Reef - Ich - Organicure - Fallow Tank - Aaaaargh ! ? ! ? ! ?

[VFX]

After running my reef for a year without any signs of ich, I did a little bit of aquascaping & disturbed the sand bed. I always QT everything before it goes in my tank. Well, everything except for the LR which I've picked up from 5 fellow reefers & 2 different LFS.

Anyway a few hours after I finished, my fish got ich :(

I removed everyone & put them in my QT tank & started treating it with some Organicure & a week or so later signs of ich are virtually gone from the fish.

How long do I need to leave my reef tank fallow for to make sure the Ich dies off completely? I've read & heard anything from 6 to 12 weeks.

Not a problem normally but I don't really want to keep butterfly fish in a 10g QT tank for 12 weeks!

I have set up a 15g for my frogfish but I'm guessing that has ich too as the LR & sand was from my reef.

Organicure says it's safe for fish, crabs & shrimp. Should I risk using it in my reef or in my frogfish tank (contains some LPS, gorgs & clams)?

It also says it contains 1.25% copper & 17% formaldehyde, so it'll probably kill my corals, clams, pods, worms, starfish etc. ?

Oh & to anyone running UV. This is a good example of it being useless against ich that's not already in the water column.

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[naesco]

I would not use a product containing formaldehyde or copper in a reef tank.
I would observe but not treat the frogfish.
Can you get garlic extract into its food? If so, do so.

[VFX]

I would observe but not treat the frogfish..

So don't treat even if he starts showing signs of Ich?

I could get some garlic extreme into his feeder shrimp tank & also soak the feeder shrimp food in garlic too.

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[naesco]

So don't treat even if he starts showing signs of Ich?

I could get some garlic extreme into his feeder shrimp tank & also soak the feeder shrimp food in garlic too.

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Yes, don't treat. There are some fish like mandarins (and I believe frogfish) that don't have typical scale exterior and meds harm them.
Use garlic extract whether you see the ich or not and add selcon if you can as well.

[VFX]

Yes, don't treat. There are some fish like mandarins (and I believe frogfish) that don't have typical scale exterior and meds harm them.
Use garlic extract whether you see the ich or not and add selcon if you can as well.

I'll enhance his food & fingers crossed he'll not succumb to ich.

Meanwhile, how long shall I leave my reef fish free?

12 weeks seems a lot to bare. In that scenario I might just break it down, sanitise everything, cook the rock for a few months & get rid of the rest.

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[albert_dao]

Garlic is a waste of time. Observed recoveries based on its use are annecdotal at best. Allicin, the active enzyme in garlic, is wildly unstable and will rapidly decompose once formed.

Stick with known macrophage stimulants such as beta glucans and lipopolysaccharides.

Peace

[naesco]

Garlic is a waste of time. Observed recoveries based on its use are annecdotal at best. Allicin, the active enzyme in garlic, is wildly unstable and will rapidly decompose once formed.

Stick with known macrophage stimulants such as beta glucans and lipopolysaccharides.

Peace

Really, I have been keeping fish for 18 years and during that time had some pretty severe ich infestations. In every case but one, the ich cleared without any loss of fish.
But, of course this is merely an anecdotal comment at best.

WTF are beta glucans and lipopolysaccarides?

[Trigger Man]

For Ick I like No Sick fish Ick remover, it lists as reef safe and I've used it a few times in my display tank when introducing a new fish that got ick and it has worked every time, with the best thing being that the treated fish have never gotten ick again, even when a new fish with ick was introduced. My snails, crabs, pods also showed no adverse effects.

[marie]

Really, I have been keeping fish for 18 years and during that time had some pretty severe ich infestations. In every case but one, the ich cleared without any loss of fish.
But, of course this is merely an anecdotal comment at best.

WTF are beta glucans and lipopolysaccarides?

Beta glucans are an immune booster that can be bought at health food stores. The beta glucans that come from the cell walls of brewers and bakers yeast are the best but you can get them from some cereal grains like oats.

Unless your prepared to crush your own garlic and feed immediately the health benefits are limited. I would suspect most of your fish would of recovered from ich even if you hadn't fed garlic :mrgreen:

[naesco]

Beta glucans are an immune booster that can be bought at health food stores. The beta glucans that are made from the cell walls of brewers and bakers yeast are the best but you can get them made from some cereal grains like oats.

Unless your prepared to crush your own garlic and feed immediately the health benefits are limited. I would suspect most of your fish would of recovered from ich even if you hadn't fed garlic :mrgreen:

Thanks for the info.
On a few occasions the tank had a fairly mild ich infection and your comment that they would have recovered anyway is possible.
But, I have had very serious ich infections that in the past, without intervention killed the fish.
By using garlic extract (garlic extreme.) the ich went away after a few weeks
I would like to see a scientific test done with ich and garlic. I would do it myself but would properly be accused of bias. Until than each to their own I guess. Oats versus garlic, ha ha

[marie]

Well as I said the glucans that come from yeast are the best so it might be more accurate to say bread versus garlic :razz:

[naesco]

Well as I said the glucans that come from yeast are the best so it might be more accurate to say bread versus garlic :razz:

How about garlic bread than!

[VFX]

Albert - funny that the shorthand for lipopolysaccharides is LPS, was that an intentional pun? :mrgreen:

Anyway, I guess the cure for my problems is to feed garlic bread to my fish or to use No Sick Fish?

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[Trigger Man]

I would say if you are patient try the garlic, but if you want it gone typically in less then 7 days use No Sick Fish. I tryed the garlic method when I put in my sohal and my kole was picking on it so it got ick. Almost 2 weeks later it still had the ick (so due to my lack of patience), so I went out and bought some more NSF Ick remover and 3 days later it was all cleared up and the sohal has not shown any specks since then.

[wickedfrags]

Click here for a good read about marine ick (http://www.txinstall.com/ich/ich.htm)

Dispells some of the common myths IMO.

[naesco]

Click here for a good read about marine ick (http://www.txinstall.com/ich/ich.htm)

Dispells some of the common myths IMO.

Who is the author of this?

[wickedfrags]

Not really sure - I had this as a bookmark from years ago. Seems as though the homepage associated with the site no longer relates to reefs.

Who is the author of this?

[NAS]

Going out on a limb here...

Ich is a stress related disease usually if there is no stress the Ich is not infective (actively) which is why often when you introduce a newcomer to the tanke the newbie gets it, while the rest do not.

The stress causes here is obvious. One the fish get settled down from dosin then put them back in the tank. It takes 5 days for ich to fully go though it's life cycle. So, if there was no futher fish in the tank that were ill (with ich) It should be cycled throug for the most part.

But your fish back in the main tank. But before you do, check your nitrates and pH to see if things are screwed up.

[VFX]

NAS - The parameters are all good but I'm not about to put any of my fish back into my reef. It's just not worth it until I understand basics of the bio-science behind it all.

Treating already infected fish aside (not the main issue as the fish are healthy & are getting over it) these following points reflect my original question about how long it takes a fish-less reef tank to 'cycle' through it's ich infestation.

4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days BUT can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research.

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.


Do I wait 7 days? 60 days? 11 months???

This point, under Treatments, is what I referring to in letting the tank go fallow.

10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success.

Points 14 & 10 above seem to contradict each other, much like other reports & papers I've seen in researching Ich.

Regards No Sick Fish reef safe Ick Treatment...

6. No known ‘reef-safe’ remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It’s easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the ‘reef-safe’ remedy but they don’t because. . .

3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. Untrue. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it will kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen.

So where does that leave me?

Back to square one. Leaving my reef tank fishless & question marks over how long to do it for.

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[Alberta-newb]

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.


10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success.

Points 14 & 10 above seem to contradict each other, much like other reports & papers I've seen in researching Ich.

So where does that leave me?

Back to square one. Leaving my reef tank fishless & question marks over how long to do it for.

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My understanding of the two referenced points:

For point # 14, An existing tank with fish (hosts) will be ich free after about 11 months as long as no new strains of ich are introduced (ie. new fish, corals or outside sources of SW) This is believed to occur through a mutation of the parasite itself, it basically becomes so "inbred" it can no longer survive.

Point #10 refers to a fallow tank with no fish (no hosts for the ich parasite), which after around 8 weeks without a host the parasite can no longer survive.

Since my display tank has ich already (all the fish came through fine) and I don't want to quarantine them all of them for 2 months, I hope to go through 11 months without new additions to "cure" the ich . I won't be adding any fish but there are still some corals and inverts I would like to add so the clock hasn't started yet.

[0sprey]

for point # 14, an existing tank with fish (hosts) will be ich free after about 11 months as long as no new strains of ich are introduced (ie. New fish, corals or outside sources of sw) this is believed to occur through a mutation of the parasite itself, it basically becomes so "inbred" it can no longer survive.

Point #10 refers to a fallow tank with no fish (no hosts for the ich parasite), which after around 8 weeks without a host the parasite can no longer survive.
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