First SW Tank

[makana]

I recently started my first sw setup and was hoping you could answere a few questions for me.

I started a 10g nano with sugar sand, 10lbs base rock, 2lbs live rock. My goals is to seed the base rock with the live rock.

The cycle is almost finished. I had a diatom bloom at the height of amonia levels wich quickly died off, and now have a second bloom. I also seem to be having a bloom of hair algea.

When is an apropriate time to begin adding the clean up crew? Once the cycle is done then the bacteria are there for the nitrogen cycle, but is that enough for proper live rock filtration? Should I be waiting until my base rock looks more like my live rock, or is it considered live at the end of the cycle?

Does anyone have experiance seeding base rock?

Thanks!

[Skimmerking]

Welcome to Canreef, your tank when it reaches
AMMONIA-0
Nitrites-0
Nitrates-0
then you are ready to put in a clean up crew. your base rock will seed evenually it doesn't happen over night remember, i it depends on the type of BASE ROCK that you have. if you have rock that is pretty much not porous then IMO you wont get it to seed that well. If the rock that you have is very pourous then you are on your way. Rock should be very pourous if you can get it. it allows for many critters to get in the rocks to eat what ever is laying around in there too.
if you can manage to get more Live rock that better for your little tank. I would probably ask around lots of people could let a small piece here and there go for pretty cheap too.

[Patrice]

Does anyone have experiance seeding base rock?


I have some experience with that. I started just like you and now have much more live rock. I think it took a little while for my base rock to become "live". For sure, the more live rock you have, the less time it take to seed the base rock.

How old is your tank now?

Personally, I would start adding some live stock after the last ammonia pick.

[makana]

The tank is only 2 1/2 weeks old. The amonia dropped to 0 about 4 days ago. Last night the nitrite was down to 0.1ppm. Nitrate has always been 0.

I knew going this route that it was going to take time to seed. I was planning on 4-6 months to seed everything. However, things seem to be moving a lot faster than I had thought. The cycle is nearing an end already and I have coraline patches on my powerhead already.

There is a snail living in the live rock but its not doing much in the way of cleaning. So if its not too soon I will add a small crew once the cycle is done.

The base rock is very porous, it looks like old reef rock. I believe its tufa. I am a little unsure though on when I can add fish. Is the base rock an adequate filter because of the bacteria it gained from the cycle or is it an adequate filter after 6 months of critters, and algea, etc.?

[ElGuappo]

IMO i would add more LR aswell, but i would do it sooner than later. i have had spikes due to die off on on the trip from the LFS to my house and this caused a small cycle.

[makana]

My understanding is that over time there will be no differance between live rock and the base rock. It should develop the same beneficial bacterias and algeas as the live rock, as well as the micro-organisms.

I don't disagree that more live rock would be beneficial and add biodiversity. However, the tank can't hold more rock and adding more live rock would defeat my reasons for choosing base rock.

I had originally considered making agrocrete, but decided it wasn't worth the time for such a small amount. I read a lot of really good articles on people who have had a lot of success with large quantities of agrocrete seeded from live rock. Although if anyone has had any negative experiances with trying to seed base rock I would like to hear them.

I guess what I'm really trying to find out is with my setup when is it safe to add the clean up crew and when is it safe to add corals and fish?

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

It may take months for base rock or dead rock to become fully "live". I use base rock as the "base" of my rock structures, but much prefer to look of nicely shaped LR.

Anthony

[Patrice]

IMO you should wait a little more. As you said, the tank is only 2 1/2 weeks old.
Yes more live rock would help lot but you can do with what you have if you are willing to wait a little.

[makana]

Thanks for all the replies!

I'm not in any hurry fill the tank and cause problems. I really want this to be successfull.

From what I have read it seems that most people are saying that around 3 months you can no longer tell wich rock is wich. I am waiting for all my levels to stabalize so I can monitor them for a while and learn what the levels do and what to expect.

I do have what apears to be aptaisa so I would like to get something in their to take care of it before it spreads. As well I don't want the hair algea to get out of control, or should I worry about that?

When would you recomend adding some clean up crew? Would you wait until the the base rock looks the same as the live rock before adding fish and coral?

My setup seems to be outside the cookie cutter mold so I am having a hard time finding information on what people have done.

Again, thanks for all the replies so far!

[Carmen]

Once you've seen NO spikes of Ammonia or Nitrates for a period of time (I waited til I was clear for atleast a week)then you are probably safe to add in a few members of your CUC. Go slowly and watch them carefully and continue to monitor your levels. Start with just a few snails and see how they do. Make sure there is a good "bloom" of algae before they are added though or they will starve.
Everyone will tell you something different as to what is the right way. Use your discression and monitor your levels and you should be fine. Keep in mind that it takes a very long time (Like 6 months +) to establish appropriate bacterial populations to keep your tank healthy and privide the filtration your tank needs. I am NO expert - still new myself - but have learned (the hard way in some cases) to go slow.:wink:
I too started with some base rock and some live rock. It takes very little time before you can tell the difference between live and base.
Have fun! This is the funnest part is the FIRST additions!

[fishytime]

Are you sure it tuffa? If so look into what people think about using it in a saltwater tank. I personally would not recommend using it. It too porous. It can accumulate debris very quickly becoming a source for bio-organic phosphate. I had one piece of either lava or tuffa. I couldnt tell as it was from a bunch lr I picked up from someone and was colored up. I thought it was a cool shape so I took it. After some time in my tank I noticed that the only piece of "base" rock in my tank seemed to be the epicenter of a minor hair algae outbreak. Needless to say since the piece has been removed I have no hair algae in my tank. Just a suggestion.

[makana]

Thats interesting. It was labeled as tufa at the lfs.

Although from what I have read there is tufa and tuffa and they are different. Some people have bought some that is mined in Ohio, some of it is supposedly old dead coral reef. I really don't know how to tell what I have. It looks like fossils in rock, it is fairly porous, and fairly fragile.

Although the pores are quite a bit smaller than the piece of live rock I have. The pores it has are large enough that snails seem to be able to live inside it. Last night I spotted two snails on the rock and this morning there was a tiny one, all the same type, not sure what type.

[StirCrazy]

Tuffa is commonly sold for tanks at stores that don't know any better, it is good for decorationg a rock garden but not your tank.. the reason is it is a bunch of minerals that are bound in softer stone that water can erode away. this is why it is so pourous. but with this also come the ability for our tanks to erode it further causing a release of mineral, most comonly iron which can lead to lots of algae blooms. Lava rock is also a bad choice as you never know what the chemical composition of it is.

Steve

[new but handy]

Hi I don't think I've seen any good base rock in vernon or kelowna.
I bought a 50# box at J&L, 50# of live rock at OA, and I made 100ish# of my own rock.
Like everyone says you shouldn't use lava rock or limestone, lots of chemicles in those to leech into your a-querium. My tank has been running since sept. My base rock looks like my live rock and my home made rock is getting close.
I added my cuc after about a month. Corriline is just starting to spread(finally)onto glass and pumps ect.
Have fun and go slow (It's hard)

[makana]

Does anyone have firsthand experiance with tuffa rock, negative or positive?

I have read lots of articles and posts claiming that tuffa is bad but they are never by someone who has actually used it. All the posts I am finding from people who have used it are positive.

I read a post from a woman who claims to have nothing but tuffa in her tank with no problems for years. I also read a post from someone who claimed to have 350lbs of concrete with only 40lbs of live rock and no problems.

I would be interested to hear from people here what your experiances are with it.

[Patrice]

I have read lots of articles and posts claiming that tuffa is bad but they are never by someone who has actually used it. All the posts I am finding from people who have used it are positive.

That is true for many things in this hobby. I like to experiment new stuff and most of the time, people tell me it can't work (even when it actually does work). That surprise me when you think that curiosity is a big thing in this hobby. This is just like the time when we use to say the earth is flat and don't want to hear an other theory about it.

[StirCrazy]

Does anyone have firsthand experiance with tuffa rock, negative or positive?

I have read lots of articles and posts claiming that tuffa is bad but they are never by someone who has actually used it. All the posts I am finding from people who have used it are positive.



yes, I used it about 20 years ago on my first Reef tank, and I have tried it on several fresh water tanks..

people like it as it is cheep, very cheep about 17 cents a lb is you go to the mines in BC and buy it direct. they also refuse to believe that that is what could be causing the problem. Now not every piece of tuffa or lava rock will cause problems it all depends whats in it. I had algae problems for two years till I broke down and got some live rock, which was very expensive and hard to come by back then. then magicly all my algae problems dissapered over the course of a month.

This has come up on the board a few times over the years, I think about 5 years ago there was a lot of discussion on it if you wanted to do a search. I was actualy one of the people looking into trying it again as I am inharently cheep:mrgreen: Actualy if you go back to the start of the board there were a bunch of us cheep guys and we tried to do all kinds of things with lights, sand, ect some interisting reading on some, others a real good laugh.

Steve

[Myka]

Check out the Guides in my signature on live rock, cycling, and hair algae. It usually takes about 6 months ime for the base rock to blend in with the live rock. It takes about one year for the anaerobic bacteria to fully colonize the base rock. However, for all intents and purposes you can consider base rock to be "live" rock after about six months. The amount of biological filtration you have will be much lower by using so much base rock, so you will have to stock your tank a bit slower than normal. Joe's Juice works really well on aiptasia. Just be sure to turn off all water circulation and get the juice right down into the mouth of the aiptasia.

It sounds like you're off to a good start! :)

[makana]

Thanks for all the input. Since im not in any hurry I will give the tuffa its chance. Amonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate were all at 0 yesterday so I did a water change today.

My PH is 8.1, Cal 440ppm, Sal 34ppt, but Alk is only 7dkh. I have read that it can be caused by the cycle but can't find out if it will recover now that the cycle is done or should I raise it?

I also checked my water for phosphate and there was none, then I mixed in the salt and checked again and it had 0.5mg/l. Is this normal or do I have bad salt?

I also seem to have a breeding population of stomatella snails living in the live rock. Are they good or bad?

[Myka]

Stomatella snails are my favourite! I love those little guys. I wish i still had some. I wasn't aware that Peppermint shrimp eat Stomatellas until I added a Peppermint! :(

The "Tufa" rock I've seen for sale in stores varies greatly. I wouldn't buy any of it though. I like the feedback, and looks of the "dry live rock" that you see for sale at places like www.bulkreefsupply.com and it is affordable as well. :) Personally though, I would cook all forms of dry rock as in the Guide in my signature on cycling and live rock.