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View Full Version : I am officially BROKE, and ? about ethics in captive fish.


my2rotties
12-10-2008, 05:38 PM
So hubby comes homes with his iphone pics in hand. He had to go to Wai's and pick up some fittings for the sump room, and saw something to cheer me up.

I look at the pictures and there he is, my puffer fish. Frank said he is really big, and then showed me a Naso Tang he is drooling over as well. I grab my last $160 that I have to my name and drive to Wai's. There he is, all 8" of beautiful happy puffer. I stood there for an hour wondering if I could spend $150 for a fish. I look at the smaller guys thinking they would be a better choice but I kept going back to the big guy. I then think I should shop around, but feel livestock you like that is healthy is priceless. If greenspottedpuffer lived in Alberta I would buy him out. That guy is my idol since I have loved puffers since I was a little girl.

He is home now. His name is Gryphon as in Stewie Gryphon. All my other fish went into hiding for two hours since this guy is huge and I was wondering myself if I should have brought this guy home. At first I was worried since he seemed to be swimming like a hunter, and I worried for my little guys. I fed him a shrimp, and although I read they were messy eaters, I really had no clue.:wink: I have krill for him and gave him some squid last night, and he laid down on the bottom and went to sleep at lights out. I worried about that since most fish at the bottom of a tank like Gryphon are in trouble. He is swimming around today looking out the ront window. He must wonder what snow and trees are, and he is totally fascinated by all of it. He is not afraid of me at all, but it will take some time to get him to him to trust me. I think I might have learned a lesson about buying larger more mature fish since they were in the wild much longer. I will enjoy the challenge of building trust and making him my buddy.

Since he was in a reef for a long time and I wonder if I made a right choice. I feel bad for him, since even a 260g pales in comparision to his real home. He does not look so big in my tank now and is happily spreading his fins and enjoying the space. He has a rock wall to forage in and plenty of room, so he is better off here then a store tank I suppose. I I have no buyers remorse now and love this guy. I am still pretty upset over Ed, and know I will never get another Foxface, unless it is an older "rescue".

Wai's also has a giant Naso tang that my hubby loves, but I think it is mean to keep him in a 260g tank. Right now he can hardly turn around in Wai's display tank so I feel I would be rescuing him in the end. However, I feel fish this big should not be allowed to be caught in the first place. If I ever have a two dimes to rub together again, I would like to buy him for hubby, but wonder if it is the right thing to do. He is $300 as well, and I know if I bought him, he would be replaced by another to repeat the circle of sadness for another big wild fish. Any reading I have done says Tangs need a huge tank and not many other fish to share space. The owner of Wai's told me he sold the other big guy to a fellow with a 180 and that is enough space for him. I look at the fish and feel he should be at a zoo exhibit or in a reef where he grew up.

I also have concerns that since this fish is older, he may eventually pine away and die in a captive tank. I know reef keeping is selfish in many ways, but I look at all creatures as thinking being with thoughts and feelings. I don't want to spend $300 for an animals misery, and also cannot afford to have a fish die both financially or mentally. I get attached to my fish and see their personalities and they all have names.

I got into this hobby bcause I inherited an old marine tank with my old Foxface Ed. Had I have known how the fish were caught and the extent of suffering I would have never done this. I bought the 260 for Ed and he never got a chance to see it. Please don't think I am hacking on this hobby because it is awesome and rewarding, yet heartbreang all the same. When things go wrong I have no one else to blame but myself. ALthough I learn from it all, it costs lives that have no choice but to be where there are.

I don't knoiw why I feel so guilty but I do... But back to my question, is getting a Tang that is probably 16" or more inches long a bad thing to buy? I know there are many captive fish that are very happy, mine are, aside of Gryphon. I know he woul much rather be on a reef where he belongs. I know he has a beautiful tank and an awesome "home".

Any opinions and insights are most appreciated, since I want you to give me the God's honest truth. Perhaps I think too much, but these are living creatures and deserve respect. However, I cannot think of a better gift to give my husband since he has busted his behind to build this beautiful tank. He also deserves respect and to reap the rewards of all the time, money and research he has done.

lastlight
12-10-2008, 05:47 PM
I have a 225 in the works and my showfish was to be a nice naso.

Then I saw the giant at Oceans which is bigger than the 'Wais guy' and now I'm struggling with whether or not I should ever buy one. I'm currently leaning towards no. They just get too large in my opinion.

fdiddy
12-10-2008, 05:48 PM
If your hubby has spent a lot of time building the tank and everything, i think, IMO that it is more rewarding to watch your fish grow and develop. It is known that fish do not get as large in captivity and maybe you'd feel better about putting a smaller naso in and watchng him grow rather than buying one that is clearly too large to have grown in a tank. I know that i LOVE watching my fish change colours and grow and i would say that i have more of an attachment to those fish than i do for a few of the fish that i bought full sized already... mind you my tank is not nearly as large as yours and my full sized fish consist of a maroon clown and a blue-sided wrasse..

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 05:50 PM
How much are they asking for the guy at Ocean's just out of curiosity? I feel they are too big as well, but what do you do? Someone will buy them and they will be condemned to that life regardless of what we think. I just wonder if you can keep a fish like this healthy and happy. I think it should be illegal to catch fish that size (please no flames), since they are breeding age.

It makes me really sad...

Trigger Man
12-10-2008, 05:51 PM
What was the length of your tank again? That is a very large tang and they do like space. I've got a 4 inch one in a 5 foot tank and it uses every square inch of the tank. You will also have to think about whether it and the puffer will get along, or will the puffer nip at the naso? lastly, like you said, if you are thinking of saving the Naso because it is to big for the tank it currently is in, that may not be wise, as another one will just be brought in to replace the sold one. If no one buys it for a while then Wai's may think twice about bringing in another.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 05:53 PM
I have to agree with you whole heartedly. My husband feels the same way, but we really feel sorry for the fish as well. Watching him hardly be able to turn around in a display tank is hard bear. If I was rich I would want to buy them all and let them go back into the wild. I am a bleeding heart, what can I say.


If your hubby has spent a lot of time building the tank and everything, i think, IMO that it is more rewarding to watch your fish grow and develop. It is known that fish do not get as large in captivity and maybe you'd feel better about putting a smaller naso in and watchng him grow rather than buying one that is clearly too large to have grown in a tank. I know that i LOVE watching my fish change colours and grow and i would say that i have more of an attachment to those fish than i do for a few of the fish that i bought full sized already... mind you my tank is not nearly as large as yours and my full sized fish consist of a maroon clown and a blue-sided wrasse..

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 06:02 PM
It is seven feet wide and 30" deep. I thought the same thing about the fish being replaced by another. I have big issues with pet store puppies for this exact same reason. I rescued many a dogs but never from a petstore. I have my own personal ethics and morals about animals, but I already crossed those lines when I said I would take the stocked 44g that came with this house. I hate hypocrites and here I am being exactly that.

I watch Gryphon looking out the window beyond his tank, and know it is not right. I almost want to bring him back, but that will not change his fate. He is destined to be captive, so I will give him all the love and care I can bestow upon him. This puffer is very mellow and has no interest in the other fish, mind you the little guys are not stupid and get in his way. He worried me at first since he looked like he was in hunting mode when I put him in the tank. I think he just saw little fish darting around and thought they were shrimp and such. He has no interest in them now. I do feel he needs a companion and will be researching what he would like to hang out with. He was with a purple tang and a niger grouper at Wai's. I have a purple tang but he is a little small to hang out with him. Gryphon is a good 8" long and it looks like he has more then enough room. The tang is double that in size.

I stay the heck away from petstore that sell livestock, but aquarium stores get you since you need to buy equipment constantly and have no choice but to walk by all the fish.

What have I done..

What was the length of your tank again? That is a very large tang and they do like space. I've got a 4 inch one in a 5 foot tank and it uses every square inch of the tank. You will also have to think about whether it and the puffer will get along, or will the puffer nip at the naso? lastly, like you said, if you are thinking of saving the Naso because it is to big for the tank it currently is in, that may not be wise, as another one will just be brought in to replace the sold one. If no one buys it for a while then Wai's may think twice about bringing in another.

ShrimSkin
12-10-2008, 06:03 PM
I have to agree with you whole heartedly. My husband feels the same way, but we really feel sorry for the fish as well. Watching him hardly be able to turn around in a display tank is hard bear. If I was rich I would want to buy them all and let them go back into the wild. I am a bleeding heart, what can I say.


Well, I think you have a very good point. But someone will buy that Naso, if not you someone will. At least you know that it will be taken care of correctly and your tank is more suitable for it then probably 90% of the tanks out there.

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 06:06 PM
What kind of puffer? Sounds like a great addition to your tank...they always are :biggrin:

Puffers do well in captivity. They do get large but are not the most active swimmers even in the ocean and two seem to love human interaction although most of it is just a food dance :mrgreen: Im not saying to cram a porc in a 30G but please don't feel bad about your puff in a 260G

This hobby is nothing if not selfish and you have to get over that to a point. Feeling guilty is good though IMO and if more people did, you would see less fish in unsubstantial aquariums. Most of the people on here or most online forums do make the right choices though and research. I am talking more about the millions of people who do not join forums or care to make sure a certain fish will be ok in their tank.

It is a dilemma with that huge tang. He has to go somewhere and there just are not too many huge tanks out there. He should never have been collected in the first place. IMO there are many, many species collected that never should be. Why are Starry Puffers collected? They get 4'...FOUR FEET!

I think fish should be collected based on adult sizes they will reach and not the 3" they are at the time. So many people buy fish thinking well I have a few years before it outgrows my tank...I have. Its wrong though because then what? I can tell you first hand, its not easy to find a home for a 16" fish. I have tried in the past and eventually had to take him back to a store and feel guilty ever since. I have no idea what happened to that guy.

Good luck and it sounds like you will make the right choice.

lastlight
12-10-2008, 06:06 PM
There's no price on that Naso at Oceans and I've never asked. It has however been there for months so sometimes someone else *doesn't* come along and buy it.

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 06:07 PM
Well, I think you have a very good point. But someone will buy that Naso, if not you someone will. At least you know that it will be taken care of correctly and your tank is more suitable for it then probably 90% of the tanks out there.

I agree with this. He has to go somewhere...whats done is done and a 260 is much better than what I figure he will go to if you don't buy him...a 180.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 06:24 PM
He is I believe a common porcupine puffer. The guy at Wai's did not have a lot of info, and I cannot remember what part of the sea he is from. Another thing I never usually do is buy anything I do not have more info on. I am trying to attach a picture, but will be putting pictures on my link below shortly.

It kills me when I see the fish you are selling since the price is not enough to recoup your costs mostly, and I know you love every one of them. The niger trigger was awesome, I'm glad you found him a home.

What kind of puffer? Sounds like a great addition to your tank...they always are :biggrin:

Puffers do well in captivity. They do get large but are not the most active swimmers even in the ocean and two seem to love human interaction although most of it is just a food dance :mrgreen: Im not saying to cram a porc in a 30G but please don't feel bad about your puff in a 260G

This hobby is nothing if not selfish and you have to get over that to a point. Feeling guilty is good though IMO and if more people did, you would see less fish in unsubstantial aquariums. Most of the people on here or most online forums do make the right choices though and research. I am talking more about the millions of people who do not join forums or care to make sure a certain fish will be ok in their tank.

It is a dilemma with that huge tang. He has to go somewhere and there just are not too many huge tanks out there. He should never have been collected in the first place. IMO there are many, many species collected that never should be. Why are Starry Puffers collected? They get 4'...FOUR FEET!

I think fish should be collected based on adult sizes they will reach and not the 3" they are at the time. So many people buy fish thinking well I have a few years before it outgrows my tank...I have. Its wrong though because then what? I can tell you first hand, its not easy to find a home for a 16" fish. I have tried in the past and eventually had to take him back to a store and feel guilty ever since. I have no idea what happened to that guy.

Good luck and it sounds like you will make the right choice.

Pier Pressure
12-10-2008, 06:26 PM
I am moved by your dilemma and know exactly what you mean. I only keep a 28 gallon with nano fish in it who all get along. The other half of Pier Pressure wanted to go bigger, but when I showed him those big fish in the petstores he agreed it would be a bad thing to do as we would both be bothered by the "pacing". Reminds me of a lion in a cage that is too small at the zoo, and I cannot see ever being happy watching a big fish who should have been left alone in the ocean. However, the fish would probably be better off in your big tank than being sold to a newbie who thinks he would fit good in a 55 or some other such nonsense.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 06:27 PM
PT Barnum said there is a sucker born evry minute... I don't want to be that sucker. I will watch the sales section here and see if someone outgrew their tank and buy that one I suppose. I worry about fish in stores many a times, since they are so stressed out already.

Well, I think you have a very good point. But someone will buy that Naso, if not you someone will. At least you know that it will be taken care of correctly and your tank is more suitable for it then probably 90% of the tanks out there.

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 06:28 PM
He is I believe a common porcupine puffer. The guy at Wai's did not have a lot of info, and I cannot remember what part of the sea he is from. Another thing I never usually do is buy anything I do not have more info on. I am trying to attach a picture, but will be putting pictures on my link below shortly.

It kills me when I see the fish you are selling since the price is not enough to recoup your costs mostly, and I know you love every one of them. The niger trigger was awesome, I'm glad you found him a home.

Yes you have a beautiful porc! Your very lucky ;)

He will be a great "pet" and friend.

I am selling them for many reasons. For one I don't feel the tank was big enough anymore which is along the lines of what you were struggling with. I think I will end up with many of the same fish one day but when I can have a 300G plus tank. I still have most of them though because I am being very picky about where they go. So far the grouper and Niger have found good homes with people I know can care for them. Tank size is not always a huge issue for me but how they will be cared for is. I would rather see them in good hands in a slightly smaller tank than in a huge tank with someone who just doesn't care about them.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 06:30 PM
I'm going to phone and ask shortly and let you know. I know these people have to pay the bills, but it worries me that they will sell a fish to almost anybody and don;t think of the animal's well being. Then people like me buy them and they die, and we are out the money and have a lot of heart break.

We have many bills to pay and I think VERY hard about things we buy... do we need it and the like. You get what you pay for, but when I bought the skimmer and pump last week, I felt sick to my stomach. However it is needed and it was for the well being of my animals. At this point we are in too deep to walk away.

There's no price on that Naso at Oceans and I've never asked. It has however been there for months so sometimes someone else *doesn't* come along and buy it.

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 06:32 PM
I am moved by your dilemma and know exactly what you mean. I only keep a 28 gallon with nano fish in it who all get along. The other half of Pier Pressure wanted to go bigger, but when I showed him those big fish in the petstores he agreed it would be a bad thing to do as we would both be bothered by the "pacing". Reminds me of a lion in a cage that is too small at the zoo, and I cannot see ever being happy watching a big fish who should have been left alone in the ocean. However, the fish would probably be better off in your big tank than being sold to a newbie who thinks he would fit good in a 55 or some other such nonsense.

Pacing bother me SOOOO much. I don't have a problem with it in other peoples tanks but I can't deal with it in mine. The tank doesn't have the same serene, calm feel to it if fish are pacing back and forth. When I was at Untamed's place and saw the fish in his 400G, it was nice to see because they were swimming all over the place and never pacing.

Der_Iron_Chef
12-10-2008, 06:34 PM
I feel your pain! I mistakenly (in my early days of reefkeeping) bought a Hippo Tang for my 55G. I ended up giving it over to a new (and much bigger) home, but it still made me feel bad for the poor thing.

Now I have to exercise some real control in what fish I DO put in my 55G. Yes, it is a selfish hobby, to an extent, but that selfishness should only extend so far.

I think you can find an equally beautiful, active and engaging fish (even another type of tang) that will thrive in your 260!

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 06:35 PM
I love Gryphon very much. He is adorable and it makes me happy I could have something I wanted since I was a kid. I never got into aquariums since I knew they were expensive. This 260g is a fortune, but it is much easier to maintain then the 55g I am finding. I see your posts of fish for sale and wish I could hop on a plane and take them carry on. I respect you a huge amount since I know you love your fish. I saw your post or your porky all puffed up and it made me laugh. I want Gryphon to love me that much too. Right now he just sits and stares out the window, but lets me touch him and I am already showing him my hands are things with rewards. He is not super hungry but did appall me with his eating habits last night. I have never seen anything quite like. We stood there staring, and just didn't speak. Then it was an outburst of laughter and I checked my weater and did a water change. He is a PIG. I need a bigger clean up crew, if he doesn't eat them all.

Yes you have a beautiful porc! Your very lucky ;)

He will be a great "pet" and friend.

I am selling them for many reasons. For one I don't feel the tank was big enough anymore which is along the lines of what you were struggling with. I think I will end up with many of the same fish one day but when I can have a 300G plus tank. I still have most of them though because I am being very picky about where they go. So far the grouper and Niger have found good homes with people I know can care for them. Tank size is not always a huge issue for me but how they will be cared for is. I would rather see them in good hands in a slightly smaller tank than in a huge tank with someone who just doesn't care about them.

superduperwesman
12-10-2008, 06:36 PM
I think you might be in the wrong hobby?? Maybe try something with inanimate objects :)

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 06:49 PM
I love Gryphon very much. He is adorable and it makes me happy I could have something I wanted since I was a kid. I never got into aquariums since I knew they were expensive. This 260g is a fortune, but it is much easier to maintain then the 55g I am finding. I see your posts of fish for sale and wish I could hop on a plane and take them carry on. I respect you a huge amount since I know you love your fish. I saw your post or your porky all puffed up and it made me laugh. I want Gryphon to love me that much too. Right now he just sits and stares out the window, but lets me touch him and I am already showing him my hands are things with rewards. He is not super hungry but did appall me with his eating habits last night. I have never seen anything quite like. We stood there staring, and just didn't speak. Then it was an outburst of laughter and I checked my weater and did a water change. He is a PIG. I need a bigger clean up crew, if he doesn't eat them all.

Man I would love to send you my dogface but I just don't know about shipping. I have never done it before.

They are messy eaters. I would look into smaller fish that will eat off the bottom for a clean up crew. He will eventually eat a lot of the crabs although hermits do ok for a while. I like damsels for a clean up crew in an aggressive tank but many people don't want them in their tanks at all. I find they eat all the little bits of food. Chromis would work maybe.

I also found my five lined cardinal only stayed at the bottom to eat. He was a great one man clean up crew!

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 06:51 PM
I think you might be in the wrong hobby?? Maybe try something with inanimate objects :)


Was that in reference to my pacing comments? :lol:

I have found a solution...proper sized tanks! Like I said, Untamed's tangs were not pacing in his 400G and my nano fish do not pace in my 130G. :razz: Its all relative. I just don't have a big enough tank for most tangs.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 06:56 PM
Ed my deceased Foxfaced paced the 44g he came with all the time. Then I got the 55g so he had more space. When I saw he still wanted to swim more I bought the 260g. It is such a shame he did not make it. He died three days before I stocked the tank. Ed was the most expensive pet I have ever had. I have Rottweilers and I thought they were expensive with medical issues and eating human food instead of kibble.

That tang is so big he would still have problems pacing in my tank since it is only 24" wide and it would still be hard for him to turn around. I think that fish needs a four foot cube and there are only a handful of very fotunate probably broke people whom have one. The 260g has busted every penny we have right now, and I wish I could boycott Christmas.

I am moved by your dilemma and know exactly what you mean. I only keep a 28 gallon with nano fish in it who all get along. The other half of Pier Pressure wanted to go bigger, but when I showed him those big fish in the petstores he agreed it would be a bad thing to do as we would both be bothered by the "pacing". Reminds me of a lion in a cage that is too small at the zoo, and I cannot see ever being happy watching a big fish who should have been left alone in the ocean. However, the fish would probably be better off in your big tank than being sold to a newbie who thinks he would fit good in a 55 or some other such nonsense.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 07:01 PM
I was really heart set on a dogfaced puffer until I saw the porky. The dogface is the one I want for a companion for Gryphon, I love them so much. I have a picture of one on my facebook. I also love the stars and stripes puffers, and if I had my way this tank would be all puffers, triggers and groupers. Any of those kinds of fish seem to have so much personality. They must be really easy to catch on a reef... My husband wants angels and tangs, but we well know that tangs need more space then we really have. I guess I just answered my own question about getting the big one from Wai's.

I saw your dogfaced puffer and wanted him so badly. I wish we could ship him, but I think it is risky. I am so broke I cannot even afford to pay attention and flying to get him is not an option. I wish I was rich.

Man I would love to send you my dogface but I just don't know about shipping. I have never done it before.

They are messy eaters. I would look into smaller fish that will eat off the bottom for a clean up crew. He will eventually eat a lot of the crabs although hermits do ok for a while. I like damsels for a clean up crew in an aggressive tank but many people don't want them in their tanks at all. I find they eat all the little bits of food. Chromis would work maybe.

I also found my five lined cardinal only stayed at the bottom to eat. He was a great one man clean up crew!

Trigger Man
12-10-2008, 07:14 PM
I think the way most of us deal with having our fish is that we believe that we are giving our fish the best that we are able to do, and as long as we've done the research and try as hard as we can that is all that we can do. I think your puffer needs time to get adjusted to it's new surroundings and you need to be able to enjoy your new puffer without thinking about the bad stuff. Remember this hobby is supposed to be enjoyable and even relaxing (as we all know not always the case), so I figure once I make a decision about a purchase that I have researched why not enjoy. There is always a bad side to everything, it's the good that sometimes gets overlooked. From all your concern your puffer is lucky to have someone that discerning to take care of it, now enjoy getting to know your new addition.



Ed my deceased Foxfaced paced the 44g he came with all the time. Then I got the 55g so he had more space. When I saw he still wanted to swim more I bought the 260g. It is such a shame he did not make it. He died three days before I stocked the tank. Ed was the most expensive pet I have ever had. I have Rottweilers and I thought they were expensive with medical issues and eating human food instead of kibble.

That tang is so big he would still have problems pacing in my tank since it is only 24" wide and it would still be hard for him to turn around. I think that fish needs a four foot cube and there are only a handful of very fotunate probably broke people whom have one. The 260g has busted every penny we have right now, and I wish I could boycott Christmas.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 07:43 PM
You are totally right, now go tell your wife you were actually right about something today...:mrgreen: Lately my husband has been right about many things, and I don't know quite what to do about it.

I love the puffer very much even though he is like a kid in school, staring out the window. I know he will see me as the sucker that I am, and know he needs to adjust. My calling in life is to be a "fixer", I always want everybody happy, and go through huge lengths to try to accomplish this. After Ed died on me, I am still raw. I did everything possible and still I could not save him. When bad things happen in my tank I blame myself since it is my JOB to make sure things are always perfect. I still have no clue as to what happened, and cannot learn from it which saddens me. We are supposed to learn from our losses and this will always be a mystery so I am jaded about the new fabulous tank. However I managed to move forward, and have never been a quitter. I just find it takes longer for me to brush myself off and get into the saddle again. I am older and falling on my face hurts more then it used to.:smile:

I am sad he did not make it, but now I can try to help other fish have a decent life in captivity. I just do not understand why humans must capture and possess everything. However all of us are here because we love the beauty nature has provided and want to give them the best that we can...

As for the large tang. I am not going to buy him... I don't want to bring home a fish and constantly feel he is not getting everything he needs. Our tanks are works of art and we want them to be positive and joyful. Like someone else said, buying a fish because I feel sorry for it is not the right thing to do. It is not my fault he was caught and laws are not in place to prevent large fish from being captured. To me this fish would not be a showpiece, as he would take up my entire tank and still have no room to swim.

Maybe some day a fellow reefer will need a good home for a big fish and I will help him out. I have more then enough room. Too bad greenspottedpuffer is so far away, or I would have all his fish by now. I know when it is meant to be, it will happen. I just wanted to reward my husband for all the time and money he has set forth in building this tank. I am very proud of him and his efforts.

This forum is the best and I love the people that are members. You are all a great bunch of people.

I think the way most of us deal with having our fish is that we believe that we are giving our fish the best that we are able to do, and as long as we've done the research and try as hard as we can that is all that we can do. I think your puffer needs time to get adjusted to it's new surroundings and you need to be able to enjoy your new puffer without thinking about the bad stuff. Remember this hobby is supposed to be enjoyable and even relaxing (as we all know not always the case), so I figure once I make a decision about a purchase that I have researched why not enjoy. There is always a bad side to everything, it's the good that sometimes gets overlooked. From all your concern your puffer is lucky to have someone that discerning to take care of it, now enjoy getting to know your new addition.

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 08:23 PM
You guys have all touched on great points. This hobby is selfish and anyone who says differently is blind. That doesn't mean people should stop keeping fish :)

I think there are just as many good points to the hobby as bad...maybe more even.

Fish are very good at adapting and they're survival instincts are amazing at times. We have to remember that as much as we like to give our fish human emotion or traits (anthropomorphism) they just do not have them. He may be looking out the window and bored in your mind but its not the same as a person being bored. He is most likely just thinking of food ;) Well I would imagine he is still quite stressed from all the moves lately but that will pass.

The longer I have kept fish, the more I make decisions right for the FISH and not myself. Thats why I have now moved towards smaller more suitable fish for aquariums. I have actually been amazed by what I have been missing too! Wow there are so many incredible little fish out there. I am not saying I think no one should keep tangs or big fish, I certainly think its fine in the right sized tank but more people need to have the thought process you have about this tang. He does need a home but if the store is able to sell large tangs for $300 very fast, they will keep doing it. If that $300 tang sits there for a long time, as sad as that is for him, it may save other large ones as the store may not be as quick to bring in large tangs that don't sell...in theory. We all know it doesn't work that way or we would never see these tangs in stores.

I really do wish people would stop buying them and stores would make them a special order for people with 300G + tanks. Thats human nature of ryou though...we need the biggest ones we can possibly get...North American nature anyways.

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 08:27 PM
Incidentally, I saw a 12" Sailfin in a Big Al's. Actually they must have had 3 different Sailfins over 10". Very sad to see such beautiful fish taken from the ocean.

Obviously young fish will adapt so much better to a long life in an aquarium which is why these guys are so sad to see. There is a world of difference in my mind between a 12" Sailfin that has grown up in a 200G aquarium and a 12" Sailfin that has just come from the ocean to live in a 200G. The one raised in a tank doesn't know any different. I guess thats why tank raised fishes do so well and IME are so tough.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 08:58 PM
I readily agree with you there. When we get young fish, they grow and thrive as captives. I have only been into this hobby for a year now (I often think of all the other cool stuff such as food and toilet paper I could buy instead of tank stuff). It is addictive but I a happy to say my addicition is fish keeping instead of substance abuse. At least I have something to show for, although last week I hit the Jamacian rum pretty hard.:smile:

I know Gryphon is an animal and probably does not think too much about a lot of things, but I do think he remembers his old life. Mind you I see he found a little cave and is happily napping in there, which makes me happy. He eats and sleeps which means he is content. When I said he looks like a bored school I was being funny. You are probably right, he was thinking of a big fat shrimp or something. At least he has something to pass his time and entertain him. When my dogs run by outside I see him perk up to see what they are doing. I like the fact that he has brains enough to have interst in our world like we have interest in theirs. I know you love puffers because they have human qualities which turn them into pets. It helps us relate to them as individuals.

I have yet to grow a large tank raised fish myself. I thought to go with a little puffer at Wai's but Gryphon was so awesome, so I will have to grow a different puffer or tang or something. My hubsand is dying for an Archilles tang, and when I learn more, I will get one for him. Wai's wants $450 for one and I have to special order it. I just am leery about that since I want to know the fish will adapt to captive life. I like to watch fish when they come into a store and stay there for a long time. Gryphon has been at the store for a few months, so I can feel safe bringing him home.

I like your choices of a clean up crew and will look into those. I really love gobies and blennies and need a few for the bottom. I have so many possibilities for fish and do want many small ones so long as they do not ge eaten. I lost my mind for the big tang for a bit since I felt sorry for him. If I got that fish I really could not have any more. I would imagine a fish of that size would put a huge bio load on my new system as well. Gryphon is a swine and he is only one fish.

Still wish you lived in Alberta, I would bring the rum over to your house and buy some of your fish.

Incidentally, I saw a 12" Sailfin in a Big Al's. Actually they must have had 3 different Sailfins over 10". Very sad to see such beautiful fish taken from the ocean.

Obviously young fish will adapt so much better to a long life in an aquarium which is why these guys are so sad to see. There is a world of difference in my mind between a 12" Sailfin that has grown up in a 200G aquarium and a 12" Sailfin that has just come from the ocean to live in a 200G. The one raised in a tank doesn't know any different. I guess thats why tank raised fishes do so well and IME are so tough.

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-10-2008, 09:03 PM
And I would welcome the rum and love for my dogface to live with Gtyphon. You are certainly right about puffers becoming pets and having human qualities. They are very curious little guys and can be so much fun. In the long run he will be a very lucky fish!

I readily agree with you there. When we get young fish, they grow and thrive as captives. I have only been into this hobby for a year now (I often think of all the other cool stuff such as food and toilet paper I could buy instead of tank stuff). It is addictive but I a happy to say my addicition is fish keeping instead of substance abuse. At least I have something to show for, although last week I hit the Jamacian rum pretty hard.:smile:

I know Gryphon is an animal and probably does not think too much about a lot of things, but I do think he remembers his old life. Mind you I see he found a little cave and is happily napping in there, which makes me happy. He eats and sleeps which means he is content. When I said he looks like a bored school I was being funny. You are probably right, he was thinking of a big fat shrimp or something. At least he has something to pass his time and entertain him. When my dogs run by outside I see him perk up to see what they are doing. I like the fact that he has brains enough to have interst in our world like we have interest in theirs. I know you love puffers because they have human qualities which turn them into pets. It helps us relate to them as individuals.

I have yet to grow a large tank raised fish myself. I thought to go with a little puffer at Wai's but Gryphon was so awesome, so I will have to grow a different puffer or tang or something. My hubsand is dying for an Archilles tang, and when I learn more, I will get one for him. Wai's wants $450 for one and I have to special order it. I just am leery about that since I want to know the fish will adapt to captive life. I like to watch fish when they come into a store and stay there for a long time. Gryphon has been at the store for a few months, so I can feel safe bringing him home.

I like your choices of a clean up crew and will look into those. I really love gobies and blennies and need a few for the bottom. I have so many possibilities for fish and do want many small ones so long as they do not ge eaten. I lost my mind for the big tang for a bit since I felt sorry for him. If I got that fish I really could not have any more. I would imagine a fish of that size would put a huge bio load on my new system as well. Gryphon is a swine and he is only one fish.

Still wish you lived in Alberta, I would bring the rum over to your house and buy some of your fish.

my2rotties
12-10-2008, 11:27 PM
Okay this puffer rocks! I stripped to my shorts so I could rebuild a tunnel for my new little buddy. Of course now I am rescaping everything and trying to catch the evil damsel fish (he was really good until I moved him to the 260, free to good home if you catch him).

I have Gryphon's tunnel set so the open side looks out the window and he has a peep hole on the other side. Well, being soaked to the skin in my skivvies was worth it. He loves it and is watching me do my work and such from his peep hole. I freaked out over $150 for a fish but he was worth every penny. He was in a bare tank for so long you can tell he is enjoying some privacy. I think he enjoys watching the crazy human sliding on the wet tile more then I enjoy him.

So I go back to wading past my armpits in my ocean. I needed to take a breather since I was getting mad trying to stack rock just right.

And I would welcome the rum and love for my dogface to live with Gtyphon. You are certainly right about puffers becoming pets and having human qualities. They are very curious little guys and can be so much fun. In the long run he will be a very lucky fish!

Trigger Man
12-10-2008, 11:36 PM
good to here that Gryphon is doing better, and if you ever decide to get a achilles do not pay 450 for it, there are many places in Calgary that will get you one for less then half that price, but remember they are one of the tougher fish to keep, so you will need to do a lot of research on them first.

SeaHorse_Fanatic
12-10-2008, 11:52 PM
Sometimes I think my fish eat better than I do.:redface:

The puffers & now the Niger Trigger (thanks again Justin) eat FD shrimp & krill, as well as tiger prawns, shore crabs, and even blue crabs (my wife just bought some for her Poofy from T&T market). The FD Krill works out to $30-40 a pound I think, which is far more than anything I pay for my own food. We also drive all the way to Tswassesen & other shoreline places to collect little crabs for them to munch on from under the rocks at low tide.

Yes, while these fish would probably prefer to be out in the wild, at least in our tanks, they are usually safe from predators and get breakfast in bed (so to speak).

Anthony

my2rotties
12-11-2008, 12:01 AM
Perhaps you can shoot me a PM and let me know where to go...

I think its me who is better to be honest. I think I needed a new larger fish and a rescaping of the tank (took hours), to get my head around this whole thing again.

Thanks for the help.

good to here that Gryphon is doing better, and if you ever decide to get a achilles do not pay 450 for it, there are many places in Calgary that will get you one for less then half that price, but remember they are one of the tougher fish to keep, so you will need to do a lot of research on them first.

phillybean
12-11-2008, 03:04 PM
Here is another way to look at it...

Is life in the Ocean that great? Sure they have the swimming room, but they also deal with bigger fish that want to eat them, they have to hunt (work) for their food. The reef (their homes) are disappearing (even with-out collection). Global warming and pollution are causing poor water conditions.

In a proper tank, the average fish will live longer than they would in the wild. Sadly, too many people have improper tank.

That said, I feel that fish over a certain size should not be collected.

GreenSpottedPuffer
12-11-2008, 05:51 PM
Here is another way to look at it...

Is life in the Ocean that great? Sure they have the swimming room, but they also deal with bigger fish that want to eat them, they have to hunt (work) for their food. The reef (their homes) are disappearing (even with-out collection). Global warming and pollution are causing poor water conditions.

In a proper tank, the average fish will live longer than they would in the wild. Sadly, too many people have improper tank.

That said, I feel that fish over a certain size should not be collected.

With how things are going these days, you do have a good point. I have never had a problem with captive fish myself and think they do live good lives. I agree with you though that my only real issue is one how many of them are caught and two what size they are caught at.

I am so sick of hearing about show sized this and that in stores. To me if a store is selling a "show size fish" and it didn't come from someones tank, its plain wrong. Yet people pay MORE for these fish. IMO there is just a huge difference between buying baby fish who barely knew the ocean and large fish who grew up in the ocean and are now being kept in a relatively tiny box.

my2rotties
12-11-2008, 06:35 PM
I know first hand why we should not get adult fish unless they outgrew their owner's tank. My male clownfish is eaten and the other two now know to stay the heck out of Gryphon's way. I have a real life documentory happening in my tank now, and its my fault. Too bad he didn't get the damsel fish though... This guy loves live food!!! I guess he must love the tank size and the rock walls, and feels like he is back home.

If anyone has nice large fish that are too big for their tanks in Calgary shoot me a PM. I won't be getting the little guys, but I also won't be getting mature wild fish either. Laws need to be changed since newbie people like me don't know better until it is too late. I have no buyer's remorse, I will just have to deal with this now. In the wild animals get eaten if they are sick or slow. My two remaining clowns know better now and things are settling down.

Gryphon is full now and is in one of his caves I made for him having a nap. I wonder if I will see the clown in his poop later...:lol:

my2rotties
12-11-2008, 06:39 PM
Gryphon hunting. He looks so small in this tank since he is a good 8" long, and a little fatter.

my2rotties
12-11-2008, 09:52 PM
The price of the 14" Tang at Oceans is $499, OUCH! Makes the $300 on at Wais look like a bargain.

my2rotties
12-15-2008, 06:22 PM
I visited two LFS stores and one of them had large captive fish. I can honestly say these fish looked very happy and well adjusted. This store was so helpful and knowledgeable, and made us happy to spend money. All the fish were social and begging for food readily and the big fish had big tanks to swim freely.

Both stores had people right beside my hubby and I, and I had to ask them help other patient clients while we contemplated livestock. These stores were so helpful, I have no need to shop anywhere else to be honest. I have my one store where I love the owner and he clicks with us so well. Now I have these two others as well.

I am glad I had PMs to check these two other stores out although they were very out of my way to go there. They are well worth the commute.

Although I still feel large fish should be in the wild, I now know some LFSs do care about the fish, and the homes they go to. I feel bad for judging every LFS as being the same now and apoligize for prematurely making statements. I know these stores will not sell me fish if they feel I cannot care for them properly, and that is a very good thing.

My hubby bought one of his "dream" fish, a large Emperor Angel, and I felt comfortable for him to do so. I know my polyps might not have a chnce but we were told this and hubby said he would buy them for "Quinn" to eat if needed. However Quinn eats pellets readily and is so happy in my tank so I have no regrets.

This whole experience does prove to me that fish do care about where they are, and how they are kept. I have never seen such happy fish aside of my own. So I am not totally wrong in some statements, but it does depend on the LFS you shop at.

This hobby has taught me so much about many things, and also that personal issues and feelings are not always warranted. I will not beat myself up over this hobby any longer but I will not shop at stores that make me feel this way.

Please don't beat me up over coming forward and saying I was wrong. I feel I should apologize for judging, and I really am sorry about it. I am very new to this hobby and just feel I should ask questions when I don't really know myself. To some of the other members that bashed me in a different post, please do not reply as it will not be productive in the end.

Sorry to anyone I did offend as it was not trying to flame anyone. I just saw things I did not feel were right, and now I know not every LFS is created equally.