live rock & tufa

[vic622]

I'm in the process of setting up my first SW tank, a 45gal with a 29gal sump/refugium.

I'm going for light stocking, Bengaii Cardinals (2,3 or 4), and a goby-shrimp pair - after cycling.
I'm also thinking of getting a detritivore kit -
http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/prod_detrit.html
to kick-start the sand bed (3"-4") & red mangroves for the refugium.

With a deep sand bed and a refugium, how much live rock will I need and how much of it can I replace with tufa?

Vic

[Myka]

Personally, I wouldn't use "tufa" or "tuffa" rock (two different rocks). Find dried live rock instead. www.bulkreefsupply.com has good prices on theirs including shipping. There are a few other companies out there too (like Marco Rocks), but they will kill you on shipping. You can have as little as just one piece of live rock in a tank of dead rock, and it will eventually seed all of the dead rock, but the more live rock, and less dead rock the quicker it will be seeded.

Bangaii Cardinals can be tough fish to keep. Once they reach maturity they will pair off, and any outsiders will be severely picked on. On the other hand, once you have a pair they will start to breed. The male holds the eggs in his mouth for 5 weeks, and doesn't eat for that entire time. Once the male expels the fry after 5 weeks the female will be ready to pump him full of eggs within a week afterward. If it carries on like this the male will starve to death. The best bet is to get a "dud" pair where the male will either expel the eggs prematurely or eat them, and they will live happily ever after. For these reasons, I am really starting to believe that Bangaiis are better suited in small shoals in 100+g tanks where they can hide from eachother.

Imo, a sandbed of 1-2" is optimal. Deeper sandbeds tend to get sulpherous gas buildup, and release toxins over the years. Deep sandbeds are a bit of a thing of the past these days. Those detrivore kits look kinda interesting, however I think they may be a bit of a waste of money if you're buying live rock as you will get most of those critters with the live rock you buy at no extra charge. ;)

[tang daddy]

one thing to add if you are going with mangroves acclimate them slow from a 50/50% mix of saltwater and freshwater to the proper salinity in your tank. If you drop them in your refuge they will not like that I grow them in a small jar now with sand and 75% SW to 25% fresh and been keeping them alive for 4 months. The first batch of 4 died within 2 weeks.

Jmho cheers.

[vic622]

Myka,
The reason I was thinking of the tufa was for the weight reduction compared to live rock and I can pick it up close to home - no shipping:)

Interesting info about the Cardinals - I knew about the male holding the eggs, but I didn't know how territorial they'd get.

I'm hoping the detrivore kit should seed the sand with Infauna, not the Epifauna of the live rock and that the sand shifters will keep the bed from getting raunchy ...
vic

Personally, I wouldn't use "tufa" or "tuffa" rock (two different rocks). Find dried live rock instead. www.bulkreefsupply.com has good prices on theirs including shipping. There are a few other companies out there too (like Marco Rocks), but they will kill you on shipping. You can have as little as just one piece of live rock in a tank of dead rock, and it will eventually seed all of the dead rock, but the more live rock, and less dead rock the quicker it will be seeded.

Bangaii Cardinals can be tough fish to keep. Once they reach maturity they will pair off, and any outsiders will be severely picked on. On the other hand, once you have a pair they will start to breed. The male holds the eggs in his mouth for 5 weeks, and doesn't eat for that entire time. Once the male expels the fry after 5 weeks the female will be ready to pump him full of eggs within a week afterward. If it carries on like this the male will starve to death. The best bet is to get a "dud" pair where the male will either expel the eggs prematurely or eat them, and they will live happily ever after. For these reasons, I am really starting to believe that Bangaiis are better suited in small shoals in 100+g tanks where they can hide from eachother.

Imo, a sandbed of 1-2" is optimal. Deeper sandbeds tend to get sulpherous gas buildup, and release toxins over the years. Deep sandbeds are a bit of a thing of the past these days. Those detrivore kits look kinda interesting, however I think they may be a bit of a waste of money if you're buying live rock as you will get most of those critters with the live rock you buy at no extra charge. ;)

[vic622]

I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense that a plant needs to be acclimated the same as fish/inverts.
Where did you get your mangroves and were they pods, 1-leafers or full-sized trees? :biggrin:
vic

one thing to add if you are going with mangroves acclimate them slow from a 50/50% mix of saltwater and freshwater to the proper salinity in your tank. If you drop them in your refuge they will not like that I grow them in a small jar now with sand and 75% SW to 25% fresh and been keeping them alive for 4 months. The first batch of 4 died within 2 weeks.

Jmho cheers.

[Keri]

http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/tr_invert.html

$4.99 ea for spaghetti worms?? $2.49 for stomatella?! $2.49 micro stars?! wowza! My sandbed must be worth thousands!

Interesting idea, selling them like that but really, with Live Rock you should get most of these things in time anyhow. I guess that's for people who don't like to wait and love spending money :)

[Myka]

What do you mean "weight reduction"? There have been many threads on the internet questioning the cleanliness and suitability of tufa. I wouldn't risk it. The rock you put in your tank is one of the most important factors. I wouldn't cheap out on that one.

That detrivore kit is a bit of a marketing scheme. Everything included in that list will come in on live rock that you buy. The only things that may or may not will be the ones that Inland Aquatics doesn't even guarantee...the ones that "may be included based on availability". I say save your money on the detrivore *cough* rip off *cough* kit, and spend that money on better dry rock.

Myka,
The reason I was thinking of the tufa was for the weight reduction compared to live rock and I can pick it up close to home - no shipping:)

Interesting info about the Cardinals - I knew about the male holding the eggs, but I didn't know how territorial they'd get.

I'm hoping the detrivore kit should seed the sand with Infauna, not the Epifauna of the live rock and that the sand shifters will keep the bed from getting raunchy ...
vic

[vic622]

Hmmmm .... See and I thought I'd been doing my homework :cry:
I was told that tufa was a good option and that its quite a bit lighter than live rock.
Guess that's why I'm posting here, to find out the error of my ways before I have to pay twice to get it right!

As to the detrivore kit, thanks for the heads-up. I thought it would be a good option to help seed the sand & refurgium - glad to know its money for nothing that I'll get anyhow with good live rock. Maybe once I get my system up and happy I'll see if I can sell some, too :wink:

I'm going to take a closer look at a dry rock/live rock combo. Going this route, what proportion of live to dry should I realistically consider to avoid waiting a year for cycling?

Vic

[Myka]

Hmmmm .... See and I thought I'd been doing my homework :cry:
I was told that tufa was a good option and that its quite a bit lighter than live rock.
Guess that's why I'm posting here, to find out the error of my ways before I have to pay twice to get it right!

As to the detrivore kit, thanks for the heads-up. I thought it would be a good option to help seed the sand & refurgium - glad to know its money for nothing that I'll get anyhow with good live rock. Maybe once I get my system up and happy I'll see if I can sell some, too :wink:

I'm going to take a closer look at a dry rock/live rock combo. Going this route, what proportion of live to dry should I realistically consider to avoid waiting a year for cycling?

Vic

I wouldn't say that Tufa would be a "wrong" choice, as there are plenty of people out there who use it, and swear by it, but there are also plenty of people who have been burned by it. The way I see it, why take the chance?

Tufa is lighter when it is dry. Once it is wet it should be the same weight as good quality live rock. Live rock when dried out is quite light too! ;) In fact one of the ways to tell quality live rock is that it should seem to be quite light for the size of it (dry or wet).

You will always wait a year for dry rock to be fully seeded. You can't go around that. However, it won't take a year to cycle the tank. The tank should actually cycle in the same amount of time. You simply may see more nitrates in the first year or so that your aquarium is up and running as the dry rock matures and develops full colonization of anaerobic bacteria within it. Just keep to light stocking of the tank as far as fish and critters go for the first year or so as you see nitrates developing.

My recommendation would be to buy as much live rock as you can afford. The trouble is that you are starting with quite a large aquarium, and your start up costs are going to be significant. I would try to do 50/50, but 25/75 dry/live is acceptable as well. I have even seen people use all dry rock, and just one piece of live rock to seed. This works too, but takes a significant amount of time before the rock looks pleasing to the eye.

[vic622]

...
You will always wait a year for dry rock to be fully seeded. You can't go around that.
That's how long it takes for all the rock to become "live" right?

... You simply may see more nitrates in the first year or so that your aquarium is up and running as the dry rock matures and develops full colonization of anaerobic bacteria within it. Just keep to light stocking of the tank as far as fish and critters go for the first year or so as you see nitrates developing.
Sounds like the live rock acts almost like a buffer for ammonia-nitrite/nitrate-phosphate - the more you have the better the system can buffer a load, whether its from fish/invert/food debris or natural (or otherwise) die-off.
... I would try to do 50/50, but 25/75 dry/live is acceptable as well. I have even seen people use all dry rock, and just one piece of live rock to seed. This works too, but takes a significant amount of time before the rock looks pleasing to the eye.
I imagine you'd need to spend the first year (starting from 1x live rock) with little or nothing in the tank other than the rock?!?

BTW, very informative articles!

Vic

[Myka]

That's how long it takes for all the rock to become "live" right?

Sounds like the live rock acts almost like a buffer for ammonia-nitrite/nitrate-phosphate - the more you have the better the system can buffer a load, whether its from fish/invert/food debris or natural (or otherwise) die-off.

I imagine you'd need to spend the first year (starting from 1x live rock) with little or nothing in the tank other than the rock?!?

BTW, very informative articles!

Vic

Yes, in (very) short, that's how long it takes for the rock to become "live". i wouldn't use the word "buffer" to describe live rock's abilities just because that would be confusing with alkalinity buffers, but you have the idea right for sure. That's exactly what it does. Using just one piece of live rock, I wouldn't expect corals to do very well for the first 6-8 months, but if you kept the fish load to 50% or so, that would be fine.

Thanks for the comment on the articles. :) I wrote them to help people out as some questions come up over and over, and some of the answers can be long-winded, so I think it's best to point people to an article sometimes so they can get the whole story. :)

[vic622]

... I wouldn't use the word "buffer" to describe live rock's abilities just because that would be confusing with alkalinity buffers, but you have the idea right for sure.
Okay. biological buffer:wink:
Same effect as live plants in my FW planted tanks. I take it in a fish-only system you need to have a reduced bioload - less fish and more water changes to compensate.

... Using just one piece of live rock, I wouldn't expect corals to do very well for the first 6-8 months, but if you kept the fish load to 50% or so, that would be fine.

I have a pretty good idea of fish load in a FW setup, but how do I figure this out in FOWLR? Is it different for a reef tank, too?

Thanks for the comment on the articles. :) I wrote them to help people out as some questions come up over and over, and some of the answers can be long-winded, so I think it's best to point people to an article sometimes so they can get the whole story. :)
Compared to some of the textbooks & articles I've had to struggle through in grad school, your's are succinct and informative!:biggrin:

I'd heard of curing live rock, but now I've got an idea what is going on - and I'd never heard of cooking before!

One question about the process of curing/cooking, do you lose ALL the organisms, or do enough survive to grow & seed the rest and the dry rock?

Vic