Anyone Vodka Dosing???

[Rbacchiega]

After talking to a few of the people over at Greg's I was considering setting up a zeovit system. Then I got to reading on ReefCentral. I think I might just try some vodka. Literally. But should this only be run on SPS dominated tanks? Or can it be run on mixed reefs? Seems simple enough in dosing, and the pictures I've seen of before and afters are incredible...colour and growth out the wazoo (is that even a real word?)

Any thoughts?

[fkshiu]

Short answer: yes, it does work to varying degrees BUT there are downsides including big bacterial blooms and rapid tank crashes with overdosing. Its long term effects are not well understood although initial research could generate some concern:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3

[Doug]

Yep..:drinking:


Vodka belongs in only one place. :smile: Actually I have never tried it but have read several of the threads.

[Rbacchiega]

That's what I've read as well, which is why I'd like to get some other people's opinions on it first. The one thread was really good in that it suggests continual testing of levels and once you achieve optimal levels it suggests proper maintenance levels of dosing.

Something to do further research on for sure though

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I would just go safe and go with ZEOvit. Actually that is what I did. The problem for me with uncontrolled carbon dosing like vodka is that you have no idea what bacterial strains you are feeding. It can be a risk. As said above, tank crashes even.

I guess in my opinion, why do it when ZEOvit does it better and safer? I guess for someone who can't afford ZEO, then maybe but even then...maybe you should just stock your tank lighter and stick within your budget...and by "you" I don't actually mean YOU but thats just what I would tell someone.

BTW, I did try Vodka dosing a while back and killed off half my corals. Some recovered, some did not. I started with a dose of .5 ml with a water volume of about 140G and still had problems. So even when going slow, bad things can happen. Its just way too unknown for me personally.

EDIT: Some of my fish developed a weird bacterial infection too after two weeks of vodka dosing. It did go away as soon as I stopped though. That also turned me off of it.

[Delphinus]

The folks who do a combination of vodka, sugar and vinegar are (IMO) probably getting the more balance out of it, but to me is it doesn't really come with a great set of instructions and vendor support that say Zeo does.

Taylor Aquatics NO3 Destroyer is sort of like that too, and comes with dosing instructions (which includes eventual weaning of your tank off it), which is something you may want to consider if you find you are battling high nutrients but don't want to commit to a full Zeo/UL system. (I use this stuff, works awesome).

I did try sugar dosing for a while and indeed it does pull NO3 down like crazy but it too can be overdosed creating a bacterial bloom (cloudy water).

The one thing I really liked about Zeo was how polished clear my water was when using it. Night and day difference before and after (on "day 2", not a word of a lie, I was wondering what was wrong with my lights because they were so much brighter all of a sudden. I thought they were about to explode or something they were so much brighter, it seemd. Then it occured to me why they seemed brighter, it wasn't the lights, it was the water).

But there are many tanks out there that don't do Zeo or sugar or vodka or whatever, Zeo alone doesn't make or break. Anyhow just some food for thought.

[Rbacchiega]

that's what I'm talkin bout!

Thanks for the first hand experience there GSP. I don't know if I will try either method for the time being. I'm getting good polyp extension on the SPS I have in the tank currently and the LPS and zoas are doing well also.

I might, however, consider going Zeovit on the bedroom tank when it's up and running....

[o.c.d.]

I've dosed with vodka to lower nitrate and it worked for me but I started very small doses an added a extra skimmer while dosing. I have used nitrate destroyer it also works IMO and many others it is Vodka just watered down with some garlic added maybe a dash of sugar, o ya and instructions. I did ask Tailored Aquatics what the difference was and they replied ".The whole Tailored Aquatics line gives very affordable alternatives for people not willing to take the risk of miss dosing on any kind of do it yourself recipes. Tailored Aquatics Nitrate Destroyer has been tested and formulated under many various conditions over the past few years. Nitrate Destroyer’s carbon sources not only reduce Nitrates and phosphates, but also enhances natural coral coloration, stimulates polyp extension and feeding, leading to healthier specimens. Tailored Aquatics Nitrate destroyer is extremely safe and provides clear directions taking the guesswork out of the dosing process.
thanks for reading,"
Brad
I'm not bashing this vendor just think vodka is a lot cheaper

[phillybean]

Vodka is working for me. 0 Nitrates, 0 phosphates and staying there. Allows me to over feed. Corals look great, water is clear and less film algae.

I dose very little (2 ml/day) and it works great. Ive thought about going full Zeo and I might in the future, but for now, Vodka works :)

I was doing Vodka + Sugar but got massive Diatoms when I added Sugar.

[pterfloth]

I have been dosing vodka for 3 months now because I shudder at the cost of Zeovit or UltraLith. I never had nitrates over 5 ppm but my phosphates were hard to keep below 0.1 ppm. I slowly increased my Vodka in weekly increments to the present 2.5 ml/day. I never had any bacterial blooms and my nitrates are now unreadable. The phosphates never came down though. In the last week I changed out the Rowaphos in my TLF reactor and the phosphates came down immediately to 0.03 ppm (colorimeter).

I have increased feeding, fish and corals, of my mixed reef tank three-fold, since dosing vodka and plan to keep it up unless conditions change. Everything is growing like mad. SPS frags double or more in size every month, LPS and softies doing great. Very happy with PE and colors.

[Rbacchiega]

pterfloth...can I see some pics of your tank??

[wisesam]

I just starting dosing vodka less than a week ago.
So far not seeing any particularly good or bad.
I'll post my progress as it goes.

[Sebae again]

pterfloth what brand of vodka are you using and how did the amount /time frame develop into the present dosing schedule? Thanks in advance.

[pterfloth]

Here are a couple of shots from my tank. They don't do the tank justice. Wish I had a macro lenses to really show the PE.

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo171/pterfloth/P1291050.jpg
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo171/pterfloth/P1271043.jpg

I used the guidelines here to gradually increase the dosage:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

I got in to the whole vodka thing after I read this http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php Reef Keeping tank of the month.

Glad to hear from others about their experiences.

[Sebae again]

Your tank looks great!

[fencer]

I was using vodlka dosing at a rate of 10ml / 100 gal over 8hrs. You will get a small bloom of bacteria but if you work the dosing up slowly you can avoid a full scale bacterial overload. I had to stop because of the ultralith field trial. I felt it does work as long as you supplment with other additives. There has been talk about vodlka being feed all types of bacteria in the tank as bad. Not so....even in zeo and ultra systems their food supplement still feeds the other bacteria. I think to have a mono strain of bacteria is very hard to achieve in a reef tank and if you did and found some way of nuking the strain your tank would be toast. Anyways the cost of dosing works out to be as expensive as zeo or ultra additives. In fact the cheapest vodlka I could buy was 20.00 or so. When you add together the other supplements you will find the true cost of dosing. I would consider trying vingear dosing instead if price is a problem. Both zeo and ultra have a lot to offer in the way of a systematic regimen to keeping SPS's healthy

[o.c.d.]

"I used the guidelines here to gradually increase the dosage:"
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php
This article provided by pterfloth, are the instructions for dosing vodka anyone that is even thinking of dosing should read and follow. It seems long but worth the read even a reread. I think I've read it 5x now.

[Drock169]

I'm dosing VSV on my 125, at 9ml now, and have never had a bacteria bloom.

[Rbacchiega]

I'm dosing VSV on my 125, at 9ml now, and have never had a bacteria bloom.

what ratio of each are you using? (I'm assuming vsv means vodka sugar vinegar)

[NAS]

Im intersted in hearin the dosin info. This is the first I have heard of the Vodca thing......

[Rbacchiega]

I think I might try the vodka/sugar/vinegar dosing method (or a combination of which) on the 90 gallon mixed reef once everything is in place and then try the zeovit method on the 50 gallon bedroom tank...and do a comparison.

[BCOrchidGuy]

Interesting, but if you have to ween your tank later, do you also have to take it to Alcoholic Aquariums Anonymous?

Just kidding, there is always someone with some idea that seems goofy but it works, vodka??

One thing I've always thought is that a system you believe in works for you. Placebo effect maybe, who knows but if you like the idea of something it will amaze you with how well it works. That being said, I don't mean that everything is a gimmick, vodka dosing may be the greatest thing ever, Zeovit perhaps. During the 80s when I had my first salt tank I was told to clean (strip) the filters a couple times a month and change most of the water at least once a month. Now we have Jaubert style, we have Plenums, refugiums, the list goes on and on. We've come a long way, it will be interesting to see how all this stuff holds up over the next twenty five years.

Douglas

[Rbacchiega]

I couldn't agree more, Douglas (in terms of how far the hobby as come in the last 10 years even)

Very interesting idea about a sort of placebo effect though. Never really thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I'd imagine that if you go into a zeovit system with nothing but successful threads that you've read, you'll think it's the greatest thing ever. That's why I'm following GSP's zeovit thread....The whole cyano thing is a real turn off and I'm wondering if there would be a similar outbreak with vodka? Definately something to think about and I think if we have two tanks being run by the same person (moi for example) each utilizing two different systems (one zeo, one vodka) and a closely followed thread (weekly updates perhaps?) it would be a good way for people to compare...

[Captainhemo]

I couldn't agree more, Douglas (in terms of how far the hobby as come in the last 10 years even)
Definately something to think about and I think if we have two tanks being run by the same person (moi for example) each utilizing two different systems (one zeo, one vodka) and a closely followed thread (weekly updates perhaps?) it would be a good way for people to compare...

Hmm, better set up a 3rd for a control :)

[Rbacchiega]

.....don't tempt me....

[BCOrchidGuy]

Ahem, YOU should do one that's totally SPS, one that's Softies and one that's a mix... Do vodka on the first three then set up three more and do Zeovit... Perhaps Ultralith should be looked at as well.

The reason I think YOU should do it is because I'd end up homeless, chances are you'd have a better chance than I would.

Douglas

[Rbacchiega]

Ahem, YOU should do one that's totally SPS, one that's Softies and one that's a mix... Do vodka on the first three then set up three more and do Zeovit... Perhaps Ultralith should be looked at as well.

The reason I think YOU should do it is because I'd end up homeless, chances are you'd have a better chance than I would.

Douglas

And I"ll be right with you after trying to explain to the other half why we need 6 more tanks

[Pan]

I would just go safe and go with ZEOvit. Actually that is what I did. The problem for me with uncontrolled carbon dosing like vodka is that you have no idea what bacterial strains you are feeding. It can be a risk. As said above, tank crashes even.

I guess in my opinion, why do it when ZEOvit does it better and safer? I guess for someone who can't afford ZEO, then maybe but even then...maybe you should just stock your tank lighter and stick within your budget...and by "you" I don't actually mean YOU but thats just what I would tell someone.

BTW, I did try Vodka dosing a while back and killed off half my corals. Some recovered, some did not. I started with a dose of .5 ml with a water volume of about 140G and still had problems. So even when going slow, bad things can happen. Its just way too unknown for me personally.

EDIT: Some of my fish developed a weird bacterial infection too after two weeks of vodka dosing. It did go away as soon as I stopped though. That also turned me off of it.
My Zeo smells like vodka and vinegar...:)

[o.c.d.]

Placebo no, chemistry Yes. It sounds funny yes but really it is just a carbon source so is the sugar and many more. Vodka being distilled 3 times make it a very pure and concentrated source. You don't want the vodka with a fruity flavor. Like I said many different sources, Vodka being readily available and so pure makes it ideal (and cheap). If you do try to test cool but take into effect the skimming very important.

[BCOrchidGuy]

One thing for sure about Zeo, you don't just dump it in once or twice a month and sit back and watch the whole show. It forces people to do daily maintenance, 3 drops of this twice a week, 3 of that daily, clean the Vits twice a day, do this do that. I figure if people keep up the routine it's going to work, which is a good thing but I can't help but wonder if they did the same amount of maintenance with out the 3 drops yadda yadda yadda would their tanks look similar? That being said, I'm using sponge power and wow am I seeing a lot of stuff growing on the rocks, tunicates galore, same rock I had before but more stuff growing. Aptasia seems to like it as well though.

Douglas

[Rbacchiega]

I've been dosing Vodka for just over a week and I have noticed more polyp extension. BUT I also went to bare bottom a week ago as well and upped the flow. So it could be a number of things. No3 and Po4 are down to nearly undetectable, so I know I'll be cutting my dosage in half soon.

But I have to agree with Douglas here. Because I dose vodka daily it forces me to be a little more critical of the tank. Which is great. I've noticed white puffy qtip looking things on some of the rockwork yesterday before I went to bed and am now trying to figure out what the hell they are and if they're dangerous.

Anyways, I'm pretty happy with the way my tank is looking. Can't wait for things to start growing in...

[fmelindy]

I'm dosing vodka right now on a 29 gallon tank (I'm not in permanent accomodations right now so that's the best I can do!), but I've also previously dosed it on a 90 gallon, a 125 gallon, and a nano (can't remember the volume). Right now I'm using 1 ml a day in the 29 gallon. NO3 0 and PO4 0. No bacterial blooms, no tank crashes, excellent PE, good growth. Right now my 29 gallon is dominated by SPS, but the previous tanks were mixtures of SPS, LPS and softies. No problems either way. Oh, and those puffy things you're seeing are likely q-tip sponges, you'll see a lot more filter-feeder type things in your tank growing out of the live rock when you dose a carbon source, in my experience. I have nothing but good things to say about carbon dosing. I've also used zeo in the past with similar results. It's a good product as well.

[BCOrchidGuy]

One nice thing about trying vodka dosing is I can say to the girlfriend, "but honey I have to make sure it hasn't gone bad" One for the aquarium, a few for me...

[Rbacchiega]

1mL on a 29?!?!? I'm only dosing 1.3mL on my 90...going by what the thread/article on RC suggested. Herm Maybe I should change that.

Q-tip Sponges....should I be removing them from the base of the corals? They are kind of ugly...

[Rbacchiega]

One nice thing about trying vodka dosing is I can say to the girlfriend, "but honey I have to make sure it hasn't gone bad" One for the aquarium, a few for me...

LOL Now if only the tank needed Jack Daniels. I'd be all over that!

[fmelindy]

hmmmmm..... yeah, maybe that is a bit much.... I haven't had any problems so far but I think I'll cut back before I have a different story to post! I just couldn't remember how much I used to dose when I was dosing it last, it was a while ago!

[fmelindy]

if they are q-tip sponges, then they are of no concern except for appearance of course! Do you have a pic, so we can verify that's what they are?

[Rbacchiega]

I did some fancy googling and yep, they are q-tip sponges. I think later today when I do a water change on the tank I'll get rid of as many of I can. I don't care if they are filter feeders, they're fugly.

[marie]

I did some fancy googling and yep, they are q-tip sponges. I think later today when I do a water change on the tank I'll get rid of as many of I can. I don't care if they are filter feeders, they're fugly.

An angel should have those things cleaned up in no time :mrgreen:

[Rbacchiega]

I'm pretty much stocked in terms of fish. I want more corals! Stock in the 90 is:

- 1 Kole Tang
- 1 Foxface
- 1 Copper Banded Butterfly (who I've seen pick at the sponges)
- 1 Ember Blenny
- 1 Male Mandarin
- 1 Sandsifter (Orange Diamond) Goby
- 2 Cardinals (one bangaii and one pajama)

And before anyone says anything, levels are all where they should be, all fish are eating and there is no agression. The tang, foxface and butterfly seem to be best buds.

[e46er]

ok everyone here that doeses vodka seems to do it in a tank that is full of corals my tank just has snails in it for now as fish are in QT and i did a 72 hr blackout and a 50G wc and nitrates are 50 ppm would dosing vodka help my situation ive read the articles but it doesnt ever mention any tanks with just high nitrates and no corals...........

[High tide]

I went to MACNA in Atlanta last September and Eric Borneman did a talk about coral nutrition, during his talk he touched on vodka dosing a little. He recommended against it and said it can lead to coral mortality and provide conditions where pathogens can thrive. He went on to saying the ramifications of long term dosing are risky and not fully understood, experienced reefers have had mysterious disease outbreaks that were devastating. Maybe vodka is best left as a drink instead of a quick and easy cure-all.

[Rbacchiega]

Interesting.

Did he mention anything else in terms of ways to keep phosphates/nitrates undetectable but maintain coral growth/colour? Or did he just suggest to run a carbon reactor? What did he reccomend dosing, if anything?

[High tide]

Interesting.

Did he mention anything else in terms of ways to keep phosphates/nitrates undetectable but maintain coral growth/colour? Or did he just suggest to run a carbon reactor? What did he reccomend dosing, if anything?

No, this talk was about coral nutrition in the wild and I forgot what initiated it (probably a question), but I think he wanted to express his view while it was relevant. It's hard to retain everything I learned because MACNA was 3 solid days of cramming talks in, during, and right after, other talks...exhausting but extremely interesting.

[RuGlu6]

I did but stopped because there was no good results in hair algae reduction.
Now i am on Fauna Marine phosfate reducing clay and red Hair Algae is 99% gone !
much happier now!

[Rbacchiega]

I did but stopped because there was no good results in hair algae reduction.
Now i am on Fauna Marine phosfate reducing clay and red Hair Algae is 99% gone !
much happier now!

What about overall coral colour?

[Treebeard]

I have also been thinking about this, and decided to give it a try on a trial basis. I understand that some people have had tank crashes, but who is to say that the crash was caused by the vodka? Surely other people have had tank crashes and were not dosing anything?

[pterfloth]

After 4 months of vodka dosing I have decided to try the UltraLITH/Fauna Marin regime instead. I did not have a bacterial bloom with vodka but I still required Rowaphos to keep my phosphates down and still had to clean my glass daily. I also had some persistent cyano on my sand bed, appearance of hair algae and lately some bacterial? stringers. I have great acro and polli colors and growth but upgrading from 2x250w MH to 2x400w MH seems to have had much more of a positive effect on coloration than the vodka ever did.

Rather than temp fate I have decided to try another approach. It is obviously much more expensive (!) and I will be monitoring the results closely.

[emerald crab]

Does it have to be vodka or I can use Jack Daniels?

[Rbacchiega]

Does it have to be vodka or I can use Jack Daniels?

I would never waste beautiful, lovely, Jack Daniels on tank LOL

No, it needs to be vodka

[Mrfish55]

Does it have to be vodka or I can use Jack Daniels?

You can use the Jack but it does not go into your tank, you simply consume enough of it untill you are happy with the way the tank looks, then drink that much each day to maintain the results. :biggrin:

[subman]

You can use the Jack but it does not go into your tank, you simply consume enough of it untill you are happy with the way the tank looks, then drink that much each day to maintain the results. :biggrin:

You may have to increase amounts over time to maintain happiness!:wink:

[e46er]

You may have to increase amounts over time to maintain happiness!:wink:

you guys have a good attitude!!

[emerald crab]

Well, looks like I'll have to get some vodka for my tank, and keep the good old Jack Daniels for the tank owner.

[ocean diver]

I have been thinking about Vodka dosing and this is the article I have read that has had the best instruction and I a passing it on to you guys to see what you think of it, please let me know.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

Mark