I hate my tank!

[jslaney]

Sorry this is a bit of vent with a few questions at the end.

First the specs:
-72 gallon with a 20 gallon sump
-Single strip of Power Compact Fluorescents (New Bulbs)
-Vertex 100 Skimmer.
-Approx 70 lbs of dead rock and 30 lbs of live rock added 2 months ago.
-Shallow sand bed.
-Specific Grav = 1.026
-Nitrates < 10 ppm
-PH = 8.3
-Phosphate < 0.2 ppm
-Alk = 10 dkh
-Calcium = 675 ppm

Second the history
-Tank started up 3 months ago.
-Dead and live rock added 2 months ago. Live rock added to seed dead rock. Dead rock from bulk reef supply.
-10 scarlet hermits added 1.5 months ago (doing great).
-2 weeks ago skimmer added. prior to this it was a skimmerless tank.
-Water top ups performed using tap water that is let out for a minimum of 24 hrs.
- I have changed 20 % of the water twice since beginning

Third the problems.
-After 3 months I would have hoped for lavish growth of Coraline with tons of pods and small starfish infesting every nook and cranny. What I have instead is Tons of cyano growth and very few small pods on the glass (barely visible).
-I have added snails on 2 separate occasions and they shrink up immediately upon entering my water and die after a couple days.
-I feel like a failure as I cant even keep snails alive. My hermits are fine so I would figure anything really bad would kill them as well.
-I am scared to add anything else in case they die as well. My parameters say everything is fine but I am not sure.


Fourth my Caveat.
-I appreciate that people have lost thousands of dollars in corals in one night so I should really not be complaining about not being able to keep snails but to a novice its really frustrating. I jsut want my tank to look nice like the ones I see in the forum. Instead it looks like really expenisive rock covered in Brown sludge.

Fifth my questions
-Any ideas why snails die so easily in my tank?
-Any ideas on how I can get the coraline and pods growing in my tank?
-I have not been testing for ammonia or nitrites as the tank has been running for so long. Should I be? Is there anything else I am missing.
-I never rinsed the dead rock when I got it. Is it possible that they treated it with something harmful that is still in my tank? It looked awfully bleached when I first got it.

Sixth, thanks for listening to my whining and thanks to anyone that can answer.

Sincerely,

Jon

[leezard]

Hi Jon,

As I am also a novice, I just wanted to offer the only small piece of advice I could:

Love your tank, and it will love you back.

:)

Good luck. I'm sure it will work out eventually, and be worth every penny INVESTED (not lost!)

-Krystal

[TheRealBigAL]

Are you using RO/DI filtered water or just tap water ?

[syeve]

I took my water to my LFS and had them run the full spectrum of tests. They gave me great advice on area's where I needed help, I have not looked back since the last time I took my water in and got the a-o-k.

Moral: Let the pro's do what they do. You support them, let them support you!

[chevyjaxon]

you made no mention of ammonia or nitrite levels the tank was skimmerless so the DOCS may have gone toxic i would do a 3 gallon water change every day for a month to see if things improve if you do the math that works out to a 100% water change in a month i currently change out 28 gallons a week in my tank and that works out to 60% a month i do 2, 14 gallon water changes a week let us know how it pans out

[dkcrx]

Fifth my questions
-Any ideas why snails die so easily in my tank?
-Any ideas on how I can get the coraline and pods growing in my tank?
-I have not been testing for ammonia or nitrites as the tank has been running for so long. Should I be? Is there anything else I am missing.
-I never rinsed the dead rock when I got it. Is it possible that they treated it with something harmful that is still in my tank? It looked awfully bleached when I first got it.

Sixth, thanks for listening to my whining and thanks to anyone that can answer.

Sincerely,

Jon[/QUOTE]

1. Snails can be a pain, they need a lot of aclimation time, they can be sensitive to temp and salinity change.
2.Coraline wont grow if your Ca is to high ( PS yours is way to high ) should be aprox 380 - 440ppm.
3.Testing never hurts, if in dout, test.
4.The dead rock could have been bleached, you can solve that isue by useing Prime or any other clorine / cloramine remover. "which I'm sure you did when you add your tap water!" Right?

Anything you may have missed. Was your live rock cured or did it stink when you got it?
the ugly algy is a fase every new tank goes through, sometimes goes away after a couple months, sometimes can take up to a year. if you dont have any corals, or things that require light, turn them off for a week or so it's not a cure but will slow the growth, maby end it if your lucky.
I use tapwater all the time dont waste your time letting it go stagnent, use prime and mix the fresh water( shake it pour it from container to container, whatever you can do to airate it) then mix with your salt or add as top up water.

and most important, be patient, this hoby is all about time and fun.
hope this helps, good luck

[marie]

Patience is the key to this hobby, 3 months is too soon to be throwing in the towel. If it were my tank I would do large water changes (30-40% at least) once a week using RODI water, run some phosphate removers and carbon and keep the lights turned off. If you have no corals in the tank I would leave the lights off for the next month, the hermits won't mind :biggrin:

If you have what looks like brown mucous in your tank then it could be dinoflagelletes. Dinoflagellates can kill snails (it's also aptly named brown snot algae) .

[landshark]

Could you be referring to Cyano? Check and make sure you have enough water movement in your display tank. What are you using for powerhead(s)?

[Chowder]

How long did you take in aclimatting the snails? And how was it done?

[chevyjaxon]

how long did you take in aclimatting the snails? And how was it done?
+1

[whatcaneyedo]

Your phosphate, nitrate and calcium scare me. At those levels of NO3 and PO4 I'm not at all surprised that you have algae and slime problems. I am surprised that you dont have calcium precipitation.

Marine Invertebrates: 500 Essential.... By R. Shimek provides some excellent insight on keeping snails and The Reef Aquarium Vol 3 by Delbeek and Sprung is the best book I've read on aquarium chemistry and setup. Or spend some time reading through www.reefkeeping.com and www.advancedaquarist.com (two online magazines) for some detailed direction on how to get you system healthier.

+1 for larger weekly water changes.

[Boomboy]

looks like you got alot of help. no such thing as a bad question. i hope things to out for you, i understand what your going through with the cyano, i had it but with corals. work hard at it, maybe invest in a ro/di unit you wont look back. hope everything turns out well.

[lobsterboy]

i know what you are talking about, i started were you started, diatom blooms, red cyno outbreaks, green cyno out breaks, green hair algae every where, snails dying, and i could go on.
have patience, with all of this

for your outbreaks, have you tried, a phosphate remover? and IMO, i have found that stablity by seachem, helps abit for the cyno outbreaks

[i have crabs]

sounds like your using tap water corect? if so stop, i used it for a long time and battled algae the whole time invest in a ro/di unit it will save you in the end
since your using tap water have you been adding prime to detoxify? if you dont i would think that could be the snail problem.

why the heck is your calcium so high? calcium will aid coraline growth but yours is way to high and the type of calcium you add will determine whether the coraline will use it quickly or not,liquid calcium additive is best. but you need to get yours down in the 400-500 range,what tesk kits are you using?

[digital-audiophile]

RO/DI is a big thing. After using filter water you will see an improvement. I was just making up a batch of water last night, test TDS after filter was 001, s/b 0 but I am ok with that, I tested the water out of the tap and it was 410. That is big.

One product I have used in the past that helped with cyano was KZ Coral Snow, you can get the small botle for ~$25 that can help in the short term. You can also use chemiclean or red slime remover but they really only treat the immediate issue but not the long term problem.

Do you have any pictures?

[Tangman]

as others have said, water change! water change! Invest in a RO/DI !, if you don't your problems will NOT stop! Water changes will bring your parameters down, remember the phrase "the solution to pollution is dilution "
as for the algae problems phosphate reducing media is always a good idea and for now, as already suggested, I would cut back on the lights(or turn them off) and make sure the tank has good flow (power heads)
Also start a weekly regiment of trying to suck up as much of the slime as possible ( when doing water changes)
GOOD LUCK and HANG IN THERE ! :biggrin:

[Snaz]

-Water top ups performed using tap water that is let out for a minimum of 24 hrs.
- I have changed 20 % of the water twice since beginning
Sincerely,Jon

Letting the water stand for 24HR will only remove chlorine. The copper in the water could be killing your snails and other inverts ie. pods. Other suspended particles in your tapwater will fuel the cyano outbreak. Good water is the BASE of every reef tank. Get a DI/RO until ASAP!

You should be doing more regular water changes, 20% in three months will not replenish the trace elements your tank needs.

[jslaney]

Thanks everyone for the Support. I will try and answer the questions in order.

1)I will try to give my tank more love. Its unfortunate she is such a cruel mistress.

2)I am just using tapwater with no treatment for topups. As I understand it, if you let it sit for 24 hours all the chlorine evaporates off.

3)I think getting my water tested at the LFS is a great idea. I will bring them a sample for sure and let you know how his values differ to mine. I am specifically interested in Specific Gravity

4)Regarding DOCS (dissolved organic compounds?) I did not realize that could happen. I agree water changes should be applied. I have been planning a tank build post for a while. I will try and get it going

5)I acllimated the snails over 2 hrs slowly adding my water to the store water. I used a shot glass to slowly add bits of water every so often. The shot glass was well rinsed and is a tank dedicated shot glass.

6)I have no idea why my Calcium is so high. I will have to do some more reading about it.

7)As I previously said, I don’t use prime as I always let my water sit. I think I will add prime to the water from now on regardless.

8)The live rock was fully cured when I got it.

9)I will try to be more patient in the future

10)If the cyano gets really bad again I will leave the lights off. For now it seems to be holding off.

11)I will have to look into dinoflagulates. Interesting possibility.

12)I am trying to do a lagoon tank so I am not putting a lot of flow in my tank. Its circulating about 4 times its volume in an hour so I think its ok.

13)I thought my nitrates and phosphate levels were really low. I will look into that book.

14)My test kit is a brand new instant oceans reef kit.

Conclusions
-Do more water changes
-Get my water level parameters checked at the LFS
-Start treating my top up water
-Consider getting a phosphate remover and RO/DI unit.

Additional questions

1)How do you test of TDS (Total dissolved solids?). Does that not include dissolved calcium. Is that not a good thing.

2)I have read that increased Calcium can be a good thing for stony corals. Why is it bad for Coraline? I am not treating calcium so it must be coming from my sand and water top ups.

If anyone has any other ideas based on my responses, feel free to let me know.

[e46er]

to test for tds you need a TDS meter they are around 35 bux i think

you calcium is sky high and if your not dosing it i would get someone else with another test kit to check your results for accuracy.

[marie]

...
12)I am trying to do a lagoon tank so I am not putting a lot of flow in my tank. Its circulating about 4 times its volume in an hour so I think its ok....

Have you ever swam in the ocean? I think a tidepool has more flow then what you've got :razz:

Soft corals can take (and in some cases prefers) a lot of flow and even lps corals need enough flow to keep detritus and algae off them. I would shoot for at least 10 times preferably 20 times tank volume an hour

[Matt]

Thanks everyone for the Support. I will try and answer the questions in order.
2)I am just using tapwater with no treatment for topups. As I understand it, if you let it sit for 24 hours all the chlorine evaporates off.
Chlorine will leave the water, eventually, but how fast will depend on the volume, surface area, circulation, temperature and starting concentration. No 24-hour rule exists. Likewise, resting the water won't deal with other contaminates. In short, if you're using tapwater (and loads of folks do, with varying success), don't do it without Prime or another quality water conditioner -- or you're just asking for trouble.

[fdiddy]

I used tap water for a long time, but the TDS outta my tap is 184 - not that bad actually. But my RO/DI is 0... alot better :P Considering a 5g jug to refill at sobeys is around 2 bucks that sounds worth it to me. Good Luck and keep at it. This hobby is VERY satisfying if you put you mind to it.

[Tangman]

Sorry to be blunt, but if you are not doing water changes/ top offs with RO/Di water all you are doing is feeding the problem. Useing treated tap water or letting it stand is useless, that may have worked with a fresh water tank but it won't work with SW. You can get a TDS meter at a LFS, but better money spent would be on a RO/DI, as others have said, in the SW hobby a RO/DI unit is part of the basic supplies to have a SW tank, and again , sorry to be blunt, but with out one, you will never have any thing but a slimey lagoon
.
Conclusions
-Do more water changes
-Get my water level parameters checked at the LFS
-Start treating my top up water
-Consider getting a phosphate remover and RO/DI unit.

Additional questions

1)How do you test of TDS (Total dissolved solids?). Does that not include dissolved calcium. Is that not a good thing.

2)I have read that increased Calcium can be a good thing for stony corals. Why is it bad for Coraline? I am not treating calcium so it must be coming from my sand and water top ups.

If anyone has any other ideas based on my responses, feel free to let me know.

[jslaney]

So thanks to Syeve's suggestion I went and got my water tested. All I have for specific Grav is a red sea hydrometer. It was reading 1.026 which is perfect as I understand it.

When the very kind fellow at Ocean City tested my water using a refractometer it read as 1.033. So I am guessing that is the biggest problem.

I will still look into getting RO/DI and have allready bought chlorine remover for my top ups.

Lastly thank you for everyones help and I think the lesson here is dont ever trust crappy hydrometers and before you start adding life go get your water double tested.

Jon.

[Snaz]

So thanks to Syeve's suggestion I went and got my water tested. All I have for specific Grav is a red sea hydrometer. It was reading 1.026 which is perfect as I understand it.

When the very kind fellow at Ocean City tested my water using a refractometer it read as 1.033. So I am guessing that is the biggest problem.

I will still look into getting RO/DI and have allready bought chlorine remover for my top ups.

Lastly thank you for everyones help and I think the lesson here is dont ever trust crappy hydrometers and before you start adding life go get your water double tested.

Jon.

Certainly the high SG is very bad.

The issue with your top ups is not the chlorine as you already address that by having it sitting out for 24Hr. The issue is the TDS, phosphate, copper and other crap from your tap. STOP PUTTING IN TAPWATER! If you can't get an RO/DI unit then do as I do and get the 20 litre bottles from a reputable water filter company.

[Myka]

You already have some great advice here. Did your LFS test your water for calcium? Did they get the same results? What brand of salt are you using? Are you using any additives at all? You aren't using Purple Up are you? I would also suggest upping your flow to 15-20x turnover. What types of corals are you wanting to keep? Both softies and LPS corals will do well with that type of turnover. Your low turnover combined with using tap water (+1 for getting an RO/DI and a TDS meter) are likely your biggest issues, not the high salinity. The high salinity would be contributing to the high calcium reading. Oh, and for the record, you can continue to use your hydrometer, just remember that your particular hydrometer is out by 0.007, so aim for 1.019 on your hydrometer, and that should put your sg at 1.026. you can always double check by taking some water to your LFS again.

Check out the guides in my signature, I think you would find a lot of the information in them very helpful.

[randallino]

May I be frank:
Priority 1 is your water source. I lived in Calgary I know what the water is like it's hard amongst other things. Don't think about it, buy it ....a good RO/DI filter.Po4 shouldn't be an issue with a new system unless you're using live rock from an older system and the water supply.
I hope this helps patience is the key ingredient
FYI
http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/water_services/water_quality/2007_water_quality_report.pdf

[jslaney]

Message received loud and clear. Stop using Tap Water and Get a RO/DI.

Hi Myka,

I will give you the results to my calcium values when next I go into my LFS. I had to leave but he said he would test it straight away. I am not using any additives, but let me double check that measurement before we go into it further. So purple up is snake oil eh? I kinda figured.

I was planning on trying to do that with my hydrometer but its nice to hear you confirm it. I will definitely double check it regardless.

Lastly, thanks so much for putting up those stickies and the Library. I have read them all.

I have just got a lid for my tank so Hopefully I wont have to do as many water changes and it will therefore make lugging RODI water around a little more manageable. This will work until the summer when it will likely be too hot to use.

Please don’t anyone feel afraid to be frank or blunt. If someone had been from the start then maybe I would have budgeted for a RO/DI unit sooner.

Thanks again guys, I will keep you posted.

Jon.

[Snaz]

Jon it sounds like your well on your way to having a great reef. Read as much as you can.

Buying a lid to reduce water changes is not quite accurate. The lid will help reduce evaporation which in turn will reduce the amount of freshwater top ups certainly but you will always have to do regular 10% weekly water changes to replenish the trace elements that your corals and general reef function consume.

First rule of reefing. Patience. Learn that rule and the rest is gravy. Welcome to Canreef!

[Johnny Reefer]

... This will work until the summer when it will likely be too hot to use. ....
As Snaz said, + ....too hot to use what? RO/DI water? If you're looking for shortcuts (in leiu of saying excuses) you might want to rethink the whole thing. The hobby is time consuming.

Good luck and cheers,

[gbeef]

Yeah id say tap water is your problem cyno will stay if there is too much nutrients in your tank. If you have a sand bed, Photophate has probly soaked into the sand and rock. It will take a coupe months for it to clear up. Using consititant RO-DI water changes.

-you need to manage your cal and alk level for coraline to grow.
-Snails you need to slow drip accumlated them.

-POD's really only reproduce if you have a fuge. I wouldnt worry too much about this because once you add fish there toast anyways.

[Snaz]

-you need to manage your cal and alk level for coraline to grow.


I don't agree with this. If your adding 10% new water every week the tank will have plenty of goodies for coraline. I use Instant Ocean and I am good about my water changes and my tank is a coraline factory.

[Myka]

-you need to manage your cal and alk level for coraline to grow.

I don't agree with this. If your adding 10% new water every week the tank will have plenty of goodies for coraline. I use Instant Ocean and I am good about my water changes and my tank is a coraline factory.

Doing waterchange essentially is managing your calcium and alkalinity levels provided your waterchange water is sufficiently balanced which may mean dosing your waterchange water to make up for what your salt is lacking.

Message received loud and clear. Stop using Tap Water and Get a RO/DI.

Hi Myka,

I will give you the results to my calcium values when next I go into my LFS. I had to leave but he said he would test it straight away. I am not using any additives, but let me double check that measurement before we go into it further. So purple up is snake oil eh? I kinda figured.

I was planning on trying to do that with my hydrometer but its nice to hear you confirm it. I will definitely double check it regardless.

Lastly, thanks so much for putting up those stickies and the Library. I have read them all.

I have just got a lid for my tank so Hopefully I wont have to do as many water changes and it will therefore make lugging RODI water around a little more manageable. This will work until the summer when it will likely be too hot to use.

Please don’t anyone feel afraid to be frank or blunt. If someone had been from the start then maybe I would have budgeted for a RO/DI unit sooner.

Thanks again guys, I will keep you posted.

Jon.

You are very welcome, I am glad you read all the Guides. :) That should have given you a bunch of useful information. The lid will only prevent some evaporation, but it won't lower the number of waterchanges you will need to do. You are right though, it will likely get too hot to use the lid in summer. Purple Up is definately snake oil imo. Looks like you're headed in the right direction now! :)

[Johnny Reefer]

....too hot to use what? RO/DI water? ...

....You are right though, it will likely get too hot to use the lid in summer. ...

Riiight. The lid. hehe :redface:.

[jslaney]

Right, Sorry,

I meant top ups not water changes.

With the lid I wont have to top up water as much. This will make lugging RODI water a little more manageable.

Thanks again guys.