Why the hell do my sps keep dying

[dabandit]

I've been keeping fish and softies for a loooong time so by no means am I new to this. My water parameters are 100% perfect,i've dumped thousands into equipment to rectify this with no luck. What gives? every piece of sps ive ever put in my system has died within 2weeks,the polyps are fully extended and colors are beautiful then the next day im left with no more than a skeleton. Could I have a parasite or bacteria and what can I use to fix it if I do? I've started dosing with coral snow yesterday because I was told it would break down possible harmfull acids,aside from that I just dose the usual suplements. I keep beautiful fish and used to keep beautiful softies in the same system and never had a problem with anything other than sps.....all species of sps. PLEASE IM DESPERATE I have too much into this to walk away now

[niloc16]

no disrespect but '100% perfect water' doesnt tell us much. we need to know

CA
mg
po4
no3
alk
salinity
temp
what type of test kits are you using

those stats would be a good start. then we need to know all your equipment
that you are using. what size tank is it? what type and size of softies do you have? if the tank is too small and your softies are large they may be attacking your sps if they are in close proximity. i would quit dosing until you know exactly where your water parameters are. sps are not impossible to keep, they are just picky sometimes.

[Powertec]

What is your mag at? And do you still have softies in the tank and if so are you running carbon?

[justinl]

water parameters would help. system info like lighting, filtration, what you dose and if you test for it etc etc. just the fact that they're kicking the bucket isn't enough for us to help in any way.

[dabandit]

Ok but im sure you allready know what good parameters are but here we go...
75gal single overflow,35gal sump inlet baffle and outlet baffle stuffed with lr pieces,euroreef 120,phosban,phosban with carbon,2x250mh with 2 96wpc,2 koralia 1's,nano koralia,115lbs lr,deep sand bed....thats my equip

Livestock is naso,ocelaris,green spot dragonet +cuc

Parameters are phos.0,nitrate0,nitrite0,ammonia0,cal450,ph8?it was right,temp82,sal1.022,alk10dkh and I've never tested for mag.

[dabandit]

I dose trace elements,cal,phyto and zeo

[dabandit]

test kit is professional grade test tube style

[dabandit]

I've never had to dose for ka my water changes keep that in check 10% every3 weeks with instant ocean

[dabandit]

and no softies anymore

[dabandit]

all sps were given 12'' away from any other coral

[dabandit]

Im stumped I've tried on and off to keep sps for about 2 years allways the same result but only in this system,could it be parasite or bacteria? and what can I do?
P.s no cyano i system but some hair algae on back wall for tang

[fencer]

Check your REDOX potential

[martym]

Alk at 10 is way to high with the zeo system. 8 is the highest it should be.

[justinl]

how old is the system? I admit I am not familiar with zeo, so here's me dropping out of the conversation :)

[michika]

SG of 1.022? How was it measured?

[Red Coral Aquariums]

The only things that jump out at me on your parameters is the low salinity (I would recommend 1.025 or 26 and due to the fact you have not tested for Mag. Here is an article that might help.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/rhf/index.php
Kevin

[Skimmerking]

The only things that jump out at me on your parameters is the low salinity (I would recommend 1.025 or 26 and due to the fact you have not tested for Mag. Here is an article that might help.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/rhf/index.php
Kevin
Kevin I disagree with the low salt in the water, I know of some
pepole that have a 1.22 tank and their SPS is awesome, I keep mine at 1.023 and i have no problems keeping SPS. if your MAg is really low then that could be the problem , but if you are doing water changes every 3 weeks then you are probably getting enough Magnesium. unless you are dosing KALK at a high rate which would cause the Magnesuim to drop

[justinl]

Kevin I disagree with the low salt in the water, I know of some
pepole that have a 1.22 tank and their SPS is awesome, I keep mine at 1.023 and i have no problems keeping SPS. if your MAg is really low then that could be the problem , but if you are doing water changes every 3 weeks then you are probably getting enough Magnesium. unless you are dosing KALK at a high rate which would cause the Magnesuim to drop

Not disagreeing with low salinity tanks, Ive seen them too, but it would explain the short time before the OP's sps all died. I can almost guarantee wherever he gets his corals from, the tanks there are not kept at 1.022; most lfs keep their tanks at the same salinity most reefers target: 1.025 (give or take a bit). the rapid jump to 1.022 is enough to kill a coral imo. I also have to aske how it was measured; hydrometer? refractometer? calibrated or not for either?

[Canadian]

Not disagreeing with low salinity tanks, Ive seen them too, but it would explain the short time before the OP's sps all died. I can almost guarantee wherever he gets his corals from, the tanks there are not kept at 1.022; most lfs keep their tanks at the same salinity most reefers target: 1.025 (give or take a bit). the rapid jump to 1.022 is enough to kill a coral imo. I also have to aske how it was measured; hydrometer? refractometer? calibrated or not for either?

+1

The SG of 1.022 jumped out at me. I'd venture to guess that SG was derived using a hydrometer which would make the reported value more spurious. And if the only flow you have in a 75g tank is 2 Koralia 1's and a Koralia Nano then you have really insufficient flow for SPS.

dabandit,

I'd suggest you take some time to be more specific when reporting the details of your tank (i.e. what test kits are you using to come up with your reported parameters) and to post a picture of your tank. A bunch of reported parameters often doesn't provide as much information as a picture can. If you have hair algae growing for your tang then you can guarantee you don't have 0 phosphate and you likely don't have 0 nitrate.

Also, how long has the tank been set up and how long has the DSB been set up?

[o.c.d.]

when you are adding the corals are you starting low in the tank? how about the age of the bulbs?

[Skimmerking]

Not disagreeing with low salinity tanks, Ive seen them too, but it would explain the short time before the OP's sps all died. I can almost guarantee wherever he gets his corals from, the tanks there are not kept at 1.022; most lfs keep their tanks at the same salinity most reefers target: 1.025 (give or take a bit). the rapid jump to 1.022 is enough to kill a coral imo. I also have to aske how it was measured; hydrometer? refractometer? calibrated or not for either?

Actually Justin one of the bigger places in the City I won't name his place, only for and not bashing his store. He keeps his tanks at 1.021 Doug can jump in on this one. I know all the time that I would get home and test the water I keep mine at 1.025 as most of us will ,but he will always say, after 3 of us will test of refractormeter ours are wrong and his is right.:lol: So you think lot s of LFS would do the proper thing but any thing to save a few bucks in salt.. ya Inreference to you stating the big jump in Salinity I always check the bag before addding any water in the bag I trust no one...

[Skimmerking]

Ok but im sure you allready know what good parameters are but here we go...
75gal single overflow,35gal sump inlet baffle and outlet baffle stuffed with lr pieces,euroreef 120,phosban,phosban with carbon,2x250mh with 2 96wpc,2 koralia 1's,nano koralia,115lbs lr,deep sand bed....thats my equip

Livestock is naso,ocelaris,green spot dragonet +cuc

Parameters are phos.0,nitrate0,nitrite0,ammonia0,cal450,ph8?it was right,temp82,sal1.022,alk10dkh and I've never tested for mag.

I can't seeing the Low ORP if he has a over flow and the water is travelling down any huge water movement the orp is going to be up some what. I can't see that the
alk is that bad lots of Reactors are pumping out 10-11 DKH out for reactors. HOw are the SPS dying in the tank are they dying from the top down or the bottom up.... so you have any nudibranches in your tank that you dont know about that are eating the SPS

[Hairytank]

The first thing that jumped out at me was the lower specific gravity, but it sounds like this would be something more devastating.

Have you tested for copper?

[Skimmerking]

I can't seeing it being copper Since he has a tank full of Softies or Is it still full of softies. And for the Record I can't see how a low salt of 1.022 would make that much of a difference, Heck I have kepted my tank at 1.022 before with no effectsd its hasd to be somthing.

[fkshiu]

1. Please define "SPS" - can you keep digis and montis alive at least?

2. Low SG may not be the sole reason, but bumping it up a bit would not hurt.

3. Check your Mg - it's just as important as Ca and Alk

4. Increase your flow - 2x K1 and a K-nano isn't much for SPS in your sized tank.

[Canadian]

I can't seeing it being copper Since he has a tank full of Softies or Is it still full of softies. And for the Record I can't see how a low salt of 1.022 would make that much of a difference, Heck I have kepted my tank at 1.022 before with no effectsd its hasd to be somthing.

You're assuming 1.022 is an accurate measurement. How many times have you seen someone report a low SG like that only to find it was measured with either a hydrometer or a poorly calibrated refractometer? If it was measured with a hydrometer it could be closer to 1.019 or it could be considerably elevated. Hence the reason it's important, firstly, to find out how these parameters were tested.

But I still think the flow is way too low and I would be surprised if phosphate and nitrate weren't elevated (despite the 0 values reported from testing) given the report of hair algae growing. I'd still like to see a picture of the tank.

[Skimmerking]

YEs I picture would be alot better to see what the tank is looking like as of now

[fencer]

Could be contaminated salt....

[mark]

With a Ca of 450, chances Mg is okay (from a observation with low Mg, I'm unable to get my Ca up).

Source water?

[dabandit]

Ok where do I start;I dont dose ka,flow also comes from sump return at some astronomical rate,they are dying bottom up,i use 2 decent hydrometers and reference both for acuracy,I cant find a mag test kit at any lfs ive checked so far but i assume its okay because my calc and ka are high?,system is approx 2 years old,i dont keep softies anymore,i have'nt seen any bugs or what not even at night and yes I aclimate properlly but i dont use any products in doing so,no I cant even keep monti ALL sps species have died

So heres what I've got from you guys so far;slowlly raise salinity,bigger koralia......?

[dabandit]

oh and source is ro di

[fooser]

I am not sure why everyone thinks that 1.022 is too low for SG reading. Myself and a few of my friends all keep our SG at 1.022 in my SPS reef and I have never had a problem. I know a LFS here that keeps it at close to the same level as I do as well.
Can anyone fill me in?

[justinl]

It's not that 1.022 is low for a system; i don't personally see a problem with that. The problem I see is that if a coral (or anything really) comes from the majority of the stores who keep their water at 1.025 (notice i said "most" this time :)) it has to very quickly adapt to 1.022... essentially its getting the salts sucked out of it by osmosis. Even with proper acclimation for hours, I don't know... but hey, that might not even be *the* problem.

[o.c.d.]

So I couldn't find where you mentioned the Temp of your tank. High and low or if it is constant. Also are your corals bleaching? or do you notice a brown jelly, white paste? black gooey material? ect..
I ask where you place your new coral and bulb age because of burning. If you get your corals from the same place, that happens to have low light and the tranfer to your tank with bright light, now where in the tank may be safe from burning esp if your tank depth is low and your lights are close to the water. Just a thought.

[martym]

I still say if you go to the Zeovit.com web site and say that your Alk is 10, they will tell you to get it down to NSW readings. It has to do with the way the bacteria work in the zeo system.

[Canadian]

I agree that you should look in to lowering your alk if you're using Zeo (but if you haven't been using Zeo since you started trying to keep SPS then this won't explain your problem).

Again, check your SG with a refractometer - not a "calibrated" hydrometer. You can't believe the number of times people have assumed their "calibrated" hydrometer(s) were accurate only to find they either went bad or were never good (Brad can attest to this). The problem may not be that the SG is 1.022 but I would be surprised if it actually was 1.022.

Flow coming from the sump "at some astronomical rate" doesn't tell us the flow rate. What return pump are you using? What is the rated flow for the return pump? How high up does the pump have to pump? How many elbows are plumbed into the return pump plumbing? Those Koralia 1's are inadequate in a 75g.

I would stop assuming your Mg is ok. If you can't get a test kit locally order one from J&L or Ocean Aquatics - they're both close and shipping will be relatively cheap.

When was the last time you measured the TDS of your RO/DI water?

Have you ever added any detrivores to your deep sand bed? I would guess your deep sand bed is a sewer dumping nutrients back into the tank as evidenced by the fact that you continue to have hair algae. You 100% do not have zero phosphate if you have hair algae growing in your tank.

So again, I implore you, if you want help figuring this problem out take a picture of your tank and post it here so we can stop guessing and see what we're dealing with. Trying to "diagnose" your problem without seeing at least a picture of your tank is just going to beget more guessing.

[Powertec]

I still say if you go to the Zeovit.com web site and say that your Alk is 10, they will tell you to get it down to NSW readings. It has to do with the way the bacteria work in the zeo system.

I agree with this theory as we'll. I kept my dkh when i was running Zeo at 7.That could be a issue.

What is the TDS coming out of your R/O?

[Snappy]

You say they die from the bottom up. How quickly? Is it RTN or STN? In my experience if corals are dying from the bottom up they are either getting too little flow or too little light or both. I can assure you that in a 75 gallon tank you are not even close to the flow you need for sps with your current power heads. IMO those KH1's are barely enough for a 20 gal nano. As an example I have 2 sieo 820's & a Tunze nano stream (1200 gal hour) in a 40 gal frag tank.
It's a big jump going from a FOWLR or Soft coral reef to sps because the requirements are very different and flow & lighting are key in keeping sps healthy.
Also what brand of salt do you use? Have you tested the new water mix and if so what is it at?

[JDigital]

I can assure you that in a 75 gallon tank you are not even close to the flow you need for sps

What do you recommend for flow in a 75G for SPS Greg? I am getting about 44X turnover (3300GPH) in my 75...

[marie]

To put the flow thing into perspective I have a maxijet 1200 with the mod kit on my 65g (same footprint as the 75g but only 18" high) so thats approx. 1600 gph flow on a tank that has my tube anemones, bubble coral, fox coral and mushrooms, all low flow corals.
If I was going to have sps in there I would add at least another modded maxijet.

[martym]

in my 50g I have a return pump =350gph, 2 6055 nano's and a MJ1200 total of 3515gph or 70X turn over

[Doug]

SPS dont need a reason to not make it, just being sps is a reason. :lol:

Ok, I agree pics would help, esp. giving the acro experts here a look see. I dont agree salinity is a problem, although I would never keep my sps reef at anything under 1.024 -1.025

Magnesium is important with those corals. And its relationship to calcium. If your depending on water changes with IO to keep it up, and unless something has changed, it has low magnesium. I always use IO, but add calcium and magnesium, following Ben,s {chemmaster} formula. Mag. always stays at around 1350 this way.

I would also run a lot more current in an sps based aquarium of that size. My 90 is just softies now and I still run two large Hydors, {1200gph}, two large powerfilters and a Tunze 6080, rated @ 2200gph.

[dabandit]

Ok my mistake i run koralia 4's at 1200gph each and my return pump is a 1200gph magdrive combined with my nano im making around 3800gph this isnt enough? my nano is directlly infront of my last acro colony. I talked to the place where I last got my corals their salinity is 1.024 where mine was 1.023 so I doubt thats the issue. The bulbs in my system are around 7 months old and getting dim, I run them about 8'' above my 18'' deep tank. About the salinity....I use two hydrometers which give the exact same reading every time,you wouldnt trust that?

[Haloreef]

I would agree with Snappy. I would go one step further and say good flow is an absolute must but, a random flow is realy what you should be looking for. Do the polyps on your sps sway back and forth, or are they always being pushed in one direction? I get mezmorized watching the polys in my sps tank swaying back and forth.
Keith.

[dabandit]

Ok bought a new cam battery here is a picture of my last acro colony. 12hrs ago this beauty was perfect I awoke today to find this,notice how the polyps are still fully extended

[Snappy]

What do you recommend for flow in a 75G for SPS Greg? I am getting about 44X turnover (3300GPH) in my 75...
50 - 100% more.



Ok bought a new cam battery here is a picture of my last acro colony. 12hrs ago this beauty was perfect I awoke today to find this,notice how the polyps are still fully extended In my experience when you get a green skeleton after STN / RTN you have a nitrate-phosphate issue.

[dabandit]

I'll test again ty,i've been testing at 0 i run 2 phosbans one with carbon one with phosphate media. Maybe my test is off can anyone recomend a more accurate version? P.S this is the first death where the skelly went green all others were white

[dabandit]

another pic

[o.c.d.]

ostreobium are green algae that live within the skeleton of living corals, Under nutrient poor conditions it causes no harm, but sufficient availability of nitrate or po4 it will grow faster than usual and will encroach on the coral and cause the live tissue to recede. The only way to control is to limit the nitrate on po4 levels

[Delphinus]

But what if NO3 and PO4 are already testing negligible to zero? I have the same problem. I tried running zeo to get rid of NO3 and PO4 .. didn't help. I run NO3 destroyer. NO3 is zero. It doesn't help. Acros drop dead after a few weeks. No obvious parasites. I wonder at times if it could be some kind of bacterial problem that once it gains a foothold there's just nothing you can do to eradicate it, because it's odd to me that out of 3 distinct reef tanks that I run, the same results happen in each of them. I used to be able to keep SPS - I can't anymore. Everytime I buy "test frags" or "test colonies" I get reminded within a few weeks that I am just wasting my money.

FWIW here are my numbers of the last tank I am trying SPS in. Ca 420, Alk 8, NO3 2.0, PO4 0.0, Mg 1390, SG 1.025. Source water is RO/DI. Water turnover is roughly 50x.

SPS can be one of the most frustrating and futile endeavours once it gets to the point.

[RuGlu6]

I would have to agree with high alk in ZEO system, I lost about 450$ worth of SPS when i was running ZEO.

However someone already mentioned Copper? LFS will test for free.
Even if you never treated with copper it could have come from old life rock if you got it "used".
Or a penny could have been dropped exidentally in to your sump and or tank (Kids?)
Small wire cut dropped in?
Copper screw?

At any rate i would test for copper just to be sure.
If you still using ZEO get you alk down to recommended lewels.

[dabandit]

Well it would seem my ka wasnt testing out properlly,the whole time i'd been running around 5ish. I jacked up alk in one day to 8...result my remaining 2 corals have healed over the skellies, and my latest test batch is holding strong,wish me luck lol. I dont run the zeo system by the way,I started dosing coral snow and sponge power in a previous attempt and was very pleased with it,but thats all I use. Mine is an algae driven system,along with my overcapacity skimmer and dual phosbans it seems to keep the nasties around zero. You can check out the survivors and my latest test batch in my album on here if you like.

[Delphinus]

Over what kind of timeframe did they heal over?? It seems really fast?

[dabandit]

It was real fast,my pocci had approx 1/2inch of skelly showing at tips and base with a huge dose of sponge power approx 10drops for my total of 100g,it was healed in about 2 days the color is still a little light but the skin has healed over and polyps are out in the damaged areas. At the same time i dosed sponge power I also jacked my alk. I've used sponge power in the past for sick corals results were within a week there was noticable regeneration ,though I did lose those in an unrelated system crash (snail in overflow)
I've been dosing sponge power and coral snow the whole time,I just jacked up the dosage when the die off started,and dropped it when they began to heal.
You can see pics of how my 2 survivors look now in my album

[dabandit]

Here they are here if you dont feel like hunting down my album lol

[Delphinus]

I did try looking for your album but couldn't find it .. where is it?

[dabandit]

look up lol,I ended up posting the pics. its under public profile,statistics, when you click on my name ,my album that is

[Delphinus]

I saw THOSE. :p I just meant I went looking for your album as well but couldn't find it. Neither in the photo gallery nor in the photo forum so I thought I'd just ask where it is. :)

[dabandit]

I know,I was just teasing lol but like I say click my name,go to public profile,then statistics. You'd think there would be an easier way....probablly is lol

[dabandit]

In case you were wondering about the algae I was going for coraline but got this instead lol waiting for it to die off,the scrapes are test patches to see if it grows back so far it isnt...thank god ,It was from my system crash not a sign of a current issue,i left it to die off so my naso can graze.......thats my story and im sticking to it lol

[Aquattro]

I'll join in too! 1.022 is low, but it won't kill SPS like that, not even if improperly acclimated. Flow is too low, again, wouldn't do that. Alk of 10 may be too high for the Zeo guys to approve, but mine's that high at least, and I use Zeo, my corals are all fine. I'd guess not Alk.
Have you mentioned which brand of kits you're using? Have you cross referenced with someone else's kit?