'PicoSurge'

[BlueAbyss]

Alright, so I might as well start a thread for this :lol:

I've put the larger surged system on temporary hold, partially because I want to start with something smaller, and partially (perhaps more importantly) because I need to test some of my theories and doing it on a large scale will just be too expensive until I know it works... and I'm lazy :wink: So without further ado...

This will be a fully surged pico system (though by some definition this would be a nano) with a useable water volume of 5.3 gallons. The actual tank dimensions will be 26l x 8w x 9d, but at either end 3" is lost for utilities (leaving around 6 gallons) and there will be a 1" sandbed installed.

Planned turnover will change during day and night cycles, with one or two surge tanks. One end of the tank is reserved for surge 'breaking' and the other for overflow. There will definitely be a closed-loop style return built into the tank, it's undecided ATM whether I'll run a closed-loop or a second surge tank. Either way my pump of choice is the Sedra KSP-1000 and 2000, though I don't know if the 2000 will accomplish 150gph at an 18" head height. The idea is to have a tank turnover of 50x.

The star of the show here is going to be my DIY lighting which should rival MH... more to come about that later, I'll be running around 60+W in this tank. The colour temperature and overall intensity will be adjustable. No I won't get sued :twised: I'm hoping the prodigious use of LEDs will transmit little heat into the water, which is my main concern for this tank... growing SPS without boiling the water.

Did I just say SPS? I sure did! In 5 gallons of water? That's right, it's not a misprint :biggrin: I won't have many... in fact there won't be many of anything in this tank, except different species... the stocking list is similar to what I had planned for the larger surged tank, but downgraded.

Tentative Stocking List:

Bumblebee Shrimp - 3
Sharknose Goby - 2
Pom Pom Crab - 2
Some smaller snails <1"

Macroalgae (Peysonnellia, Halimeda)
Photosynthetic Sponges
Photosynthetic Gorgonians
Christmas Tree Worm Rock / Porites SPS
Some other SPS (Montipora, Acropora, who knows:wink:)
Some sort of LPS (choosing from Acans, Blastos, Micros, chalices, not all of these... whatever catches my eye)
Zoas, Ricordea

I'll be starting with the freshest live rock I can order from J & L in early summer, before it's too hot. I like the look of the Irian Jaya rock, I'll probably order 25 lbs and whatever doesn't go into the surge tank will go into another AIO tank... that one will probably be the 20 gallon, and will probably end up being a 'side project' of some kind. I won't know till I have the extra rock :biggrin: The biggest problem here will be getting the money together for the lighting, which will by far be the most expensive part of this project. Good thing LEDs last 50000 hours :wink:

Hoping to keep the entire setup clean looking by hiding everything. We'll see how that goes, I might still be in the experimentation phase when the rock gets here :redface:

[golf nut]

You won't get sued as long as it's for your own use, I would be interested in your surge idea.

[Myka]

Interesting idea, I'll be tagging alone for the ride. That Irian Jaya rock scares me...it has so much green on it! I wonder why J&L isn't stocking Tonga and Fiji anymore...? All their live rock is over $8/lb now. That's steep.

[bignose]

Can you define a surge tank for me? I've never heard of that before.

[mseepman]

Tonga rock is banned from collection now if I remember correctly.

[BlueAbyss]

Tonga rock is banned from collection now if I remember correctly.

Yes, they've stopped exporting it.

Can you define a surge tank for me? I've never heard of that before.

Hmm, well I'm not sure there's a definition for it, really... I would define it, personally and for my own uses, as a tank that is fed it's flow mostly by surge device. I suppose it could be considered a 'tidepool' style tank by some. And lots of flow too, like 50x turnover.

I use the term as a way to describe the planned flow of water through the tank, a (relatively) large volume of water moving in a dominant direction with some flowback but with low force. Or that's the idea anyhow :wink: I'm not sure what the turbulence will be like inside the tank with my current ideas... the tiny fishes and shrimps and crabs might get blown away, or that's my fear. I won't know until I build it :mrgreen:

[Delphinus]

I toyed with the idea of toilet flapper surge tanks over my 75g some years ago. In the end I discontinued them because the flappers kept getting hung up (a problem with the way I implemented them, not a problem with the idea of a toilet flapper surge tank, per se), and also just because I was sort of disappointed with the amount of flow that came out. I had 2 1-1/2" outputs per tank and it was just as if someone had turned on a pump for 30 seconds. I really wanted a more dramatic "crash" of water but realized I had nowhere near the height to work with for the kind of head pressure that would take.

I started wondering how it would be if, instead of a toilet flapper, one could use an automated valve of some kind. Then you could have it open and close at intervals and probably reduce the amount of air introduced into the tank (unless, of course, the bubbles are something you want - after all most waves do sort of create transient bubbles).

I've also wondered what a Carlson surge tank would look like if you used really large diameter pipe so the tank emptied briskly..

Anyhow, fun stuff, wish I had more time/energy to play around more with this sort of thing. :) Good luck with your experiment, can't wait to see it in action! :cool:

[BlueAbyss]

Interesting idea, I'll be tagging alone for the ride. That Irian Jaya rock scares me...it has so much green on it! I wonder why J&L isn't stocking Tonga and Fiji anymore...? All their live rock is over $8/lb now. That's steep.

The green doesn't scare me... actually that's one of the attractions for me. Green ocean stuff always has all kind of critters associated with it.

On a side note, I'll order some Vanuatu at the same time... It looks pretty cool, and the wierd shapes will give me something to look at in the 20 gallon. More variety is good too, apparently there's evidence of encrusting corals on the Vanuatu rock... which makes me think sponges and tunicates and such. Interesting pieces will go into the pico, and the leftovers in the 20. No sense wasting good rock. :wink:

Yeah I thought it was sort of expensive for live rock, but then I compare it to the live rock I've seen in some shops in the city... that stuff just looks like coral skeletons with algae on it, and it's not that much cheaper at least wasn't where I saw. I want rock with diversity.

[BlueAbyss]

I toyed with the idea of toilet flapper surge tanks over my 75g some years ago. In the end I discontinued them because the flappers kept getting hung up (a problem with the way I implemented them, not a problem with the idea of a toilet flapper surge tank, per se), and also just because I was sort of disappointed with the amount of flow that came out. I had 2 1-1/2" outputs per tank and it was just as if someone had turned on a pump for 30 seconds. I really wanted a more dramatic "crash" of water but realized I had nowhere near the height to work with for the kind of head pressure that would take.

I started wondering how it would be if, instead of a toilet flapper, one could use an automated valve of some kind. Then you could have it open and close at intervals and probably reduce the amount of air introduced into the tank (unless, of course, the bubbles are something you want - after all most waves do sort of create transient bubbles).

I've also wondered what a Carlson surge tank would look like if you used really large diameter pipe so the tank emptied briskly..

Anyhow, fun stuff, wish I had more time/energy to play around more with this sort of thing. :) Good luck with your experiment, can't wait to see it in action! :cool:

I'll be using a modified CSD that should empty 1l in about 2s or less... dammit, you figured out my idea! :lol:

Well since the cat-is-out-of-the-bag so to speak, I might as well tell you what I bought... I have a length of 1 3/4" ABS and a length of 3/4 " CPVC tube from CDN Tire last night, and a 1 3/4 cap. The idea is that the siphon will be one tube inside the other (which will be capped) and the assembly will be in its own small tank above the display. This will be piped down into a bubble settlling chamber at one end of the tank, and will flow strongly across the top of the tank and less so near the sandbed. I have yet to test my siphon... actually I put the pipes in the corner and haven't touched them. I won't until I get a bucket and some silicone. Then it's on! :lol:

I actually did consider using a solenoid but can't run the risk that it might fail (which it would)... stuck open, no big deal... stuck closed and we have a problem. So I go with the low tech method, and use other low tech devices to fix the issues with the first low tech device. If only the lighting was going to be this easy or cheap!

[Whatigot]

HEY.
less planning, more reefing.


Seriously, this sounds like a sweet project, hurry it up.

[BlueAbyss]

HEY.
less planning, more reefing.


Seriously, this sounds like a sweet project, hurry it up.

Yayaya, I'm workin on it. :mrgreen: ETA 3 months. Time me :wink:

[Whatigot]

And go!!!

[Delphinus]

Yeah, I guess you'd have to plumb an emergency overflow if you went with an automated valve (one nice thing about the toilet flapper valves is they have that "feature" already). The thing that turned me off the automated valve idea, when I looked into it, was the cost ... "ouch" doesn't begin to cover it. I guess there are sprinkler valves but I'm not sure how big they get, or how well they'd stand up to saltwater .. the ones I looked at, at Home Depot, had metal springs and so on, so I don't think they'd be suitable.

Anyhow I'm real excited to see this project progress, I'll be watching this for sure! :cool:

[Rbacchiega]

tagging along...

[bignose]

I seen someone on Utube with a toilet flapper device. I'm interested, I'll tag too.

[golf nut]

I'll be using a modified CSD that should empty 1l in about 2s or less... dammit, you figured out my idea! :lol:

Well since the cat-is-out-of-the-bag so to speak, I might as well tell you what I bought... I have a length of 1 3/4" ABS and a length of 3/4 " CPVC tube from CDN Tire last night, and a 1 3/4 cap. The idea is that the siphon will be one tube inside the other (which will be capped) and the assembly will be in its own small tank above the display. This will be piped down into a bubble settlling chamber at one end of the tank, and will flow strongly across the top of the tank and less so near the sandbed. I have yet to test my siphon... actually I put the pipes in the corner and haven't touched them. I won't until I get a bucket and some silicone. Then it's on! :lol:

I actually did consider using a solenoid but can't run the risk that it might fail (which it would)... stuck open, no big deal... stuck closed and we have a problem. So I go with the low tech method, and use other low tech devices to fix the issues with the first low tech device. If only the lighting was going to be this easy or cheap!

Do you have a pic of the proposed plan?

[BlueAbyss]

Do you have a pic of the proposed plan?

Not at the moment no... Soon, I'm working it out on paper and will do a full draw-up once I've got everything figured.

I will not be using the toilet flapper, mainly because it will take up waaaay more space than I can alot to the surge system. The surge itself will only be about 1 liter, so I don't need something huge... and the more compact the better. On that note, I've realized that I still will need an emergency drain on the surge tank for me to feel completely safe about it. Though there should never (EVER!) be water running through it, the piping I'll be using will be too big to get blocked by anything that would make it through the pump.

I've tried to minimize the size of the CSD siphon and surge tank(s) but even so the system is looking like there will be parts that are quite tall. Hmm... well, there's some more design work to be done, a couple kinks need to get worked out. I'm on it, don't worry.

More to come when I get the design down. Then I'll have pics of the proposed plan. Or plans. Whatever :wink:

[BlueAbyss]

So, I've decided to just modify the trimless 20 gallon tank that I have to produce the tank size that I need. I'm still calling it a pico :wink: Essentially, I will be building a tank within a tank. This will allow me to do a couple things...

1. Instant sump! Using the 20 gallon allows me to use the original principal of having a sump system and overflow... And depending on how much water I decide to keep in the sump, I might be able to fit a skimmer in there! The sump will contain the heater, pumps, and all plumbing.

2. The LED lighting system that I'm building will now be fully modular. I'll be basically building mini spotlights, though I haven't decided if I'll be using optics or not... I think at first not. Either way the rack will be mounted at the top of the surge unit... about 8" off the water's surface. The lights themselves I'll probably hang at first, until I figure out how to gimbal them.

3. The surge unit... I've worked out the size... the whole unit will stand 24" tall, including the height of the 20 gallon. Not too shabby, and since the 20 gallon tank itself will form the case for the pico, all plumbing and pipes will be hidden. Eventually... It'll look pretty frankensteiny until the tank is painted or whatever I decide to do... likely skinning. So the 'clean' look I'm going for will come with time.

So this is officially a 'mod' project. I'm cool with that :mrgreen: It's still a pico (the original 20 x 8 x 9 still applies). I still get a sump. A better one, in fact, and no worries if something leaks! Everything stays modular and able to move to a different tank if (when?) the time comes and that happens. I might be able to attempt my passive skimmer now! Probably not worth it on a 5.5 gallon display though :lol:

[BlueAbyss]

I want to make a point that although the lighting and everything else points to this build not being in the same vein as my other planted project, I expect that this tank will be 1/2 to 1/3 planted. There will not be any seagrasses in this one though, just macros. The tentative stocking list above doesn't reflect this, but I do intend for there to be some surviving hitchhikers and will alter my plans accordingly.

I do want to keep some SPS corals, specifically that which hitches in (if any) and Porites, the symbiotic coral for christmas tree worms. SPS aren't the true focus of this tank... diversity is :wink:

[golf nut]

Not at the moment no... Soon, I'm working it out on paper and will do a full draw-up once I've got everything figured.

I will not be using the toilet flapper, mainly because it will take up waaaay more space than I can alot to the surge system. The surge itself will only be about 1 liter, so I don't need something huge... and the more compact the better. On that note, I've realized that I still will need an emergency drain on the surge tank for me to feel completely safe about it. Though there should never (EVER!) be water running through it, the piping I'll be using will be too big to get blocked by anything that would make it through the pump.

I've tried to minimize the size of the CSD siphon and surge tank(s) but even so the system is looking like there will be parts that are quite tall. Hmm... well, there's some more design work to be done, a couple kinks need to get worked out. I'm on it, don't worry.

More to come when I get the design down. Then I'll have pics of the proposed plan. Or plans. Whatever :wink:

I think I have read this before a couple of times. the couple of kinks can become a huge pain in the orifice.

[BlueAbyss]

I think I have read this before a couple of times. the couple of kinks can become a huge pain in the orifice.

True that. I'm sure I've repeated myself also... Sorry 'bout that :wink: But things are moving along!

On that note...
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/TheVastMajority/picoplan1-1.jpg

There's a basic idea of what this project is. Now it's bed time... been a long night figuring out Sketchup, but worth watching the tutorials :biggrin:

[golf nut]

True that. I'm sure I've repeated myself also... Sorry 'bout that :wink: But things are moving along!

On that note...
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/TheVastMajority/picoplan1-1.jpg

There's a basic idea of what this project is. Now it's bed time... been a long night figuring out Sketchup, but worth watching the tutorials :biggrin:
The comment wasn't directed at you, I have built many machines and know that 98% is pretty straightforward, it's the last 2% or the kink that causes you the grief.

In your pic are you planning on dumping into a chamber along side the tank on the right?

[superduperwesman]

True that. I'm sure I've repeated myself also... Sorry 'bout that :wink: But things are moving along!

On that note...
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/TheVastMajority/picoplan1-1.jpg

There's a basic idea of what this project is. Now it's bed time... been a long night figuring out Sketchup, but worth watching the tutorials :biggrin:

I thought you couldn't copyright IDEAS ahah

[bignose]

Wow I've never seen a tank like this. How do you clean the sump below the display? Looks interesting can't wait for build pictures.

[golf nut]

Here as another option for you, sort of complicated but a true dual surge without any tank level changes. notice the lower surge tanks have sealed tops to them, they are not open to the air.

[BlueAbyss]

The comment wasn't directed at you, I have built many machines and know that 98% is pretty straightforward, it's the last 2% or the kink that causes you the grief.

In your pic are you planning on dumping into a chamber along side the tank on the right?

I wasn't sure what you meant :twised: Yeah the bugs are tough sometimes... in the end it always works out. This idea went through about 3 different iterations before the one you see now. :wink:

As far as dumping into a chamber on the right, do you mean overflow-wise or surge-wise? If you mean overflow-wise, yes. Surge-wise... I considered that, and it's still an option. Originally my plan was to have surge from both ends and overflow backwards coast-to-coast style... but I think I may set up a 'closed loop' style return from the sump, so that the prevailing water currents are flowing away from the overflow. This should do 2 things... eliminate dead spots at night when the surge system is in 'night mode' and set up water flow that flows slowly in one direction and quickly in the opposite. I want to approximate the look of surges on the reef, and I think this may do it. I may get 2 extra pieces of glass cut just in case I change my mind :idea:

I thought you couldn't copyright IDEAS ahah

So did PFO :wink:

Wow I've never seen a tank like this. How do you clean the sump below the display? Looks interesting can't wait for build pictures.

I'll employ the help of snails or hermits... and a cleaning magnet and siphon :biggrin:. Though neither of these will do the job entirely because of the obstructions down there... a lot of piping, the pumps, heater, etc. I want to maintain a clean look, so I don't really want to be able to see all of these utilities. I plan to skin the tank and surge tanks leaving the 'pico' area open for viewing, with a removable front panel so I can see what I'm doing when I clean... BUT this won't happen for a while, or at least until I'm happy with the actual build part :mrgreen:

[BlueAbyss]

Here as another option for you, sort of complicated but a true dual surge without any tank level changes. notice the lower surge tanks have sealed tops to them, they are not open to the air.

OMG I think that may solve my problem with fluctuating sump levels :idea: I like this drawing! I need to figure out a way to make an area that doesn't fluctuate with surge but still lets me know when I need to top off... not sure if this would do that, though the water level in the lower chambers should never change which in itself could be useful. I like the concept though, and will likely apply something like this in my seagrass build :wink:

[golf nut]

OMG I think that may solve my problem with fluctuating sump levels :idea: I like this drawing! I need to figure out a way to make an area that doesn't fluctuate with surge but still lets me know when I need to top off... not sure if this would do that, though the water level in the lower chambers should never change which in itself could be useful. I like the concept though, and will likely apply something like this in my seagrass build :wink:

Have you considered using the flow from the pump to do the switching?

[BlueAbyss]

Yes I've considered a number of options... some are good, some only decent...

Wavemakers seem great off the start, and are relatively simple... all you really need is a pair of powerheads or pumps with the outputs at either end of the tank, and a short-cycle timer. PROS: reasonably priced, no moving parts (depending on the timer). CONS: Boring. LOL.

Sinusoidal valves are really cool in terms of 'geek' factor, work very well, and can produce some interesting flow patterns... more interesting (IMO) than wavemakers. This is still a semi-viable option for me, since I can DIY the heck out of it. PROS: interesting flow patterns, reasonably priced. CONS: requires seals and has moving parts.

Both of these have one problem in common: the fact that they rely on the flow from the pump to move the water. To move the amount of water in 2 seconds that I would need the pump to move would require a pump way larger than I'm willing to hook up in this system. I'm not sure that what I have planned can even do what I want it to :lol: What I want to do is dump 1l of water in less than 2 seconds... every 4 seconds.

The solenoid is looking better and better now that I'm looking into an Arduino microcontroller to control my lighting...

Solenoid valves work awesome and would be perfect for my application... PROS: little in the way of extraneous junk hanging around, easily DIYed CONS: moving parts, notorious for sticking.

So I'm sticking with my modified CSD. Until I prove whether it will work or not. And whether the baffle chamber will break the bubbles that seem inevitable, though I wonder if the bubbles aren't associated with the design of the siphon? I guess I won't know until I try my siphon design. I will be trying my siphon design first to see if I am satisfied with it before I finalize my design and order the glass that I'll be needing. I may still end up doing a backwards overflow and having surge from opposite ends, though I worry that this setup would be too turbulent.

[golf nut]

Which pump would you like to use? .


I am not yet sure how your baffles are going to work but gut instinct says that the chamber is simply going to fill and only slowly release into the tank, should the surge not enter directly into the tank to get you the momentum you are looking for?

[BlueAbyss]

Well, the baffles will actually be perforated and so shouldn't reduce the flow too much. The idea with the baffles is to spread the flow out and reduce the velocity but not slow down the flow. EDIT: Now that I think about it, reducing the velocity IS reducing the speed of the flow... that's fine as long as it still runs the 300 gph I want.

I'm looking at using a pair of MiniJet 606 pumps, 1 for each surge tank (unless I go with a closed loop, then 1 will feed the closed loop and the other will feed a single surge tank).

[golf nut]

The whole reason for using a surge is to get flow into the tank,the trick is to do it without noise and bubbles, there is no such thing as a free lunch, you still need to power a pump to fill the surge.

I am curious as to how you settled on the one liter surge every 4 seconds.

[BlueAbyss]

I settled on (roughly) 1 liter every 4 seconds as a guideline for getting the flow I want in the time span I want... Here's how I figured it:

1l / 4 secs = 25l /min (around 6 gallons / min)
6 gallons x 60 mins = 360 gph or 60x turnover

EDIT: Also, I think the span between the surges have to be reasonably short, and the surge itself has to be very fast. I'm going to be playing around with 3/4" piping, I'm not sure if the flow will be fast enough... I might have to go get some 1" pipe :biggrin:

Realistically the volume will likely be less than this, more like 50x turnover because I feel that 60x might be too much? If the flow is turbulent (I'm trying to avoid this) this will be too much flow. If I decide to go with the MiniJet pumps as I mentioned before, they are rated for around 150 gph. If I bought a pair (which I would) that gives me 50x turnover during the day and 25x at night (less once you take into account head loss).

I would actually like to surge the full volume of water that will move through the display, which is why I'm planning for 2 surge tanks (one timed different and with a different volume). Still working the kinks out, I'll know more this week some time. I have to get a pail and some silicone to build a prototype of my surge siphon :lol:

[Delphinus]

3/4" or 1" for the discharge line or the fill line? Can we get that kind of release rate using 3/4", maybe even 1" if we're just using gravity and don't have a lot of head-pressure/height to push the water down into the pipe when releasing? I was just thinking about this, it would be neat if you could do a sealed container that you could pressure up with an air pump, but I suppose that wouldn't work with a Carlson surge.

Are you thinking about going with a larger diameter pipe if it doesn't work?

[BlueAbyss]

3/4" for the discharge... I suspect that you're right, I don't think I can move 1l of water through a 3/4" line in 2 seconds. Definitely going to larger pipe for the outputs if I need to.

The air pump idea reminds me of something called a Reverse CSD, which uses air pressure to push water out of a chamber, when a certain pipe gets exposed by the falling water level the air pressure equalizes and water rushes back into the chamber, producing the surge. I can't find the page where this device was discussed though, so I don't know how to build one :redface: I wish I had bookmarked that page.

[Delphinus]

Yeah, I've heard of those. I think if you just google "Reverse Carlson" you ought to find something. They are a neat idea but I think drawback is that, at least as I understand it, you have to have this chamber inside your tank which to me means it's likely not suitable for a small tank. Even for a regular size tank you'd want this thing hidden off to the side or the back in some unviewable area kind of thing..

[golf nut]

You could do a RCSD by installing a couple of bulkheads on either side of the tank, low down to be the most effective, you will still hear air rushing out as you release them.

However this will cause the surge to rush OUT of the tank, not as much blast for the buck.

[BlueAbyss]

Hmm good point. I'm unsure of how it would look having the water level drop in the display... that said, combining a CSD and RCSD could produce some really cool effects I bet. I don't think I'll explore it though, because I don't want to buy a high flow air pump.

I'm leaning more and more heavily to using solenoids. I think that I could avoid potential problems with them if I just recognise that they have a limited life and replace them every so many thousand cycles. Part of the reason for this is that I am really considering building a controller using an Arduino. Mostly for my LED lights (got some heatsinks and fans yesterday!) but it has so much potential... temperature control, timing solenoids, etc. http://www.arduino.cc/ if anyone is interested... it will take some time but from what I've been reading it's actually pretty easy to program these things, and using one of these is right up the alley of someone who's into DIY stuff and is a little handy with a soldering iron.

It's CSD or solenoid... I'll be happier with the solenoid in the long run but the CSD will be cheaper. And won't require me to learn a programming language (which I'll likely be doing anyhow, so this point is really moot). IF I can find an online source for reef safe solenoids I'll experiment with them at least, anyone know of a source for something suitable? A 1" one would be great but I doubt if solenoids come in a size this big. I can use more than one :lol: