Multiple Anemones ?

[Buccaneer]

I saw a post on RC by Tony about multiple anemones in a tank ... there was a good discussion going but tank size did not come up regarding having more than one anemone ... I have a LTA and so far he is doing great but was wondering if I got a Rose or reterri at some point down the road if they could coexist ? ( tank is 300G ) ... appreciate everyones input

Cheers

[Canadian Man]

Hey Steve. I've seen a few situations very similar to the one your looking at. Mitch (carpenter's reef) at one point had, oh something like 12 anenome's in his 200ish gallon tank! they just kept splitting and splitting. He got rid of most of them as 12 is way out of hand but given the size of your tank I don't see you having a problem.

I don't keep them myself but I had a CONDI at one point so I'm not the anemonme expert by any means.

[Buccaneer]

Hey Jonathon ... thanks for the reply ... the splitting actually happens in nature with certain species quite often to create what looks like a massive anemone ( guess 12 in a 200 would look massive too LOL ) ... what I was more concerned with however is the " chemical warfare " that different species can engage in in a closed environment and in some instances kill each other ... Tony had mentioned on RC that 1 anemone per tank is all he would recommend but there were those that had kept more than 1 species apparently successfully ... just wondering if anyone is keeping more than 1 species right now and what type they are

Cheers

[tkhawaja]

What's an LTA? If you can give me some scientific names I can look them up and about compatibility.

[EmilyB]

I've kept my LTA and sebae together for years. First in a 72g and then in a 155g. I've never noticed any chemical warfare going on. These anemones do not move, however, and have therefore never violated each others space..... :mrgreen:

[Buccaneer]

Thats what I was looking for ... anecdotal evidence so to speak ( did not notice the 2 together in your tank Deb ... course there was WAY too much to see in both tanks :smile: )

Not planning anything yet but if a nice Rose became available I would like to try to keep both

Cheers

[Delphinus]

Mitch (carpenter's reef) at one point had, oh something like 12 anenome's in his 200ish gallon tank! they just kept splitting and splitting.

One thing to remember about that is that they are clones of each other.

Clonal anemones do not have any problems with clones of themselves. That's their strategy in nature -- they form a colony.

JBF16Falcon, for example, has an amazing tank full of some 60 to 80 rose BTA's. He can get away with this because they are all clones of each other. But, he cannot keep other anemones in this tank, and espescially not other BTA's (ie. green BTA or whatever). Again, this falls within their natural strategy: Since two BTA's will occupy exactly the same niche (i.e., exactly the same needs), it stands to reason that the competition for resources will the greatest among any two individuals, if they do not recognize each other as "allies." And let's face it, 60 against 1 is not exactly a fair fight.

The risk, in my opinion, is very hard to guage, if not impossible to prove OR disprove. The theory of diffuse competition is just that: a theory.

But I think it does stand to reason. Take, for example, the dimensions of your 300g tank, and imagine it superimposed upon any arbitrary tropical reef. Pretty small piece of a vast whole, right? Now let's take those same dimensions, and see how many hosting anemones you find within that space? You're lucky if you find one.

When I went looking for hosting anemone species in the wild, I considered myself lucky to find four stands in a whole day's worth of diving. I found a solitary BTA at about 10m depth, a colony of BTAs at about 1m depth, and a carpet at about 10m depth, and a ritteri at about 3m depth. The nearest two things I found were the solitary BTA and the clonal BTAs and they were easily 100m apart. I'm not saying these results are typical or indicative of anything concrete as my observations are hardly scientific, but I think it does illustrate that these animals are hardly "social" animals by any stretch. Conversely, you could not paddle 2 feet in any direction without seeing giant clams. And of course SPS all over each other.

I'm not saying you can't mix anemones in a tank. Sure, there are lots of examples out there of people doing just that, and not having problems. But the flip side of the coin is, how many times have we heard about someone buying a new anemone, because they already had one and it was doing well, but the new addition didn't make it? Why didn't it make it? If the conditions are/were seemingly ideal for the first one, does it not transitively extend to be ideal for the second one? There are just soooo many variables at play here, but why do we eliminate the possibility that perhaps the established anemone didn't take kindly to the insolent new arrival? And maybe since the new arrival was stressed from the collection/retail process (let's face it, it's a brutal process), it was susceptible to some kind of diffuse competition? How can we possibly quantify these things? If you can see their auras then great (yes ... someone did actually tell me she could see the auras of the anemones...) but for the rest of us we'll have to rely on something else.

But like I said, it's only a theory. And some anemones are not going to possess the same traits exactly, so mileage is going to vary. I don't know if this is a good example, but .... One dog may be a total sweetheart, the other may be agrressive ... and the difference may have nothing at all to do with the breed. I feel the same applies to anemones. Some species may be more apt to participate in some kind of unseen chemical warfare, while others may not. In EmilyB's example, she claims an LTA and a sebae have been good neighbours for years. But, remember, there are a million variables at play here. Who's to say that because neither are cloning anemones, that these species would participate in the first place? Or could the fact that she's religious about water changes every week or two, mitigate any kind of effect? Or could the fact that because Deb is meticulous about caring for her animals have an effect? I.e., if their needs are met to a T, perhaps there's no need for them to start any kind of aggression?

Personally, I don't think in a 300g tank you're likely to see aggression between two anemones. I've never had problems when a tank contained only two anemones. I did however, have problems when I had more than that. At one point I had three BTA clones in with my ritteri, and it went fine for a few months until suddenly the ritteri began a sudden, and steep decline. I nearly lost it. I couldn't figure out anything -- everything tested out OK. I finally as a last straw, pulled out the BTA's and not a word of a lie: the ritteri recovered within hours. Hours. I mean, it started looking better the next day, and was back to its normal self within a week. It's only anecdotal evidence, it proves nothing, but I think the point I'm trying to make is ... "what if ... ?"

At one point very early in my reef tank keeping days, I had a BTA, a sebae, and I decided to try a carpet. I put in the carpet, and the sebae suddenly closed up. Wouldn't open. The carpet started to not open. The carpet started to decline, as did the sebae. The carpet perished. Guess who looked better the next day?

It proves nothing. Nothing. But looking back at it now, it is enough for me to wonder about it some days. Three anemones in a 50g, what the hell was I thinking? the stuff I've seen in the four years since that day ... I'd never, never do anything so greedy like that ever again.

Believe what you want to... I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am only explaining what I believe, and why I believe it. Dealer may sell for less and your mileage may vary. :wink: BTW, I don't really want to dissuade anyone, but it should be pointed out ritteri's have the among the worst survival rates in captivity, second only to perhaps S. gigantea. Try one only if you're very serious about making it "numero uno" in the reef, and are willing to sacrifice everything else in case of conflict. James Wiseman, who although doesn't know it is my "ritteri mentor/hero" told me once, and I think this is sage advice to anyone else considering a ritteri: that "a ritteri should have a dedicated tank set up just for it. Nothing else, just the anemone."

[Quinn]

so tony is that your masters or doctoral thesis? :lol: :razz: a good read for sure though.

[Buccaneer]

Tony ... thanks for that ! ... it really does throw it up in the air but at the same time some serious food for thought ... what do you think is the key to a ritteri thriving in captivity besides what you have stated so far ?

Cheers

[Delphinus]

I think that the most important element is finding one that isn't too far gone by the time it's purchased. Which is a tough call because it's hard to tell, sometimes looks can be deceiving. (I don't claim any skill in this department ... I believe I just got "lucky".) Next, the ideal home for them is at the top of a coral bommie, where the currents will be maximized, and they will be as close to the light source that they can get. So.. lots of light, lots of water movement, and lots of food. Mysis seems to do quite well for them, at least mine loves it.

[Delphinus]

I think I should point out that I while I do believe there is some credibility to the theory of diffuse competition, I do also believe that the chances of it happening are in the minority, and also minimized by "good tank management practises." If the tank is healthy, and the anemones healthy, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to assume that even a low-level aggression if present, might just be cheerfully ignored and have no effect whatsoever.

I think it comes down to common sense -- if a tank is 'overcrowded' then we can just assume that there are risks associated with that. Whether it's just stress, or the potential for a tank crash, or whatever. If a tank is not overcrowded, managed carefully, regular water changes, or whatever ... that tank stands a reasonably better chance at "long term success" than a tank that is not carefully managed. Of course there are always exceptions to the rules, but in general I mean.

I'm not really trying to change anyone's opinions (not anymore anyways, I admit there was a time where I kinda did)! Just looking for answers to my own questions, and this is one of the things I do wonder about sometimes.

Would love to hear other people's thoughts on this topic if they have any.

[Buccaneer]

Tony ... I appreciate your views on this because there is no arguing with success :smile:

Cheers