Red bug sharing question

[Aquattro]

I have a question that I would like as many answers to as possible. Someone asked me earlier about selling/trading/giving frags away when I had the dreaded red acro bugs.
When I first discovered I had these, I made comments about all my trimmings going into the garbage from now on, or trading only with other buggy people. But everyone so far has not cared. I tell people the bugs are there and it looks like Iodine kills them, but I warn everyone. People still want frags :eek:

It seems that nobody cares about these bugs. So my questions is just that...

Does nobody see these as a threat/problem, etc?? Are you still willing to put an infested (although dipped) frag into your system?? What is everyone thinking when getting frags from an affected system??

[zulu_principle]

Have you come to the conclusion that they are harmful ?

[Aquattro]

I always suspected they were bad, but can't conclude anything. I have, as you know, read comments by noted authors stating they felt they were NOT harmful. Other more experienced people also state they cause no damage. I just say I would rather not have them in my tank. I don't think they're good.

[StirCrazy]

I think the only reasonable course of action is to rip down the whole tank and dip every rock and coral in iodine. Throw out yor sand and bleach all your equipment for 2 weeks.. then you can buy new sand and start reintroducing all your rock and coral into the tank.
:BIG:

Seriously though, if a dip kills them and doesent kill the corals as long aas people are prepared to do the dip I don't see a problem. it is like flat worms.. if you know they are there you can take aproperate action to prevent them from getting into your tank.
:microwav:

Steve

[Jack]

Well... I don't mind them :rolleyes: But I wish I didn't have them they just make me nervous.

But anyways, I have found no ill effects as of yet but there are two factors that negate a full analysis by me:

1) I haven't had the bugs long

2) I don't have many Acropora... yet :razz:

I will let you know if they start annyoing me and my corals. Brad, I'd love to trade frags, lol.

Oh, should I bother taking my huge acro out of the tank and dipping it, or would you consider my tank screwed on part of just having the bugs now?

[Aquattro]

Oh, should I bother taking my huge acro out of the tank and dipping it, or would you consider my tank screwed on part of just having the bugs now?

No, you're screwed!! I do have a test to perform, but I need a whole whack of cyanobacteria to perform my experiment!!

[Jack]

No, you're screwed!!

Great! :neutral:


LOL

[Aquattro]

Over 40 views and only three people have any comments????

[Samw]

Over 40 views and only three people have any comments????


Haven't seen said acro bugs yet. However, with all the diversity in my tank, hopefully something will eat it. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I've had the odd red flatworm come in on frags but I can't find them in my tank anymore. So either these flatworms and acro bugs are all hiding or something is eating or will eat them.

[christyf5]

So how much is a whole whack of cyanobacteria?? Is that the brown one?? I think I may be approaching an entire whack or possibly may have 3/4 of a whack.

Christy :)

BTW, I have Brad Frags without red bugs. I'm pretty myopic but don't see them so far anyway.

[Aquattro]

But you had no problem taking a frag from me......why? Did you feel certain that the bugs could be removed by iodine, or what other thought process happened? I'm just trying to figure out why there isn't much concern. Why were you not too concerned with a frag from my tank?

[Aquattro]

the above was addressed to Sam, not Christy.

[Aquattro]

So how much is a whole whack of cyanobacteria?? Is that the brown one?? I think I may be approaching an entire whack or possibly may have 3/4 of a whack.

.

Christy, I need the red. For the testing, I think I can get enough at the LFS, but if I'm correct, I'll need to half fill my tank with it :eek:

[christyf5]

Yikes, I only have it growing on my powerhead cords at the moment :eek: . I hope I never have enough to fill your tank (although with my luck :rolleyes: ).

[Samw]

But you had no problem taking a frag from me......why? Did you feel certain that the bugs could be removed by iodine, or what other thought process happened? I'm just trying to figure out why there isn't much concern. Why were you not too concerned with a frag from my tank?


I didn't feel terribly concerned because so far I haven't come across any readings that warn me of definite danger from acro bugs.

What experiment are you doing with cyno?

[Aquattro]

Sam, a couple of people noted that after treating their tank for cyano, using various cyano killers, that the red bugs had vanished. I suspect the cyano(which is highly toxic) died, ticked off the acros enough to cause them to slime up for a day (symptom reported). The toxins adsorbed to the slime and were consumed by the bugs. Result = dead bugs. They are small and probably feed constantly, so toxic slime over the 24 hours reported would affect every one of them. Both these people confirmed that the bugs had not returned after this. I plan on setting up a nano red bug acro tank and replicating this scenario.

[StirCrazy]

Set up a new tank and I am sure we can get cyno to grow.. I was a pro at growin g cyno for a month or two :neutral:

Steve

[Aquattro]

Something wrong here....118 views and only 5 people have opinions???? Can people please give some type of response? Either you care, don't care, have no idea what I'm talking about or can't type. Those that can't type need not reply :razz:

[AJ_77]

IF you're sure that the slime soaked up the toxins from the cyano-cures, then off you go. If perhaps just the presence of the cyano-cure in the water killed the bugs, then you have a much simpler experiment.

Separate some bugs and treat the water with chemi-clean or other product, then view the results. Maybe that'll do it...

[Aquattro]

Alan, that's been tried. Medicating in the abcense of cyano does nothing.

Back to the topic. Would you put a frag from my tank in yours? Why? Why not?

[Delphinus]

What do you mean Brad? What do I think about your cyanobacteria experiment or what do I think about trading frags that are possible carriers of a potential pest? I have no idea about the former, sounds interesting though, and good luck; and on the latter, well I guess I would have to say "caveat emptor". How much damage are the bugs actually doing? Do they destroy the corals or are they more of just a visual nuisance?

If you're asking me if I would be willing to "chance it" on a trade for a coral that I knew was affected, the answer is "I don't know." It would depend, I suppose, on how badly I wanted the coral in question and if I felt I could or could not get it elsewhere. I like to keep an open mind; if I felt I could try to deal with the problem with iodine dips and a QT regimen or whatever then I might indeed chance it. If I felt it was a carrier of something that could potentially wipe out all my SPS, well then I would probably choose prudence and say "sorry" because there's just far too much invested in the setup as it stands, and since, as it is, there are so many things that can come along and devastate things (ie. heat spikes, catastropic equipment failure, etc.), I would probably ask myself why I would be keen to embrace yet another risk variable of that nature.

As it is with the bugs in question, well, I don't know how bad they are (I'm not disputing that they're bad, I'm merely admitting ignorance on the issue). So I would have to say, I would probably make a lot of observations and see what effect they're having, and maybe then read up the other threads, and then make a judgment call.

But like I said, I try to keep an open mind. I'm willing to live with things if they are not disrupting the peace.

But, OTOH, there are things wrong in the tank that make me miserable, and they're my own fault because I was too promiscuous about what I was taking in. For example I have caulerpa everywhere in my main display. If I don't actively prune it out every week, it profilerates and chokes out corals. I have some growing on a lavender M.cap, and the caulerpa does physical damage to the coral every once in a while. I try to remove it off the coral but it seems I can't get 100% of it, the root tendrils or whatever stay behind and grow again to do yet more damage. It's at the point where I have decided to admit defeat, and frag the coral. There's no longer any hope for the main colony, there is simply too much tissue recession. The frags might make it, however. In the end, I have nobody to blame for this but myself. I put that caulerpa into my tank, thinking, "oh heck I can keep it pruned back and it won't bother anyone." (Wrong!!!) So I guess my lesson learned here is that, indeed, if you're not willing to tear down a tank to deal with a problem that is causing you misery, then indeed you need to be rather picky and choosy about what you put into said tank.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'd never trade with you (if that is what you're asking me). Every time I see pictures of your setup, I think, "Dang, I wish my tank looked half as nice as that." Red bugs or no, your setup is still nicer than my own.

Anyways enough rambing I need to get back to work before someone discovers I'm just pretending to be working.... :wink:

[MitchM]

Brad, I'd take a frag no problem, but it has more to do with my attitude towards reefkeeping than any rules about pests. You're never going to get a sterile piece of LR, so it's a pretty good bet that sooner or later something undesirable is going to end up in your tank, no matter what precautions you take.
The best approach, IMO, is to observe whatever shows up in your tank and learn about it - what it eats, what kills it, what makes it multiply, ect.
The ocean isn't overrun with flatworms or red bugs, so if our systems are, we need to figure out how the limitations of our reef setups are allowing that to happen.

(I'm sure that helps you a lot........ :razz:)

Mitch

[Delphinus]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Aquattro]

Mitch, that does help a lot. I'm just curious on people's attitudes regarding accepting a potential pest on a frag. I would have guessed people would not take the chance, but that has not been my experience.
Your answer is exactly what I'm looking for....yes, no, or maybe, why or why not.

Tony, the cyano topic crept in here. The thread is about accepting frags that "may" introduce acro bugs to your system. So far, nobody has given it a second thought when getting frags from me.

[Delphinus]

I certainly wouldn't give it a second thought if I thought I was getting a piece of a really nice/coveted coral... and that it looked like the parent was none the worse for it...

[EmilyB]

It certainly didn't bother me to get those cool frags from you Brad :biggrin: I brought them home, dipped them and QT'd them for a bit.

Heck, I even brought home a flatworm rock once for the heck of it. They never survived in my system.

[Aquattro]

Heck, I even brought home a flatworm rock once for the heck of it.

There was a reason for this, right?? :biggrin:

[zulu_principle]

Brad

I would certainly take a frag from you, but I also own a microscope so I can see them and have the facilities for quarantine.

The overall health of the mother colony is extremely important in accepting a frag or offering a frag for sale or trade. I know you are not offering frags from "dying" colonies so the impact on a captive enviornment can be easily monitored.

But the fact is, these are almost, except in the stage of a major infestation invisible to the human eye.

I understand Ron Smimek is doing some studies and hopefully a full understanding of these will be forth coming in the near future.

Anyways, only my opinion but I have bought and sold a few frags.



Wendell

[Aquattro]

Wendell, it will be interesting to hear Ron's thoughts after studying them, althogh I had no idea he had given them more than a glance.

As far as seeing them, a handheld magnifying glass will do the trick. And I have confirmed under a scope that iodine does kill them and remove them from frags. Still, I would expect people to be more cautious about accepting strange frags.

And I'm not sure that the mother colony is a good example, since a frag is smaller and under additional stress from fragging. I also have some colonies that I believe are not doing as well as they could, due to these bugs.

Keep the opinions coming folks!!

[One_Divided]

I droped off a frag for Mike to look at at the Uvic facility today... Will be interesting to see what he finds with a good microscope..

At first, I saw no negative effects from the bugs, but I am now seeing serious loss of zoox on my heavily infested colony. I ahve also lost a small frag of which I blame on the bugs.


Brad, I hope you have some success with the little experemint.. I want these buggers out..