Acropora tip burn

[Delphinus]

I'm begging for suggestions here. Everytime I try SPS, this is what happens within a couple weeks:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/delphinus_photos/1.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/delphinus_photos/2.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/delphinus_photos/3.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/delphinus_photos/4.jpg

Notice how the damage appears to start at the tips and works down.

Here are the parameters:
SG: 1025
NO3: 2ppm (Elos test kit)
PO4: 0.000 - 0.008 (D-D/Merck test kit)
Alk: 8 (Elos, 2 different test kits)
Ca: 390 (Elos and Salifert)
Mg: 1200 (Elos)
Lighting: 250W DE Ushio - 12 months
Volume turnover: 50x

Tankmates: orchid dottyback, Z. desjardini tang, purple tang, scopas tang, some kind of damsel, 2 doliatus rabbits, a green urchin, a diadema urchin and an abalone. Hallowe'en hermits, blue leg hermits.

So what could do this damage? It seems limited to acroporas right now. There is a porites in there that seems OK. I never see the fish go at the SPS, and the damage doesn't look or sound right for AEFW.

So what's left? The crabs maybe?? There may still be hitchhiker crabs in the tank as I sometimes see their molts. What could do this kind of damage? Look how systemic the damage appears too. It's not localized. I would have guessed alkalinity or lighting but neither of those seem like plausible explanations.

I'm at my wits end with this. I went 6 months without a single SPS in this tank and finally I succumbed to temptation and this is what I get after 2-3 weeks with the new corals. Every single one of them is letting go!!! What gives??

[niloc16]

i think you mg is too low. i have seen that with high alk too

[Delphinus]

I'm working on raising Mg. I think Mg is closer to 1280 right now. Isn't seawater at 1300? So this damage can be low Mg??

I forgot to list Potassium. I did test for it and I *think* it's between 350-400. (Extremely hard to read test results..)

[niloc16]

i'm not sure if mg would be the cause. but its worth a try to bring it up

[Snappy]

Tony I see recession at the bases too. I think there must be something toxic in your water or the air getting pumped into the system.

[Jason McK]

I agree with Greg. I'd run some Carbon and if you have a UV get it going. Do you run Ozone? or any bacteria based addatives (Zeovit)

J

[Reefer Rob]

Are you running any nitrate reducer or chemical filtration? Some of these will strip the water of trace elements. Just a thought.

[Delphinus]

I am running carbon now.

I don't have a UV. If this was your tank would you consider buying a UV? Or ozone? ..

I was running Zeovit for a while, also ran Reef-resh before that. Not currently running either of those at the moment though. But I am using Taylor's "NO3 Destroyer".

I did in the past try a sulfur denitrator on this tank, but it never worked, so I gave up on that idea. That was nearly two years ago, would there be any residual sulfates? Even if there were, I thought they were supposed to be inert?

Throw some polyfilter into the mix maybe?? If it's something toxic I don't know what else I can do. :( Basically all I can think of is things like Chemi-pure, copious carbon, and polyfilter. I guess I can try UV but I don't just have the understanding behind it to know what size and flowrate to look for.

[Samw]

I had the same problems in the past. Things turned around for my Acroporas when I started running a UV while all else stayed constant and I was finally able to keep Acroporas alive and growing for about a year. Then, they started slowly dying again. My theory was that some kind of bacteria/vibrio was killing them and the UV sterilizer helped. When I neglected to change the UV bulb, the bacteria came back and I slowly lost all of my Acropora.

[fencer]

I prefer ozone because it will also take out any (some)toxins UV is only biological. You didn't say if the pieces died eventually or they just suffered that tip burn and lived.

[Jason McK]

The Reason I asked about the Bacteria based systems is that I did not want to recomment UV or Ozone to someone running that kind of sytem. Both UV and Ozone would destroy the bacteria.

This is my thoughts as Well. I think Brad had a treatment for vibrio at one time
I had the same problems in the past. Things turned around for my Acroporas when I started running a UV while all else stayed constant and I was finally able to keep Acroporas alive and growing for about a year. Then, they started slowly dying again. My theory was that some kind of bacteria/vibrio was killing them and the UV sterilizer helped. When I neglected to change the UV bulb, the bacteria came back and I slowly lost all of my Acropora.

J

[Aquattro]

I think Brad had a treatment for vibrio at one time
J

Ya, went to the doctor and convinced him to prescribe an antibiotic. Seems to have worked. Can't recall what the med was, but I'll look it up.

tony, I'll talk tou you offline about the symptoms I had that put me in that direction.

[Delphinus]

These pieces pictured haven't died yet, they are pretty much as shown at the moment. However given past corals as a guide for what to expect, there is no hope of recovery at this point for the pictured corals. Well, maybe not the hoeksemai as yet per se, but I am greatly distressed to see the white starting to form on that piece, up until this weekend it had seemed to do really well. It did get knocked over the other day though so I suppose it could just be distress from the fall and landing on something, but ..... I suppose the more realistic explanation is that it's just this coral's turn now. :(

I'll consider UV or ozone at this point .. clearly me focusing on the parameters, hasn't really netted any results, so I have to broaden the scope of what to consider.

So it looks like J&L sells Coralife and Pentair Aquatics brand UV, and Ocean Aquatics sells Current USA. Are UV systems created more or less equivalent or should one steer away from the less expensive models? What about Ozone? Is that a better option? It looks like an ozonizer with controller will cost roughly double that of a UV. :neutral: (Oof :( )

[NAS]

I see in the back ground that you have a colt coral??? Or some leather by the looks of it. Try (Gasp) running activated carbon for about a week, and crank up your skimmer. A quick scrup will help take any organic toixins out. You will have to keep an eye on your trace's but a regular dose should be fine.

That's my two bits....

PS: The carbon wont be harmfull in the short term regardless of which carbon school of thought you subscribe to.

[Delphinus]

Background of picture #1? That's actually a monstrous sized xenia. No leathers (that would be a very plausible explanation otherwise - leathers and SPS don't play well together).

[Delphinus]

Ok, let's look at this from another angle. What if the lighting was totally inadequate? I know things would likely brown out first but could inadequate lighting cause damage this extensive this quickly?

[Sebae again]

IMO they would brown out not burn.

[Flipside]

Do you use any additives? maybe you over dose? Check your potasium and iron as well. and also? how did you measure your salinity? did you use a refractometer or one of those cheap plastic ones? and maybe your lights needs changing too. at 12 months it's about time to change it. No? what do you think?

[Flipside]

You know what else it might be? too much circulation blowing in one continues direction at the coral tips. Are you running some type of wavemaker so you dont have your powerheads blowing so hard continuesly off the tip or your corals.
maybe your temperature fluctuates too much? all these things I mentioned could have a great deal on the matter. maybe all or some combined. or your PH as well. You didnt mention your PH. maybe its too low or too high or it fluctuates between lights being on and off.
Worse case, you should take the burnt tips off to prevent spreading. otherwise you'll loose the whole piece. those are nice collection you got ther.

[Doug]

Tony, I wonder if there is an answer. Most of these threads and there seems to be many, seldom have a conclusion, when a seasoned aquarist like yourself is involved. Of course, many newer ones, make some visible mistakes, that we can help with but the ones like you, usually have enough knowledge to cover all the bases.

I read your thread on RC and similar answers over there, as on all the similar threads on sps problems like yours on the RC sps forum.

I wish I had an answer for you from reading most all of them over the years but dont. Just looking at them to me, looks like burn/bleaching from excessive light at the start. Not saying thats the cause but what it looks like. I cant see them receding like that from not enough light, old bulbs, or anything of that nature.

Definitely, as mentioned, abrupt alk. changes to the corals could cause it. As for the uv working, if you remember when the newest bare bottom fad [not the one we did back in the early 90,s. :lol:], began, most of the experienced reefers promoting the system, also said using uv was a large part of it. If you check some of those large threads on RC in regards to it, most had mention of them.

I cant personally say if they help, as its been 20 yrs. since I used one, but the evidence from them and others like Sam, may show some truth in it. Mind you these were high flow bare bottomed sps systems.

As for ozone, does it not remove organics, similar to carbon? Always thought that,s what it was for. So if your problem is bacterial, then the sterilizer would be the way to help. I have thought about getting a small hang on unit for my nano. The one problem with UV units, is not changing bulbs soon enough, and/or premature bulb failures with some models. Plus I thought I read once about salt reducing the light emitted and models with the wipers to be far superior. [ just trying to remember things here].

[Delphinus]

Thanks Doug. I agree that the two most likely explanations for what I'm seeing would be light burn and alkalinity burn. If it was someone else's tank those are what I'd be suggesting to look into.

My biggest worry about this whole thing is that, whatever it is, seems to transfer from one tank into another. I have 3 distinct reef systems at the moment and none of them are capable of sustaining acropora species. I do have montipora's, seriatopora's, and pocillipora's that seem OK. In fact a "test frag" of birdsnest I received from Snappy about a year ago has turned into a reasonably sized colony in my 75g. But any acropora's are toast.

This is why I'm personally leaning towards some kind of pathogen as an answer, it's just that I wish there was a better way to confirm and overcome before my new tank becomes the same acropora-free zone that the others are. If it is pathogenic in nature then moving clams and fish and the surviving corals into there are likely transferring the cooties as well.

So, maybe the UV is still the answer. Unfortunately the cost is beyond my means at the moment so the idea will have to wait for now.

Flipside, here is some additional info for you. You're right I forgot to post pH. Here is that info. I was asked the same question on RC so I went and did some testing (I rarely test pH since I've never seen a reason to - it's usually a parameter that is in response to other parameters - depressed pH might indicate high NO3 for example and/or low alkalinity - so I focus on those parameters instead). But anyhow, this is what I found:
pH at end of day before lights out = 8.4
pH in morning two hours before lights on = 8.1

I found that when I was running a reactor, these numbers would be pulled down somewhat (ie. range would be more like 8.2 to 7.8 or so). Right not I am not running a reactor, I dose Ca and Alk manually. Those are the only additives I use. I dose Ca in the morning (Seachem Reef Advantage) and Alk at night (Seachem Reef Builder), I test Ca and Alk every few days and adjust the dosage amounts accordingly if the numbers drift away from target. For the most part it's a steady state though.

The tank in question is not currently running wavemakers. Although FWIW, it did have Tunzes on a multicontroller in the past and that did not seem to make a difference at the time, also my other tanks do run wavemakers. Nevertheless maybe I will see if I can change things around to create less of a steady state flow situation in this cube tank. I don't disagree that this could be a contributing factor, thanks for the suggestions.

I will check my daytime and nighttime temperatures and see if there's a fluctuation at the moment. I don't think there is a significant fluctuation but it's been a while since I checked daytime versus nighttime. I try to run the tank around 76F.

[PoonTang]

Mabey try dosing smaller amounts multiple times per day. Perhaps you are shocking the system too much with just the 1 large dose. I think that most Alk suppliments have a large affect on local pH.