat medicating a Display tank is simply asking for problems.

Cheers.

Take this anyway you wish.

[my2rotties]

I think I remember you.

I agree with what you are saying totally. I don't want to risk anything. The only fish I am having issues with are the angels, aside of the coral beauty. The tangs, puffer and rabbitfish are in mint condition.

We made mistakes and I can take the I told you so's. I have no intention of doing anything right at the moment until I figure out how to do things. We screwed up I admit it. It is hard to post about info and help knowing this, but it is not about my pride... it is about my fish.

Thanks for the input I need it.

[bullit67]

One problem I see with this is flukes well fresh water flukes any way are to small to be seen with the naked eye you need a micro scope to see them. I know this from many years of koi keeping I have taken a koi heath course with Dr. Eric Johnson DVM. he is a world renowned koi vet. And done many scrapings on my koi looking for flukes. If they are from the same family you wont be able to see them.

[Alberta-newb]

I try to avoid medicating an entire DT if at all possible, the one exception I made was treating for flatworms which I believe resulted in the death of one of my favorite fish. So personally I only use Prazi-Pro in a QT tank. That being said however, I was also concerned at one time about parasites and not having QT space for all my fish I opted for an anti-parasitic that is food based. This medicates the fish directly as opposed to treating the entire water column. What I used is a product called Gel-tek (found at Petland). It's an orange thick liquid that contains praziquentel, as well as two other anti-parasitic meds. It's supposed to be tasty to fish directly but found my fish ignored it so instead I soaked mysid shrimp with it. I held off feeding for a while so everyone was hungry then target fed each fish that I was worried about. No problems, no loss of any inverts either. Not ideal, but worked when QTing everything isn't a viable option.

[Snaz]

It is indeed flukes... I added water to the Ziplock bags and see thousands of them floating in the water around the fish.

Are you sure you did not see scales floating around? Same shape.

[subman]

We made mistakes and I can take the I told you so's. I have no intention of doing anything right at the moment until I figure out how to do things. We screwed up I admit it. It is hard to post about info and help knowing this, but it is not about my pride... it is about my fish.

Thanks for the input I need it.

I applaud you for this. It is one thing to make mistake but it is great when the mistakes are recognized and faced head on. I personally hate asking for help or admitting I made a mistake, but you put your fish ahead of your pride. I hope that everything works out for you.

[Trigger Man]

I think RC carries the medication if you are still looking for it. Good Luck with treatment.

[Pansy-Paws]

I would agree that the fluke diagnosis appears to match the evidence, could be a combination of a skin fluke (causing skin cloudiness and hemorrhaging) and a gill fluke (affecting breathing).

There are many different types of flukes (a fish disease book I have claims ~1500), most of which have a narrow host range in nature. This would explain why only your angelfish appear to have been affected.

I've had battles with flukes in the past, and they can be very resistant. As others have said, first of all, treatment in a QT is required. The use of a QT can also give you a range of treatment options, from the usual prolonged immersion treatment listed on the medicine bottles, or short-term baths (say 30 minutes to 3 hours) with more concentrated dosages of medications. I would recommend the book Fish Diseases by Edward Noga if you want to learn more about disease and treatment.

The effort to catch the Queen Angel for transfer to a QT, even if it means partially dismantling the tank, will give the fish the best chance. A word of caution on setting up a rush QT ... aim to do 25% water changes daily until the biological cycle is established, and really monitor the ammonia level (it can spike within a day and kill --- so have some de-toxifier on hand such as Amquel). Personally, I believe ammonia is the largest cause of death for fish in QT, from my own experience as well, unfortunately.

I would start with prazipro, and next go with formalin if the situation does not improve.

Flukes can double in as little as 24 hours ... good luck in saving the queen.

[Trigger Man]

If you are having a hard time catching your angel I find waiting a couple of hours after everything is sleeping makes everything easier to catch, as the fish tend to move a lot slower if at all. You will need to know where the angel hides out, and then you have a window of a couple of minutes before the fish gets back to being fully alert.

[my2rotties]

I just tried to get the angel... but he hides in a back corner under the rocks. I made so many hiding spots and caves in the tank, I really made things hard for myself... I'm going to RC to see about a fish traps and meds when they open in the morning. I am not looking forward to the next day or two while I try to make things right for the fish. It has been a challenging few days but I don't give up so easily. I just wish I knew what this was before hand. I was treating my fish for infections and ich when I caught the others... no wonder it didn't help. Thanks for all the help everyone, both on the forums and PMs. It is greatly appreciated.

[Pan]

I would agree that the fluke diagnosis appears to match the evidence, could be a combination of a skin fluke (causing skin cloudiness and hemorrhaging) and a gill fluke (affecting breathing).

There are many different types of flukes (a fish disease book I have claims ~1500), most of which have a narrow host range in nature. This would explain why only your angelfish appear to have been affected.

I've had battles with flukes in the past, and they can be very resistant. As others have said, first of all, treatment in a QT is required. The use of a QT can also give you a range of treatment options, from the usual prolonged immersion treatment listed on the medicine bottles, or short-term baths (say 30 minutes to 3 hours) with more concentrated dosages of medications. I would recommend the book Fish Diseases by Edward Noga if you want to learn more about disease and treatment.

The effort to catch the Queen Angel for transfer to a QT, even if it means partially dismantling the tank, will give the fish the best chance. A word of caution on setting up a rush QT ... aim to do 25% water changes daily until the biological cycle is established, and really monitor the ammonia level (it can spike within a day and kill --- so have some de-toxifier on hand such as Amquel). Personally, I believe ammonia is the largest cause of death for fish in QT, from my own experience as well, unfortunately.

I would start with prazipro, and next go with formalin if the situation does not improve.

Flukes can double in as little as 24 hours ... good luck in saving the queen.
There is no biological cycle in a proper quarantine tank....the medications that are effective will kill it off...sigh...hence the reason you don't use them in a display tank...among other reasons...if all you are doing is a hypo treatment then fine....pretty much everything else will effect the biological cycle also frequent water changes are a must always in a quarantine tank. Hence the cost of setting one up properly and why most don't. You need to keep the ammonia down with constant water changes as well as medication levels topped up to required levels. A qt tank is not simply another tank you put fish in and do nothing but look at them. It is for active medicating of fish...just as one would dip corals before you put them in a tank...(ask anyone who has had flatworms if they wished they'd dipped) a qt tank is like a prolonged dipping of fish. Pro-active is better then putting a fish in and simply looking at it...(albeit you must first suspect or see signs of a disease...there are a few catchall products that work quite well for use as a pro-active treatment..always better safe then sorry and if done right no harm to fish) but if you must wait to observe if there is anything wrong with the fish...this is quite acceptable, then so be it. I rather a fish die of an unknown in a qt tank then in my display. You really should medicate every fish you put in your tank...dogs need shots to travel between countries as do humans...is it a stretch to think fish do as well? Again don't worry about a biological cycle for a qt tank...it is simply a waste of your time, as if the fish has something you will more than likely kill it off when medicating.

[my2rotties]

One thing I cannot find is the life cycle of flukes. If I do remove all my fish to QT, how long will it take for my tank to go fallow? I know about ich and that was always my biggest fear and concern for my fish.

So... now I am where I am at, and have learned a lesson or two... I have no idea where the flukes came from and perhaps if I did things more slowly I would have not had these issues. Sadly I did not and it was at the cost of my fish's lives now. Losing money sucks but it is not about the money...

I am going to the city to grab some meds to put into the food until I can better set myself up to deal with this issue. Hopefully a fish trap will work for the fish I know have flukes and I can get them into QT. I will be making the 55g fuge into the QT tank and am able to cut it off and isolate it from my main water supply. Not ideal but it is all I have at this point to work with. I have a separate skimmer for it and will do my best for the fish if I can catch them. Good thing I have dozens of pails to remove the rock work to try to catch them.

So far that is all I have for a plan but I am sure Kevin will be able to help me out with advise when I get there today.

There is a saying "Journey of a thousand miles begins with one step". Well here is the first step that I am going to be taking. I know if I do panic I will make things worse.

I wish I knew how to recognize illness in fish prior to purchase but I guess that is why people do QT. Lesson learned. I bought many corals and live rock form tank shut downs, as well as fish... I do not know where the flukes came form and know I never will.

I do find the varying info quite confusing on what to decide to do at this point, since there are so many options. Picking the right one which is best for my fish is the hardest choice to make.

[Red Coral Aquariums]

I'm going to RC to see about a fish traps and meds when they open in the morning.

Quarantine tank is definitely the way to go. Medicating your display tank is like (chemotherapy) you kill everything off hoping that the beneficial bacteria regenerates faster than the parasite. We do have medication for flukes. We also have fish traps for sale as the trap we lend out to customers for free is out at the moment. *Maybe talk to the Stores you purchased your fish from to see if they might have a fish trap to lend you.* I can see from your strong efforts and determination you are on your way to creating a healthy environment for your finned friends.

Kevin

[my2rotties]

When I started this system my biggest worries were water quality which is always fantastic and ich... I knew nothing about flukes and had difficulty in finding answers to the deaths of my fish. I spoke to two stores and was told the deaths were consistent with cyanide poisoning. However that is a very serious allegation to make so I researched and asked further questions about it. Now I have my answers. In many ways cyanide would have been easier to deal with since that would not be my fault and the problem would be solved...

Now I have a small disaster brewing but I'll get through it. Now I know about this parasite and wish I knew about it before.

When I am ready for new fish which is not happening for a VERY long time, I will medicate for flukes in the bag and while I acclimate them. I think I will stay away from angels although my dwarf angels are just fine. It seems my larger species angels have this parasite. Nobody else is ill or shows any signs of this menace.

I just need to know the life cycle of this parasite but what I have found it can be dormant for years. Now that it is in my tank it seems that I MUST treat the entire system or I will never be rid of it. I cannot remove all my rocks and coral to QT since they eggs can still be living on them at this point.

I think medicated food at this point for the entire tank is best and I will catch the sick fish and QT them... however if I put them back into the display they will get sick again... I really feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place right now.

See you in a couple of hours Kevin, I see the roads will be joyous for me to make the trip form Bragg...

As for the trap, I have no clue where the flukes came from... my bad for stocking the tank quickly. The store the dead angels came from heavily medicates the water to kill all disease so I really have my doubts they had it when they came home. I just don't know but I will be speaking with them tomorrow.

Quarantine tank is definitely the way to go. Medicating your display tank is like (chemotherapy) you kill everything off hoping that the beneficial bacteria regenerates faster than the parasite. We do have medication for flukes. We also have fish traps for sale as the trap we lend out to customers for free is out at the moment. *Maybe talk to the Stores you purchased your fish from to see if they might have a fish trap to lend you.* I can see from your strong efforts and determination you are on your way to creating a healthy environment for your finned friends.

Kevin

[Pansy-Paws]

You asked about the life cycle of flukes, and here's what Dr. Noga says in his book:

There are two modes of reproduction used by flukes, some lays eggs and some give birth to living young. From what I read, a microscope would be needed to determine which type is present, and a PhD in marine biology :biggrin:

Flukes cannot survive more than 2 weeks without a host (except if present as over-wintering eggs) --- Dr. Noga doesn't say what conditions are required for egg laying flukes to start laying over-wintering eggs, but probably a PhD comes in handy on that question too.

The egg layers have a free-swimming larvae stage that may attach to any new host, while the live birth flukes need contact between fish to be spread as they remain on the same host throughout the reproductive cycle.

If your non-angels don't have a problem yet, hopefully that is an indication that the flukes are species specific and won't spread further. We had a fluke attack on our Annularis Angel last July (it had stopped eating by the time we got it into a QT), and no other fish in the display tank ever came down with symptoms.

We also think that the fluke episode triggered a thyroid tumor in the Annularis ... but that's another story. We managed to keep the Annularis alive with tube feeding until its appetite returned, and it's now happily back in the display tank. If you're interested, full details here:

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic88860-10-1.aspx

Good luck with the flukes treatment ...

[FMMreefer]

I had the same problem. I thought I had gotten a really bad case of ich and was treating for that. My problem started with some small white spots that cam and went following quite closely to the cycles of ich. I continued more aggressive treatments for ich, but the problem didn't go away. By the time I realized and did some more research, I determined that my tank had been attacked by the stupid flukes. Unfortunately, by the time I determined that flukes were the problem my tank it was too late to treat.

I am just going to let the tank sit fallow for a month or two, then try to re introduce fish again.

I feel your frustration, I hope you see better success then me.

[Aquattro]

This thread is about 2.5 years old :)