tank overflow prevention?

[cwickham]

hey

i use ball-valves to limit the return from my main tank to the sump. I adjust the level of the tank so that the return is completely under water to reduce micro bubbles and noise.

The problem is that if the power goes out and the tank level drops, air gets into those pipes and when the power comes back on, the air gets trapped at the ball-valve and limits the flow even more cause my tank to overflow if im not there to release the air.

is there any way around this, is there somthing that will shut my return pump off when the water gets to a certain level(just for emergency if im not home)

i have tryed to find a normally open float switch to make somthing, but can only find normally closed ones.

thanks for your help
craig

[superduperwesman]

If it's just one return with a ball valve then you are crazy... you'll always have problems even if the power doesn't go out. Any small thing that partially blocks the ball valve will cause your tank to over flow. If you want to have a valve on the the drain to reduce noise you'll need a back up drain

[Todd]

You want a herbie overflow system. Doing this with only one drain is asking for a flood.

You could get around this by hooking up your return to a float stitch and then inverting the operation of the float switch (or inverting the switch itself I guess). But still would not be as good as a herbie system would be.

[wickedfrags]

Why not just leave the ball valve all the way open???

If you are concerned about the level of water in your sump, you can create a siphon break by drilling a small hole in the return line, about 1/4" to 1/2" below the level of your water. This will allow air into the return system faster, resulting in more water staying in your tank and less being directed to the sump.

Also, avoid using ball valves to regulate water flow, that is what gate valves are designed for. Ball valves should be open or closed.


hey

i use ball-valves to limit the return from my main tank to the sump. I adjust the level of the tank so that the return is completely under water to reduce micro bubbles and noise.

The problem is that if the power goes out and the tank level drops, air gets into those pipes and when the power comes back on, the air gets trapped at the ball-valve and limits the flow even more cause my tank to overflow if im not there to release the air.

is there any way around this, is there somthing that will shut my return pump off when the water gets to a certain level(just for emergency if im not home)

i have tryed to find a normally open float switch to make somthing, but can only find normally closed ones.

thanks for your help
craig

[Skimmerking]

hey

i use ball-valves to limit the return from my main tank to the sump. I adjust the level of the tank so that the return is completely under water to reduce micro bubbles and noise.

The problem is that if the power goes out and the tank level drops, air gets into those pipes and when the power comes back on, the air gets trapped at the ball-valve and limits the flow even more cause my tank to overflow if im not there to release the air.

is there any way around this, is there somthing that will shut my return pump off when the water gets to a certain level(just for emergency if im not home)

i have tryed to find a normally open float switch to make somthing, but can only find normally closed ones.

thanks for your help
craig

Craig its really easy to sort out here keep your plumbing the same way open your ball valve full open.
what you need to do is drill a small hole in your return pipe just above the water line in your tank. This is going to allow you to back siphon the water once it reaches the water line so make the hole just below the water line then the pump goes off the water will drain only to the pipe with the hole. SUPER EASY

[mark]

Sounding like a Herbie without the emergency back up (probably not the best idea).

Guess I can't understand why the air would be trapped, but could it be how the valve is orientated, could the valve be relocated.

[Parker]

I'd take the ball valve off the drain side and put it on the return side ( after the pump ) if you want to limit the flow.

[cwickham]

that would work, but id like to keep the same amount of flow, just reduce how fast it flows from the main tank to the sump

[Parker]

You would be keeping the same amount of flow. Your tank will only drain as fast as your pumping water into it ( to the flow limits of your drains ). I'm assuming you are running your return pump wide open? If you are your present drain is able to keep up with it even though it's restricted. The amount of water your return pump moves won't change.

[superduperwesman]

Why not just leave the ball valve all the way open???

I think he wants to minimize noise

If you are concerned about the level of water in your sump, you can create a siphon break by drilling a small hole in the return line, about 1/4" to 1/2" below the level of your water. This will allow air into the return system faster, resulting in more water staying in your tank and less being directed to the sump.

His problem seems to be too much water in the tank?? So much so that it's overflowing... so I don't think he wants "more water staying in the tank.

Also, avoid using ball valves to regulate water flow, that is what gate valves are designed for. Ball valves should be open or closed.

I wouldn't say that gate valves are design for flow control... but yes they will do a better job then a ball valve in this application

[superduperwesman]

Craig its really easy to sort out here keep your plumbing the same way open your ball valve full open.
what you need to do is drill a small hole in your return pipe just above the water line in your tank. This is going to allow you to back siphon the water once it reaches the water line so make the hole just below the water line then the pump goes off the water will drain only to the pipe with the hole. SUPER EASY

This doesn't address his issue... he's trying to use the ball valve to reduce noise... Basically you want a Herbie so your gonna need 2 drains

[superduperwesman]

I'd take the ball valve off the drain side and put it on the return side ( after the pump ) if you want to limit the flow.

Then he'll get less turnover and still have the noise issue?? The only reason his drain occasionally has problems with keeping up to the pump is because he has it restricted... and the only reason he is limiting the drain flow is for noise and bubbles not because he wants less actual flow to the tank

[Myka]

hey

i use ball-valves to limit the return from my main tank to the sump. I adjust the level of the tank so that the return is completely under water to reduce micro bubbles and noise.

The problem is that if the power goes out and the tank level drops, air gets into those pipes and when the power comes back on, the air gets trapped at the ball-valve and limits the flow even more cause my tank to overflow if im not there to release the air.

is there any way around this, is there somthing that will shut my return pump off when the water gets to a certain level(just for emergency if im not home)

i have tryed to find a normally open float switch to make somthing, but can only find normally closed ones.

thanks for your help
craig


I haven't read this entire thread, so if it hasn't been mentioned yet, check out the Herbie style overflow, and see if you can mod yours like that. :)

[Parker]

The he'll get less turnover and still have the noise issue??


IF he is running his return pump wide open at the moment that's all the flow he will ever get out of that pump. If the drain is noisy that's a seperate issue that's needs to be addressed by a solution other then placing a valve on the drain.

Running a valve on the drain is a very dangerous way to regulate flow or noise, snail goes down his drain = flood, valves starts to gather crap, clumps of algae = flood, fish goes down the drain = flood, and it will happen eventually. It's always best to regulate flow on the return side.

[phillybean]

Why not put a strainer on the intake side to prevent anything big from getting in the pipe?

On mine, I have a valve but leave it open. I have a strainer to prevent anything large from getting in it.

As an added precaution my overflow box / return pump section are small enough that there is no way for my tank to flood.

[superduperwesman]

IF he is running his return pump wide open at the moment that's all the flow he will ever get out of that pump. If the drain is noisy that's a seperate issue that's needs to be addressed by a solution other then placing a valve on the drain.

Running a valve on the drain is a very dangerous way to regulate flow or noise, snail goes down his drain = flood, valves starts to gather crap, clumps of algae = flood, fish goes down the drain = flood, and it will happen eventually. It's always best to regulate flow on the return side.

ahah that's exactly why I said he was crazy in the first post... UNLESS you have a back up drain. I don't think he's try to "regulate flow" to the tank he just trying to reduce noise and bubbles like he mentioned in his first post which is why he is trying to control the out flow to reduce the air in the line which is why he needs a herbie style drain

He could try a few other methods... but the ball valve would seem to indicate that he's leaning toward a herbie?? Which is the quietest :)

[superduperwesman]

Why not put a strainer on the intake side to prevent anything big from getting in the pipe?


I think you can still get a slim build up after some time that will change the outflow enough to slowly overflow your tank even if you had it adjusted perfectly to begin with

[untamed]

that would work, but id like to keep the same amount of flow, just reduce how fast it flows from the main tank to the sump

That's impossible. Water always flows to the sump at the same rate it is pumped out of the sump. If something prevents this from happening, you have overflow.

[cwickham]

That's impossible. Water always flows to the sump at the same rate it is pumped out of the sump. If something prevents this from happening, you have overflow.


water doesnt have to flow back into the tank as fast as its pumped up, you can restrict it to find a good balance between over flow and the perfect level.



I agree with all of you that restricting the overflow is a dangerous game, and eventaully will get clogged. I think im just going to build an electronic shut off. water gets to high for any reason, pump turns off, water drains out pump turns back on. Probably be the easyiest solution.

thanks for all your comments

[Canadian]

water doesnt have to flow back into the tank as fast as its pumped up, you can restrict it to find a good balance between over flow and the perfect level.

For all intents and purposes it does (have to flow from the display tank at the same rate it is pumped to it by the return pump). If it didn't you'd either slowly (or quickly depending upon the disparity) overfill the display tank --> too much water in the display tank --> wet floor.

The most efficient and economical solution is to add another emergency drain line a la the Herbie method.

[mark]

water doesnt have to flow back into the tank as fast as its pumped up, you can restrict it to find a good balance between over flow and the perfect level.



I agree with all of you that restricting the overflow is a dangerous game, and eventaully will get clogged. I think im just going to build an electronic shut off. water gets to high for any reason, pump turns off, water drains out pump turns back on. Probably be the easyiest solution.

thanks for all your comments

Seems a lot easier just to make a two standpipe Herbie, sort out a Durso or other, or even just reducing the flow into to tank. As for electronic control, switches etc fail and still might come back to a flood or if you loose flow long enough to a dead tank.

[superduperwesman]

water doesnt have to flow back into the tank as fast as its pumped up, you can restrict it to find a good balance between over flow and the perfect level.


Yeah it does.... if it doesn't, like mentioned, you will slowly overflow your tank.

Yeah you can have a float switch that shuts off your pump... but once the drain gets a little backed up your pump going on and off ever few minutes. Not sure why you would want that

The only reason why you put a valve on you drain is to reduce air in the line... ideally the water flow should stay the same... unfortunately it is almost imposable to achieve this which is why you need a back up drain.

[Doug]

This is my take on this topic, so take it for what its worth. :lol:

1. I would never valve a drain.

2. I would never use a check valve.

3. Make the drains large enough to handle any volume or two drains or use an overflow drain as many have suggested.

4. Use a herbie, duraso or stockman overflow, to silence them.

Sumps & overflows are a very simple thing to not complicate and make them fool proof.