cycling.... few questions

[e46er]

so i have a 120 G and am using seachem reef salt
with 120 lbs rock and 150 lbs sand cycling and i have been using cycle as per directions.... and i had no die off from my rock after 10 days becuase it was kept in a 55G barrel with no circulation for a long period of time
well i used pure ammonia as my ammonia source which i cycled my planted tank with so after a week or so these were my test results

ph 7.7 was 8.2 last week?
ammonia 6.1ppm checking daily and it drops so i add a little bit more to keep it around 5.6-6.1
nitrite buried on scale at 3.3 ppm
nitrate buried on scale at 110 ppm
KH 80 ppm
Ca 420 ppm

im not sure what caused the ph to drop any ideas?


i have no tank inhabitants so i dont need to do a WC during the cycle to drop the nitrates do i? just a huge one at end of cycle possibly 2 or 3 to get the nitrates down?

also i seem to have red looking stuff growing on certain parts of my tank im guessing this is the no flow areas??

i went to the LFS today and grabbed some loc line Y so now i have 4 outlets from ym sump return and 4 outlets from my closed loop should be enough outlets for a 4 foot tank.......

also my alk should be slightly higher maybe seachem reef builder since my salt obviously isnt buffering it high enough...thoughtsÉÉ
thanks in advance

[Aquattro]

pH is dropping from the NH3 concentration. Why are you adding this? If you had cured rock, you could have just added it and waited a few days. Once NH3/NO2 hits 0, add a small fish. NO3 is way off the deep end, I'd stop adding ammonia and get on with the tank. Do a really good water change, ideally you want 0 on all three parameters.

[moldrik]

From what i've read so far, while cycling doing water changes help out. These shouldn't be major water changes, but something along the line of 10-20% every week.

If you think about it, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, etc, will remain in the water, by doing water changes, you're removing these components out of it and bringing in fresh water which will help remove these from the tank and should help stabilize things further.

Ph changing so much can be just part of the cycle itself. There are several components that help buffer the PH in order to maintain a stable system that takes a while to develop. So even though, one day you'll measure a good PH value, a few days later things will be different.

I haven't tried adding ammonia to my tank, and I probably won't. The LR that I picked up was fairly developed and had been in tanks for a really long time, so I figured it would be counter intuitive to artificially raise the ammonia levels, and I'm letting things go in a more natural route.

I also would think that adding ammonia, it's something that you would do at the beginning but not continuously add more. Basically, the concept is to put some in there to help the nitrifying bacteria to start doing their job, which will start the whole nitrite-nitrate cycle.

From what I've read as well, you don't want to use huge amounts of ammonia, and a good way to go about it, is to just drop a dead shrimp or something ( from a supermarket ) which will help release natural ammonia and help out the bacteria do their job.
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[e46er]

the rock wasnt cured at all it was live at one point becuase its purple but it had been in stagnat water for months no heat no flow no aireation but it was added and no ammonia for 2 weeks.
i added the ammonia to start the cycle same as ive done for all my fresh tanks.. when i said i added it to keep up 5-6 ppm i have only done it for a few days and thats all ive always done sorry it was worded wrong..

[Aquattro]

Then, as mentioned, you should have just added a bit (or a dead shrimp) to get things going. Right now you're elevating levels way above what they need to be, and if you've converted that much NH3 into NO3, youhve plenty of bacteria now. Back off adding anything, let NH3 and NO2 drop to 0, do some water changes to lower NO3 and add maybe a couple of hermits, or your first small fish.

[moldrik]

Your readings are off the charts though, as Aquattro said, doing a major water change will probably set things in the right course. Make sure that your water is getting decent aeration as well, adding an airstone might help get the necessary oxygen in the tank.
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[e46er]

ok thanks guys

[Myka]

Holy shitballs! That's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much ammonia!! In a saltwater tank, when cycling you don't want ammonia over 2 ppm, and you don't want to add ammonia repeatedly to keep it there either. When using ammonia to cycle a tank, you just do the one initial dose, and don't repeat it. There are a lot of differences between a saltwater and a freshwater tank, so don't assume that what you did with your freshwater tank will be what you need to do with your saltwater tank. You would be surprised how much can survive in a bin with no heat or circulation, but if there was any remaining life on that live rock it is now dead after adding all that ammonia.

Having said that I would suggest you do several 75% waterchanges every day until your numbers are in line. I'm betting you will have to do these daily 75% waterchanges for a week...maybe more. Don't add anything alive to the tank (hermits, snails, fish, ANYTHING) until you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and <10ppm nitrates. I would also suggest you keep the tank lights off, and shade the tank if it gets any natural light until your numbers are correct.

Also, read the Cycling link in my signature.

[e46er]

ok so after a few large water changes im at
ph 8.2
alk 90 ppm 5 dkh
ammonia .3ppm
nitrite .1 ppm
nitrate 5 ppm
SG 1.025

[Myka]

That's looking a lot better! You probably have another week or two before your cycle finishes. Make sure your ammonia and nitrite are both at 0 before adding a small clean up crew. What kind of salt are you using? Your alkalinity is low. I like to keep mine between 8-9 dKH. You're going to need a buffer to bring that up, but don't bother until your cycle is over. I use SeaChem Reef Buffer. Works well. You might want to take a look at two part Cal/Alk solutions as well like C-Balance.

[moldrik]

Yeah, I'm happy to hear that you've done a significant ammount of water changes, your parameters are looking a lot better than before.
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[e46er]

i use seachem reef salt i use a few of their products for my planted tank and am happy with them hence why i chose their salt

i threw the rock in a month ago and nothing happened for 2 weeks then the ammonia trama happened could thecycle possibly be open as soon as next week? i was under the impression it would take close to 2 months?

also this is the LFS http://www.jlaquatics.com/info/250/Reef+Custodians.html what do you reccomend as far as a clean up crew??

i have a 120 G tank with a 40 G sump but their 100-150G package seems crazy excessive 115 hermits and 90 snails?

[moldrik]

I would add them as you see fit. Do you have a lot of algea in the tank? Are there any problems that bringing in a clean up crew is required? I would suggest adding some snails, maybe 1 per 5 gallons, or something like that. Add enough for 1/2 of the tank, if they aren't maintaining it properly, add more later. There is no sense for you to bring in a ridiculous number of new critters into your system. It might throw your cycle off whack, since it's a young tank. As I've heard, I probably wouldn't even add cleaners unless you're trying to solve an issue.

Start with a small, hardy fish for your tank, possibly some snails. You want to add your smallest fish first, biggest fish should be the one you add last so that the territories work out. Corals, add later. If you're gonna add any clean up crew, add snails. Crabs will attack other critters as well, so you don't want too many otherwise they'll fight. You want to balance things out.
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[moldrik]

Here's a link to a thread discussing J&L's clean up crew package.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46769
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[e46er]

yea thank you i read that after i posted my question and then my wireless kicked out so i didnt bother to try and get it back and edit...
i have a little bit of red looking algae which i assume was from huge amounts of ammonia or lack of flow but since then i grabbed a few loc line tees and now i have 4 outlets from my sump return and 4 from my CL and it seems to be doing the trick.


that makes sense on 1 per 5 G for half tank why waste money if unnessessary

[ElGuappo]

Have you only added the rock from the barrel? did you add any live snad or rock to seed the rest of this rock? chances are after being stagnant for that long are that all your organisms have died off therefore there is no good bacteria to cycle this tank which would be why you didnt see anything when you added the rocks. in my experiences i notice the tank starts to cycle on the second day after adding rock .

Please soemone correct me if i am wrong.

[moldrik]

If his nitrites and nitrates were high and they are coming down that means that there are denitrifying bacteria in his tank. Which is technically what we're trying to achieve (minimally) from a cycle.

I've been wanting to really put some fish in my tank ( all my stuff is at 0 ) and my dKH is at a good level, etc.. But a hitchhiker feather duster that was in my tank split yesterday into 2, I noticed a lot more brittle stars and there are now what they seem like copepods swimming and running around the tank.

So, I'm gonna let the tank sit there, growing on its own for a while further. In the end, I think that's what we want to achieve before adding anything, creating that microcosm where there are a lot of different types of organisms, all playing different parts.
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[Myka]

i use seachem reef salt i use a few of their products for my planted tank and am happy with them hence why i chose their salt

i threw the rock in a month ago and nothing happened for 2 weeks then the ammonia trama happened could thecycle possibly be open as soon as next week? i was under the impression it would take close to 2 months?

also this is the LFS http://www.jlaquatics.com/info/250/Reef+Custodians.html what do you reccomend as far as a clean up crew??

i have a 120 G tank with a 40 G sump but their 100-150G package seems crazy excessive 115 hermits and 90 snails?


I'm not familiar with the SeaChem salt. I use Instant Ocean. It lacks a bit in calcium, but it's still the cheapest even after adding the needed calcium. I've tried many other brands over the years, and never noticed a difference, so I always went back to the IO. IO has an alkalinity level of about 10-11 dKH when mixed at 1.026, so that works for me. Just be sure to up your alkalinity before you add corals, or if you're noticing algae issues.

The red algae you're getting is likely cyanobacteria. It's not actually an algae. It is a sign of excess nutrients (as with all algaes), likely caused by the huge amount of nitrate you had in there recently. Take aread through the Hair Algae Guide in my signature for advice on dealing with all algaes and cyano.

LFS's ideas of a cleanup crew are to make money. You don't need that many critters. If you buy that many, then many of them will perish from starvation. Be aware that hermit crabs will often eat snails to steal their shells, or if the hermits are hungry from lack of food in the tank. I prefer snails to hermits, so I don't keep hermits in my tank. My personal reccommendation for your tank would be:

10 Astrea
15 Cerith
15 Nassarius
2 Brittle Stars


Then in 3 months add:

3 Cleaner shrimp (added benefit of cleaning some of your fish of parasites)
3 Peppermint shrimp (added benefit of eating small aiptasia that may grow in your tank)
2 Fighting or Orange Lip conches
More snails if needed


I just put a couple green Emerald crabs in my tank to hopefully help with Bubble Algae, and I have noticed they sure spend a lot of time picking at the rocks and eating several different types of algaes, so I may add these to my "must have" list of clean up crew. so that's another thought as a hermit crab replacement. Ring Cowries are another "snail" I really like. J&L often has them in stock. Wait until your tank is a few months old at least though as they can be sensitive.

[e46er]

ok thanks for the replys guys!!

[e46er]

ok my ammonia is at zero nitrite at 0 and nitrates are 5 ppm looks like the cycle is complete!!