Toxic effects of wounding Caulerpa

[StirCrazy]

Well after a couple events that were unexplainable I spent the last week looking for a commen thread.

The events were 1, polyps on my digitata closing up for over a week, and two the loss of my Bangii.

The only commen factor was the large harvest of Caulerpa, digitat was closed up for a week after this and the next time I did it about 3 days after my bangii started having problems swimming and I put him down.

so after doing some reaserch I have came up with the following.

C. taxifolia and C. racemosa are the two most dangerious ones, C. taxifolia being a semertical feather Capulera and C. racemosa being the coment Grape caulerpa.

"Among the many secondary metabolites produced by algae belonging to the genus Caulerpa, caulerpenyne (CYN) is the most abundant cytotoxic sesquiterpenoid to be released."

"CYN, thought to be the most active substance, is involved either in
the chemical defense of the plant against herbivore pressure or within the framework of interspecific competition (antifeedant and antifouling effects)"

"A variety of toxic effects due to CYN have been demonstrated in several
organisms at different stages of their growth. The most harmful effect is on sea urchin eggs, which are killed by CYN (Lem´ee et al., 1993). This molecule, therefore, represents a potential danger to organisms"

"C. taxifolia and C. racemosa react upon wounding with rapid transformation of its main defensive metabolite caulerpenyne. The three acetate groups of this sesquiterpene are enzymatically cleaved within minutes after mechanical damage."

"The significant decline in abundance of amphipods and isopods would have ramifications along the food web"


Anyways this has opened a whole new can of worms for myself and to adjust for it I will be adding fresh carbon when I do harvests.. when I move this fall I will be scouring every chunk of rock I have in a attempt to remove it from my system.

Now I am also hopeing that other might have witnessed results like i have or maby others and have more to add to this descussion. maby some fool proof ways of removing this? To me a small rabit fish is looking better all the time :mrgreen:

Steve

[Jack]

Very interesting Steve although I havent had any ill effects. Makes me not want to harvest the refugium :wink:

I am stuck with this annoying grape caulerpa in my rock work. It pokes its ugly head out everywhere. I need to get a macro eater!

When I harvest caulerpa there is this clear sticky stuff that comes from it is this the CYN?

[StirCrazy]

when you rip a chunk under water it looks like it is "Leaking" a fluid out.. the "CYN" is part of that.

Steve

[Sushiman]

Get info! I'll keep the carbon handy... :n00b:

[Bartman]

Does it make any difference if you "rip" it out or "cut" it out? I usually use scissors to cut mine out (like a fish biting it off) and I've never noticed any fluid leaking out.

[Sushiman]

Well, I don't know if it the same with plants as it is with animals & humans but a ripping / tearing injury elongates the tissues as they are quite elastic & actually can help reduce fluid loss as they are stretched. A straight laceration doesn't do this, think of it like cutting a garden hose, quite a bit of fluid loss can occur.
Creepy little bits of knowledge from work... :eek:

[Sushiman]

although blunt scissors would create a compression injury & help seal it off, hmmm..... :painting:

[StirCrazy]

I get the leakage either way. I have tried snipping and ripping.

Steve

[zulu_principle]

Steve

Where is the quote from ?


Wendell

[Delphinus]

Now I am also hopeing that other might have witnessed results like i have or maby others and have more to add to this descussion. maby some fool proof ways of removing this? To me a small rabit fish is looking better all the time :mrgreen:


I'm with you on this one, I once considered a rabbitfish as a cure to my situation, but opted against it thinking that my tank is too small, now once again I'm considering it because I just can't keep up with pulling this stuff out. If something eats this stuff, then I want it to live in my tank for a while. I guess I'll just have to be prepared to deal with a growing fish. Either hope that a good home can be found when he gets too big, or be able to whine loud enough to be allowed to set up a bigger tank.

In general I don't really have a whole lot to add to your observations there, Steve. ... I've come to more or less the same conclusion. I'm not fully against keeping caulerpa in a refugium, but not keen on it in a main tank with lots of nooks and crannies that are a complete impossibility to access properly.

One other thing, it's been noted before than when pruning caulerpa, sometimes the entire colony crashes. Seems to not happen that often, but I think it does illustrate that there is "stuff" that gets released when it's pruned. Running carbon and polyfilter is probably a sage thing to if going to do some extensive pruning.

I'd really be keen on a eelgrass refugium, but since I don't have any of that, I'm more or less stuck with the caulerpa for now. I also grow some cyanaria (sp.?) - spaghetti algae, some sargassum, and some halimeda. Halimeda is kind of cool, but like caulerpa it does sporulate periodically. Don't know what risk of toxins or allelopathic inhibition each species has though -- I just live with the risk and hope that I'm doing enough to keep it under control.

[AJ_77]

I added a clump of razor caulerpa to my main display (yes, I know, big mistake) to help with nutrient export. Instead I got a green hair algae bloom, pretty much right away.

I removed the caulerpa recently, and the hair algae is receding. This is not the first time I have seen this.

Has anyone else seen this sort of connection :question:

[canadawest]

I harvest my grape caulerpa at least once per month for the past year and never have had any ill effects observed in my refugium or main display.

I usually pull a couple big handfulls out by hand, not sure how much I actually sever during the process as opposed to removing whole.

I'd have to suspect that a WHOLE LOT of caulerpa would have to be severed in order to produce enough toxins to cause problems severe enough to kill a fish.

I'd be looking elsewhere for the cause, as this just seems to me to be a bit of a stretch.

Just my $0.02

[StirCrazy]

I know the fish may seam like a streach but there are a couple other factore.. one it was old. and two every time I harvested it would act funny for a couple days.. so putting two and two togeather maybe its old age made it more suseptable to the toxins.. this is what I am getting at..

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Steve

Where is the quote from ?


Wendell

they are from dozzens of results on a search in yahoo.. it is amazing how much stuff has been written about this. ''Steve

[Michael]

I added a clump of razor caulerpa to my main display (yes, I know, big mistake) to help with nutrient export. Instead I got a green hair algae bloom, pretty much right away.

I removed the caulerpa recently, and the hair algae is receding. This is not the first time I have seen this.

Has anyone else seen this sort of connection :question:

I guess I am still a novice...Why is it bad to add caulerpa directly in the tank? Or is it only some type of caulerpa that is bad when put directly in the tank. I have grape caulerpa in my tank and am wondering now if that is a mistake.

Michael
always learning

[kari]

Since this chemical is "organic" could it be removed by heavy skimming? Just a dumb question since I don't understand plants yet somehow I can grow various Bonsai :redface: Bonsai/caulerpa somewhere in MY brain there is a conection :redface:

As far as your question regarding noticing similar things happening to tank inhabitants, I have one unsure point.
I harvest a good chuck of caulerpa monthly. Strangely, near the same time a Green Chromis started swimming as if it were blind. This fish has been in the tank since cycling 5 years ago and been through a move in January 1.5 years ago. I thought it was a SuperFish. I also put the fish to rest in the toilet in fear of an unexplained plague and seeing no hope in recovery. If there is a connection here with your observations, I have no idea and no data.

Maybe more frequent carbon changes and pruning could help in the so called problem. Yet none of my tanks in the past have done as good as the current one using caulerpa as a filtration method.

kari

[StirCrazy]

I guess I am still a novice...Why is it bad to add caulerpa directly in the tank? Or is it only some type of caulerpa that is bad when put directly in the tank. I have grape caulerpa in my tank and am wondering now if that is a mistake.

Michael
always learning

the problem with it in your main tank is it is vary hard to keep under control. I am at the point now whare I fear I am going to have to pull out all my rocks and scour them to remove it. In a sump enviorment you simpley grab and hand full and throw it out.. whare you need to use tweezers and such in the main tank.

Steve

[Jack]

the problem with it in your main tank is it is vary hard to keep under control. I am at the point now whare I fear I am going to have to pull out all my rocks and scour them to remove it

Steve, I feel yourr pain :razz: I am at the exact same point in my tank right now. :frown:


We did this to Lee's tank and now it's totally caulerpa free. Well worth the effort.. I think it's his turn to help me :lol:

Also, I don't think I would have caulerpa in my refugium either. It grows on all my rubble rock and into the sand. If i had a caulerpa i would just have it in a bare bottom 10-15 gal or partition a tank, DSB and rock on one side and caulerpa on the other. No mixing!

[Canadian]

Last year I wrote an essay for school on the effects of caulerpenyne, and did a lot of research. One of the surprising things was that the simple presence of caulerpa could prove toxic to a lot of organisms, both directly and indirectly. If you want some published papers to read through on the topic let me know and I'll dig up my citations.

[StirCrazy]

One of the surprising things was that the simple presence of caulerpa could prove toxic to a lot of organisms, both directly and indirectly. If you want some published papers to read through on the topic let me know and I'll dig up my citations.

Are you refering to the part whare they release toxins while they are small to discourage anything from overgrowing them then they stop as they get larger and concentrate at growing faster?

That would be great Andrew I would love to read more on this.

Steve

[Canadian]

Dummay, O., Pergent, G., Pergent-Martini, C., & Amade, P. 2002. Variations in
caulerpenyne contents in Caulerpa taxifolia and Caulerpa racemosa. Journal of Chemical Ecology 2: 343-352.

Jousson, O., Pawlowski, J., Zaninetti, L., Zechman, F.W., Dini, F., Guiseppe, D., Woodfields, R., Millar, A., & Meinesz, A. 2000. Invasive alga reaches California. Nature 408: 157.

Meinesz, A., Simberloff, D., & Quammen, D. 1999. Killer Algae. University of Chicago Press, Chicago.

Uchimura, M., Sandeaux, R., & Larroque, C. 1999. The enzymatic detoxifying system of a native Mediterranean scorpion fish is affected by Caulerpa taxifolia in its environment. Environmental Science & Technology 10: 1671-1674.

Wiedenmann, J., Baumstark, A., Pillen, T.L., Meinesz, A., & Vogel, W. 2001. DNA fingerprints of Caulerpa taxifolia provide evidence for the introduction of an aquarium strain into the Mediterranean Sea and its close relationship to an Australian population. Marine Biology 138: 229-234.

Williams, S.L., & Davis, C.A. 1996. Population genetic analyses of transplanted eelgrass (Zostera marina) bed reveal reduced genetic diversity in southern California. Restoration Ecology 4: 163-180.


Some of these may not be totally related to the topic at hand (some focus on morphology, hybridization, etc.)

[Jack]

Well, I'm renovating the tank tonight. I will be taking out all the rock piece by piece to remove the grape caulerpa. I just can't stand looking at it anymore. I will let you know if anything happens with the so called CYN because I don't usually run carbon at all. Maybe I should pick some up for the the tiny ( :lol: ) job tonight.

Ah well, I think of it this way: Now I get to play with the rock arrangment and get those two damsels out! I aquascaped my tank in sand storm didnt really see what I was doin anyways..