Leathers, zoas and sps, oh my... (who does it?)

[Whatigot]

Just wondering who keeps any two or all three of these in a reef?
I do, I have a HUGE toadstool and so many zoas with a bunch of sps...
get decent sps growth, but crappy polyp extension (I blame my clown gobies for this though as I had great pe before them).

I don't run carbon.

what are your experiences with it?

[fishytime]

I am running a full on mixed reef. Zoas, lps, sps and one leather(toadstool). I do run carbon in a TLF reactor. I have removed my other leathers not because of what I thought they were releasing in my tank but because they can be so invasive. I too, wasnt getting good PE during the day(PE was good at night), until I started a Pohl's product dosing regiment( not full on Zeo but a few of their additives). PE is now crazy and my color is deepening.

[Whatigot]

care to share what you do dose?
thanks...:smile:

[mseepman]

X2....I have same problem.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

My reef is sps dominated but I also have a few large leathers, zoos, gorgonians, mushrooms, LPS ect. I always run carbon because of the leathers (and ZEO).

I have not seen any problems and have great polyp extension.

[fishytime]

I dose Seachem "Reef Plus" amino acid supplement (would use Pohls Amino, but its crazy expensive). Then Pohls extra, Coral snow and the coral vitalizer. I dose as close to the same time as possible every morning before the lights come on( can do it in the evening after the lights go out if its more convenient). Most important things are the amino acid first, and the timing. The amino acids seem to condition the corals to extend their polyps fully allowing them to fully benefit from the other additives. A customer at the shop turned us on to this and I am very impressed with the results. His recommendation was the amino acids and the coral vitalizer but I have taken it a step further with the other additives.

[Whatigot]

nice one...
I'm going to look into the amino and vitalizer...
I just made a 250$ order from fragalot, so I just want to protect my new investment.

[Whatigot]

My reef is sps dominated but I also have a few large leathers, zoos, gorgonians, mushrooms, LPS ect. I always run carbon because of the leathers (and ZEO).

I have not seen any problems and have great polyp extension.

Not too sure on this, as I'm not zeo informed, but I think the fact that you run zeo would put you in a different class from me and the issues I might experience in my mixed reef...

I may be wrong though.

[fishytime]

The Zeo system essentially starves the system of nutrients causing the coral to extend their polyps fully in an attempt to feed. It may be that your system is nutrient rich and thus your sps doesnt need to extend to its full potential to receive nutrients. Just my opinion.

[Whatigot]

In all honesty, my PE was fantastic before I had my clown gobies (x2) and they obviously nip at the polyps, I see it all the time.

before them, I was running a euro reef rs80 and I've bumped up to a Schuran jetskim 120 since then so my skimming has only gotten better and the only fish I have added since are a yellow assessor and 3 zebra dartfish.

I feed my tank 3 times a week, so nutrients are not the issue for me I don't believe, though cannot be 100% until I get rid of the clowns...

[pterfloth]

I have several toadstools and a huge (14") devil's claw colony that I have fragged, torch coral, frogspan, mushrooms, zoas, trumpets, richordia and a lot of sps in my 120. I get great PE and awesome growth and good color. I am not running carbon and have been concerned about the leathers but everything seems to be going very well.

I add vodka (2 ml/day) and UltraMin amino acids daily. I feed with UltraClam and Coral Frenzy. I find the UltraClam really boosts PE.

Would appreciate feedback on the presence of the leathers.

[Whatigot]

nice one...
another amino acid adder...
Hmmm..

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

The Zeo system essentially starves the system of nutrients causing the coral to extend their polyps fully in an attempt to feed. It may be that your system is nutrient rich and thus your sps doesnt need to extend to its full potential to receive nutrients. Just my opinion.

Well not quite true because you are putting all kinds of food back into the water for corals. Essentially you are stripping the water of good and bad and then putting the right amount of good back. The ZEO system is designed to give tanks as close to natural reef conditions as possible.

The higher the nutrients you have in your tank, the more unicellular algae such as zooxanthellae the corals are taking in and some species (most all sps) will then brown out and yes not extend polyps much anymore. If you were to actually strip the water of all nutrients, you would kill your corals (this happens when you go too fast with ZEO). Many ZEOvit users have some of the nicest colors and growth, so they certainly are not starving corals--the fact that so many ZEO users see a big increase in growth would indicate that its actually the opposite. This is why many ZEO users have to "up" their bioload and feed heavily.

[Whatigot]

my coloration is excellent.
I am very satisfied with all aspects of my tank other than pe.

I'm not going to start zeo, not my style....:wink:

So you think that between my non zeo tank and your zeo tank that we can realistically compare results of our methods?

I'm not educated enough in zeo to know.
just want to make sure any advice I consider is of course applicable to me.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

my coloration is excellent.
I am very satisfied with all aspects of my tank other than pe.

I'm not going to start zeo, not my style....:wink:

So you think that between my non zeo tank and your zeo tank that we can realistically compare results of our methods?

I'm not educated enough in zeo to know.
just want to make sure any advice I consider is of course applicable to me.

Fair enough...I am not pushing anyone at all to try ZEO :D Its for me because I like to have many large fish. I could not possibly keep my corals happy with the amount I feed if it were not for something like ZEO. I have just started using it but already see a difference.

What is your style? Do you mean you want to keep things more "traditional"...if that makes sense?

[Whatigot]

yeah man.
I have a pretty moderate fish population as you can see in my sig..
My style is simple, easy reefing.
I've seen some great zeo tanks (Tom R) but I have also seen some great non zeo "traditional"tanks so I am constantly forced to ask myself "why" when I get tempted to spend the money burning in my pocket.

I don't want to have to worry about more than I already do with regards to additives, levels and reactors, especially when I have seen no definitive proof there is any real advantage for a moderate reefer.

Can def see the advantage if you want to push your bioload though, but I am just such a nano fish fan and having as peacefull a reef as possible, I just don't see me having to go beyond a better skimmer.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

yeah man.
I have a pretty moderate fish population as you can see in my sig..
My style is simple, easy reefing.
I've seen some great zeo tanks (Tom R) but I have also seen some great non zeo "traditional"tanks so I am constantly forced to ask myself "why" when I get tempted to spend the money burning in my pocket.

I don't want to have to worry about more than I already do with regards to additives, levels and reactors, especially when I have seen no definitive proof there is any real advantage for a moderate reefer.

Can def see the advantage if you want to push your bioload though, but I am just such a nano fish fan and having as peacefull a reef as possible, I just don't see me having to go beyond a better skimmer.

I would agree that its not for you then!

Its not even necessary if you do have a big fish load...Brad (untamed)'s tank is a great example of a tank not adding anything and looks incredible with lots of fish.

Its just the way I have chosen...so many options! Gotta do what works for your tank.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Eventually we are going to have to trade some frags and then compare how they do in both tanks :D

[fkshiu]

I have a very large tongan leather along with almost everything under the sun including a bunch of SPS. I run a calcium reactor, carbon (24/7) and GFO. For the SPS, my polyp extension is pretty good and my colours are not spectacular but "OK". I don't dose a single thing aside from adding CaCl and Mg to my water change water since I use IO salt.

[Whatigot]

Eventually we are going to have to trade some frags and then compare how they do in both tanks :D

Thats a great idea.
I am just about to transfer my 72 bow into a 95 rounded corner.
This will be my last upgrade, only new systems will be brought online by me and this one will be allowed to mature in situ.

I am sure I have a couple I could frag as soon as I'm all set up and ready to go...
additionally, I have just ordered 25 frags from fragalot and have a couple doubles we could maybe compare as they grow if you're into that.

Brads tank was exactly what i was thinking of when I said I had seen some great ones without zeo...
I really love Toms system,obscenely well planned and executed but man, I did not want to leave brads "bar" as it's really like BEING in the ocean...

gotta agree that reefing is like any art, to each their own a path to success.

[FlamesFan]

I have no leathers, but do have a mix of everything else including many SPS. The SPS have great extention.

I currently dose:

Twopart cal/alk/map
ZEObak
ZEOfood
ZEOstart2
Phol's Xtra
ZEO K-Balance
ZEOspur2
ZEOvit Amino Acid Concentrate

I do not run the Zeovit reactor atm. Other than the twopart which i've dosed from the start of my reef, I've dosed Phol's Xtra for a few months and the rest is a recent addition which i've noticed good results. Phol's Xtra and ZEOspur2 are pretty much "must dose" IMHO even if you aren't dosing the whole package.

[reeferious]

i must be quite a few steps behind everybody here who absolutely give their best to maintain their tanks in tiptop shape. for me i only keep my alk, cal, mag within reasonable range and keeping nitrate, phosphate barely detectable. polyp expansions happen hugely after light off while barely peeping out when light on. i don't overskim my tanks as i run a pipsqueak coralife 125 while keeping massive amount of macroalgae blooming. most of my corals don't show massive growth spurt but they aren't dying either. since my intention of keepling reef tank is solely for enjoyment i'm absolutely happy to keep things as simple as can be.

[Whatigot]

I have no leathers, but do have a mix of everything else including many SPS. The SPS have great extention.

I currently dose:

Twopart cal/alk/map
ZEObak
ZEOfood
ZEOstart2
Phol's Xtra
ZEO K-Balance
ZEOspur2
ZEOvit Amino Acid Concentrate

I do not run the Zeovit reactor atm. Other than the twopart which i've dosed from the start of my reef, I've dosed Phol's Xtra for a few months and the rest is a recent addition which i've noticed good results. Phol's Xtra and ZEOspur2 are pretty much "must dose" IMHO even if you aren't dosing the whole package.

uh, thanks?
while I do appreciate your input, I am afraid it's not really relevant since were looking for experiences with sps AND leathers...lol
I am sure your regiment is great, but as title of thread states, looking for input in keeping leather, zoas and sps TOGETHER, as in in the same tank.

[brutus187]

I just pulled 2 huge leathers out of my tank yesterday. I've had VERY slow SPS growth (if any at all!) with the leathers (which grew no matter what I did to them) so I can't wait to see if there is any change.... time will tell i guess

[Whatigot]

what do you have for lighting and supplements?
what salt do you use brutus?

[brutus187]

I have 2 150w 14k phoenix bulbs and use instant ocean salt (i think i would have to double check)

[wickedfrags]

I maintain all three in my display. Do not run carbon. No issues.

[Whatigot]

well well wicked.
I think your display says it all...

What do you supplement?
what salt?

Brutus, I used to have 2x150MH and used I/O...
My growth was super slow...
Switching to Kent Tropic Marine made a HUGE difference and then bumping up to 250 de made even more of a diff...

If you use I/O salt, I think you need to add magnesium...

[BlueAbyss]

So you think that between my non zeo tank and your zeo tank that we can realistically compare results of our methods?

I'm not educated enough in zeo to know.
just want to make sure any advice I consider is of course applicable to me.

Zeo is, in many ways, similar to other denitrifiers. They all do the same thing ie: remove nitrogen-based nutrients from the water, though Zeo is a system of removing nutrients and then adding different ones back in. So, you could potentially use a different method of removing nitrates (deep sand bed, algae filter, etc.) with the additives from the Zeo line and get some of the benefit of Zeo...

Sorry this isn't the discussion here :redface: I don't think there would be any difference between the two if you tried to compare keeping leathers, SPS, and zoas in tanks with or without Zeo. Either way, you have a low nutrient environment which is good for all saltwater creatures... and I would just run some carbon to be safe, and go ahead and put them together! I'm sure they live together in the wild.

And I'll probably be trying this at some point also, if I can find some nice leathers that are colorful and don't get too big for a 20 gallon. I saw something called a green finger leather somewhere that didn't look too big in the pic :lol: