Salt Virgin Needs Advice

[NewGuy]

Sooo after many months of lurking around reef forums and drooling over peoples reef systems, the yearning is starting to take its toll on my sanity :redface::mrgreen:. I have freshwater experience and a biosciences background so I am familiar with most of the chemistry issues and the general science side of things. What I lack is practical experience, cash, and time (full-time student).

Anyway I am trying to assess the feasibility of attempting to start a marine/reef setup for the lowest cost possible. I am under no illusion that I will be keeping SPS or anything, only some softies or maybe even a LPS!! I have a 30g and a 29g which I picked up for cheap. I intend to go skimmerless (to reduce cost and it seems doable from some of the threads on RC) so most of the 29g will become a refugium with a DSB for nutrient export and parameter stabilization while the 30g (36") will become the display. Hopefully the large size of the refugium to display ratio will help alot.

So I have a few questions for you reefers out there. :smile: Oh and if you recommend items please be aware that I am unable to purchase online. Everything will have to be sourced locally. I am in the Vancouver area.

1) Are T8 bulbs even available in higher colour temperatures such as 20K? I intend to go DIY lighting. I am aware that there is T12NO bulbs available from the fish stores but they are still like $20 each. If T8s are available I intend to OD them. However I might luckout and pickup some lighting for super cheap. You never know afterall.

2) For healthy DSBs is aragonite necessary? Does anyone have experience with sand beds composed of play sand? Play sand is still relatively fine and the small critters might not mind the fact that its not of the ideal composition. Aragonite will be in the display for aesthetic, livestock and chemistry purposes.

3) What is a cheap return pump that will be capable of delivering 600+gph at 4' of head? I was contemplating a Quiet One 4000 but I have been reading some unfavourable reviews about them. Are there any better or EVEN CHEAPER choices out there? It can be a sh*ity pump if its dirt cheap. I intend to use no powerheads and this return will be the only source of flow. Maybe a SCWD can be plumbed in if I can get one for CHEAP.

4) Where can I get a glass hole saw? How much would it cost me?

Anyway please don't say "blah blah get a bubbleking" because its simply not feasible for me at the moment. Part of the fun comes from trying to do something with the least possible so I view this as a challenge.

Thanks for reading :mrgreen:

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Welcome to Canreef :)

You can definitely start an aquarium on a budget, especially if you're willing to do regular water changes (in lieu of a skimmer), etc. The large refugium will help, too.

I don't use sandbeds or know anything about fluorescent bulbs so much, so I can't help with those questions. Regarding the pump, you might consider the Hydor Seltz line. They're fairly inexpensive, as pumps go, and they're dead quiet (and reliable). A diamond-coated hole saw bit is really cheap to order online...but I guess that's not an option for you. They vary in prices at the different stores (Home Depot and Rona will sell them for around $60/ea. which is really expensive, but I know people have gotten them at Princess Auto for much cheaper). Your other option is to borrow one, or see if someone local can help with the drilling.

Good luck :)

[niloc16]

[QUOTE=NewGuy;363791]Sooo after many months of lurking around reef forums and drooling over peoples reef systems, the yearning is starting to take its toll on my sanity :redface::mrgreen:. I have freshwater experience and a biosciences background so I am familiar with most of the chemistry issues and the general science side of things. What I lack is practical experience, cash, and time (full-time student).

Anyway I am trying to assess the feasibility of attempting to start a marine/reef setup for the lowest cost possible. I am under no illusion that I will be keeping SPS or anything, only some softies or maybe even a LPS!! I have a 30g and a 29g which I picked up for cheap. I intend to go skimmerless (to reduce cost and it seems doable from some of the threads on RC) so most of the 29g will become a refugium with a DSB for nutrient export and parameter stabilization while the 30g (36") will become the display. Hopefully the large size of the refugium to display ratio will help alot.

So I have a few questions for you reefers out there. :smile: Oh and if you recommend items please be aware that I am unable to purchase online. Everything will have to be sourced locally. I am in the Vancouver area.

1) Are T8 bulbs even available in higher colour temperatures such as 20K? I intend to go DIY lighting. I am aware that there is T12NO bulbs available from the fish stores but they are still like $20 each. If T8s are available I intend to OD them. However I might luckout and pickup some lighting for super cheap. You never know afterall.

i would say go with T5 lighting, it can be cheap if you search around, aquatic addictions in abbotsford has some good prices and with T5's you will have good quality lighting

2) For healthy DSBs is aragonite necessary? Does anyone have experience with sand beds composed of play sand? Play sand is still relatively fine and the small critters might not mind the fact that its not of the ideal composition. Aragonite will be in the display for aesthetic, livestock and chemistry purposes.

i would really suggest not going with a DSB. if you want sand, use enough to cover the glass and whatever is at the bottom of thank. DSB can be a MAJOR hassle in the long wrong

[superduperwesman]

+1 for T5s

[NewGuy]

Hi thanks for the replies.

Does anyone know if any of the retailers in the lower mainland carry the Hydor Seltz line?

I obviously want to go T5HO and I have looked into it but its still pricey unless I find a cheap used setup. For a 4 lamp setup the bulbs alone will be around $120 after tax not to mention the ballasts and endcaps. I know that I can overdrive 4 T8 lamps for around $70 in ballasts. It all depends on whether such lamps exist and how much they cost. I believe that 4 T8 lamps overdriven 2X (or more with another $35 dollar ballast) will be reasonably close in lighting to T5HO especially when no individual reflectors are involved.

As for the DSB I really dont know what to do yet. I have read the information available and the science seems reasonable. Since I have zero experience I might just go ahead and try it to experiment a bit. I doubt that if I do decide to go ahead that this system will remain untouched over the longrun.

Also I want to do the least amount of waterchanges possible since salt is expensive :twised:. I will also be using TAPWATER DUM DUM DUUUUUM!!. Vancouver water is really quite pure. If you look at the reports nitrates are usually below 0.1ppm and phosphate is undetectable by analytical methods so I believe it to be "good enough for now".

[niloc16]

no disrespect man and dont take this the wrong way but you need to listen more to the reefers that have hands on experience then what books and scientists say. you asked for advice and we are not salesmen and store owners so we are not trying up sell you on anything. one thing you DONT wanna cheap out on is lighting. i have wasted WAY too much money tryin to do stuff the cheap way and trust me it has cost me ten times more then it should have. yeah sure you can use tap water, just keep your bioload WAY down otherwise in a couple months you will be on here asking for advice on how to get rid of your hair algae and turf algae and every other nuisance algae out there.

[NewGuy]

I take no offense at all and please don't take this the wrong way either, this is pricely what I meant whan I jokingly said "dont say "blah blah blah buy a bubbleking"".

I realize that you are making good recommendations regarding a good reef system. However, the whole point of this excercise is to CHEAP OUT as much as possible. Yes I lack experience and I realize that, hence why I am here. I need some insight as to where I could possibly cheap out some more. I am not aiming for a "mainstream" reef setup with the greatest chance of success. I am trying to squeeze in there on the margins of success with the lowest cost possible and thus trying to take every cost cutting measure possible. If I fail so be it since not that much was lost anyway. I am not wasting money buying various commericial products and ending up having to get another since I bought the cheap commercial product. I am will try to make everything reusable for something else. Trust me I know all about the algae just from my freshwater experience alone.

I have read no books or listened to the "scientists" as you say. Everything I am contemplating is derived from reading about peoples actual reefkeeping experiences.

Thanks for your time.

[Slick Fork]

Welcome to Canreef and Salt water.

I gotta say I agree with Niloc16. There's ways to save money, and then there's being cheap to the point of setting yourself up for disaster.

As an example, for water changes you can buy a 150 gallon pail of instant ocean for $40ish from J&L which is right in Burnaby for you. At roughly 60 gallons of water (total volume) a 10% water change is going to be 6 gallons. At that rate that $40 will last you 25 water changes or roughly 6 months (if you're changing weekly) so that works out to be $1.60 in salt each water change. I don't know about Vancouvers tap water so I'll recommend RO and let more local guys prove me wrong. If you have a grocery store or water store nearby you can typically buy a 5 gallon jug of RO water for about $4 or $5 here in Alberta. Hopefully it's the same where you live so that brings your cost/water change up to $6.60 each time. If that's really too much for you then I gotta say you're probably in the wrong hobby. Without a skimmer water changes are quite important.

I would second the recommendation for the hydor seltz line. I'm also using a quiet one 3000 and it works fine. I like your idea of a refugium that's almost the same size as the display but I would stay away from a DSB, if you want go with a couple of inches for aesthetics.

If you really don't want to spend a whole bunch on lighting right now, I would start it as a FOWLR tank with Normal Flourescent lighting. Even regular flourescent bulbs should allow you to grow some nice macros that will also contribute to nutrient export. Save your money and buy a quality used fixture when one becomes available and as funds allow.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

One thing about the reefing side of the hobby is that it is expensive. It is theoretically possible to cheap out on equipment, but you'll probably never achieve the results or the livestock health that you hope for. I have always maintained that either you spend the $$ or the time (preferably both) if you want to grow corals.

If you cheap out on lights, you'll end up being unhappy with the colour or intensity & wish you had gotten something better in the first place (most reefers have upgraded their lighting several times by trying this route).

If you go skimmerless, then either have minimum fish/feeding or be prepared to do water changes. Without a skimmer or water changes, you're looking at much higher probability of a tank crash due to hair algae from the build up of nutrients.

Most cheap/generic T8s I believe are 6700k or lower, so your tank will be yellowish & your water will look like pee.

Yes, it is possible to go this route (I started out totally KISS) but the odds of success are much lower. In the end, I spent a lot more money upgrading tanks & equipment so that now my systems are more-or-less self-sufficient (minimum water changes/maintenance). But to reach that state, I spent a LOT of $$ to get the proper equipment.

On another fish board, I have lots of members ask the same types of questions & I usually recommend that if they don't have the time or $$ to do it properly, then wait till your circumstances change (ie. graduate & get a good job) before jumping into sw.

From what you've stated so far, I would also recommend doing a low bioload fowlr first & then try some softie frags when you have more money for proper lighting &/or skimmer/water changes.

Remember, if you go this cheapout route & fail, its not just a little of your money lost, but also all the livestock you will have killed for no good reason. Something to think about.

Anthony

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

BTW, unless you use reef bulbs (ie. not 6700k plant bulbs), you're going to end up with a tank of hair algae - pretty much guaranteed.

So if you really insist on going the T8 overdriven route, then make sure you use 10,000k & actinic bulbs, not generic daylight or soft white bulbs that will cause you endless headaches.

[moldrik]

I just got into this, but I'm going to make an attempt to make this hobby affordable. This is my projection based on the reading that I've done ( a couple books ), the amount of reading, and the past 4 weeks that my tank has been running and how much I've experienced in terms of setting up the tank, re-purchases, etc...

What I wrote is gonna be cheap. Most of it is going the super cheapest route not only for setup, but for long, cheap, student life haul. Just be realistic, the cheaper you go, the more risk you run of this project going completely downhill.

I'm being cold here, I'm not thinking best water quality, health of fish, etc... I'm thinking of what you can setup, that will probably run, your fish will probably not die, and you will be able to keep a system without a ton of upkeep ( since you lack time + money ).

Set up:
You can buy most of the equipment for cheap, a lot cheaper than in stores, the question is whether you have the patience for it. Lighting, skimmer, tank, heater, LR, etc... you can either get it for really cheap or for some of these items even free.

You already mentioned your pump that will be needed, but...you will probably want an overflow of some sort when sending water to your refugium, you won't want your livestock getting sent over to it all the time and then getting it pumped back up ( since they'll kick the bucket ). You could also ghetto it and put some sort of soft mesh, or retrofit a strainer so nothing goes from the display to the refugium/sump thing you're frankensteining.

Decision:
So right here, let's say: aquarium + hoses for free.

I think I saw a 40/50 gal Overflow for - $40
salt 160gal Instant Ocean - $40

Total: $80


So, main components, costs, side effects:
1 - Water Changes
Thoughts:
I think the thing about this is that you'll be wanting to use RO water. People mentioned that, and things are gonna get expensive quickly if you buy the water. In the long run, a RO system will make sense for you. The stress from this will also be dependent on how heavy the bioload is.

( I'd say the RO system is gonna save you a lot of money in the long run, so i'd say prioritize one )

If you wanna go super cheap and say screw it to the RO and buying water, you'll need a filter of some sort. You'll want to do something with carbon and phosphate remover otherwise you'll run into some maintenance issues. If you don't do this, your tank will be an algea nightmare with some crappy water quality.

Decision:
I went really cheap. I'd buy an used House RO system for 40 bucks from craigslist. Probably better water quality and cheaper than using a conditioner/filter to try to better the water quality. I'd maybe get some carbon/phosphate remover in a bag and simply make sure it sits in the bucket when the salt mixes for an extra $20. I don't want crazy algea outbreaks from high Phosphate in the water.

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/hsh/903278804.html

House RO system - $40
Carbon / Phosphate Remover ( in a bag )- $20

Total: $60


2 - Skimmer
Thoughts:
This will influence how many water changes you're gonna have to do. Invest in a good one and your tank will be healthier overall ( since it will keep a stable water quality level ). If you invested in a RO system, you basically are saving the price of the Skimmer as long as you do water changes often.

( Possibly low priority, dependant on the RO unit. Get an RO unit, and you can pretty much scratch this one off the list )

Decision:
You bought the RO unit, let's say you can do your water changes

Total: $0


3 - Filter
Thoughts:
Since we can buy an house RO system for $40, I'd do that and then buy some filter media and simply use it when mixing the water.

If we went to buy a filter instead of the used house RO system, it would cost more than the RO system and probably be less beneficial.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/pf-ac200/Hagen+Aquaclear+50+Hang-On+Power+Filter.html

We are talking cheap here after all.

Decision:
I decided to go with the filter media and use it when mixing the water.

Total: $0 ( I already counted the $20 when buying the RO unit ).


4 - Lighting
Thoughts:
This will be a big factor, dependant mostly on what you wanna keep. If you want a cheap setup, this area is going to get you. Insert corals into the mix and you're raising your cost here by at least $130. You can buy some crappy PC lighting for cheap but you will still be able to run your tank.

Decision:
Let's say the tank comes with a canopy, One 10,000K and one Actinic

Total: $50


5 - Flow
Thoughts:
I think the cost here is pretty small overall, get a single 3 Water Pump Koralia and you should be good for the tank ( $50 bucks ). You can probably buy a used one for pretty cheap.

Decision
Might sound stupid, but you need to take it into consideration, mixing the salt. You'll want a powerhead or something to stir up the water. I share this with the one in my tank, so when I need to mix salt, I take out the powerhead and put it in the bucket.

Shared powerhead ( tank + mixing )

Total: $50


6 - Sand
Thoughts:
Depends on what you want, you can get some for free probably if you shop around and even if you choose to not do a DSB you'll still get some benefits from it.

Decision:
I like the look, helps with the balance of the tank and gives me some good bacteria to help out with making things healty.

Plus, I can find it for free: $0 If not:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46972

Total ( Worst Scenario ): $20 bucks in Richmond.


7 - Live Rock
Thoughts:
Well, there is no question here. Get some, I think I found some adds in the livestock area for $1/lb.

Decision:
There is no decision to make, I buy some rubble.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46443

I'd bug the crap out of fortheloveofcrabs to see if I could get some rock shipped. Might be cheaper overall. Or you can wait in vancouver and find some cheap rock, I've seen it from $2-4 bucks a lbs.

Let's high-end this used rock at $4 a pound, x 40 ( going light on the rocks ) = $160 ( a fairly average, price outside of the LFS ).

If fortheloveofcrabs ships @ $1/lbs + shipping, the shipping is probably cheaper than $120 which makes more sense than getting 40lbs from the LFS.

Total ( Worst Scenario ): $160


8 - Heater
Thoughts:
Buy a used one, I'm sure you can find one cheap or free.

Decision:
Bought a new one, this stuff is crucial and I want something good.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/ht-s150/Stealth+Aquarium+Heater+-+150+Watt.html

Total: $32


9 - Everything else....
Well you are gonna need a few extra things that add up the cost, cause these are minimal, but you need to get them.

Hydrometer, Food, Test Kits, possibly some additives. If you're using tap water, you might want to get some water treatment conditioners.

This stuff adds up:
Hydrometer: $14
Food: $40 ( frozen brine shrimp, flakes, Phytoplankton ) - I'm going as cheap as possible if you wanna keep corals
Test Kits: $60
Total: $114



Summary:
This is not including ANY livestock.

I would definately invest in a skimmer, you don't have much time. Having to do these water changes constantly will get the best of you. I would also spend the money on a skimmer, even if it's a crappy one. I bought a Red Sea Prizm ( I know they are bad ) for $30 bucks. It works and it helps with aeration and circulation. This will give you less of a headache.

I would not go crazy with this tank, I'd set up a good ammount of snails and some sand sifters to clean up the tank. And probably only keep a few small fish, with a few coral dependant on the lighting.

Salt + Overflow + Tank Setup = Total: $80
Home RO System + Filter Media = Total: $60
Skimmer = Total: $0
Filter = Total: $0
Lighting = Total: $50
Flow = Total: $50
Sand = Total: $20 ( Worst Case )
Live Rock = Total: $160 ( Worst Case )
Heater = Total $32
Everything Else = $114

Grand Total: $566 + taxes

You could bump this up to $700- $750 + taxes ( about $30 in taxes since most of it is used ) and be able to afford yourself some much better lighting and a cheap skimmer ( like mine ). You can go cheaper, and possibly find more stuff for free, but I'm trying to average a "realistic & cheap" budget.
________
medical marijuana (http://dispensaries.org)

[Leah]

This hobby is great and I think everyone should do it but from experience it is expensive
to say the least. And after forking out the big bucks it is also time consuming I would not
even care to guess at the time I spend on my tanks, granted I am a perfectionist. If I
remember from the early days trips to the L.F.S. for something or other seemed non-stop
Maybe some one out there may agree with me on this that even after buying good stuff
you still spend time fixing stuff...or is that just my bad luck. I would never dream of running a tank without a skimmer. You are setting yourself up for dissapointment it can
be and is frustrating even at the best of times. lol

[brizzo]

Take a look through the buy/sell section here on CanReef. There is *alot* of good deals to be had! Instead of being 'cheap', be practical and buy second hand :)

[ron101]

If I wanted to get my hands wet for bottom dollar without cutting unreasonable corners I would:

- NOT use a DSB. They do NOTHING for nutrient export; they just trap them until they reach critical mass and then release them back into the system. Use bare bottom or shallow crushed coral so that you can siphon out the crud. Yes I used to run one. There are extra costs for all the sand and the 'critters' that you supposedly need. Plus there is the loss of useable tank volume (an 18" tall tank becomes a 14" tall tank with a 4" DSB).

- Look for used lighting in the Buy/Sell section. You CAN save money if you go DIY if you know what you are doing. However, for first timers you usually end up spending more money and much more time experimenting until you get it right and even then you often have a ghetto system that looks marginal with no resale value.

- Not bother with a skimmer. I see absolutely no problem going skimmerless if you are sticking with a lower stocking level and soft/lps corals. IMO, like every industry there is propoganda to increase consumer consumption. Good skimmers cost a fair bit and cheap ones are next to worthless. I would only consider skimmers 'necessary' if you are pushing the envelope with stocking levels (not a good idea anyway) or if you want to go with SPS (in which case you have to buck up for other things as well.) Water changes and siphoning are the best forms of nutrient removal and for the price of a good skimmer you can buy a lot of salt mix. Down the road when budget permits, consider adding one.

- Go sumpless. Smaller tanks have thinner glass which have a good chance of breaking when drilled. Even if you succeed in drilling you have to buy the fittings and plumbing, build an overflow box, and buy a return pump. Again, more time and money.

If the tank does well you will probably want to upgrade down the road, then budget for what you want (bigger tank, reef ready, skimmer, Ca reactor, SPS, etc). In the meantime go for the simplest system but buy quality gear. In the hobby, equipment failures can cost you orders of magnitude more than the amount you saved on cheap gear.

[Hangfire]

I'm no expert in marine aquariums, but have you thought about setting up a nano tank. You could pick up a pico 3 gallon tank for around $60, and it comes with a light and a filter. You'd need to get a small heater, but that's about it. I've seen some very nice set ups on nano-reef.com with little more than that tank - some of the guys have upgraded their filters and lighting, but it would be fairly cheap. Just a thought.

[rstar]

I am a firm believer in the health of our critters. If going the "cheapest possible route" and "seeing if i can do it" or squeaking by just barely means your critters will suffer then they are better left in the ocean or at the store. We have a responsibility as aquarists to provide the best care in our means to these critters, and if that means no skimmer and the fewest waterchanges possible on a small tank you are setting yourself up for disaster. And no one on here wants to see anyone fail. I agree that there are cheap ways of getting into the hobby, but even at that level there are fundamental things you need to do lieu of something else like a skimmer (regular waterchanges) The addition of supplements, nutrient export. Which all in the long run adds up. I always tell friends who come by and are dazzled by my tank, who are considering setting one up for themselves that this is liekly one of the most expensive hobbies to get into. Ive added my bills up and over the last three years and have spent something like 11,000 dollars on equipment and live stock and ive only got a 90 gallon and chose to go the "medium route on most things) im guessing that my total doesnt hold a candle to what some people spend on theirs.

All i am saying is think long and hard before making a commitment to this hobby if the time isnt right. Often new people who come upon disaster loose hope and leave the hobby, no one wants to see that. Reefking is a long term hobby some fish will live 20 years, and coral given the proper care, will go on and on. Good luck with your choices and if you choose to continue, welcome to the hobby!

[Slick Fork]

I am a firm believer in the health of our critters. If going the "cheapest possible route" and "seeing if i can do it" or squeaking by just barely means your critters will suffer then they are better left in the ocean or at the store. We have a responsibility as aquarists to provide the best care in our means to these critters, and if that means no skimmer and the fewest waterchanges possible on a small tank you are setting yourself up for disaster. And no one on here wants to see anyone fail. I agree that there are cheap ways of getting into the hobby, but even at that level there are fundamental things you need to do lieu of something else like a skimmer (regular waterchanges) The addition of supplements, nutrient export. Which all in the long run adds up. I always tell friends who come by and are dazzled by my tank, who are considering setting one up for themselves that this is liekly one of the most expensive hobbies to get into. Ive added my bills up and over the last three years and have spent something like 11,000 dollars on equipment and live stock and ive only got a 90 gallon and chose to go the "medium route on most things) im guessing that my total doesnt hold a candle to what some people spend on theirs.

All i am saying is think long and hard before making a commitment to this hobby if the time isnt right. Often new people who come upon disaster loose hope and leave the hobby, no one wants to see that. Reefking is a long term hobby some fish will live 20 years, and coral given the proper care, will go on and on. Good luck with your choices and if you choose to continue, welcome to the hobby!

Well Put

[moldrik]

I highly agree. With my tank, the only thing that I need to be careful with is space, so I don't have a lot of room to work with, so I need a compact system for skimming, etc.. However, I would definately spend the money. I love fish and I want to make sure that I have the right stuff to keep them healthy and happy.

I can see his perspective that he wants to keep a tank and he is low on funds. And yeah, the "responsible" route is to not get one, save your money, and invest it or something ( stocks are really low right now! ).

The more you cut corners and the more you cheap out, the worst of a headache you will have and the more money you will spend in the end replacing stuff that doesn't work as well as it should. So really, investing that extra $40 here and there, in the end, will save you money.

For you, living the student life, I think it's a matter of buying one thing at a time, for the right price, until you got most things ready to go.

Someone mentioned this as well, but if I wanted to go cheap, I would cut the sump/refugium that you're planning on setting up. You don't NEED it, and the keyword here is that: NEED. You WANT to keep an aquarium, so what do you NEED to keep it running properly, with good water condition, for the next X years ( right, years ).
________
Suzuki GT380 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_GT380)

[Myka]

1) Are T8 bulbs even available in higher colour temperatures such as 20K? I intend to go DIY lighting. I am aware that there is T12NO bulbs available from the fish stores but they are still like $20 each. If T8s are available I intend to OD them. However I might luckout and pickup some lighting for super cheap. You never know afterall.

Check out T5 setups. Coralife and Hagen put out cheap (but still usable!!!) units. Just make sure they are "high output", and will be 39w for each bulb in the 36" length. They are efficient lights, and the bulbs need to be replaced less often than T8 or T12. If you get one bulb you can keep softies, and a couple lower light LPS. If you get a dual bulb unit then you can keep any LPS you want, and maybe the odd SPS (the SOS will prob be mostly brown...montis do pretty good though).

2) For healthy DSBs is aragonite necessary? Does anyone have experience with sand beds composed of play sand? Play sand is still relatively fine and the small critters might not mind the fact that its not of the ideal composition. Aragonite will be in the display for aesthetic, livestock and chemistry purposes.

You will get a lot of different opinions on this topic. My opinon on the matter: DSBs are kind of "old school". Definately not needed, and are often not done properly, so are ultimately useless. Play sand is a perfect example of not doing it right. Personally, I wouldn't bother. Just a regular aragonite 1-2" sandbed with some feather dusters and chaeto should do the trick.

3) What is a cheap return pump that will be capable of delivering 600+gph at 4' of head? I was contemplating a Quiet One 4000 but I have been reading some unfavourable reviews about them. Are there any better or EVEN CHEAPER choices out there? It can be a sh*ity pump if its dirt cheap. I intend to use no powerheads and this return will be the only source of flow. Maybe a SCWD can be plumbed in if I can get one for CHEAP.

I would say the Quiet One is your best bet at that price range. Try looking for a used Poseidon. I found one for $100.

4) Where can I get a glass hole saw? How much would it cost me?

Try www.bulkreefsupply.com they are about $12-18 if I remember correctly. Check out their shipping policies to Canada. Real good deals.

Anyway please don't say "blah blah get a bubbleking" because its simply not feasible for me at the moment. Part of the fun comes from trying to do something with the least possible so I view this as a challenge.

Thanks for reading :mrgreen:

You aren't asking too much at all. You should do just fine. :)

[NewGuy]

I appreciate everyones' honest opinions. People get passionate about things they care about and I can appreciate that as long as theres a level of civility and decorum even if we are on the anonymous web. So far no issues. :mrgreen:

Perhaps I came off as too desperate and too cash strapped. I am a full-time student but a returning student rather than someone out of highschool so I am not completely destitute. Honestly, I could buy the Bubbleking without going on a cup noodle diet. Should I be buying it? maybe not, but could I buy it? then probably yes.

What my intention is is to try and do things a bit differently. I know that T5HOs are the ideal flourescent fixture for a reef setup as everyone has said and I have read everywhere. However, I am challenging myself to do something for the lowest cost possible. This is something that I have found myself to enjoy. That means T8s and all the other stuff I mentioned. Would I be better off going with T5s in terms of setting up a successful reef? Absolutely. Would it be more interesting to see if I could do it with T8s? In my point of view yes. Beyond a better form factor and higher light concentrations I don't really see why T8s cannot function just as well as T5s when brilliant light isn't needed and the colours are right. I always intended to use 10K+ lamps no matter what. This is a intellectual exercise at the moment anyway since I don't even know where or if I can get T8 lamps such as these.

Thanks for the opinions on the DSB. If I go ahead that means no DSB for me. Also regarding the water changes, I meant what I said about the least number of changes possible, but it would really depend on how things go.

As for the ethical argument regarding keeping livestock in the best possible conditions. It is a good and valid argument against what I propose. It is something I will continue to consider. However, if everyone truly put the well being of the animals above other considerations then this website should not exist at all since they all belong in the seas. What I mean to say is that this is a highly subjective area and every person will come up with a different answer.

Oh yeah thats moldrik for your lengthy posts

[Myka]

As for the ethical argument regarding keeping livestock in the best possible conditions. It is a good and valid argument against what I propose. It is something I will continue to consider. However, if everyone truly put the well being of the animals above other considerations then this website should not exist at all since they all belong in the seas. What I mean to say is that this is a highly subjective area and every person will come up with a different answer.

Oh yeah thats moldrik for your lengthy posts

Just after reading your last post here (I didn't read anyone's replies lol), the ethical thoughts came to mind. Do remember that most of the critters you buy are stolen out of the wild reefs. I have a hard time thinking about it sometimes, and have a hard time justifying stealing these creatures from the oceans.

One thing I forgot to mention is that you will probably need to use powerheads, and also it doesn't make sense to spend the money on a SCWD if you're trying to do it on a budget (for whatever reason).

EDIT: Ok I went back and read some of your replies:

I obviously want to go T5HO and I have looked into it but its still pricey unless I find a cheap used setup. For a 4 lamp setup the bulbs alone will be around $120 after tax not to mention the ballasts and endcaps. I know that I can overdrive 4 T8 lamps for around $70 in ballasts. It all depends on whether such lamps exist and how much they cost. I believe that 4 T8 lamps overdriven 2X (or more with another $35 dollar ballast) will be reasonably close in lighting to T5HO especially when no individual reflectors are involved.

Also I want to do the least amount of waterchanges possible since salt is expensive :twised:. I will also be using TAPWATER DUM DUM DUUUUUM!!. Vancouver water is really quite pure. If you look at the reports nitrates are usually below 0.1ppm and phosphate is undetectable by analytical methods so I believe it to be "good enough for now".

Be aware that overdriving bulbs greatly decreases the bulb life. Over driven by 2x T8s should be replaced every 5-6 months. T5s are good for 12 months. Coralife T5 fixtures come with bulbs, and aren't expensive. There is no reasonyou need 4 T5s bulbs over your tank, so you can't even compare 4 T5s to 4 T8s. That's like comparing 500HP in a semi truck to 500HP in a car. Totally different. ONE T5 bulb would have about the same PAR as THREE T8 bulbs.

Lots of people use Vancouver tap water with success. It will be much more difficult though with few waterchanges and no skimmer.

Sorry, but I do think you are being a bit ignorant to the health of the potential animals in your care. Just taking a few simple steps would hugely increase their chances of living healthy. OR, you could do what you plan, but don't keep any fish. Keep macroalgaes, feather dusters, sponges, gorgonians, etc. Critters that LIKE nutrient rich water, and don't require large amounts of light to be happy.

[ron101]

ONE T5 bulb would have about the same PAR as THREE T8 bulbs.


Are you saying that T5 technology is three times as efficient as T8 technology?

[rstar]

Sorry, but I do think you are being a bit ignorant to the health of the potential animals in your care. Just taking a few simple steps would hugely increase their chances of living healthy. OR, you could do what you plan, but don't keep any fish. Keep macroalgaes, feather dusters, sponges, gorgonians, etc. Critters that LIKE nutrient rich water, and don't require large amounts of light to be happy.

I have to agree with Myka. My comment was not meant to be rude or crazy passionate or anything, but if you are looking for a hobby "just to see" if you can get by on the skin of your teeth and do it just for a challenge this is not it. And if you do have the means to give your critters a greater chance at living healthy then the responsibility falls on you to do so, and i dont understand why you wouldnt want to do that for them, especially if you have no experience in the hobby. as far as the catch 22 of all of us stealing from the oceans, most aquarist will agree that we learn more from giving our corals and fish the best chance they can have, and are slowly moving to a point where more fish and corals are available that are grown and bred in captivity than are not. And as Myka said if its still your choice to go forward with your plan please choose your livestock well go with animals that thrive in nutrient rich envirnments and dont require alot of light!

[bignose]

Take your time and find the equipment as it shows up if you can't afford everything. I've been working on a new tank for 5 months now. I've found everything locally online and easily saved hundreds.

[Skimmerking]

Well Welcome to Canreef and I hope you have seen something in this hobby like everyone has seen to get them to where they are at today. I am going to give you a few pointers if you don't mind. With everyone here on this board we all have something in common that is we love this hobby. We are all trying to keep a piece of the ocean in our tanks if we can. In order to keep some of these tanks you need lots of Time, Lots of money, lots of heart and what every one has is Lots of Reading. I think that i went almost 12 months of reading before i took the plunge in to salt water. Why, Because I didn't want to make the mistakes that everyone else ran into. but you will sooner or later cutting corners or lighting ,skimming ,Rock ,Salt, All I can tell you that you need to take you take which I see that you are doing. READ, READ, READ then price out what you see yourself with. Then price out what you see yourself buying. Then price out what you see yourself getting or that you can afford.

IMO/IME I think the best times on the net is looking at what equipment is cheapest on line. And seeing how much you can get it for

But at the end of the day we can't not tell you what to buy that is your own decision. We can give you excellent idea's and point you in the right direction hoping that you are going to follow our advice. So good luck and have a great hobby if you desire to start into it. Patience, patience is the key to this hobby and finding out who is getting out of the hobby so you can get their systems with great equipment and a wicked price too.

[michika]

If you go with a sandbed skip out on the playsand. Its silica based, which down the road will cause you problems.

[superduperwesman]

In this hobby "as cheap as possible" = costing more. The more your try to avoid spending the more you'll spend.

As much as you'd like to JUST do this, and JUST do that it's a cosmetic hobby so JUST doing the bare minimum kinda defeats the entire purpose. Because who JUST wants to look at there tank all day when it looks like junk.

[fishoholic]

While the idea of "trying to do something just to see if it can be done" might be challenging to you, ultimately IMO this is the wrong hobby to do it in. Could you set up a cheep SW tank yes, would it be worth the effort your talking about to find cheep stuff and DYI T8 lights etc. then personally no.

Lets say you get the tank up and running the way you're setting out to do. In the long run I am certain you will have problems with algae and nutrient spikes. Then your challenge will be having to deal with these problems, are you prepared for that? If you are and you understand that you may need to upgrade some equipment to help with potential problems, then I say go for it and see what happens.

One thing I have to say though is: no skimmer = regular 10% weekly water changes. If you are against water changes and you have the money then buy a good skimmer. Although realize even with a good skimmer you will still need to do water changes (at the very least) once a month.

I don't think you need a lot of money to run a small sw tank set up if you are willing to put in the time to take care of it. If you don't have a lot of time then spend the money on a more self efficient system.

On a side note if you do get really addicted to this hobby then be forewarned of the thousands if not tens of thousands you'll end up sinking into it. I literally went from saying five years ago (to my boyfriend) that I hate the noise of fish tanks and I will never ever have one in my house. Well when he first move in I felt bad for him because he was sad about leaving his 10g fw tank behind at his parents. So I let him set it up in the living room, 3 fw tanks and two years later he said we should try sw. So we started off with a 60g and went about mid point for equipment.

Fast forward 3 years about $15-20 thousand dollars and two 230g tanks later..... Well lets just say if you do get addicted be aware of the amount you never ever would of ever dreamed of spending on salt water fish tanks. For example: This was myself when I was first starting off "What $20.00 for a fish!!!! $200.00 for lighting are you crazy!!!!" to now "$170.00 for a 8" Sohal that's not too bad" "$1500.00 for a six foot 3 250w bulb Giesemann MH light fixture, ok if that's what we need" :surprise: :eek: *sigh* Still not sure how I went from one state of mind to the other but I tell you, it definitely happens!

Sorry for the long post but I thought I'd share my opinion and experience. Thanks, Laurie