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leezard
01-23-2009, 08:51 PM
I am what is commonly referred as a "newbie".

Odd feeling, admitting that.

Anyways, I'm brand new to the forum and new to the saltwater hobby. I do have a freshwater tank, but there are many differences in practice and opinion through the sites I've checked out.

Without further ado....

A friend of mine has recently given me a 20 gallon saltwater tank with a fluval 303 can. filter and heater. They ran the tank for a year and then upgraded, so had no use for this one.

Anyways, when we moved the tank we also brought all of the water home to make the setup easier. Since then I've done some reading, and while I have a few changes to make, I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing.

1) The filter seems to be leaking slightly so I have been looking at getting the upgraded fluval, and using the old one for another project in the basement. Will this do, or are there better suggestions?

2) There was nothing in the tank while it's been running recently -- just regular aquarium gravel. They started the tank just over a year ago and have claimed that they have not done a water change, just top ups. The water levels balanced well. I have recently added 5lbs of live rock, will be exchanging the gravel with live sand and adding another 20-30 lbs of rock over time. Is this reasonable?

3) I have had mixed reviews on a protein skimmer for a tank this small. Thoughts?

4) Possibly a dumb question -- what's the difference between a reef and a marine tank?

5) Any reading suggestions (both online and in print) would be more than welcome!! Like any hobby, there are alot of conflicting suggestions.

THANK YOU!!!!!

mseepman
01-23-2009, 09:17 PM
First thing first...cannister filters are really not for the saltwater tank side of things. If you do plan on using one, remove the bio-balls or other biological filters as they are just traps for bad things. Cannisters can be used to push water and for carbon or phosphate removal, you just have to clean them regularly or they become a problem.

I think the basic way to describe water quality in a small nano marine tank is either do water changes or have a good skimmer (preferably both) otherwise what you put in there will eventually encounter trouble.

Adding more live rock is a good thing....just make sure that it's done prior to adding livestock as you might cause a mini "cycle" which would kill everything.

I'm a protein skimmer fan.

I couldn't tell you if there is a diff between reef and marine tank. There are words related to what type of tank you're doing like FOWLR (fish only with live rock), Mixed (Fish and coral), BB (bare bottom -- no sand), etc. If you're confused by some acronym on here just ask and someone will let you know what it means.

Read the TOTM from this site, RC and Nano-reef.com as combined they will tell you a lot about what successful people have done. There are some great starter articles on here by Myka that you should look at as well.

Hope that helps.

Flash
01-23-2009, 09:27 PM
yay! glad you found it!!!

Whatigot
01-23-2009, 09:27 PM
1) yes, it will do and yes, there are better.
If you get a good skimmer, the only thing you'll really need a canister for is water movement, so you might be better of just buying a powerhead (like a koralia 3) rather than a new canister.

2) Definitely reasonable, add the rocks first and then the live sand so that your rocks are firm in their position, feel free to add 5 lbs of rock at a time after you have everything in the tank, so as not to over do it all at once.
You don't need sand though, there is much debate about the virtues of sand in the reef aquarium (personally, I think the more sand the better, but thats just me and just my thought, others will surely disagree).

3) I swear a prizm skimmer, made by red sea, ran my HEAVILY stocked 32 gallon very well and I would recomend it to anyone, this is a cheap skimmer, and it takes some dialling in, but once there, it's wonderful.
as another option I have been reading increasingly good things about the bubble magus nano skimmer, so have a look at that one as well.

4) no real difference, a reef tank can technically be a marine tank, marine just refers to the ocean aka salt water, the two major types of sw tanks you will see are reefs (coral, fish, liverock, inverts, etc) and fowler (Fish Only With LiveRock).

5) you came to the right place, I doubt there is very many questions that you will find that have not been answered, analyzed, argued about and answered again on this very site.
I love this book
http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Reef-Aquariums-Simplified-Approaches/dp/1890087017
it got me started until I found this sight and started asking questions here, and I would recommend it to anyone getting into the hobby.

leezard
01-23-2009, 10:16 PM
You guys are super. Thanks, bean, for sending me over here and thanks to all for the help! Looks like I'm heading in the right direction....

So, no new filter. Powerhead instead. Right? Is there a specific size/type I should be looking at for this?

Flash
01-23-2009, 11:11 PM
koralia makes a good one! that's what I use!

Myka
01-23-2009, 11:55 PM
Ya, check out the Koralia powerheads. You usually need two powerheads in a tank that size to keep detritus from settling. I would suggest two Koralia 1 powerheads.

Like mseepman, I am a strong believer in protein skimmers as well - at least definately for novice keepers, and I would suggest not using a canister filter. If you would like to run carbon and phosphate media you can use either a PhosBan Reactor (my first choice), or a cheap hang on power filter like the AquaClears. Look for about 100 gph flow rate for the phosphate media. I would strongly advise against the Prism protein skimmer as, in my opinion, they are only good for disposal. A good protein skimmer for a tank that size would be a Tunze Nano Skimmer 9002 (about $180). This is a very good, high quality skimmer that works very well on nano-sized tanks. If you are unable or unwilling to spend that much money on your tank then I wouldn't bother at all with a skimmer as in my opinion, a poor skimmer isn't worth spending your money on. 20 lbs of live rock will probably be enough for your tank. :)

Marine refers to anything saltwater, but generally refers to a tank with no corals. Reef is a tank that houses many corals and fish. FO is fish only. FOWLR is fish only with live rock.

Personally, I would also replace the aquarium gravel with sand. Look for aragonite sand like the Caribsea Select. It doesn't have to be "live", which I think is a very well done marketing scam.

As for reading material, as mseepman graciously suggested, the articles in my signature are good resources for novice keepers. :)

leezard
01-23-2009, 11:57 PM
Ok here's another question -- do I need to get an aerator or airstones for air flow? There's lots of water flow and such, so how does the air get into the water? Or is that part of the point of the "live" rock?

leezard
01-24-2009, 12:08 AM
Oh, Myka. I missed your post. Thank you! I'll definitely check out all suggested -- in the meantime I'll keep the fluval running for some flow, and whenever I can drag my butt into the city I'll go shopping.

As for spending the money -- I walked into this knowing SW tanks weren't cheap, and why even bother if I'm not willing to spend a buck (or 50)? :) As much as I might choke on $50 of "just rocks", I'm a sucker for the best! Or, at least, NOT the cheapest....

Snaz
01-24-2009, 02:29 AM
Everything these guys have already said I would agree with. I do NOT use a skimmer, I am one of a few that believe that skimmers remove more than waste and do more harm than good.

For larger tanks where 10% water changes are not possible every week i would consider a skimmer but for nano tanks a 10% water change every week is a better idea imho. I keep softies and a couple of LPS and they all thrive.

mseepman
01-24-2009, 03:09 AM
One thing to add from my opinion...the Bubble Magus BMQQ nano skimmer is really quite good. I bought one that I plan to add to my nano (as I have a prizm right now and I plan to burn it as soon as I can) The BMQQ is running for me as a second skimmer (while I break it in) in my main display and it's still pulling a lot of skimmate.

It will take some real estate in your tank though so make sure you understand that.

leezard
01-24-2009, 03:21 AM
It will take some real estate in your tank though so make sure you understand that.

Sorry, do you mean some of the living inhabitants? I didn't quite follow (See: "Newbie" comment!) :lol:

Snaz
01-24-2009, 08:02 PM
He means tank space. The skimmer presumably would have to fit in the display area and thus less room for rock and it of course would make an already small tank more cluttered.

One advantage of an "all in one" is the false wall where skimmer and return pumps can be hidden away.

BlueAbyss
01-24-2009, 08:30 PM
Personally, I would also replace the aquarium gravel with sand. Look for aragonite sand like the Caribsea Select. It doesn't have to be "live", which I think is a very well done marketing scam.

+1 on the replacing gravel with sand... it just looks more natural. Specially if the gravel is that epoxy coated colorful junk :lol:

Ok here's another question -- do I need to get an aerator or airstones for air flow? There's lots of water flow and such, so how does the air get into the water? Or is that part of the point of the "live" rock?

Quick lesson on O2 in water...

Water diffuses oxygen in and carbon dioxide (among other gasses) out passively across air to water intersections... so any air to water contact will provide gas exchange.

For our purposes this includes the water surface of the tank itself, and to a lesser extent the millions of tiny bubbles in your skimmer, if you decide to run one. This is why you can put more fish in a larger tank, not because the volume of water itself is larger (though a larger water volume is more stable, in regards to temperature, salinity, etc.)

Just a quick question leezard, have you checked the salinity of the tank water to see exactly what it is at? Or tested any of the other levels for that matter (Calcium, Alkalinity etc.)? If indeed the tank was set up for a year without water changes (or by the sound of it, any form of livestock including liverock) I'd be curious to see what everything is sitting at.

leezard
01-25-2009, 12:46 AM
I've checked the salinity, but the rest is just off the Mardel "5 in 1" (turned "4 in 1" for saltwater) strips -- I'm picking up a test kit from a friend of mine ASAP -- just need to find the time to drop in.

Salinity is throught the roof, so I topped it up yesterday. Still really high, so tomorrow I'll do an actual water change. Nitrates and nitrites are zero, alkalinity is higher than 300 and pH sits between 8.0 and 8.4.

Otherwise, I need to pick up that test kit. I have a freshwater one, but I don't that will have everything I need.....

Thanks for the O2 lesson! :)

BlueAbyss
01-25-2009, 05:07 AM
I figured something would be out of whack.:mrgreen:

Hey, glad to be of service... further to the O2 thing, be careful with the inches of fish per gallon recommendations that are sometimes made. There is some sort of calculation you can do to figure out how much fish you can have with a given surface area of air to water contact, but I can't find the book I used to have with that stuff in it. It is different depending on the fish you are planning on keeping ie: cold or tropical temperatures, freshwater or marine.

To be safe, understock. I have a 20 gallon that will eventually house a pair of Bluestripe Pipefish and a Yasha or Griessinger's Goby. Total length between all fishes will be about 6 inches, probably less, and that still seems like too much... I'll likely only get the pipefishes.

leezard
01-25-2009, 05:26 AM
That's it?? Do you have to count starfish and cleaners, as well, or only fish? I know for freshwater it's generally an inch of fish per gallon, but if done properly a person can cheat.... I'm overloaded in the freshwater by about 6 inches, but they seem to do very well nonetheless. I don't do water changes as often as I should, though.... that whole time dilemma.....

Oh well. Looks like I'll have lots of corals and shiny things! It'll next be a matter of finding out who's compatible with what. Speaking of which.... where's the best place to look for that info?

BlueAbyss
01-25-2009, 08:11 AM
Yes indeed, you must count invertebrates to an extent... but probably because of total bioload, in the respect that they will eat and produce waste. I doubt most are big enough to consume much oxygen, and indeed the photosynthetic types ie: most corals, are considered to be oxygen neutral, at least during daylight hours. I don't think anyone takes into account the extra critters in live rock and sand, but just assumes that these will use some oxygen all the time.

I think I'd actually be stretching it a bit for my planned tank, as I intend to include about 5 Bumblebee Shrimp. These guys only get to 1" max, I've read, so I would count them to be 2.5" of fish total... 1/2 of what their actual length is. Not overly sure if this is a safe bet, but its what I'm using as a calculation. I intend to run a 15 gallon sump which has the same dimensions in terms of surface area, effectively doubling the amount of fish I can keep in this tank.

As far as compatibility with each other, you could do what I did... find something you like in pictures, and find out what it will take to make it grow and thrive. Build a tank plan ahead of time (what I'm doing now), and find things that fit into your grand image. Read heavily before buying ANY livestock... don't go out and buy a bannerfish that looks cute when small but starts eating polyps later, or a spotted filefish that will eat ONLY coral polyps. These sort of purchases rarely work out for the better, and we as responsible aquarists have a duty to provide the best environment for our captives as most marine animals are wild caught.

leezard
01-25-2009, 01:15 PM
Build a tank plan ahead of time

That's what I want to do.... the friends of mine who I got the tank from lost alot of animals, many due to what I may now be considering poor hubandry, and many others because of the eel they purchased without knowing anything about it. Yep, really cute, but they've lost alot of things to it.

I think, then, I'm going to start my reading on seahorses. They're awfully dumb, but neat to watch.... dont' know if it's feasible or not, but nothing like looking into trying while I get everything switched over!

Snaz
01-25-2009, 04:26 PM
http://www.seahorse.org/

Seahorses are not begginer species but if your interested this is the website to start. Read EVERYTHING before you go with seahorses.

leezard
01-25-2009, 04:34 PM
Woot! Thanks! I definitely will.

leezard
02-25-2009, 01:28 AM
It's been awhile since my last newbie question. Now it's just a matter of making sure I"m on the right track.

As a refresher -- I have a 20 gallon tank that had been running empty for nearly a year -- no water changes, no live rock, nothing. There HAD been rock and livestock in it previous to that, but they got a bigger tank and simply decided to get rid of this one and gave it to me.

There is a hagen Marine-Glo light in the hood, which I want to replace with a 50/50 Coralife tube so that I can eventually get into corals and such.

I'm still running the Fluval 303, but have added the AquaClear 30 powerhead and have a Koralia powerhead on order, as well as the Nano Rio protein skimmer (which I found out is apparently a piece of poo and craps out quickly, but I'll use it until said day and get a better one later). When the protein skimmer comes in I'll stop running the canister filter.

I now also have about 25 lbs of cured live rock in the tank, as well as 20 lbs of aragonite sand.

I had problems with high nitrite levels until just recently, most of which I attribute to adding the live rock. Everything seems to have finally balanced, and when I brought my water sample in for testing to double check the staff were very pleased (they seem to have gotten to know me very quickly).

So now I have added two snails, two hermit crabs and a conch.

Opinions? How much more of a cleaning crew do I need? Anything I should be doing differently?

Thanks!!!

leezard
02-25-2009, 05:15 PM
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/firegecko_00/Other%20stuff/untitled2.jpg

(This is not only to share the neatest creature I've recently learned about, but to bump back up on the mainpage. I'm greedy!!)

Flash
02-25-2009, 05:47 PM
go get yourself a few hermit crabs! AND post a full tank pic! lol!

leezard
02-25-2009, 05:50 PM
Yeah yeah. I'll get to that! :p

BlueAbyss
02-25-2009, 06:16 PM
1 tube of any sort will NOT be enough light to grow anything. Let alone SPS corals. These single light fixtures are OK for fish only tanks, and pretty much useless for anything else UNLESS what you are trying to grow is in less than 4 inches of water and directly below the tube (pretty useless in other words). Then you might be able to get away with some types of macros and a few zoas, but nothing else.

I would look into getting at least 4 T5HO tubes above your tank if you plan on growing corals and whatnot. That should be enough light for macros, soft corals, and some types of low light LPS. If you want more, I suggest that you look into metal halides... they are more efficient, produce more PAR, and you'll love the shimmer effect from the water's surface.

Hope things are going well, can't wait for the FTS!

leezard
02-25-2009, 06:21 PM
1 tube of any sort will NOT be enough light to grow anything

Well, poo.

That puts a damper on a few things.

Is there a specific place you can recommend me to get a new light fixture? I'll check out aquarium illusions, but I'd like to at least know what I'm going in there for! :D

can't wait for the FTS!

You're telling me! I'd love to say that I can't wait, either, but... .well.... some things take time, and for once I'm not jumping into things completely blindly.

If it were up to Dave, we'd have a great white shark and a mantaray! :lol:

Thanks for the advice on that! I wouldn't have known the difference.

Wierd. Ask me about reptiles. I can inform away. I just never go so in depth with fish before!!

digital-audiophile
02-25-2009, 06:24 PM
Do cars really cost less in Wetaskawin?? :p


Take a look at the Tek lights or maybe a viper halide? That would do you just dandy now and in the future on that little tank.

leezard
02-25-2009, 06:27 PM
Do cars really cost less in Wetaskawin??
No, but they give us a super discount on therapy bills after hearing that question x-number of times. I'm halfway there! :p

Take a look at the Tek lights or maybe a viper halide? That would do you just dandy now and in the future on that little tank.
I'll take a boo.

I just googled some halide fixtures. Ouch. I think my wallet just hid in the closet!! (Because it KNOWS that I'll spend that much!!!)

digital-audiophile
02-25-2009, 06:29 PM
Have you checked out nano-reef.com at all? When I first started in this hobby 5 years ago it was with a little 10gallon tank and I got lots of great ideas from that site.

People are a lot more helpful on this site but it does not hurt to lurk around and see what other guys are doing with nano tanks.

leezard
02-25-2009, 06:32 PM
Have you checked out nano-reef.com at all? When I first started in this hobby 5 years ago it was with a little 10gallon tank and I got lots of great ideas from that site.

Funny you mention that. I just found the site last night. I was very happy to read through maybe 1/4 of the site before having to finally crawl into bed! I'm sure I'll be visiting that page again soon.

IF.... and only IF I survive the impending doom of walking out of my house today. Egads. I thought we were coming to an end of this stupid cold snap.

Well, so much for procrastinating. You've helped thus far, but I can't put it off. Hopefully the car is warm.....

BlueAbyss
02-25-2009, 06:35 PM
I'll take a boo.

I just googled some halide fixtures. Ouch. I think my wallet just hid in the closet!! (Because it KNOWS that I'll spend that much!!!)

LOL! Yup not cheap but if you do plan on doing anything that needs a good amount of light MH is the way to go, at least over a decent sized tank.

I'll +1 the Tek if you're going T5HO and the Viper if you do MH... Go for the 150W Viper if you go that route, more light is always better and you can always shade new corals if needed.

Lighting Sticky: http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22044

Do some reading, there are some really excellent articles in this sticky.

Snaz
02-25-2009, 06:53 PM
LOL! Yup not cheap but if you do plan on doing anything that needs a good amount of light MH is the way to go, at least over a decent sized tank.

I'll +1 the Tek if you're going T5HO and the Viper if you do MH... Go for the 150W Viper if you go that route, more light is always better and you can always shade new corals if needed.

Lighting Sticky: http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22044

Do some reading, there are some really excellent articles in this sticky.

MH has heating issues especially with nano tanks. Certainly read around, as stated earlier, nano-reef.com is a great resource.

leezard
02-25-2009, 08:29 PM
Awesome! Thank you!

leezard
02-27-2009, 05:02 PM
So after an addition of another conch, two astria (sp?) snails and three hermit crabs, I'm getting closer to the full cleanup crew! Another 5 or six snails, and I'm set.

I found out a whole lot about lighting, too. I never realized that fish could be nearly as complicated as herps. Well, I've learned my lesson!

So here's a pic of the new (and goofy, I might add!) conch, as well as the setup as requested.


"Ow. Oh god. I don't think I'm supposed to twist this way!!"
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/firegecko_00/Other%20stuff/Stuff425.jpg

"Oh. There. Phew. That's better."
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/firegecko_00/Other%20stuff/Stuff428.jpg

"Wha-- Who are you! Get away! Stop chasing me!"
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/firegecko_00/Other%20stuff/Stuff432.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/firegecko_00/Other%20stuff/Stuff434.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/firegecko_00/Other%20stuff/Stuff435.jpg

Flash
02-27-2009, 07:07 PM
oooooo pretty buddy!!! lol! very nice!

leezard
02-28-2009, 12:10 AM
lol! very nice!

I just can't wait to get more!

We've decided to just have FOWLR for now.... maybe when we get are taxes refund back we'll get the light unit!

But to decide which one is the hard part. Money we won't worry about, it's the effect.... so looks like I get to take the hubby on a shopping spree!!!

leezard
03-04-2009, 03:09 PM
I found myself in the west end again yesterday.

Oops. Somehow I was at Aquarium Illusions.

Oops. Somehow I was looking at fish.

Oops! Now I have 6 more snails and two occelaris! Woot!

Anyways, all is well with the tank -- my cleaner crew is built up and done, and I took the chance on some real fish. They were apparently the hardiest to begin with, and considering I've never owned a saltwater fish before, I thought it was the good choice to go for. I was worried that they'd die overnight, but they've done really well and look awesome!

The biggest annoyance, though, was my questions about bioload -- I tried to find out if what I want is an appropriate load for my tank, and the only answer I could get from the guy was "whatever you want".

Well, if that's the case, I'll shove a great white shark in there.....

But in all seriousness, opinions seem to vary -- I've read to understand that two fish is a max, but up to six fish is doable. So I'm not sure if I've got the right opinion or not.

And so far, I've come to trust the people on this forum. It's been great.

So in my tank is the following:
25 lbs live rock
20 lbs aragonite sand
2 conches
5 hermit crabs
12 snails
2 occelaris

And I was looking to add:
1 orchid dottyback
1 two spot goby
2 purple firefish

We have some time to add them, since I want to get the protein skimmer and second powerhead before adding any new livestock. The water has been testing great, and I've been performing weekly water changes. Sometime this spring/summer we'll be getting the new light fixture (more than likely the metal halide). After that we'll be looking at growing the reef aspect.

Thoughts? Is this a good bioload, or am I shooting too high?

Naked Wookie
03-04-2009, 06:04 PM
personally I would only add maybe the goby to go along with the 2 clowns you got.
most people I have talked to recommend firefish for 30g up tanks cause they are extremely active swimmers, I know my 2 I had in a 25g reef used up all the open water darting around.
its alot easier to go with a light bioload starting out rather then having to much and crashing the tank and hating the hobby,it happens to often.
so 5 fish in a 20g seems awful cramped.