Angel fish and disease

[my2rotties]

Are angel fish harder to keep then most other fish like tangs? I sadly lost my Emperor angel last week due to hemorrhaging and bruising much like my Majestic the week before. All other fish are fine. I put both fish in the freezer and now they have blood coming out of the bruises and mouths. Both were form the same store, and my other angels are fine. I had them since I started the tank back in December and they were fine and suddenly got sick and died on me.

I did not want to post about it since I always get the answers about my system being too new and I added fish too quickly. I bought these two angels a week apart and they died a week apart. Same symptoms and died the same way. I noticed the colour faded on the two of them, but they were eating and active, until one morning they were not. They could not breath and were surfacing to the top of the tank to get air. The Emp was worse and displayed fading colour and would be at the top of the tank a lot a few weeks before dying. I thought it was just quirky behavior since he would go swimming off and nip my corals afterward. He was eating and seemed healthy otherwise. He was sick for awhile now that he passed away but I did not really know until he was half dead the other morning. The Majestic was much quicker in symtoms and death. However she was really small.

What kind of diseases would cause this and why is it only these two fish? I am watching everyone else very closely but they are all active and colourful. I found my angels are not as interactive as my tangs but thought it is just the nature of the species.

[Leah]

I have heard that angels need a well established tank 1 year old. Don't know how true
this is but that is what I am going to do. Maybe it is a source of food that needs to develop. Your tank is really new. From anything I have read. I also heard they like clean
water. I know angels have troubles with flukes. Thats all I think of at the moment.

[my2rotties]

God point but my params are all at zero and never really rise. I have over 400 pounds of well established live rock in my system. There is a 55g fuge, and 72g sump. I have a giant skimmer which is more then the system needs. I run UV and a phosban reactor as well. I do 20% water changes a week even if I don't need to do so to keep water quality. They eat anything I put out for everybody and love my puffers home made mix the best.

How can I treat flukes and how do I know they have them? I don't want these fish to die in vain so whatever I can come up with for answers will help. I have no plans of replacing them, but I just need to know what happened to them. It is hard to post about losing fish, but I cannot better myself with this hobby if I don't learn from mistakes that I have made.

It was a heart breaking loss for these two beautiful fish and when I mentioned it to the LFS they wanted the bodies which I do have... I just don't know how you can know for sure what happened from frozen bodies in ziplock bags.

I have heard that angels need a well established tank 1 year old. Don't know how true
this is but that is what I am going to do. Maybe it is a source of food that needs to develop. Your tank is really new. From anything I have read. I also heard they like clean
water. I know angels have troubles with flukes. Thats all I think of at the moment.

[digital-audiophile]

The tank is to new regardless of established rock and a big skimmer. I know you don't want to hear it but it really is the truth.

[christyf5]

It sounds like a bacteria that went systemic. Were there any lesions on the fish prior to the "bruises"?

[Leah]

Do you QT your fish? I think you can treat flukes with prazi-pro if I am not mistaken.
I think it, is the one drawback to angels and butterflys.

[my2rotties]

If that is the truth then so be it... I can take it. I just want to make sure it is not a disease taking these two fish... everyone else is fine. Why all the blood and hemorrhaging though? What does a new system have to cause these types of deaths. Anything I read with a new system always said it is all about params and water quality which I have. I have pods and I have everything that my research told me I need to provide a healthy stable tank for my fish.

I do not dismiss the fact that I have a new system... however where can I find information as to why this is happening and why a new system is causing these issues?

Thanks for the help. I want to better myself in this hobby and learn from it in the end. Having a new system is a good answer but what about the info to explain why a new system is causing these symptoms ion my fish leading to death?

I can take the heat and this is why I am asking.


The tank is to new regardless of established rock and a big skimmer. I know you don't want to hear it but it really is the truth.

[my2rotties]

NO lesions at all, the evening before the Emp died I saw dark bruises on his sides... they did not look like scrapes but dark bruises. After he died and I took him out blood was coming out of them. I did put him in QT when I found him ill in the morning as I did with the Majestic the week before.

The store I bought these fish from heavily medicates the fish prior to sale and keeps them until they are eating. I did not know it was a bad thing to have them in heavily medicated water to be honest since it would kill any diseases on the fish... so I thought. I went to two other LFS to see what this could have been and was told they do not heavily medicate the fish since they will not have an immune system... What I thought was a good thing was not in the end according to two other store I had spoken to.

I do not QT new fish to be honest. I always found it to be stressful and my research on QT is pretty wide in range for opinions. I have fish in my tank form the 44g that came with this house... they are still alive and well to this day.

It sounds like a bacteria that went systemic. Were there any lesions on the fish prior to the "bruises"?

[my2rotties]

I guess I should say that according to the other stores the deaths sound like cyanide poisoning. I just don't even like bringing that up since it is a very serious thing to state. Without testing and necropsy I cannot and should not even mention such a thing. The other stores do not get larger fish like the Emp due to cyanide and their suppliers not stocking these larger fish. Majestics are also apparently hard to come by as well for the same reason. They also do not stock Regal angels for the aforementioned reasons as well.

Gills flukes make me feel some what better but can I see them on the dead fish if I look at them? I kept them for whatever reason, just in case I could find answers in their deaths in the future.

[Leah]

I think Angels are not meant to be kept in aquariums so I think the idea is to provide
the best chance for their survival. I know if you J&L's web page and look up angel's
they have rated the care they need. And how they acclimate to aquarium life. They
range from medium to hard it is a good quide. So's you take your chance. But I think
they really mean a well established tank. Aged if you will. They also have special food
requirments. That may or may not be met. If I were looking for a specific type of angel
I would read up first then buy. Oh I think you have got it wrong not the system just
good old aging. Which is time and more time.

[my2rotties]

You are right. I guess I felt I had things right since all my rock is from older well established tanks. All from shut downs that were at least two years old or so... I really did my best to ensure the system was well aged quickly and my bad. I had never kept angels prior to this point and now I know better. Never again. My tank sat cycling for more then two months prior to adding livestock as well... I thought I was going to be okay.

I feel like a complete failure but had to come out and ask about the losses. I knew I would get hard facts but I have to come out and be straight with these things since hiding from the truth does nothing to help me with the hobby. All my fish I had prior to this tank and fish from shut downs are thriving. These two were store bought and did not make it... I thought we were good after more then two months of tank life. Perhaps newly caught fish just cannot be as forgiving and I failed them.

I think Angels are not meant to be kept in aquariums so I think the idea is to provide
the best chance for their survival. I know if you J&L's web page and look up angel's
they have rated the care they need. And how they acclimate to aquarium life. They
range from medium to hard it is a good quide. So's you take your chance. But I think
they really mean a well established tank. Aged if you will. They also have special food
requirments. That may or may not be met. If I were looking for a specific type of angel
I would read up first then buy. Oh I think you have got it wrong not the system just
good old aging. Which is time and more time.

[christyf5]

I wouldn't necessarily say "never again" just not necessarily now. There is a huge difference between having the correct stable parameters on a newer tank and an older mature established tank. IMO, its not just about the parameters you can measure.

As for seeing gill flukes on your frozen fish, get out your magnifying glass. They're fairly tiny and delicate and after being frozen and thawed they may just melt away into oblivion.

[Leah]

I know it is really tough to learn the hard way. I am sorry if I am leaving out words, just
noticed I sound drunk. I just have a headache. Anyhow it is good to ask a lot of questions it is how we learn. And I bet half the people on here would not be brave
enough to post that info. Even the bad stuff help's others. When it happens to someone
else we now know not to try it. Maybe someday you will try again.
No matter what we are we are our own worst enemy. We still think we can control the
universe. Man

[my2rotties]

I can hide form these issues all I want but it won't make things better in the long run. I have a flame suit and put it on when I need to do so. Usually things say hard to keep due to eating issues and such. Mine are all PIGS...

I guess I felt that is my params were kept stable, water quality was exceptional, and the fish were eating, had places to hide as well as space to swim they would be just fine. I also thought if I had super upgraded equipment and well established live rock and more then what is needed, I would be okay too. I have cheato (stay tuned for my next stupid question of the day on that:wink:) and nothing goes out of whack ever... My corals are growing and my tank is thriving...

I hate losing fish, I HATE IT!!! These deaths were not pretty and they came on so suddenly. I have been home a lot these days due to lack of work for me, and have ample time to watch everybody...

I just wish I had a concise prognosis to learn from aside of a new tank. I can accept that but it really gives me no real answers that are carved in stone. I have had no tank crashes (knock on wood) or params ever going out of whack. The tank is peaceful and happy and I just don't understand what is happening that I can fix.

Patience is a virtue that I am quickly learning. I have had luck on my side for params and water quality but my luck ran out.

[my2rotties]

I didn't notice you sounded drunk... I'm surprised I have not hit the rum over my fish... but it's too early in the day. Maybe later. Thanks for being so nice since some people can be a tough bunch. I did my research on these fish but felt I was okay. After my puffer I do my home work, and try to find out as much as I can. I never find diseases fish are susceptible to or things that seem to apply to me.

I know it is really tough to learn the hard way. I am sorry if I am leaving out words, just
noticed I sound drunk. I just have a headache. Anyhow it is good to ask a lot of questions it is how we learn. And I bet half the people on here would not be brave
enough to post that info. Even the bad stuff help's others. When it happens to someone
else we now know not to try it. Maybe someday you will try again.
No matter what we are we are our own worst enemy. We still think we can control the
universe. Man

[fishoholic]

Seems more like a disease to me then it being caused from a newish tank. I'm not very well versed in fish disease so unfortunately I couldn't tell you what type of disease but if I come across anything I'll let you know.

[my2rotties]

Well lets hope you never come across it in any way at all. You are the queen of angel fish... You need to tell me what you have been doing to be so successful.

Seems more like a disease to me then it being caused from a newish tank. I'm not very well versed in fish disease so unfortunately I couldn't tell you what type of disease but if I come across anything I'll let you know.

[Trigger Man]

When your angels swam did you ever see them kinda 'twitch' every once in a while, typically head shift left to right or vice versa real quickly for a second or two and then all was good. If so this could be a sign of Flukes. Some have found freshwater dips to help kill some of the flukes, but it is a desease being seen more and more just recently, so from what I know there is currently no 'for sure' cure. The one mentioned in a earlier response in this treat is also said to work. In most cases however the gill areas would be red or inflamed and the death tends to occur quickly. As for cyanide from what I have gathered the death just occurs suddenly with no apparent symptoms. With the bruising and lesions I would think parasites were burying either into the skin or trying to get out of the skin of the fish.

[my2rotties]

Now that you mention this, yes my Emp did do this, but it is such a small thing you don't even think about it. My Majestic did not display the head shaking, and I was told the shaking and twitching was signs of cyanide at both of the LFS I spoke with.

I did some reading on freshwater dips but am scared to death to try it for fear of doing something wrong. I find it very odd that only my angels are displaying this illness and everyone else is fine. I have a queen angel baby and want to get him out and treat him ASAP. He seems fine but they are always fine until they are not.

Off to have a panic attack now. My biggest worry was always ich or my params... I never even thought of something like this since nobody ever talks about it. I did a search yesterday and there was not much info to be had.

Anything else aside of freshwater dips to treat my fish if this comes up ever again?

When your angels swam did you ever see them kinda 'twitch' every once in a while, typically head shift left to right or vice versa real quickly for a second or two and then all was good. If so this could be a sign of Flukes. Some have found freshwater dips to help kill some of the flukes, but it is a desease being seen more and more just recently, so from what I know there is currently no 'for sure' cure. The one mentioned in a earlier response in this treat is also said to work. In most cases however the gill areas would be red or inflamed and the death tends to occur quickly. As for cyanide from what I have gathered the death just occurs suddenly with no apparent symptoms. With the bruising and lesions I would think parasites were burying either into the skin or trying to get out of the skin of the fish.

[fishoholic]

Well lets hope you never come across it in any way at all. You are the queen of angel fish... You need to tell me what you have been doing to be so successful.

My Queen and Blueface were bought off of another canreef member and both were very healthy to begin with. I got my emperor and my blue ring from a lfs and both were eating and seemed healthy before I bought them. However my black velvet angel died within a week after purchase, seemed healthy at the store but I couldn't get it to eat in my tank.