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View Full Version : Suggestions/help for 10g nano?


matthewpunger
02-22-2009, 06:02 PM
Hey there,

I wanted to ask advice and suggestions from all those experienced and smart reef keepers. My tank has been having some difficulties for the past 2 months and is starting to frustrate me.

so here's my tank:
10g, HOB filter, small heater, nano koralia PH, 70W MH
11lbs LR (presently covered in hair algae and some cyano which is now going down)
1 yellow tail blue damsel - have had it for 1 year
1 (new) tiny algae blenny
5 small hermits
5 turbo snails
2 nassarius snails (about 1.5" diameter),
1 large hitchiker crab named fred that may need to go
now, only some softies - mushrooms, zoos, xenia, palys (presently all closed or not fully extended)
upon tests - 0 nitrates/nitrites, 0 phosphates, ammonia: 0.1, salinity 1.025, not sure about ph.
I get RO water from the grocery store and use oceanpure salt

Okay, so I've hinted at some problems already - lots of hair algae, about 3 weeks ago my tank was covered in cyano, my Monticap completely died 2 days ago, I had a yellow clown goby for 10 months that just died as well. My zoos and palys aren't doing well, my mushrooms and ricordea aren't liking life too much either.

I went away for about a week over Xmas and had a buddy feed my fish when most of the problems started and things have just deteriorated from there. I've been religious with water changes at least once a week, but mostly twice a week, at about 40%. I haven't used additives until this point and just tried the red slime remover which seemed to help the cyano (but possibly not dealing with the root cause), just started adding bacteria treatments, and now phytoplex. I really don't want to get into the chemical thing at all since I believe that may just bandaid what's going on, and water changes to the extent that I'm doing them should be sufficient. I think the lamp is starting to change a bit (its 14k, 70W and about 10 months old), so have just ordered a replacement.

I'm sort of at the point where I feel like I need to start over, do something drastic, trade everything in or anything just to get things running proper. I had thought I had done my research on the blenny before I got him, but am now just realizing that while he might be alright for a couple months while he's so small, he will outgrow my tank quite quickly. argh. bad decisions? :redface:

I am now thinking about a rio protein skimmer, or trading in fish, but have no clue at this point.

so, any help would be appreciated by anyone that would have any suggestions.

Thanks!

Snaz
02-22-2009, 06:25 PM
Hmm.

Water from the supermarket is not to be trusted, who knows how often the filters are serviced and does that servicing match usage. Remember the kid replacing the filters is getting a little better than minimum wage and would rather be chatting up the florists than messing with wet filters.

I get my water from a small local company that does nothing but fill water bottles for drinking. I asked and dude gave a full tour of his industrial Culligan filters and showed me his log book including TDS in and TDS out.

I have never had Hair or Cyano in my 12 Gallon and I think the water has a lot to do with it.

Ammonia with no nitrate or nitrates to me means your cycle is messed up. I would stop all dosing of "Bacteria in a Bottle" and let your tank sort it self out naturally, think of it as a mini-cycle.

What is in your HOB filter? If it is a sponge make sure it is switched out with a clean one at least twice a week. I use filter floss instead, much easier. If your sponge ever starts to smell "fishy" then it has been in there too long and needs swapping out with a fresh one.

Confirm all test results with another reefer or LFS

matthewpunger
02-22-2009, 06:59 PM
Hey Snaz,
Thanks very much for the reply...

the filter is a small biowheel with carbon and filter floss cartridge. I also use a small bit of "pura filtration pad" that I just threw out. I will use the last few chunks of it over the next week or two, changing them every couple of days. thanks for the suggestion; i've just read recently that they can turn into nitrate pads, but mine is on the other side of the carbon and floss filter just for extra filtration.

dosing stuff - i just dosed once, but I will cease and desist as of now :smile:

testing - the tests were done at a LFS actually, and ran out of the water i provided before we could do further testing of parameters.

I never had any problems with hair algae and cyano either until this fall which is why it is concerning me. Although...things started sort of after this :redface: : I had an outright destructive pod infestation. :surprise: seriously! all the big pods (i think they are arthropods) ate all the little ones, grew enormous, thousands of them that started eating everything in my tank when i had taken out all the caluerpa I had growing out of control (which was probably keeping everything in check). They were eating all my zoos and started chewing on snails and anything. At one point my entire tank turned carnivorous. so, I did a freshwater dip on the two main rocks and thousands erupted from the rocks along with flatworms and most of my good inverts. I was just afraid that I would have had another catastrophe because of the ferocious pods. probably another bad decision!

since then, my tank has really struggled dealing with keeping everything in check it seems like. I haven't been able to keep any sps alive and my softies have not grown at all for a few months. I've been thinking of trying to replenish the copepod population; I've seen a few since the crash, but not many.

I'll check out a place to get RO/DI water as well...

how could one do a mini-cycle on this tank?

Snaz
02-22-2009, 07:27 PM
Well a mini cycle will just happen if it needs too. The Ammonia with no Nitrates or Nitrites lead me to think you will get a mini cycle.

If you see one pod then you are not seeing the other 10 hidden away. As long as you see a couple after lights out I would not bother putting in more.

1. Change the bulb if you suspect it is deteroriated and throwing yellow light which might explain the algae issue.
2. Make sure the carbon/floss of the HOB are not rotting.
3. Look for "dead spots" areas of low flow where waste will sit and rot, aim your PH there to keep things stirred up.
4. Get a better water source.
5. Run fresh carbon if you have it.

I think that would be a good start.

matthewpunger
02-22-2009, 07:31 PM
Thanks Snaz,

That's all good advice, I'll get on all of it ASAP.

Do you think the algae blenny will be alright in the tank for a few months, or should I think of giving it up before then?

thanks,
Matt

Rbacchiega
02-22-2009, 08:48 PM
also keep in mind that although you may be reading 0 for phosphates, the fact that you have algae means there are indeed phosphates in the water. Usually the algae is just using it up to the point where it is nearly undetectable.

Cyano is usually caused by areas of low flow and high nutrients. When you do the water change are you just skimming from the water surface or getting down into the bed?

matthewpunger
02-22-2009, 09:03 PM
Thanks, that's good to know. When I do water changes, I blow off the rocks, try and scrape the cyano and trim the algae, and vacuum the gravel as much as possible. so far it has come back quite quickly.

I think I might have convinced myself to get a rio nano skimmer and run that on low with weekly water changes to help deal with the excess nutrients.

would that make sense?

Snaz
02-22-2009, 09:15 PM
Thanks Snaz,

That's all good advice, I'll get on all of it ASAP.

Do you think the algae blenny will be alright in the tank for a few months, or should I think of giving it up before then?

thanks,
Matt

Well if the tank does cycle the fish and coral may be at risk, depends on how harsh the cycle is. Keep testing to make sure the ammonia is being broken down.

matthewpunger
02-22-2009, 09:31 PM
alright, I'll keep an eye on everything. I did add rock about 3 months ago that I was told was cured to help restock the organisms in it. After adding it, I realized that it hadn't been fully cured and would need to go through a cycle, but I had thought that the cycle would have completed by now though.
thanks,
Matt

BlueAbyss
02-23-2009, 05:50 AM
alright, I'll keep an eye on everything. I did add rock about 3 months ago that I was told was cured to help restock the organisms in it. After adding it, I realized that it hadn't been fully cured and would need to go through a cycle, but I had thought that the cycle would have completed by now though.
thanks,
Matt

See the problem with doing a 'hard' traditional cycle is this: you have ammonia (the start of the cycle) which if not reduced or removed fast enough will cause more die-off, which produces more ammonia, more die-off, etc. This can go on for months in some tanks, until the tank finally reaches an equilibrium. It is possible that this is what is happening in your tank, but regular testing is the only way to be sure.

If this is the case, I would continue doing heavy water changes and test daily (at least) so you know if you need to remove the livestock.... BUT....

You said your problems started in the fall... did it start for seemingly no reason? And hasn't improved at all? It's possible that the RO membrane in the big filter in the store is past it's useful life, and the store just hasn't noticed (or doesn't care). I would buy a TDS meter to see what it says, just to be safe. I'll bet your test of their 'pure' water will surprise you.

Ron99
02-23-2009, 03:40 PM
Hi Snaz,

Where in Surrey do you get your water? Sorry to hijack the thread a bit...

Thanks,

Ron

Snaz
02-23-2009, 04:27 PM
http://www.aquaibiza.com/
Cloverdale, so it might be a bit far for you.

If you prepay for 10 bottles it cost $2.00/bottle picked up.

Ron99
02-23-2009, 08:53 PM
That's not to bad. Maybe a 15 or 20 minute drive and a big bottle should last me 2 weeks. Is it RO/DI water or just the standard Culligan RO with carbon filter? This could be a good option for those of us with nano tanks who don't really see the need to invest in our own RO/DI unit.

Snaz
02-23-2009, 09:59 PM
That's not to bad. Maybe a 15 or 20 minute drive and a big bottle should last me 2 weeks. Is it RO/DI water or just the standard Culligan RO with carbon filter? This could be a good option for those of us with nano tanks who don't really see the need to invest in our own RO/DI unit.

Its a huge honking RO/DI setup. I go through 2 bottles in four weeks doing 12% water change weekly plus various rinsing and top ups.

ElGuappo
02-23-2009, 11:18 PM
i would not recomend a rio nano skimmer. i hate mine. would just take half my water ,from the changes, from the top inch of the water thus removing the dirty water that can settle on top.

matthewpunger
02-25-2009, 06:22 AM
Thanks for all the responses so far. So the Rio's no good eh? I was curious. Also, in response to blueabyss, I think you're right, it seemed to be the continuous cycle of die off, ammonia, die off. I've now actually decided against the protein skimmer. I've been changing the water a little bit almost everyday for a little while, I've taken my filter completely apart and scrubbed it. I think this was a large part of the problem. An enormous amount of junk came out of it (disgusting!), my flow more than doubled afterwards. I've also taken anything out my tank that might have been a problem - some further die off that I was hoping was still alive :frown:

I am hopeful now though - things are definitely clearing up and looking much better. Today my purple palys opened up for the first time in a couple of months, my brown palys are looking better, and my mushrooms are now getting fuller again.

For the time being, I think I will make this just a softie tank, no SPS for now; I've had terrible luck with it so far. I've been trying to keep my set-up really simple, I've done tons of reading, but lately the more I read the more I'm realizing that I'm not doing some things terribly optimally for this kind of tank. Before I relied on the LFS for my testing and relied almost completely on water changes to take care of everything else. I finally broke down and got some testing supplies, and stuff that will stabilize my PH and trace elements, and Chemi-pure filter media. I discovered that my PH was quite low - around 6, I think. I got it up to about 8 now.

Hopefully this will all help!

how does this sound to people? Am I on the right track?

BlueAbyss
02-25-2009, 06:50 PM
Sounds like you are on the right track... that's some low pH! No wonder you had die-off!

Going skimmerless is fine, just make sure you don't skip those water changes. I can almost guarantee that your filter was the main problem here, as it sounds like it was pumping all kinds of bad DOCs into your tank. If you are using ANY sort of filter media, make sure you replace it weekly and keep the canister spotless.

As far as trace elements go, I wouldn't bother. What sort of trace elements did you buy? 'Cause anything that would be depleted that can actually be considered a trace element (ie: NOT calcium, magnesium, or alkalinity) will be replaced with your water changes, and you could easily run into problems dosing 'trace' elements in a small tank, depending on what your salt contains for these. Elements such as strontium, molybdenum, and the like are strongly debated... a few years ago these were considered a 'must', now with better research it is known that the most important are calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity (and a lack of DOCs or generally 'pure' saltwater without a lot of 'junk' in it). I personally would put the bottle of trace elements away and forget I bought it... or give it away.

Sounds like things are looking up! How about starting a build thread or tank journal?

matthewpunger
03-01-2009, 05:49 PM
Hey Blueabyss,
Thanks for all the suggestions. I guess I had my terminology not entirely correct. The supplement I got was Kent's nano-reef 2 part ion buffer system - for mostly calcium, magnesium and alkilinity. It seemed to be what some nano-reefers without skimmers use.

One night last week, after the filter media addition and cleaning, almost all my cyanobacteria completely disappeared. I'm still changing the water now once every couple of days, trying to blow off the rocks since the snails are devouring the hair algae like candy and leaving their mess all abouts. A lot of my zoos and mushrooms are opening up and filling out again very nicely.

I recieved the new light, but am not too happy about the colour. I think its bright enough and the corals are liking it, but its pretty yellow compared to my old one and they are both supposed to be 14K. Any suggestions as to what brand and where I can get a good 70W MH?

I may start a tank journal, thought I'd have to borrow a decent digital camera since mine is pretty terrible for such pictures.

Best,
Matt

Snaz
03-03-2009, 04:52 PM
I concur with above. Don't add mineral supplements like cal, mag etc. Because you are skimmerless you will be doing weekly 10% water changes and the fresh salt will give your tank everything it needs.