sand or bare glass bottom? [Archive] - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

Whatigot

11-25-2008, 03:11 PM

Sand can actually help a lot.
Aragonite breaks down, introducing trace elements and calcium naturally to your system.

It also can host a number of living organisms that are beneficial to your system as a potential food source for inhabitants or as detritus/waste eaters.

If you have enough sand, it can act as a significant addition to your biofilter as well and help give beneficial bacteria surface area to populate.

I will always put sand into any reef tank I have, not just based on how much better it looks either.

Marlin65

11-25-2008, 03:48 PM

+1 on the sand

kodak

11-26-2008, 12:14 AM

Well.. I will have to give it some more thought...
I will be switching tank from the 10g with 2x hob filters,
which Im using right now to a 10g with an attached glass overflow filter system.
I want to get rid of the hob filters so I've started building the new tank..
Though I think Iwould like to see the tank with sand....

Lance

11-26-2008, 12:22 AM

Undecided. I have a 90 gal reef now with sand. Am in the process of setting up a 225 gal with large fish & softies. Planning on going BB with this tank. Will see which I prefer. If I don't like the BB, can always add sand later.

kodak

11-26-2008, 12:32 AM

Thank you Lance

Does anyone else have an opinion? :)

link to my new tank diagram
http://www.riftzoneaquatics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2915

2manytanks

11-26-2008, 12:57 AM

I also am partial to sand. As someone else said, if done properly it also adds to your capacity of biological filtration. But do a bunch of reading on the internet about sand beds and make up your own mind.

You'll hear a lot of people talking about the lower levels of sand going anaerobic but with the depth you'd likely be using in a nano tank that shouldn't be a problem. In any case, with a deep sand bed the lower anaerobic layer is important to it's proper biological function. Once established, the bacteria that populate the top will remove ammonia and feed nitrite to the next layer down which is populated by bacteria which convert the nitrite to nitrate which is consumed by the anaerobic layer. But to work properly the sand not only has to be live with bacteria but other critters like worms which will channel and mix the sand to allow flow between the different layers.

It also opens up the possibility of having other animals like sand sifting stars, gobies and sand dollars - who will also help keep the sand mixed and clean. With a shallow bed in a nano tank you'll want to keep the sand stirred up to prevent the build up of detritus and stars and gobies can fit right in. I had a 12g tank with both a sand sifting star and a goby, they did just fine and it was a beautiful tank.

Trigs

11-26-2008, 01:16 AM

Tell you the truth I like both! But I love the sand look makes it look really clean plus a little easier to clean I find =)

AJ_77

11-26-2008, 01:28 AM

I would have agreed with you until recently - I cleaned the sandbed out of the tank I just got (1-2 inches' worth of aragonite). It was aboot 18 months old, and the filth that came out of that nearly made me puke. The tank was well-maintained and filtered, B-King skimmer etc... what I would consider "clean," but that nasty skunky leftover toxic mud made me think twice. Just too gross to contemplate.

I think it was a wise moderator here who once said, "how can all that trapped black goo be good for my system?"

Thinking of going BB next time (and I usually love all those little critters that inhabit the sand, add to biodiversity and filtration capacity, etc etc...)

mark

11-26-2008, 01:32 AM

I'm BB.

When originally setup my 145g plan was would always add sand later. After bottom started getting covered in coralline ended up don't mind the look and left as is.

Don't think it's necessary for filtration as I'm zero nitrates and no sand in system but there's always the option of a RDSB or sand in the sump. Adding Ca etc, probably doesn't contribute a whole lot specially with the system pH (why Ca reactors add CO2 to dissolve media) and I ran a 75G for years with a DSB and though added some sand over time, wasn't much overall.

Believe the pro/cons for a sand bed is just aesthetics and what you can keep. Love the idea of the shrimp/gobie pair but without sand I'll live without. Also will admit when I see a nice tank with a clean SB think of adding sand to mine, but the urge passes fairly quickly.

Remember there's no reason you can't add a SSB or a DSB later to a established tank if don't like the BB. Better anyway if the LR was placed direct on the glass rather then on the sand where it could settle.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/das75/P9230008.jpg

kodak

11-26-2008, 01:59 AM

Thank you for the info.

Der_Iron_Chef

11-26-2008, 02:51 AM

Big fan of BB here. Will never ever ever have a sandbed, for the same reason mentioned above (dismantled well-maintained tank and it was foul). Besides, I tend to go for the more modern aesthetic, which fits nicely with BB.

kodak

11-26-2008, 04:36 AM

I may just stick to a BB :) Thanks for all the helpfull info..

Aquattro

11-26-2008, 04:58 AM

I think it was a wise moderator here who once said, "how can all that trapped black goo be good for my system?"

No, I think I said that.

I went BB on my last tank and loved it, then my new tank I waffled and added sand. After 8 months, I've removed it with all the black goo. It was disgusting!

superduperwesman

11-26-2008, 05:05 AM

+1 for Sand

Borderjumper

11-26-2008, 05:14 AM

No, I think I said that.

I went BB on my last tank and loved it, then my new tank I waffled and added sand. After 8 months, I've removed it with all the black goo. It was disgusting!
:lol:

Trigger Man

11-26-2008, 05:40 AM

I like BB for ease of cleaning, sand always looks good when clean, but after hearing about the black goo even in well maintained sand tanks I'm happy with my choice.

Marlin65

11-26-2008, 05:40 AM

No, I think I said that.

I went BB on my last tank and loved it, then my new tank I waffled and added sand. After 8 months, I've removed it with all the black goo. It was disgusting!

Black goo is good for growth on corals. I just stirred up all the goo in my sump and my corals loved it they fed and just opened right up with lots of polyp extension.
Just my 2 cents everyone has their own way though.

kodak

11-26-2008, 02:43 PM

Thanks again everyone! :)

Whatigot

11-26-2008, 03:06 PM

lol...
what do you guys figure happens to all that "black goo" when you don't have a sand bed to trap it?
I suppose it just ceases to exist?
lol...

Reefer Rob

11-26-2008, 03:49 PM

lol...
what do you guys figure happens to all that "black goo" when you don't have a sand bed to trap it?
I suppose it just ceases to exist?
lol...

It's removed by siphoning, filter socks and your skimmer. If you just leave crud to rot in your tank like in a DSB nasty things happen. Better to keep your tank clean IMO. I keep 1/2" to 3/4" of sand in my tank and stir it regularly so nothing builds up. Tried the DSB thing but it didn't work for me. Much lower nitrates, and a cleaner tank after it was gone. Removing a DSB is one of the most disgusting things you'll ever do!

Whatigot

11-26-2008, 03:56 PM

I think that unless you do it properly, dsb's have no merit.

Why is it that so many like James Tullock in my living microcosm book speak so highly of dsbs?

He does say that you need to install it properly and have enough "critters" to maintain it for you but even with changing it every few years, sounds a lot easier than all that maintenance you are doing.

Man, thats a lot of unnecessary work IMO.

My first tank was a 12 gallon aquapod, no skimmer, MASSIVE bioload and a DSB.
That tank was a brick, I credit the ability of that thing to keep everything I ever put into it alive to the dsb that it had.
I had 2 clowns, clown goby, gramma, red reef star, peppermint shrimps and a boxfish not to mention a tonne of coral (all came with it when I bought it and I didn't know better then).
The dsb in that thing was probably 5 years old and it provided food, calcium and trace elements and biological filtration for the overcrowded tank perfectly.
I would NEVER set up a nano tank without one now period.

Parker

11-26-2008, 04:23 PM

I have tried both. I liked the look of my last sand bed but the grain size was too small and a pain, blew all over the place. The next tank will have a sand bed but it will be a larger grain size so it stays put.

Doug

11-26-2008, 05:10 PM

Whatigot

11-26-2008, 05:20 PM

So are you saying my nano will fail because I,m bare. :smile: What exactly does the sandbed provide my nano for stability that my bare
bottom does not?

And FWIW, I have used sand beds and bare in previous tanks, including a couple inches in my just down 90g and my 170 that was once featured back in 01 on RC.
Thanks

Congrats on being featured on RC 8 years ago...lol
I stated that my exceptionally overstocked, low tech nano functioned seamlessly with a dsb, where do you see anyone saying that a "nano" (and you are being very general here, I was being very specific) won't work without a dsb?

where?

and i specified a couple fo times in this thread where a dsb is handy, reread the whole thread please as you must have missed it when you read it before your last comment.

mark

11-26-2008, 05:29 PM

Just to comment on DSBs, they're not the big bad scary things they're lately being made as. Had a 4-6" for about 3 years, no special efforts and when I took it down, no sludge or funk.

reefermadness

11-26-2008, 11:26 PM

What ever method you use.......do research and do it right!

Canadian

11-27-2008, 04:41 AM

What ever method you use.......do research and do it right!

Well said.

If you choose to employ a DSB make sure you re-stock it with critters and don't add things like sand-sifting stars, sand dollars, etc. And don't be surprised if over time you end up with an accumulation of phosphate and some kind of algae problem.

If you go BB be sure you make the necessary investments for an incredible skimmer, high flow (with a well designed flow scheme and minimal LR), and preferably a coast-to-coast overflow to ensure that as much suspended detritus makes it to the skimmer as possible. Then be sure siphon out detritus every week (I use an Eheim Sludge Extractor which works great for this with a small modification).

The one thing I will say in comparison between BB and a SSB is that when I had a SSB I had more coralline algae growth. Without sand I get very little coralline algae growing on the glass or back panel but my coral growth has been unaffected. I don't know how this is possible or what could possibly explain the difference though other than maybe my BB tank is nutrient limited and the SSB was helping store and leach some small amounts of nitrate to help fuel the coralline growth.

kodak

11-27-2008, 05:06 AM

Well... I've had an established 10g BB nano running for about 2 months now, it was/is a friends tank :) as for maintaining the tank for the last 2 months, I've had no major issues to speak of.. I am new to salt but I have kept african cichlids almost exclusively for the past 9-10 years.. Since this neat little salt tank was transplanted into my livingroom, already containing 6x 6 foot cichlid tanks and a 72g as well, not to mention one of the bedrooms... The little tank started to grow on me and the maintenance was not all that much for a tank of this size. I started to get a little curious of how difficult it would be to get one going... The tank & filters were just sitting around, so I set it up.. It's a 10g with 2x hob filters, live rock in one HOB, Caulerpain and small bag of aragonite in the other (all from a friends established tank) 15lbs LR from that same established tank, and water from the same tank, I have a single clown fish and a single pom pom crab, a few very small things on the LR besides a bit of coraline algae..

I like the idea of sand as far as asthetics are concerned, plus the extra critters in the sandbed. Still thinking.... :)

mark

11-27-2008, 05:17 AM

Canadian, I'm BB lots of coralline, bottom is covered where lit.

Marlin65

11-27-2008, 05:41 AM

Well said.

If you choose to employ a DSB make sure you re-stock it with critters and don't add things like sand-sifting stars, sand dollars, etc. And don't be surprised if over time you end up with an accumulation of phosphate and some kind of algae problem.

If you go BB be sure you make the necessary investments for an incredible skimmer, high flow (with a well designed flow scheme and minimal LR), and preferably a coast-to-coast overflow to ensure that as much suspended detritus makes it to the skimmer as possible. Then be sure siphon out detritus every week (I use an Eheim Sludge Extractor which works great for this with a small modification).

The one thing I will say in comparison between BB and a SSB is that when I had a SSB I had more coralline algae growth. Without sand I get very little coralline algae growing on the glass or back panel but my coral growth has been unaffected. I don't know how this is possible or what could possibly explain the difference though other than maybe my BB tank is nutrient limited and the SSB was helping store and leach some small amounts of nitrate to help fuel the coralline growth.

Great post interesting info don't agree with the sand siffting though. Did you have the same light in each of your BB and SSB tanks? I find the watts and K's play a big part in the coraline growth.

Doug

11-27-2008, 02:16 PM

Congrats on being featured on RC 8 years ago...lol

I just mention that, to show I,m also a fan of dsb. Not sure whats funny about it.

I stated that my exceptionally overstocked, low tech nano functioned seamlessly with a dsb, where do you see anyone saying that a "nano" (and you are being very general here, I was being very specific) won't work without a dsb?

where?

I was asking a question as you said I would NEVER, {big letters}, set up a nano without one, thats all.

and i specified a couple fo times in this thread where a dsb is handy, reread the whole thread please as you must have missed it when you read it before your last comment.

I would think I know a fair bit about a dsb, just debating the need for it to provide stability in any specific aquarium.

Anyways, I just wrote a large piece on sandbeds but took it out. Been in enough of these discussions over the years and there,s plenty of info on them in the RC threads, and in our links on here for those that wish to read up on them.

I agree with the latter posts, {whatever method you use, research it and do it right.}

Canadian

11-27-2008, 03:01 PM

Canadian, I'm BB lots of coralline, bottom is covered where lit.

Great post interesting info don't agree with the sand siffting though. Did you have the same light in each of your BB and SSB tanks? I find the watts and K's play a big part in the coraline growth.

Yeah I've had several reef tanks over the past 10 years and they've all been DSB or SSB. I've always had uncontrollable coralline algae growth. Since starting this BB tank a year ago I have had sporadic coralline algae growth. At one point in time when I moved several months ago I re-set up the tank with a SSB for aesthetics. In the first few weeks I had a spurt of coralline growth on the back panel but I also saw how much crap was accumulating in the sand bed (and yes I had lots of nassarius snails, ceriths, hermits, etc.) so I yanked it all. Since then my coralline growth has again diminished on the glass but does grow on the rocks. Coral growth remains the same. I did/do suffer from some pale coloration of some of my SPS which may be due to a very low nutrient system and is the only explanation I can come up with for the lack of coralline growth.

As far as adding sand sifting stars and sand dollars to a DSB is concerned: take a look at the recommendations for proper husbandry of a DSB by Ron Shimek. Firstly, both white sand sifting stars and sand dollars are generally inappropriate for a reef aquarium - they decimate the infauna in a sand bed and tend to then slowly starve. Secondly, adding anything other than detrivores to a DSB is counterproductive. If you're adding things to "stir" the top layer that's one thing, but if you're adding things that aggressively consume the infauna in the sand bed then you're defeating its purpose of assimilating waste as quickly as possible so it can be processed by bacteria. The pods, worms, microstars, etc. that sand sifting stars and sand dollars are eating are exactly what need to be left in a DSB to help consume waste so your DSB can function efficiently and not solidify.

Whatigot

11-27-2008, 03:30 PM

What ever method you use.......do research and do it right!

Thats definitely the most useful comment on this thread.
I'll maybe try and comment some more when I get a tank featured on RC.

Canadian

11-27-2008, 03:46 PM

Thats definitely the most useful comment on this thread.
I'll maybe try and comment some more when I get a tank featured on RC.

It sounds like you need a hug - you're too angry. *hug*

There, do you feel better now?

Maybe now you can lose just a bit of the attitude and lay off the personal attacks on members who have been here a long time and have helped a lot of people (Doug).

Delphinus

11-27-2008, 04:45 PM

I have 2 tanks with sand and 2 without. One in particular is approaching 7 or 8 years (I can't remember if it was technically 2001 when I set it up or early 2002).

Honestly? That one tank has hit end of life and has hit it hard ... and I'm afraid .. very afraid of the teardown process ahead of me. As been said what can be found in sand that is a mere 8 months old, never mind 8 years. I am hoping to have all fish corals and clams removed before I touch that sand.

I like the aesthetics of sandbeds but that's it and that's all. And in hindsight, it's not worth it, spend the money on extra nice rock or a nice skimmer instead. Barebottom tanks from here on out for me.

spikehs

11-27-2008, 05:04 PM

I love the look of sand, to me bb looks too barren. I think when (if) i ever get a bigger setup, i'm going to have a really thin layer (1cm) of sand and siphon it out every few months.

Doug

11-27-2008, 06:38 PM

I'll maybe try and comment some more when I get a tank featured on RC.

'sigh'. I apologize for even mentioning it, even though its taken out of context of the reason I did.

Thanks Andrew.

kodak

11-27-2008, 07:12 PM

All your info is very helpful..
Thank you

Der_Iron_Chef

11-27-2008, 07:25 PM

'sigh'. I apologize for even mentioning it, even though its taken out of context of the reason I did.

Doug, no need to apologize. You have 'street cred'...and that's not a bad thing...and you're allowed to be proud of your accomplishments, and the level of knowledge and experience that those accomplishments demonstrate.

And here I thought the T5 v. MH debate was bad....

Doug

11-27-2008, 09:15 PM

Thanks Drew. I like the "street cred". Means I have been around to long. :lol:

Anyways, Kodak, have you had a look at these by any chance. They are from our reference library.

http://216.187.96.54/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22060

Marlin65

11-27-2008, 09:44 PM

Yeah I've had several reef tanks over the past 10 years and they've all been DSB or SSB. I've always had uncontrollable coralline algae growth. Since starting this BB tank a year ago I have had sporadic coralline algae growth. At one point in time when I moved several months ago I re-set up the tank with a SSB for aesthetics. In the first few weeks I had a spurt of coralline growth on the back panel but I also saw how much crap was accumulating in the sand bed (and yes I had lots of nassarius snails, ceriths, hermits, etc.) so I yanked it all. Since then my coralline growth has again diminished on the glass but does grow on the rocks. Coral growth remains the same. I did/do suffer from some pale coloration of some of my SPS which may be due to a very low nutrient system and is the only explanation I can come up with for the lack of coralline growth.

As far as adding sand sifting stars and sand dollars to a DSB is concerned: take a look at the recommendations for proper husbandry of a DSB by Ron Shimek. Firstly, both white sand sifting stars and sand dollars are generally inappropriate for a reef aquarium - they decimate the infauna in a sand bed and tend to then slowly starve. Secondly, adding anything other than detrivores to a DSB is counterproductive. If you're adding things to "stir" the top layer that's one thing, but if you're adding things that aggressively consume the infauna in the sand bed then you're defeating its purpose of assimilating waste as quickly as possible so it can be processed by bacteria. The pods, worms, microstars, etc. that sand sifting stars and sand dollars are eating are exactly what need to be left in a DSB to help consume waste so your DSB can function efficiently and not solidify.

I alway thought that the white stars were detrivores eaters. Learn something new every day.:redface:

kodak

11-27-2008, 10:34 PM

Thanks for the link Doug!!!

brizzo

11-27-2008, 11:02 PM

I can't find the article I am thinking of, but there was an interview with Eric B about going skimmer-less and bare bottom. Was a good read regardless of opinion.

Personally I run bare bottom and skimmer-less in my nano with MUCH success. I wouldn't recommend this what so ever for someone who cannot give their tank attention everyday. I'm sure many people out there would disagree with my setup; but I am successful with my tank and have only had one crash (due to hqi lighting and no uv shield, not water quality).

My point here is there isn't a right or wrong, there is pros and cons, but every tank is different; and ultimately, a tank's health is up to the keeper! Sand or no sand, take care of your tank and monitor it! :biggrin:

kodak

11-27-2008, 11:54 PM

The tank I have been taking care of for the past 2 months has a BB and no skimmer.. It's nice to have other hobbyists opinions regarding certain elements of keeping and maintaining a saltwater aquarium.. In cycling a tank, should one expect to see cloudy water and if not, would that mean the tank is past that stage in cycling. As stated in one of my previous posts, my tank has some cured LR in both filters and about 12-15lbs in the tank itself.. the water came from the same established tank that the rock came out of.

Well... I've had an established 10g BB nano running for about 2 months now, it was/is a friends tank :) as for maintaining the tank for the last 2 months, I've had no major issues to speak of.. I am new to salt but I have kept african cichlids almost exclusively for the past 9-10 years.. Since this neat little salt tank was transplanted into my livingroom, already containing 6x 6 foot cichlid tanks and a 72g as well, not to mention one of the bedrooms... The little tank started to grow on me and the maintenance was not all that much for a tank of this size. I started to get a little curious of how difficult it would be to get one going... The tank & filters were just sitting around, so I set it up.. It's a 10g with 2x hob filters, live rock in one HOB, Caulerpain and small bag of aragonite in the other (all from a friends established tank) 15lbs LR from that same established tank, and water from the same tank, I have a single clown fish and a single pom pom crab, a few very small things on the LR besides a bit of coraline algae..

I like the idea of sand as far as asthetics are concerned, plus the extra critters in the sandbed. Still thinking.... :)