low alkalinity

[makana]

My PH is 8.1, Cal 440ppm, Sal 34ppt, but Alk is only 7dkh. I have read that low alkalinity can be caused by the initial cycle but can't find out if it will recover now that the cycle is done.

Is low alk part of the cycle? Should I raise it or will it sort itself out?

[Delphinus]

Ok two things, one a sort of general comment and one more a direct answer to your question. :)

Generally speaking, Alk is not something that will sort itself out. As consumables, Calcium and Alkalinity go hand in hand. A high calcium reading means nothing without the corresponding alkalinity reading. There's a sort of see-saw effect if you don't actively manage both parameters - if alk is low, it's not uncommon to see a high calcium reading and vice-versa. If calcium is the bricks, or building blocks, for growing corals, then alkalinity is the mortar that holds the bricks together. Or alkalinity is the money in your wallet: if you're at Home Depot and they have thousands of bricks, without money to buy the bricks, all you can do is look at them sadly and wish you could buy them. :lol:

Ok, so reef tank lesson aside, the specific answer to your question is low alk is not part of your cycle. However, as things start to grow in your tank, you will notice a draw on your alk and Ca until the point they get out of balance and then things can't pull any more Ca out of your water. So you compensate by dosing, or water changes, or reactors, or whatever your favourite way of doing it, and then you see corals and stuff grow again.

But .. having said all that ... 7dKH is in fact a natural seawater kind of reading for alk. If you look at the zeovit prescriptions for example, they recommend targetting your Alk at 7dKH since they believe there is no benefit to an elevated alk beyond NSW levels. However some people like higher Alk anyhow because it contributes to increased growth rates of stoney corals (although even softeys benefit from "good" Ca/Alk numbers - they maybe just use less of it, so you add less, but it's still important to target "good" numbers).

So: 1) It won't sort itself out, you'll need to track this number and deal with it as it fluctuates 2) It's not really part of the cycle but it will start to deplete over time, and 3) 7dKH is not really a low alkalinity reading, no need to panic as yet, it's a good number to maintain Alk at for now.

Hope this helps. :)

[makana]

I was aware that calcium and alk go hand in hand. From what I have read my calcium seems in the normal range but I read many posts that said in an aquarium alk should never go lower than 8 so I was a little concerned.

I also read that low alk is caused by CO2 wich can be caused by poor water flow and the tank cycle so thats why I thought it might sort itself out.

But seeing as how there is nothing in my tank other than live rock, algea, and snails, what would be bringing down my alk? Or is this just the level of alk that my salt mix produces?

Should I be concerned down the road? If my alk is at the bottom of the scale with no coral will I be having problems when it comes time to add them?

Thanks for the help!

[whatcaneyedo]

Here is a link that will teach you everything you need to know about alkalinity. In the referances at the bottom of the page there is more information to give you an even better understanding.

CHEMISTRY AND THE AQUARIUM by RANDY HOLMES-FARLEY
Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

I find this to be extremely helpful for adjusting my alkalinity as well as calcium and magnesium.

Reef Chemistry Calculator
http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

[Delphinus]

Sorry, I realize you probably knew that bit about Ca and Alk being coupled but I just sort of had to include those comments so that the rest of what I was saying would make sense. In general I would say that 8 is indeed better than 7 but I don't think 7 is too low in and of itself. I wouldn't want it any lower, so it's better to shoot for 8 if you're going to to track it.

Most likely this is indeed where your salt is mixing. There may be a slight draw already but its not huge.

I wouldn't say you need to be "concerned" down the road but ultimately keeping track of Ca and Alk is something you do want to put a little attention on. Finding your own comfort zone is key. For me what works is 2-part dosing (I dose Ca in the morning, Alk at night) and then testing once per week to see if I'm adding back at roughly the same rate they are being used up. As corals grow (and clams, and so on), or as you add corals, the rate Ca and Alk are consumed goes up, and thus you have to add more as time goes on. But you don't have to follow this example. Some people just dose weekly. Some people don't dose at all, but my advice is that Ca and Alk are things you do want to dose and test for on a regular basis since relying on your salt mix to make up for it isn't really the best practice - it just can't follow the dynamics of consumption and growth as well as you can. :)

[makana]

Thanks for all the help! I think I might try and raise it a bit. I'd rather learn how to control the chemistry now rather than after I add livestock.

[don.ald]

[QUOTE=Delphinus;370882]Sorry, I realize you probably knew that bit about Ca and Alk being coupled but I just sort of had to include those comments so that the rest of what I was saying would make sense. In general I would say that 8 is indeed better than 7 but I don't think 7 is too low in and of itself. I wouldn't want it any lower, so it's better to shoot for 8 if you're going to to track it.

Most likely this is indeed where your salt is mixing. There may be a slight draw already but its not huge.

I wouldn't say you need to be "concerned" down the road but ultimately keeping track of Ca and Alk is something you do want to put a little attention on. Finding your own comfort zone is key. For me what works is 2-part dosing (I dose Ca in the morning, Alk at night) and then testing once per week to see if I'm adding back at roughly the same rate they are being used up. As corals grow (and clams, and so on), or as you add corals, the rate Ca and Alk are consumed goes up, and thus you have to add more as time goes on. But you don't have to follow this example. Some people just dose weekly. Some people don't dose at all, but my advice is that Ca and Alk are things you do want to dose and test for on a regular basis since relying on your salt mix to make up for it isn't really the best practice - it just can't follow the dynamics of consumption and growth as well as you can. :)[/QUOTE

can you explain your dosing process? i.e. manual or mechanically?
thanks

[reefermadness]

I think getting used to adjusting and dosing your chemistry now is a good idea. Also you want balanced calcium and alkalinity. I think 420ppm is balanced with 8dkh....I think those would be good numbers to strive for IME.

[Delphinus]

can you explain your dosing process? i.e. manual or mechanically?
thanks

I don't do anything automated as yet but was thinking of ordering some peristaltic pumps in the new year to automate the process. Having said that, Aqualifter pumps (sort of like an air pump but for water) are dirt cheap ($10) and probably would do the trick just fine.

I use Seachem "Reef Advantage" for Ca and "Reef Builder" for Alk. The instructions call for dissolving in tank water first, I don't even bother. I have some measuring spoons from a kitchen store (eg. 2.5ml, 5ml, 15ml, etc.) that I use to measure out what I need and I dump it in a high flow area of my sump. The important thing with dosing 2-parters is that you don't add them at the same time (they react with each other) so I do one in the morning before I leave for work and another in the evening after I'm done feeding the fish and so on.

You can use other 2-parter brands though, or you can even order the stuff in bulk. You can make your own alk additive using baking soda and washing soda too if you're inclined. No real hard and fast rules here. :)

[don.ald]

tanks for the dosing info...where do you pick-up the $10 pumps?

[Delphinus]

I picked up mine off someone on the board selling theirs, they come up from time to time. If you google on "aqualifter" you can find a few mail-order places but there may be a store in town. The only Canadian online vendor I could find listing them is Big Als - http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp18138/si1317171/cl0/tomaqualifterpump

bulkreefsupply.com (one of the sponsors here) also has an economical peristaltic pump, think they call it the "Drew's Doser".

[Sebae again]

OA and Jand L carry the Aqualifter pumps in B.C.

[Delphinus]

Oh that's good to know. They don't list them on either of their sites which sort of surprised me. But I guess it goes to show it never hurts to ask. :)

[Sebae again]

Jand L has them under misc. water pumps

[Sebae again]

And OA under air pumps

[Delphinus]

"Aqua Lifter" haha ok well their search function didn't clue in on a search on "aqualifter". I stand corrected.

[Snaz]

I would think since your tank is brand new or near so that alk/ca should probably not be of any concern. Worry about it when your tank ages a bit and your corals take off. Weekly water changes with a good salt will take care of all your trace elements and alk/ca requirements for now.

When you do get itchy to dose(I never have) make sure your testing first.

Keith

[reefermadness]

Just some info on the aqualifter but they do NOT make good dosing pumps. They will clug up, are not consistent from pump to pump and would dose at a speed of about 200ml / min which makes them hard to time for dosing (most timers being minute timers).

[makana]

Well I added 1/4 tsp of baking soda last night, wich was less than the calculator said I needed to bring it from 7 to 8 dkh. It brought it up to 9 though. Would that be too big of an alk swing down the road when the tank is established and stocked? I'll check it tonight as well, maybe the soda hadn't fully disolved yet.

[reefermadness]

The calculator is not usually wrong. Remember it's total system water but you have to minus all the space the rocks, equipment and corals etc. take up. What test kit are you using?

Anyway I would say 2dkh change that fast is not good. I like to keep mine to .5 max. Calcium on the other hand can be ajusted faster.

[makana]

Well hopefully now that it is up there I will only need to maintain it. The swing didn't seem to bother the snails any. I suppose it is possible that the soda hadn't fully dissolved yet and I got a false reading. If not that then I would have to blame the calculator. I know my tank has 8 gallons in it. I put it my dkh and what I wanted for dkh and chose baking soda. It said .3 of a tsp and 1/4 of a tsp would only be .25. I guess if I ever have to change it again I will have to use a very small amount.

[reefermadness]

Did you use a measuring spoon? Just curious.

I'm sure you tank is fine with the small swing. Swings over 1dkh is usually only a problem for fusy corals.

[makana]

I used a 1/8 measuring spoon. For the most part I just really want to get this all figured out so that when I have livestock I'm not guessing.

[Delphinus]

There's a fair bit of trial and error at first until you find the right amounts. Right now there isn't a lot of draw in your system so start off small. Basically I take an amount, and dose it everyday. Then I test. If things are too high, I use a smaller amount and try again for a week; if things are too low, then I increase the amount. If I'm really not sure of the rates I might test everyday at first until I'm comfortable I'm not pushing huge swings on the tank. It's better to let things get little depleted than it is to push a wild swing on a tank.

At this point it's no big deal mind you, but as stated already, alk is one you don't want to adjust too much in one go. Particularly SPS are sensitive to this, you get "alkalinity burn". Make small adjustments and it should be OK. :)

Hope this helps..

[makana]

My tank seems to have taken a bad turn. Christmas day it turned brown and cloudy. I tested everything and all was fine except ph which had dropped a lot. The tank also stinks quite bad. There is no amonia so I don't think anything died in there. I did a large water change last night while scraping the hair algea off the glass but I'm not sure it helped.

[Snaz]

The tank also stinks quite bad. There is no amonia so I don't think anything died in there.

I would be surprised if there is stink and no ammonia.

You really should have taken my advice and others here to just let the tank cycle normally. Dosing is not required for new tanks, anything it needs will be supplied by the reef salt.

So going forward and others please add your advice. - Remove any delicate species and give to a friend or LFS until your tank is healthy and cycled.

1. Stop Dosing - Why you started adding Soda to chase two point of Dkh on a new setup is beyond me, and why others instructed you to do so is baffling too.

2. Add carbon to remove any ammonia or other chemicals as a result of the probable die-off. (Stink)

3. Water changes 10% at a time with good water and salt, match Temp and salinity as much as possible.

4. Patience - Just wait and treat you tank as if it was new again. Don't do anything until 4 weeks have expired, treat as a new tank.

[makana]

As per:
"You really should have taken my advice and others here to just let the tank cycle normally."

To the best of my knowledge the tank had completed the cycle days before I added the soda. I have dosed nothing other than that one time trying to bring up the alk.

As Per:
"Remove any delicate species and give to a friend or LFS until your tank is healthy and cycled."

I have added no live stock to the tank due to the fact that I wasn't satisfied that the tank was stable and ready yet. The only livestock in the tank is an aptaisa that I havn't gotten around to killing yet and some stomatella snails that were living in the rock when I got it.

As Per:
"Why you started adding Soda to chase two point of Dkh on a new setup is beyond me, and why others instructed you to do so is baffling too."

I dosed because I figured it would be better to try and get stable water conditions now that the cycle had finished rather than after I add livestock. I didn't want to fill the tank with livestock and then have to worry about how to dose when they are consuming the nutriants from the water. I figure it is better to learn before lives are at stake. I also belive that you should always start out with ideal conditions in anything you do, rather than start out with less than ideal conditions and try to sort it out as you go. Maybe I'm wrong.

I have been testing all the levels every day and there has been no amonia or nitrite or nitrate for over a week. It wasn't until this morning that I had amonia and nitrite. If the stink was caused by die of from dosing would I not have had an amonia spike last night before the water change?

The stink was also there before the amonia spike. I am thinking that the algea has consumed the nutriants and began to die off and that is what caused the smell and clouded the water. I am also thinking that the ph was caused by CO2 so I have taken the lid off so that it has proper air exchange.

I just bought and installed a rio nano skimmer and it is now running with the carbon to hopefully remove the decaying matter.

I apreciate the experiance and knowledge that you have to offer. However, I don't apreciate you assuming that I would be so stupid as to have "delicate species" in a tank that hasn't cycled, and that I would be stupid enough to dose that tank and risk the livestock.

If I am doing anything wrong please let me know. I really don't want this to fail. I apreciate all the help I can get and do take all the replies I recive into consideration.

[makana]

Well the tank is clear today and the smell is gone. Amonia and nitrite are going down fast. PH still hasn't changed its 7.9.

How long should I run the carbon? Should I continue to run without the lid? With the lid I didn't need to top off the water because any evaporation pretty much collected on the lid and fell back in. I checked salinity daily and never had it change. Now it has changed half a point since yesterday. I don't mind daily top offs but I'm wondering how you keep fish in and cats out without a top. I also would prefer the lid to minimize evaporation if I go away for a weekend in the summer.

[Snaz]

Well the tank is clear today and the smell is gone. Amonia and nitrite are going down fast. PH still hasn't changed its 7.9.

How long should I run the carbon? Should I continue to run without the lid? With the lid I didn't need to top off the water because any evaporation pretty much collected on the lid and fell back in. I checked salinity daily and never had it change. Now it has changed half a point since yesterday. I don't mind daily top offs but I'm wondering how you keep fish in and cats out without a top. I also would prefer the lid to minimize evaporation if I go away for a weekend in the summer.

I'm sorry if I came off as strong in my previous post. I apologise.

Run the carbon until your confident all is well, some folk always run carbon of some kind. Chemipure, which has been rumoured to solve world hunger, contains a very active carbon component and lasts a long time. I have a small bag of Chemipure in my system all the time.

As far as your lid goes, describe it. Is it a piece of glass that seals the top? If yes then you might want to consider keeping a portion open for gas exchange. If it is a hood then you can keep it closed but make sure you have some surface agitation either from a power head or return jet or even a bubble wand. Something to break the surface.

Does the water surface have a "skin" to it? A skin is water tension, a seal that will prevent proper gas exchange, it looks sorta dusty that gets broken when you put your hand in. If yes then you need to adjust your overflows so the water draws off the surface properly and not just under the surface.
Keith

[makana]

Sorry I was a little deffensive the other day. A brown tank wasn't the Christmas present I was hoping for.

The lid is plexiglass that I cut to fit. There is a small squre at the back that I cut out to make room for the heater and cords. If I put it back on I will have to cut a hole now for the skimmer so it will not really be sealed.

I've got a koralia 1 power head and it keeps the surface fairly rippled. And now with the skimmer return that should be good. My PH hasn't improved any so I'm doubting it droped due to CO2 now.

I found a small dead crab that may have caused the spike. Or the water changed caused the spike and that killed the crab. I had no idea there was a crab in there.

I'd like to keep the lid but I'm not really sure if it will be a problem. I read that they can trap CO2 that is escaping from the tank and then there is no fresh air under the lid for gas exchange.

[J.Lloy]

You will want to consider the tank location for summer. Is the room going to get hot? A lid keeps water in but I find it also limits the tanks ability to cool. Don't know if that will be an issue or not.

[makana]

I considered that as well. Being such a small tank evaporation could be deadly over a weekend. So my plan is to monitor tank temp in the early days of summer. If it looks like it will be a problem then I will be leaving the ac on to match my current tank temp.

My goal is to be able to go camping without having to find someone to come over and take care of my tank. If I have to I will rig up some sort of auto top off.

[Snaz]

If I were you I would start a new thread describing your lid and how it fits and your concerns regarding gas exchange/evaporation etc.

There are lots of people here with experience on lids. I think this thread has run it's course. Also nano-reef.com is the premier site regarding nano tanks. Try the hidden google search on that site to get any answer you need nano wise.
http://www.nano-reef.com/search/

Also the dead crab might have been a molt. With a flashlight look at your rocks a few hours after the lights are out and you will experience a whole new side of your tank you haven't seen before. Good luck with the reef!