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naesco
05-31-2003, 01:48 AM
The major US boards are all posting insane reports of LFS and online stores offering NEMO packages which include a tang and clownfish in as low as a 8 gallon (US) tank.

Please post any stores involved in this or similar promotions as I will lay a formal complaint with the SPCA. Some may be stocking up on these fish and will sell them in these tiny tanks. Also let them know how you feel but don't get arrested.

Hopefully the SPCA will then pop by the store and while they are there check out what else might be happening.

I pray that this is just a US thing!

Aquattro
05-31-2003, 02:31 AM
Just curious, but have the SPCA started to consider fish animals? Are they really going to do anything? If so, where were they with the aqua-baby rage???

naesco
05-31-2003, 03:00 AM
I don't know Brad.
But, if the Nemo thing becomes a problem, I know who to contact.
IMO when a formal complaint is filed, they have the responsibility to investigate and they will. They have the authority to tell a LFS that in their (the SPCA's) opinion the fish are not adequately looked after.
Whether they lay charges is another thing. But, if they do, the courts tend to be tough on animal offenders.
Also the bad publicity could be very detrimental to the LFS

Beverly
05-31-2003, 03:00 AM
Please post any stores involved in this or similar promotions as I will lay a formal complaint with the SPCA.

Hah! I once lodged a complaint with the ESPCA about a local pet store that sold birds. Birds were just packed in way too small aviaries and there were many birds without feathers in several aviaries. It was disgusting the way these poor birds were warehoused :evil:

A few weeks after lodging the complaint, I stopped back into the store and talked to an employee I'd become friendly with. As far as she knew no SPCA constable ever showed up. I looked around and the birds were in as bad condition as before :evil: :evil:

If birds aren't considered animals by the SPCA, I really doubt fish are up their alleys either. At least whenever I've gone to the ESPCA to donate stuff, I've seen birds and/or bird cages there. But they aren't in the least way set up for fish, so abused fish probably don't exist for them.

Now that I'm on a rant about fish not being animals to professionals, vets have NO idea about fish. They know about cats, dogs, ferrets, large hookbilled birds (very little about finches), some reptiles, but NOT FISH :evil:

Except for these boards and a few good books on the market, we're basically on our own as fishkeepers. You can't trust the lfs for good information, vets are even more clueless than lfs employees, so it's d*mn good we're all here and we stick together and share the stuff that we know :cool:

Keep up the good work, everyone :smile:

<end of rant>

Jack
05-31-2003, 03:02 AM
I could feel it comming :confused:

saltcreep
05-31-2003, 03:02 AM
And the SPCA knows anything about fish and proper fish handling???

Beverly
05-31-2003, 03:10 AM
I could feel it comming :confused:

Heck, Jack, and you're even on the Island ....

Jack
05-31-2003, 03:12 AM
We don't have any local LFS that deal with saltwater :neutral:

Oh... but let me think. There's a Petcetera in Nanaimo! :confused:

:lol:

Aquattro
05-31-2003, 03:15 AM
Bev, there is a local vet very familiar with fish diseases....

I filed a complaint at the local SPCA about an Alaskan King Crab in a tiny little tank that didn't even have enough water to cover it. I was all but laughed out of the office!!
Agriculture Canada defines what is and isn't an animal for SPCA purposes, and crabs aren't animals. I didn't check on fish...

Jack
05-31-2003, 03:18 AM
Wierd how an animal is or isn't labled an animal by who knows who. Kind of a botched system. What's the point of an SPCA that only deals with half the bunch.

Quinn
05-31-2003, 04:02 AM
some of you may have seen the thread on RC about an LFS on the eastern seabord who's owner took off, leaving the doors off, and no one to take care of the fish. last i checked it had been a month and still nothing. i'm sure by that time everything was dead. the SPCA down there didn't want to have a thing to do with it. no one would even open the doors to allow local reefers to go in and clean up, feed, etc.

also i don't know how the SPCA would define this as cruelty to animals. it's less clear cut than a dog being kicked by its owner. how do you prove a 20 gallon is too small for a regal tang. and especially in alberta, i feel that the government authorities have a mandate that dictates business before little guy, which is the reason why my work, while breaking numerous safety laws, is never written up by the inspectors (and they do visit) - because we're contributing to the economy. i don't know if this would really apply to LFSs, but i still don't think anyone out there cares about fish in the long run other than aquarists (and only those of them/us who consider themselves to be educated).

here's to hoping that the lay idea that saltwater fish are near impossible to keep stands strong in the face of aggressive marketing.

naesco
05-31-2003, 04:03 AM
Wierd how an animal is or isn't labled an animal by who knows who. Kind of a botched system. What's the point of an SPCA that only deals with half the bunch.

Yeh, I dont understand it.
Let me know if there is any nemo games being played at any LFS

Delphinus
05-31-2003, 04:07 AM
I just can't beleive people. Are they not watching the movie?? The whole point of the story is that they go rescue "Nemo" from an aquarium.

I don't know whether I think this is sad, or sickening.

Samw
05-31-2003, 04:24 AM
Just curious, but have the SPCA started to consider fish animals? Are they really going to do anything? If so, where were they with the aqua-baby rage???

FYI. In university in 1990, a couple of friends and I each bought a siamese fighting fish with the intent to put them together to see what they would do without letting them kill each other of course.

Someone in the dorm overheard this and sent the SPCA after us. To my surprise, they came and confiscated one of the fish and then told that friend that the 1 gallon bowl was too small for the fish. Funniest thing. They don't think much of every pet shop that keep them in 1/4 cup of water but they'll consider 1 gallon of water to be cruel.

Fish farms house thousands of fish in tiny ponds. Those fish in nature swim thousands of miles yet no one seems to make a big stink that they are kept in tiny ponds packed so tightly that you can't see the bottom of the pond.

naesco
05-31-2003, 04:30 AM
I think it would be good publicity for the SPCA to raid a LFS which was unethically using Nemo to the detriment of the fish.
High profile gives more donations and Nemo will be high profile for a while.
What do you think?

Jack
05-31-2003, 04:39 AM
I'd hate to be a Hippo tang in any fish store anywhere :rolleyes: Not to mention clownfish :smile:

Beverly
05-31-2003, 01:55 PM
Wierd how an animal is or isn't labled an animal by who knows who. Kind of a botched system. What's the point of an SPCA that only deals with half the bunch.

I worked for the Alberta SPCA a number of years ago. They, as all SPCAs and humane societies, rely on public donations to operate, so if you're not a regular contributor to, or member of, your local humane society, you don't have a right to complain about what they do or don't do :rolleyes:

That being said, here is the The Animal Protection Act of Alberta:

http://www.albertaspca.org/APA.HTM

And here is the current Criminal Code of Canada deal with cruelty to animals:

http://www.albertaspca.org/criminalcode.htm

SPCA and humane society constables can only enforce the laws of the land. Those laws are only created or amended at the request of people like us. However, as it states at the top of the Criminal Code of Canada page, it's taken 20 years to make amendments to the CC of C with regard to cruelty to animals and that has only happened by continuous lobbying by humane societies across the country :eek:

Jack, I was reading our local newspaper the other week that someone had discovered that fish feel pain. So if the prevailing attitude has always been that that fish don't physically sense pain, how the heck can we be cruel to them!??!!!

Anyway, I think humans are such a screwed up species because it's us that create the need for SPCAs in the first place :evil:

ron101
05-31-2003, 05:48 PM
I think the unfortunate reality is that like personal safety, humanity comes first... Except of course if money or profits come into play.

So if you are an end consumer having purchased a betta for $2.50, the SPCA is more than happy to scrutinize and confiscate since you will have to buy a new one. On the other hand they wouldn't want to step on any retail stores' toes since they might lose profits and have grounds for litigation.

Beverly
05-31-2003, 06:09 PM
So if you are an end consumer having purchased a betta for $2.50, the SPCA is more than happy to scrutinize and confiscate since you will have to buy a new one.

I seriously doubt any local SPCA would ever do any such thing :rolleyes:

Samw
05-31-2003, 06:16 PM
So if you are an end consumer having purchased a betta for $2.50, the SPCA is more than happy to scrutinize and confiscate since you will have to buy a new one.

I seriously doubt any local SPCA would ever do any such thing :rolleyes:

Sorry Bev. It really did happen. They came to our dorm, asked for us by name and located my friend who was so shocked that he decided to just give the fish up. When I returned to the dorm and found out about it, I was shaking my head disbelieving that they would actually do that. Since I wasn't there, they didn't enter my room and so were unable to take mine.

Like I said, it was the funniest thing and its a story that I keep telling people over and over at parties when I want to talk about stupid events. It's just a fish and unless they were going to charge me in court, I wouldn't have let them take the fish if they did find me in the dorm that day.

Axial Corillite
05-31-2003, 06:20 PM
Sam, I think the only reason that the SPCA came down on you guys was because every university has some kind of animal care committee that they have to answer to for any experimentation that goes on there. The ACC has the power to shut down all experimental funding to the university if they get any word of animal cruelty and that includes fish. As an aquatics technician at UVic I have to regularly enforce ACC guidelines that pertain to fish health and what’s considered cruelty. So in some sectors fish welfare is considered. But I agree; I highly doubt that the SPCA would do any thing or care.
But to stir up the pot a bit all of us are guilty to a certain extent. I’m sure the fish that any of us own would rather be in the ocean, than in a glass box, IMHO.

naesco
05-31-2003, 07:47 PM
Good news.
www.petsolutions.com which ran the ad ontheir website, withdrew it from their website as a result of complaints from reefers.

You see, we can make a differance :biggrin:

StirCrazy
05-31-2003, 09:13 PM
I filed a complaint at the local SPCA about an Alaskan King Crab in a tiny little tank that didn't even have enough water to cover it. I was all but laughed out of the office!!


:eek: I told you it was only going to be a hour till I put it in a 20 quart container :wink:

Steve

Axial Corillite
05-31-2003, 10:48 PM
I re read my post and realized it didn’t make sense for what I was trying to say. :redface:
What I was trying to say was that probably the only reason the SPCA cared about a fighting fish was some heavy hitter in the ACC complained or new some one in the SPCA. Other wise the SPCA wouldn’t have given a crap. I’ve thought about making a complaint about a LFS and did some inquiring and was told there was nothing they could do. My only action was to not support them.

Son Of Skyline
05-31-2003, 10:54 PM
Just got back from J&L for some hermits and my girlfriend "had to have" a Nemo fish. The timing was right and my tank has room so I guess I can say I saved one Nemo from the fish bowl :)

Trevor Robertson
05-31-2003, 11:50 PM
Okay I am really sorry to those of you that really belive that you are providing a good home to you fish but if you belive that stop reading now...

I have just read all of your posts and I only have one thing to say, give me a break! I call tell you right now that there are going to be some people that are going to go out to there local LFS and purchase a 'nemo' fish because they saw the movie, this sucks as I am sure that the fish will not like it's time in the tanks and that it will die. but the point that I have to make is that you me and everyone that has a fish tank has done this already but we did not have to see a movie to do it. Am I saying that this is wrong, NO at least I hope not as I do keep fish and worse corals in my tank. All that I am saying is that no matter what we do to make out tanks nice and large and well kept it is not the ocean! We all keep tanks because we want to and we like how it looks, no one on this board is keeping a fish tank to make a better life for that fish or to make the world a better place. We have all purchased fish and had them die, that fish would not have had to die if we had not had to put it in our tank. We do this becuase we are human and we think that we can do what ever the heck we want to, and that is the same thing that is going to happen when people see this movie, the only good thing about the movie is that people are going to buy clowns that are mostly tank raised.

Well that is the end of my rant, sorry I had to get this off of my chest, now agree or disagree I told you not to read this post if you did think that you were truly keeping a better enviroment then what was there for that fish in the ocean so please don't flame me because if you think about it you know that I am correct.

I will end with this note:
I keep a fish tank, I try to provide it the best living space that I can but I know that it is not the ocean it is my basement.

Flames away... :onfire: :onfire: :onfire:

Samw
05-31-2003, 11:58 PM
I re read my post and realized it didn’t make sense for what I was trying to say. :redface:
What I was trying to say was that probably the only reason the SPCA cared about a fighting fish was some heavy hitter in the ACC complained or new some one in the SPCA. Other wise the SPCA wouldn’t have given a crap. I’ve thought about making a complaint about a LFS and did some inquiring and was told there was nothing they could do. My only action was to not support them.


Not sure what ACC is, but I know the person who called the SPCA. It was a female student that lived in our dorm. She told us that she called the SPCA and we were all thinking, yeah whatever. We didn't think the SPCA would actually show up. I'm sure it was an isolated incident and would agree that this is not something they would normally do thus explains my complete surprise when it happened.

Son Of Skyline
06-01-2003, 12:44 AM
Okay I am really sorry to those of you that really belive that you are providing a good home to you fish but if you belive that stop reading now...




Feeling sorry for me...like I really care what u think :lol:

I know your point of view, what you're trying to say...you think that if we really wanted to save the oceans we'd buy scuba gear instead of calcium reactors...blah blah blah...but lighten up. It's not like reefers are literally buying these fish thinking "Oh gosh, I have to rescue him from the evil 12 year old over there...come on Nemo...LET'S GET OUTTA HERE"...


Flame wars are awesome :cool:

Beverly
06-01-2003, 01:38 AM
All that I am saying is that no matter what we do to make out tanks nice and large and well kept it is not the ocean! We all keep tanks because we want to and we like how it looks, no one on this board is keeping a fish tank to make a better life for that fish or to make the world a better place. We have all purchased fish and had them die, that fish would not have had to die if we had not had to put it in our tank. We do this becuase we are human and we think that we can do what ever the heck we want to, and that is the same thing that is going to happen when people see this movie, the only good thing about the movie is that people are going to buy clowns that are mostly tank raised.

I'm with you, Trevor. My tank is not the ocean, and I keep fish because I CAN and because I WANT to. But I still feel somewhat guilty doing so :confused:

Aquattro
06-01-2003, 01:59 AM
Feeling sorry for me...like I really care what u think :lol:


That isn't what he said. He said sorry TO those of you he was about to potentially offend....

Flame wars ARE NOT awesome....they are silly.

Son Of Skyline
06-01-2003, 02:24 AM
True, true.

It's all good my reefing amigos...




Feeling sorry for me...like I really care what u think :lol:


That isn't what he said. He said sorry TO those of you he was about to potentially offend....

Flame wars ARE NOT awesome....they are silly.

Aquattro
06-01-2003, 02:48 AM
True, true.

It's all good my reefing amigos...


Peace and harmony to all... :razz:

Canadian Man
06-01-2003, 04:56 AM
Well I have read nothing about this post but I just saw the movie tonight and it's quite funny........The aquarium scenes are great :lol:

StirCrazy
06-01-2003, 05:31 AM
well just got home and I bought two Nemo's for my 25 gal.. I figured they would have more room than the 5 gal tanks the fish store was trying to sell them in.

Steve

Aquattro
06-01-2003, 05:48 AM
well just got home and I bought two Nemo's for my 25 gal..
Steve

Kid pressured you, huh?? :razz:

Quinn
06-01-2003, 06:58 AM
here are my thoughts on this issue:

i do feel bad for fish stuck in small aquariums. however, i feel worse about:
-the fact that north american, european or japanese reefers will pay $4000 so that a philipino will risk his life to catch us a fish (tack on the whole sweat shop thing here as well).
-the fact that many of us are probably happy to eat atlantic salmon, etc., which as far as i know are more threatened than percula (or is it ocellaris) clownfish.

we must take care to avoid a double standard.

i do not feel that fish have the mental capacity to understand their restricted living quarters, whether it is a 10 gallon or a 500 gallon. i think that the smartest among them, triggers, puffers, get to the point of recognizing the set of stimuli that lead to food, a la pavlov's dogs, but i don't think they suffer, nor do i think that they have the capacity to understand pain, regardless of whether they feel it or not (as far as i am concerned, there is a difference between an organism reacting instinctually to pain, and actually quantifying and therefore suffering from it).

i do not think our status as the most "intelligent" organism on the planet gives us the right to abuse other living things. however we are human, and as per the american constitution, the pursuit of pleasure is a big part of our existence. we could solve this nemo problem by banning saltwater aquaria, but what would that accomplish? we tread a fine line. but in the grand scheme of things, i feel this is unavoidable. who are we, as "responsible" reefers, to deny a nine year old a learning experience. perhaps, like me, ten years later, that child will look back and say, "gee, i guess putting fifteen (fluorescent dyed) fish in a five gallon aquarium was a bad thing", and gain something from it.

the above is just some ideas that popped into my head as i read over the previous posts. i don't think i agree with all my points, but it's food for thought, at least.

naesco
06-01-2003, 01:47 PM
here are my thoughts on this issue:

i do feel bad for fish stuck in small aquariums. however, i feel worse about:
-the fact that north american, european or japanese reefers will pay $4000 so that a philipino will risk his life to catch us a fish (tack on the whole sweat shop thing here as well).
-the fact that many of us are probably happy to eat atlantic salmon, etc., which as far as i know are more threatened than percula (or is it ocellaris) clownfish.

we must take care to avoid a double standard.

i do not feel that fish have the mental capacity to understand their restricted living quarters, whether it is a 10 gallon or a 500 gallon. i think that the smartest among them, triggers, puffers, get to the point of recognizing the set of stimuli that lead to food, a la pavlov's dogs, but i don't think they suffer, nor do i think that they have the capacity to understand pain, regardless of whether they feel it or not (as far as i am concerned, there is a difference between an organism reacting instinctually to pain, and actually quantifying and therefore suffering from it).

i do not think our status as the most "intelligent" organism on the planet gives us the right to abuse other living things. however we are human, and as per the american constitution, the pursuit of pleasure is a big part of our existence. we could solve this nemo problem by banning saltwater aquaria, but what would that accomplish? we tread a fine line. but in the grand scheme of things, i feel this is unavoidable. who are we, as "responsible" reefers, to deny a nine year old a learning experience. perhaps, like me, ten years later, that child will look back and say, "gee, i guess putting fifteen (fluorescent dyed) fish in a five gallon aquarium was a bad thing", and gain something from it.

the above is just some ideas that popped into my head as i read over the previous posts. i don't think i agree with all my points, but it's food for thought, at least.

Troll!

StirCrazy
06-01-2003, 02:25 PM
Troll!

:eek: hmmm.. :mrgreen:

Beverly
06-01-2003, 02:43 PM
here are my thoughts on this issue:


Troll!

:eek: :confused: :frown:

Everyone else gets to air their views and teevee doesn't?!??

naesco
06-01-2003, 03:14 PM
here are my thoughts on this issue:


Troll!

:eek: :confused: :frown:

Everyone else gets to air their views and teevee doesn't?!??
:wink:

Samw
06-01-2003, 05:38 PM
I can understand everyone's concern about the environment and the impact on our reefs and fish that our hobby has. How can we control and manage the hobby better so that people without the means to take care of marine fish don't all rush out and buy a fish based on a movie. (Besides raiding or harassing/threatening a store, which I don't agree with btw).

What about a permit/license idea? You already need a license to keep a dog (If you have a dog and didn't know that you need a license, you better go get one :lol: ). Why not for wild caught corals and fish as well? The enforcement comes at the time of purchase. The store requires you to show them your license before they'll sell you a wild caught coral or fish. The downside is probably that LFS business might go down and it could be costly for gov't to implement (Not sure why it would be costly though as they already do it for dogs). Drastic I know but if it is true that the ocean's fish and coral are near extinction at some point in the future, its a reasonable measure to implement now, and is a better alternative then a complete ban in the future.

naesco
06-01-2003, 11:14 PM
Checked out Richmond today.
No Nemo adverts but Big Al's has four tanks full of clowns. :cry:

Quinn
06-02-2003, 12:35 AM
sam the permit thing is something i've thought about in the past. personally i'd be all for it, although it would obviously drive prices up significantly, and possibly put some LFSs out of business.

the one consolation we have as far as clowns go, is that they reproduce easily in captivity, unlike tangs.

Delphinus
06-02-2003, 03:51 PM
the one consolation we have as far as clowns go, is that they reproduce easily in captivity, unlike tangs.

Not only that. Clownfish tend to have rather small territories. For a fish like a perc or an ocellaris, it's entirely possible that a reasonable sized territory will fit inside the confines of a small aquarium. For sure a 20g, more than likely a 10g, and I bet even a 5g could suffice for a time for a smaller clownfish if set up correctly.

But, a powder blue tang, on the other hand, ........

Lofus
06-06-2003, 06:28 PM
I would think that if you really wanted to make a point, contacting the media with a large petition would be more effective than the SPCA or animal rights group.

That being said, I think the goal is to make people think before they buy. Trevor is right, our tanks however hard we work to keep them clean are not the ocean. The only difference (hopefully) is that we thought about what we were getting into before we brought the fish home.