Bugs!!

[Aquattro]

Dipped a small acro tonight in an Iodine solution. This pic shows what came off. Each little speck is one of the dreaded acro bugs. Notice the large pile in the center of the container.

http://www.islandreef.ca/post/bugs.jpg

[AJ_77]

That's a lot of bugs!
:eek:
Can see the cause for your concern now...

[EmilyB]

HOLY SHITE MARTHA... :eek: I think my triggers would like those.... :biggrin:

[Acro]

Brad, How's the coral look that had the bugs on it? Both prior and post dip. Also what % water to iodine and what % iodine did you use? Sure looks like a freaken lot of bugs thats for sure. :eek:

[Aquattro]

Jamie, the coral has been declining for a while, so I moved it to a lower light area. It still continued to fade, so I decided to dip it tonight. It's polyps were extended, but only a fraction of what it used to be like. Some branches were almost white. I used about a liter of tank water and added ~2ml of tincture of Iodine (bottle says B.P. 2.5%). I dipped the coral in this for about 1 minute while splashing with a turkey baster. It was then returned to the tank.
So far it is a bit slimey, although some polyps are starting to come out again after about 30 minutes. This has been typical of the previous dips I've performed.
All this will do is buy the coral a bit more time, as it will become re-infested with the bugs. Lesson to be learned is dip BEFORE putting it in the tank, not after.
The idea of dosing my whole tank has crossed my mind, although that would kill all microfauna, not just the bugs. I hate these bugs!! :neutral:

[Canadian Man]

Brad,
Any idea if this type of dip would kill flatworm infested corals? Or at least be a preventative thing to do to all sps before introducing to ones tank?

[Aquattro]

Jon, I think Wendell's idea of epsom salt baths might be better for flatworms. When you get a frag of acro, you'll be able to see the bugs with a magnifying glass...if they're present, then Iodine is the only thing that kills them (so far). I would recommend putting any new frag in some tank water in a separate contaier for a visual inspection before transferring it to the tank.
Also, when you get a frag with flatworms, they are on the base/rock/plug, not the coral. I break all new frags off the base as soon as I get them. Remount to your own plug, and you should be safe. I'd also prefer to have flatworms over these bugs!!

[Canadian Man]

Jon, I think Wendell's idea of epsom salt baths might be better for flatworms. When you get a frag of acro, you'll be able to see the bugs with a magnifying glass...if they're present, then Iodine is the only thing that kills them (so far). I would recommend putting any new frag in some tank water in a separate contaier for a visual inspection before transferring it to the tank.
Also, when you get a frag with flatworms, they are on the base/rock/plug, not the coral. I break all new frags off the base as soon as I get them. Remount to your own plug, and you should be safe. I'd also prefer to have flatworms over these bugs!!

:eek: Really?
I suppose I understand the reason, If these little red bugs are killing/bothering your corals. So flatworms don't venture onto corals just rock? Any idea why? That helps a bunch!

[Aquattro]

Jon, I figured that the corals will sting the flatworms or they just can't adhere to a slimey surface. Anytime I've brought home a frag with flatworms, they have only been on the base, never on the coral. Perhaps others can tell us I'm wrong, but I think I'm right. However, it is still a good idea to dip and/or quarantine any new livestock.

[bongy]

Hi Brad,

Do you know whether epsom salt dip completely kills the bug? If not, that mean that whenever I take an acro frag home, I need to dip it in epsom AND iodine.

Bongy

[Jack]

WOW. Thats a lot of bugs!

[MitchM]

Has no one been able to id these yet?

Mitch

[MitchM]

Brad, are you aware of this thread?

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39956&perpage=25&pagenumber=10

Mitch

[Aquattro]

Mitch, yes, I am aware of that (and every other) thread. Nobody has ID'ed them yet, other than they are a type of copepod. I think Ron Shimek is claiming that there are two bugs that look the same..the other is an amphipod though.
I'm currently running a test tank to see if I can kill them based on some clues in the thread you linked to.
Although some people claim they don't do any damage, most people I've spoken with believe they do. We need to figure out a way to get rid of these bugs!!

[Acro]

Hey Brad,

Just to clarify my veiws on the bugs. I do beleive they cause damage. I just beleive they are more of an opportunist and attack corals that are less then happy to begin with. I've personally witnessed corals that have appeared damaged from the bugs but after moving or changeing something with water issues that coral is no longer bothered or appears that way at least to me. The coral may still have the bugs on them but it would appear that they no longer bother the coral to the point it's visial. With a fully stock reef it's tough to make everything happy even if the corals are from the same genus. With out the bugs it may not be so clear on which corals are not as happy but the bugs are the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. I beleive that a system is far better with out the bugs but certainly not the end of the world.

[Aquattro]

Jamie, I tend to agree in part, but I don't think they're oppurtunistic. Some of the worst affected corals were the fastest growing. I did take a large branch of the colony this dipped pic came from and put it ina 5g on my window sill. Tons of algae growing and the temp hits 93F during the late afternoon...it is recovering very well and is still covered in bugs!! Zoox seem to be repopulating and the coral is getting a lot of pigment back. Really weird.
Some of my pieces are covered and continue to grow and retain all color, so I can't really say for sure why some do poorly and others don't. As far as I can tell, all the acropora in my tank are infested. Only three, maybe four, appear to suffer. I'm certainly getting annoyed by them, and hopefully formulate a plan to get rid of them.

[MitchM]

I used to have a 6 line wrasse that picked over any SPS that I added to my tank. I haven't read the thread, but I'm curious as to whether or not that would work for you.

Mitch

[Aquattro]

Mitch, it hasn't worked for anyone that tried it. I believe the bugs are too small to be considered food by most fish. Besides, six-lines are bad for the rest of the (good) bugs :razz:
Some people report that yellow clown gobies might work, but I think the concensus is they bother acros as much as the bugs do!!

[MitchM]

Too bad. :confused:

I assume it's the same with dragonnets.

....maybe I wouldn't take a frag from you..... :razz:
(j/k)
I'd be interested to play around with those bugs myself.

Mitch

[Aquattro]

Mitch, I do have a mandarin, and it shows no interest in the bugs.
How exactly would you play with the bugs? If you have any ideas, I can send you some!

[Acro]

Brad, you could be correct on that not sure. But will tell you that the first piece I got with bugs on them no longer have a healthy population of the bugs and are a couple of my favorite peices. These corals never reinfested to original populations. I do have a couple pieces that do have heavy populations of the bugs but yet are still very colorful. I have never to my knowledge lost a single coral to these bugs and I have had them for well over a year. Perhaps oppurtunistic is not the correct word to use here. But again feel if a coral is less then happy and am geussing producing something or not producing something to protect the coral or just plain weaker these are the coral were the bugs collect. I think one of the common things on RC threads about the bugs are they never noticed them until x coral wasn't looking so good there for they took a closer lookand noticed the bugs. But is it safe to say thats the problem or was it another problem that made them notice the bugs?

[Aquattro]

Hard to say. I never noticed them at all. Adam came by and he saw them. I think they show up easier on fading or bleached corals due to red on a light background. I agree, some of my nicest pieces are covered and show no problems. In fact, one humilis I have has started growing faster since getting them!!
The problem is adding a new frag...will it tolerate the bugs, or shrivel and die? Expensive gambling habit :eek:
BTW, the coral I dipped has fully recovered (from the iodine) by this morning and all it's polyps were extended.

[Acro]

Brad,In regards to another thread you had started regarding putting bugs into your tank for what it's worth I knew I was putting them in mine. :rolleyes: From speaking with very experienced hobbiest felt it was'nt a huge deal. There is no doubt in my mind there are worse things to have and many we have not come across yet I'm sure. From your iodine dip are you sure 100% of the bugs are killed and removed from the coral? As far as adding new frags I don't beleive any would shrivel and die do to the bugs only. Again these are only my thoughts and it does appear there are many on the subject which is some what confusing. If we all agreed that ah yes they killed the whole tank their bad this would make it easier. But thats not the concensius there for again I have to question their degree of harm.

[Aquattro]

I'm not gonna ask why you put them there knowingly :razz:
Again, I have to admit I can't assign a degree a damage. Since reefers tend to play and change other things often, it's hard to say what is caused by the bugs. One guy over here discovered the bugs when he lost 4 colonies, and he thought it was from the bugs. I reassured him it wasn't, but who knows. I have not had to remove a dead coral yet that I think the bugs killed, but if the progress of some of the affected pieces continues linearly, they will die in time. I am experimenting with moving them to lower light areas, and in the case of the branch in the 5g,it is helping (or maybe the temp going into the 90's is do it).
At this point I can only say they are pests, not killers, but I do have damage that I directly blame on them. Maybe my tank has features that allow reproduction and I have many more than other people...again, who knows. I'm hoping my cyano experiment works, as that may lead to hope in ridding my tank of the suckers! :confused:

[bongy]

Hi Brad,

Do the bugs get killed off completely by epsom salt? or is iodine the only solutions?

Bongy

[Aquattro]

Sorry, I meant to reply to your last post when I got to the office, but it slipped right out of my head!!
I haven't tried epsom salt yet on the bugs, so I can't answer that. Wendell recommends epsom salt for general dips, and I assume most things are removed.
I will try and remember to buy some epsom salts next time I'm at the drug store and test it. You can send me an email reminder if you like, as I forget things a lot :biggrin:

[MitchM]

You can send me an email reminder if you like, as I forget things a lot :biggrin:


Y'know, I'm still waiting for that $50 you said you would send me.

Mitch

[MitchM]

How exactly would you play with the bugs? If you have any ideas, I can send you some!

I'd probably see how low I could go with hyposalinity or maybe surrround the SPS with some soft corals.
MRSandman seemed to have some luck with a 6-line. It sounds like his wrasse was exibiting the same behaviour as mine - picking at SPS. They've got to be picking at something.

Mitch

[Aquattro]

Mitch, I sent that $50 months ago...I'm sure you'll get it soon. I'll see how difficult it would be for me to send you a bug frag...if it's not too much trouble, I'll send it. Then you can play all you want!

[MitchM]

Great! I'll send you some of my flatworms.
$50 worth! :lol:

Mitch

[Acro]

Brad, you don't have to ask why but again I talked with some experienced reefers that have had prior experience in regard to the bugs and they did and still feel not a huge issue. Plus the fact the frags were the original teal A. abrolhosensis on Tryee's most wanted list and a sky blue A. gemmifera I made the call to throw them in.

[Aquattro]

Jamie, like I said earlier, maybe population densities play a role. It is possible that I have a lot more than you and that's why I see negative effects.
I may have even made the same call as you at the time, however, knowing what I do now, I would make very certain none went in the tank. I think iodine and a magnifying glass are all that's needed to ensure this.

[Aquattro]

Jamie, one other thing..you mentioned earlier that moving or changing something with the water has shown positive results. Can you think of any pattern you've noticed, or is it different for each coral?

[Acro]

Brad, Nothing really as far as a pattern goes. Simply just noticed after moving things sometimes a certain coral will start looking better in a new location. Also if my water quality declines negitive things happen. Which then I notice a higher population on more sensitive corals. Once I improve the water quality things look better. I geuss thats a big help :confused:

[Acro]

I would also like to add: By no means am I making light of the bugs. I do beleive they pester the coral and if it's as easy as a pre iodine dip then everyone receiving frags that have the bugs on them should do so. I personally have no expereince with the pre dip measures. I would be intrested to know if indead the pre dip kills all bugs. One would need to QT the coral after to find out for sure.

[Aquattro]

Jamie, I agree. With all the bugs in the pic I posted, several were still hoping around after about 10 minutes. I think briskly shaking the frag would certainly help. Hopefully I can establish more info over time, as I intend to test few different things, dipping being one of the first.

[Samw]

Brad, have you read about the use of Dragon Pipefish for eating red bugs? There are videos of the fish picking off bugs on the Acros.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=392937&perpage=25&pagenumber=2