I really need help. (Hopefully with a Herbie style drain)

[rocketlily]

I am not having any luck with trying to do plumbing. The tank is 90 gal and I have an over flow compartment in which I have built a durso. The noise of the water entering the sump is unbearable. Something like running a bathtub. Massive air bubbles and alot of noise. It has nothing to do with the holes in the cap, as it doesn't make any difference whether the cap is on the durso or not. I am also getting alot of fluctuating height in the water in the overflow, up and down. Not to the point where it sounds like a toilet flushing, but it rises and lowers.

The tank is in the living room and I really need to try to make it quiet. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

[Ya Dude]

try reducing flow of main pump with a ball valve sounds like its too much.I had same problem.

[Phanman]

on top of the durso... do you have a hose for air to get in? try adjusting the hose up or down to let the right air mixture in.

[silverplanet]

how far does the water fall in the overflow? what is the sump and tank return plumbing size? is ther a air hose in the durso top?

Jason

[sphelps]

You may need a larger standpipe. Also the drain should be one size smaller than the standpipe, for example if standpipe is 1.5" drain to sump should be 1.25".
Does the overflow drain line go straight down into the sump? It sometimes helps to run a section of the drain line horizontal to slow it down.

Do you have dual drains in the overflow? Or just the one? What size? It can be really hard to have both a high return flow rate and very quiet operation with a single drain setup.

[rocketlily]

"on top of the durso... do you have a hose for air to get in? try adjusting the hose up or down to let the right air mixture in"
On top of the durso is a cap with 8 - 1/16" holes that I can cover/uncover.

"how far does the water fall in the overflow? what is the sump and tank return plumbing size? is ther a air hose in the durso top?"
Tank height is 20" and water in the overflow is 17" with a 20" drop to the top of the sump.

"You may need a larger standpipe. Also the drain should be one size smaller than the standpipe, for example if standpipe is 1.5" drain to sump should be 1.25".
Does the overflow drain line go straight down into the sump? It sometimes helps to run a section of the drain line horizontal to slow it down"
Standpipe is 1.5" and drain is 1.5" with 2 - 45's. Would not reducing the drain size force the water out faster?

[Hairytank]

Just to be certain where the noise is coming from...according to your post it sounds like your noise is coming from your sump and not the overflow..is this correct?
ie: when you stick your head in the stand over the sump..the sound is coming from there and not from above...?

Some possible solutions if it is the water entering the sump that is causing the noise.
If the end of the plumbing for the water to enter into the sump is submerged too much then there will be backpressure and it is more difficult for the air to get out until pressure builds up and then large bubbles will be forced out relieving the pressure until it builds again. This will cause fluctuations in your water as once the built up bubbles escape then the water flows better, lowering the water level.
A couple of solutions for this one, angle the pvc entering the sump and have it no more than 1-2" below the surface. If the plumbing is perpendicular (90 degree angle) to the water then it is harder for the air to be released. I would also add a filter sock to the plumbing entering the sump and this will break the bubbles up some and help reduce noise and bubbles in the sump. Besides a filter sock if maintained properly will polish your water nicely.

[sphelps]

Would not reducing the drain size force the water out faster?
Only if pressure exists, the water will fail due to gravity so unless the pipe is full velocity may actually decrease due to pipe wall friction. But the main purpose is to stop the air from entering the drain and stay in the standpipe exiting through the vent hole(s). Running a horizontal section will also help, it will slow the flow and cause the pipes to flood better again keeping air in the standpipe not the sump. It really sounds like you would benefit from a Herbie style overflow, but I'm guessing you only have the one drain?

[rocketlily]

Just to be certain where the noise is coming from...according to your post it sounds like your noise is coming from your sump and not the overflow..is this correct?
ie: when you stick your head in the stand over the sump..the sound is coming from there and not from above...?

Some possible solutions if it is the water entering the sump that is causing the noise.
If the end of the plumbing for the water to enter into the sump is submerged too much then there will be backpressure and it is more difficult for the air to get out until pressure builds up and then large bubbles will be forced out relieving the pressure until it builds again. This will cause fluctuations in your water as once the built up bubbles escape then the water flows better, lowering the water level.
A couple of solutions for this one, angle the pvc entering the sump and have it no more than 1-2" below the surface. If the plumbing is perpendicular (90 degree angle) to the water then it is harder for the air to be released. I would also add a filter sock to the plumbing entering the sump and this will break the bubbles up some and help reduce noise and bubbles in the sump. Besides a filter sock if maintained properly will polish your water nicely.

The noise is from the water entering the sump. There are a great amount of large bubbles with the water. I was also thinking that the backpressure was the cause of the fluctuating water level, but I was hoping for a different solution as the sump would need to be changed to allow for a different angle of entry.

"But the main purpose is to stop the air from entering the drain and stay in the standpipe exiting through the vent hole(s). Running a horizontal section will also help, it will slow the flow and cause the pipes to flood better again keeping air in the standpipe not the sump. It really sounds like you would benefit from a Herbie style overflow, but I'm guessing you only have the one drain?"
I agree that it is probably the air coming through with the water causing the noise. The drain is right above the inlet to the sump so not enough room for a horizontal section unless I change the inlet to the sump to another corner. Yes you're right, only one drain.

[mark]

the rising and lowering in the overflow indicates that the Durso is not tuned and would be getting some surging of air.

The negative with the Durso though is you'll always get air in the line back to the sump (not with a Herbie).

[sphelps]

The first thing I would try is a 2" standpipe. It'll be the quickest and easiest fix and give a better idea where the problem lies.
Another idea would be to install a Tee directly below the bulkhead and run the branch line up and then down into another section in the sump. Next install a valve just above the sump on the main drain line. Closing the valve will cause the drain to fill with water stopping air from entering the sump. You'll want to adjust the valve so water just starts to trickle out the other drain and the back up the valve a tiny bit. This will work similar to a herbie overflow but only needs one drain, it won't be as quiet as you'll get noise through the second drain line as it's connected to the main but you should be able to muffle it.

[rocketlily]

Thanks for all your ideas. I'll try some of them out this weekend.

[Marlin65]

My tank makes a huge amount of noise but if I tune it just right there is no noise. I have a 1-1/2" pipe with a basket. The thing though is I have a piece of airline zapstraped to that and just adjust it up or down to make the noise stop. If for some reason the hose clogs. (I keep it at the max height I want the tank to ever be) then the water gets sucked right down fast with tons of noise alerting me that there is a problem.
Hope that makes sense.:smile:
Maybe a small piece of hose is all you need.

[mark]

sphelps, didn't you have a drawing of that and if so could you post it up again

[Matt]

I am not having any luck with trying to do plumbing. The tank is 90 gal and I have an over flow compartment in which I have built a durso. The noise of the water entering the sump is unbearable. Something like running a bathtub. Massive air bubbles and alot of noise. It has nothing to do with the holes in the cap, as it doesn't make any difference whether the cap is on the durso or not. I am also getting alot of fluctuating height in the water in the overflow, up and down. Not to the point where it sounds like a toilet flushing, but it rises and lowers.

The tank is in the living room and I really need to try to make it quiet. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks
I remember this battle. It took me some time to understand how my Durso thinks. It wanted many things before it would shut up. Now we have an understanding.

The trick with a durso is that there has to be enough air entering the standpipe to avoid a siphon. If a siphon forms, you'll get "flushing". Backpressure also can create flushing, as air will get trapped in the standpipe as Hairytank points out.

I don't know how loud is "too loud" for you. A durso will never be dead silent like a herbie, because there is air in the pipe and that creates turbulence both in the pipe and on entry to the sump. There's no way to make that go away completely, but it certainly can be tuned to be reasonably quiet. In my living room, the drain is just slightly louder than the return pump hum, and that's good (I like water noise more than pump noise).

A closeup photo or two of the durso and the sump entry would probably help.

[Snappy]

Add an extension piece onto the return pipe going into the sump so it extends 6-8 inches below the water surface. That way there is no "waterfall" noise.

[Marlin65]

Add an extension piece onto the return pipe going into the sump so it extends 6-8 inches below the water surface. That way there is no "waterfall" noise.

That never worked for me but then I don't have a dorso.
I do think the air into the top is the key.

I think Matt has the right idea,

[Marlin65]

The first thing I would try is a 2" standpipe. It'll be the quickest and easiest fix and give a better idea where the problem lies.
Another idea would be to install a Tee directly below the bulkhead and run the branch line up and then down into another section in the sump. Next install a valve just above the sump on the main drain line. Closing the valve will cause the drain to fill with water stopping air from entering the sump. You'll want to adjust the valve so water just starts to trickle out the other drain and the back up the valve a tiny bit. This will work similar to a herbie overflow but only needs one drain, it won't be as quiet as you'll get noise through the second drain line as it's connected to the main but you should be able to muffle it.

Great idea I would try this on mine but I don't have enough room for that now.

[Marlin65]

"on top of the durso... do you have a hose for air to get in? try adjusting the hose up or down to let the right air mixture in"
On top of the durso is a cap with 8 - 1/16" holes that I can cover/uncover.


I would say get rid of this cap and put on one with a single 1/4" piece of hose that you can adjust up or down, and if that does not work you might want to look at changing some of your plumbing Sphelps way.

[superduperwesman]

sphelps, didn't you have a drawing of that and if so could you post it up again

I think he means something like this??

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/superduperwesman/drain.jpg

[Sam1969]

sounds like you have a 90 going into the sump ... can you remove the 90 and replace it with a T ? this will help reduce the back pressure allowing the top of the T to act as an overflow. This is only a temp. solution until you get the time to plumb it better.
If you want to slow down the flow you should use a ball valve on your sump line as well.

[rocketlily]

Looks like I could try it one of 2 ways.

First I could put a piece of 1/4" hose on the top, but how do you attach 1/4" hose to a piece of 1 1/2" PVC pipe so that it is adjustable? This sounds like it could be the simplest cure.

Secondly I could turn my 1 1/2" drain into a "Herbie" with a gate valve and use one of the return holes for the emergency drain, leaving me with one hole for returns. The tank currently has 1 - 2 3/4" hole for 1 1/2" drain and 2 - 1 3/4" holes for 1" returns.

I'm not sure I understand why one needs an emergency drain for the Herbie style, but not for the Durso.

Oh my, sometimes I wonder why I started this? (Just silently venting)

[Matt]

Looks like I could try it one of 2 ways.

First I could put a piece of 1/4" hose on the top, but how do you attach 1/4" hose to a piece of 1 1/2" PVC pipe so that it is adjustable? This sounds like it could be the simplest cure.

Secondly I could turn my 1 1/2" drain into a "Herbie" with a gate valve and use one of the return holes for the emergency drain, leaving me with one hole for returns. The tank currently has 1 - 2 3/4" hole for 1 1/2" drain and 2 - 1 3/4" holes for 1" returns.

I'm not sure I understand why one needs an emergency drain for the Herbie style, but not for the Durso.

Oh my, sometimes I wonder why I started this? (Just silently venting)The Durso should be running "wide open" with no obstructions. The Herbie is deliberately obstructed by a gate valve, which can get clogged pretty easily by debris, or an errant fish or snail. If your drain line gets obstructed, but your pump keeps pumping, your floor gets salt-watered. The second drain on the Herbie is to provide an automatic by-pass of the primary drain in that situation, which will take over the flow if the water level gets high enough in your overflow.

Your thought for using the smaller hole for the second drain is feasible only if it can handle the entire flow from the primary when it is turned off.

Good luck! This can get complicated, but you'll get there.

[sphelps]

I think he means something like this??

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/superduperwesman/drain.jpg
You got her, nice!

[rocketlily]

I think he means something like this??

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/superduperwesman/drain.jpg

Sorry, but can someone put some words to this picture for me.

[superduperwesman]

Sorry, but can someone put some words to this picture for me.

See below:

The first thing I would try is a 2" standpipe. It'll be the quickest and easiest fix and give a better idea where the problem lies.
Another idea would be to install a Tee directly below the bulkhead and run the branch line up and then down into another section in the sump. Next install a valve just above the sump on the main drain line. Closing the valve will cause the drain to fill with water stopping air from entering the sump. You'll want to adjust the valve so water just starts to trickle out the other drain and the back up the valve a tiny bit. This will work similar to a herbie overflow but only needs one drain, it won't be as quiet as you'll get noise through the second drain line as it's connected to the main but you should be able to muffle it.

[sphelps]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/plumbing.jpg

Sorry that 45 should just be a 90 or you could use two 45's and one 90. But you get the idea, right?

[rocketlily]

Thanks, looks simple enough.

"I would say get rid of this cap and put on one with a single 1/4" piece of hose that you can adjust up or down, and if that does not work you might want to look at changing some of your plumbing Sphelps way."

Last question, how do you mount the single 1/4" piece of hose that you can adjust up or down. Do you just drill a hole in a cap and insert the hose?

Thank you all for all your help

[superduperwesman]

Show off... do you know what his sump looks like or something? or is that just from someone other persons tank?

[sphelps]

If I recall correctly that is her sump design. I personally wouldn't bother with the air line in the standpipe, with a durso if done correctly it's not required. Try the plumbing setup as shown above, keep your 1.5" Standpipe and use 1.25" plumbing for the rest.

[Marlin65]

Thanks, looks simple enough.

"I would say get rid of this cap and put on one with a single 1/4" piece of hose that you can adjust up or down, and if that does not work you might want to look at changing some of your plumbing Sphelps way."

Last question, how do you mount the single 1/4" piece of hose that you can adjust up or down. Do you just drill a hole in a cap and insert the hose?

Thank you all for all your help

Just drill it so it is a bit tight and has a bit of friction.
It should be about 3"-4" long and just push it in until the noise stops.
If it restricts the water too much pull it up a bit.
Just make sure to cut the top of the tupe off at the max water height in case it plugs up. To see what happens when it plugs up just test it by putting your finger on top.

[rocketlily]

Show off... do you know what his sump looks like or something? or is that just from someone other persons tank?

He must be psychic.

[superduperwesman]

He must be psychic.

ahah guess so... or a stalker

[sphelps]

ahah guess so... or a stalker
Can I be both :biggrin:

[rocketlily]

I think I can go with a Herbie style drain. Just to recap, I have a 2 3/4" hole (1 1/2" bulkhead) for my main drain and 2 - 1 3/4" holes (1 " bulkheads) holes that we to be used for return pumps. All holes are on the bottom of the tank. I tested a 1" drain and it can keep up with 2 Quietone pumps being pumped directly (no elbows, no plumbing joints) into the overflow. I would like to use the 1 1/2" for the main drain and one of the 1" for an emergency drain, leaving a 1" for the return.

Now my questions,
1. Can a 1 1/2" bulkhead be used for a drain for a Herbie style drain?
2. Does anyone have a link to a reference site with drawings that I can follow to install this?
3. Can someone with Solidworks draw a picture with measurements and directions that I can follow?

Thanks again everyone for all your help.

[Marlin65]

Hose did not work?

[fishytime]

If you need pics of a herbie check out my build thread. The first couple pages are of the plumbing part of my build. http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40669 . If you need any other pics let me know by pm and I will send them to you.

Doug

[sphelps]

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/EngineeredAquariums/trimetric.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/EngineeredAquariums/frontnoted.jpg

This is a general drawing that should hopefully give you the idea. First you can use a 1.5" drain and a 1" drain. I would advise using the 1" drain as the primary and the 1.5" as the secondary (back-up). If you want you can use a standpipe with the secondary line, most people don't but it will keep things quieter if it gets used. You can use any type of standpipe, doesn't have to be an HGB as shown.

The siphon tube is not required but will prevent the overflow from draining when the power is cut.

The one thing I wouldn't do is tee both drains together at the bottom, keep them separate.

[sphelps]

3. Can someone with Solidworks draw a picture with measurements and directions that I can follow?

Let me know if you need something more specific than already posted. The files are at work, I can post something early next week if needed.