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AndyL
10-15-2008, 04:16 AM
Ok,

Sorry, no pictures of the tank today; got a few in the basement, but I'm just not going to get one cleaned up and ready to go tonight (busy arguing election results with the wife :mrgreen:) So this will really be a last minute thing :lol:

Here's where I'm starting - Grabbed a nasty broken AGA 5.5 yesterday, calipered the glass 2mm / 3/32"... Not going to survive what I intend- so I'll follow proper procedure, get ya a picture of a stock AGA 5.5g (although I can't fit my puppies into it). Going to rebuild tank out of 1/4" - adding 3" in length (for herbie overflow - display length will actually loose a bit down to 14 3/16").

Re-incarnation of tank:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/55contestsurgedims.jpg

Overall system (with stand):
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/55contestsurgecabinet.jpg

So why the huge stand you may ask?

Lots to squeeze in there... Surge Device (Likely carlson - borneman could be swapped in), Sump, Upside down DSB, Multitasking this - will also be acting as calcium reactor, been talking with a bio geek friend, CO2 will improve denitrification in DSB; CO2 + Aragonite = Calcium reactor... CO2 of course blows the budget - So I'm going to pull an old planted tank trick out of my tookus (google "DIY CO2") Question becomes, do I have to deduct the cost of the coke bottle (Full) or Empty (deposit - could of course argue it'll be recycled later thus no net cost :lol:) I'm just praying Food & additives covers me on sugar + yeast :biggrin: Stand also needs to fit lights (yet to be determined, I hear aquagiant closed shop - now I'm scrambling) May end up going 4x15w T8 for cost savings, but I'm going to build to allow for T5HO upgrade after... Oi vey, how the heck am I gonna run this with a single pump?

I'll bombard a little more tomorow...

Andy

JDigital
10-15-2008, 04:32 AM
Interesting... Curious to see how you plan to stay in your budget. lol

sphelps
10-15-2008, 05:11 AM
Wow sounds like the most complicated 5.5 I've every seen :razz:

ElGuappo
10-15-2008, 05:21 AM
Interesting... Curious to see how you plan to stay in your budget. lol

Must be thinking ahead for upgrades after the contest.:wink:

AndyL
10-15-2008, 05:21 AM
Extensive use of Plumbing supplies + freebies... :) You had to know I had motive in mind when I was asking if EVERYTHING in the plumbing aisle @ Rona/HomeDespots was fair game :D

UDSB/CR will be made out of some really big PVC pipe, Media - well Aragonite Sand is a freebie. Sump & Surge tanks will be rubbermaid brand (3.97 and 2.98 respectively), rest is all plumbing parts (including bourneman surge - Toilet flush valves are plumbing parts). CO2 Generator - like I said, Coke bottle (1.19 worst case + air line + plumbing fittings) I await a ruling on sugar and yeast (In theory covered, if I needed I suppose I could dish out for Zeovit adatives which are little more than that)

About the worst will be the tank rebuild costs + a ~400gph @ 4' head pump; and lighting... Savings here is in having 1 pump drive everything (out of sump into UDSB - out of udsb into surge (dump into surge + dump into tank should remove most of the CO2; if not I have another one of those crazy pvc (freebie!) fixes in mind) Surge @ ~20 second intervals should cover flow adequately; especially given residual waves trapped in tank by bubbletrap.

$'s are going to be a bit tight for livestock, no fancy acans, or rare SPS... But I've got some idears; and I can't wait to see how some of the "plainer" (read cheap like borscht) sps will grow under true reef crest surge conditions...

AndyL
10-15-2008, 05:24 AM
Wow sounds like the most complicated 5.5 I've every seen :razz:
:lol: I'll send you some links to some 2.5's that'll blow your mind :lol:

AndyL
10-16-2008, 12:04 AM
Ok, so here's the obligatory empty shot... Sorry, I tried to get pepper into the tank... But we realized she couldn't even wear it as a hat :lol: Thus I bribed her with a milkbone to pose...

Entry fee paypal'd to JD at some ungodly hour of the morning...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/DSCF6840.jpg

Spent first $ on the project today... On a nice new 5.5g AGA to save me cleaning an old one up; Then I went down to Elite, begged pleaded and groveled with Colby - He'll be "rebuilding" the AGA in 1/4" glass (see first picture) and adding a eurobrace (I spent the night with nightmares about slosh - 2.5g test tank didn't reassure me - thus the last minute addition), we agreed to 60$, ETA 10 days. :shocked!:

So 190$ left... Luckily, this is where I budgeted to be at this point...

ElGuappo
10-16-2008, 01:14 AM
:lol: I'll send you some links to some 2.5's that'll blow your mind :lol:

id like to see some of these!:mrgreen:

AndyL
10-16-2008, 01:22 AM
I'll see what I can do :) Most are bookmared on the old server; that I can't seem to break into for the life of me (forgot the damn password).

noirsphynx
10-16-2008, 01:32 AM
id like to see some of these!:mrgreen:

Same here :biggrin:

AndyL
10-16-2008, 02:29 AM
Comments needed...

JDigital's Suggesting I'm absolutely not following the rules of the contest, as "the AGA 5.5 Has to be used".


GENERAL GUIDELINES:
-You can mod all you want as long as you start with a STOCK tank and deduct costs from your budget.


His argument is I'm breaking the rules by having the tank custom built/rebuilt with 5mm glass + 3" overflow extension. I've assumed that by keeping the overall outside dimensions (except for the 3" overflow addition), I was following within the rules. Including deducting all costs to do this.

Now perhaps my original question to JDigital was pushing a bit much. (I did ask if I could reuse the stock aga 5.5 as my sump) In retrospect, I'll stick to my rubbermaid sump...

I can see JD's point, so where do we go from here?

I've started with a AGA 5.5 STOCK tank... Complete with hood & AGA packaging. Do y'all want to see a dissasembly of the 5.5, and a pane by pane replacment? This would fall within the rules as I read them - or can I just skip the dissasembly of a 5.5?

What do you guys think/want?

karazy
10-16-2008, 02:31 AM
i think the fairest thing to do would be to disasemble the stock tank and then add on

JDigital
10-16-2008, 03:12 AM
My explanation stands as per my latest PM.

I made a clear point no custom tanks were allowed in the Original contest thread.

"GENERAL GUIDELINES:
-You can mod all you want as long as you start with a STOCK tank and deduct costs from your budget."

Mod the STOCK tank.. Not, break it down into pieces, then get a shop to build you a new tank out of stronger glass.

Of course you have to use the stock tank... what would be the point in making everyone go buy a AGA tank, just so they can toss it to the side and get a shop to build them a new one with different glass? You keep mentioning "rebuild"... you're not getting the stock one "rebuilt", your getting a completely new tank built with new glass.

I'm sorry if you don't think this is fair, but you are not the first person I have talked to about this subject.

PoonTang
10-16-2008, 04:09 AM
Regardless if you can use this in the contest or not please keep us posted on your progress. This is going to be one kickass tank, you have alot of interesting concepts that i would like to see finished.

ElGuappo
10-16-2008, 04:12 AM
if i recall Michika wanted to do the same thing with glass she had left over and it was disallowed.

AndyL
10-16-2008, 05:21 AM
JDigital - brought this out of pm's so it's out there and transparent to everyone. Then there's no questions later on.

If it's a matter of colby doing the work - I'm more than happy to build the tank myself...

So, If I'm to tear down the 5.5g, remove and replace the sides n bottom (adding 3", in 1/4" of course), Laminate the ends together to create an adequate back, install a new front... Laminate the sides & cut to length to create the 3 baffles, Use the old bottom to create a eurobrace... Then we wouldn't be having this conversation right?

Rebuilt / built - take your pick, I can't go out and buy a AGA built out of 1/4" glass; and the factory 2mm will not last (Blew a seam on my AGA 2.5g last night test running a 1g surge; same construction same glass thickness); thus it doesn't meet my needs thus as the rules say, modding to meet my needs. Which is allowed, I have a picture of a 5.5g stock tank - My modding is going to start with replacing all the glass; not asking to have this for free - I'm happy to account for the costs... Name the terms; I don't see why I can't replace all the glass, but If I have to go with the previous paragraph, I can do that too...

JDigital
10-16-2008, 05:57 AM
JDigital - brought this out of pm's so it's out there and transparent to everyone. Then there's no questions later on.

If it's a matter of colby doing the work - I'm more than happy to build the tank myself...

So, If I'm to tear down the 5.5g, remove and replace the sides n bottom (adding 3", in 1/4" of course), Laminate the ends together to create an adequate back, install a new front... Laminate the sides & cut to length to create the 3 baffles, Use the old bottom to create a eurobrace... Then we wouldn't be having this conversation right?

Rebuilt / built - take your pick, I can't go out and buy a AGA built out of 1/4" glass; and the factory 2mm will not last (Blew a seam on my AGA 2.5g last night test running a 1g surge; same construction same glass thickness); thus it doesn't meet my needs thus as the rules say, modding to meet my needs. Which is allowed, I have a picture of a 5.5g stock tank - My modding is going to start with replacing all the glass; not asking to have this for free - I'm happy to account for the costs... Name the terms; I don't see why I can't replace all the glass, but If I have to go with the previous paragraph, I can do that too...

I don't care if Colby does it, you do it, or anyone else... replacing the glass with thicker glass is out of the question. You are making this more difficult that it should be.... If you can't build the setup with a stock tank, then so be it.

I think your idea is great, and would love to see this tank, but your not allowed to replace the stock glass. I told sphelps that, I told michika that, and a couple others that only wanted to build a custom tank who decided to opt out of the contest. If you need to discuss this further, feel free to call me.

sphelps
10-16-2008, 06:08 AM
This is true, I wanted to rebuild the tank mainly for thicker glass, but to stay withing the rules I kept all viewing panels original and used all the glass in the build. I'm not a huge fan of some of the rules but they are what they are, I've already tried your angle and it won't fly so you'll have to figure something else out.

AndyL
10-16-2008, 07:39 AM
What's killing me is I started this thread yesterday with my full plan laid out - to avoid questions/disputes after the contest started... Nobody said a thing - 2nd paragraph of the first post says "rebuild with 1/4" glass adding 3" in length". Today this becomes a problem... This is where the frustration lies.

So, where does the compromise lie - I can tear this down as detailed in my last post still retain all the glass but add some new sides, 1 end and bottom. Other option I see is to laminate all the glass, still extending the length still retaining all glass in factory location - just adding 1/8" laminated over top.

Stab_Master_Arson
10-16-2008, 07:55 AM
does the glass need to be thicker for drilling purposes? To withstand 22 cal gun fire? I am lost.

JDigital
10-16-2008, 08:31 AM
What's killing me is I started this thread yesterday with my full plan laid out - to avoid questions/disputes after the contest started... Nobody said a thing - 2nd paragraph of the first post says "rebuild with 1/4" glass adding 3" in length". Today this becomes a problem... This is where the frustration lies.

So, where does the compromise lie - I can tear this down as detailed in my last post still retain all the glass but add some new sides, 1 end and bottom. Other option I see is to laminate all the glass, still extending the length still retaining all glass in factory location - just adding 1/8" laminated over top.


I didn't get a chance to read your thread after the my initial post (made after a quick look at the sketch-up illustrations). I didn't see anything about your plans until I caught up on some threads today.

Compromise is thus: You have to use the stock tank (modified if needed). You can't use/replace 1/4" glass in the display. It becomes a CUSTOM tank, built for the specific needs of the surge. I don't know what this 1/8" laminate is... Will it work for you?

AndyL
10-16-2008, 02:09 PM
Laminating glass = basically sandwiching another pane of glass over an existing pane. Basically gluing another layer of glass over the original.

Though my question becomes what happens if I break a piece - glass as thin as these tanks are made of; is special order... The 10's are 3mm easy peasy - but 2mm is not easy to come by.

sphelps
10-16-2008, 04:11 PM
I'd say remove the one side and extend the tank for your overflow needs, or drill the tank and make some kind of internal or external overflow. If the tank breaks from the surge you're obviously using too much surge, there's no way corals will like that much water movement, not to mention the sand and rock structure.

You're making this more complicated than it needs to be, you're using a sump so you don't need an AIO, all you need is an overflow and there are plenty of ways to do that within the rules.

AndyL
10-16-2008, 04:46 PM
I'm going to dissagree on too much surge, I've got a pretty good idea how much surge I'm needing (based on testing & referencing other tanks). It's not so much the glass I'm worried about, it's the limited section of silicone adhesion... If the 2.5g blew a seam with a 1g surge, I have little faith in those same dimensional seams holding on a 5.5 even with a minimal surge. Thus the reason for the reinforcing.

There are many ways I could approach building this, however as far as the tank, I'm going to run with what I know to work (I'm testing/tuning enough other theories with this tank). Overall design was done like this for two reasons, the full width overflow is sized to handle the surge of water (calculated flow) baffle system is to keep the water level at a minimum height, herbie overflow is used for noise control - may actually add a third bulkhead (base + surge + emergency). To me this is simplest/easiest/quietest way...

sphelps
10-16-2008, 05:24 PM
If you're worried about the seams reinforce them by siliconing some plastic, wood or aluminum corner covers on them.

A Herbie will not be quiet with a surge, especially 1 gallon on such a small tank. A Herbie works on the bases of steady state flow.

I'm just going to come out with this, seriously a surge on a 5.5?? What possible benefit could you get from that? Noise and air bubbles, sounds kind of silly to me when you could use a maxijet on a timer and get the same random flow without the complications. Call me crazy but I usually try and avoid things that are unnecessary and cause problems and complications, but maybe that's just me.

AndyL
10-17-2008, 12:00 AM
I'm well aware of how a herbie works; been using them on quite a number of sytems since '04.

Seriously, you don't see it? Powerheads = heat this will be a problem in 5.5's; using wavemaker type timing devices are generally less than reliable and of all the ones I've seen (short of the tunze wave boxes; and that eco(name escapes me) neither appropriate for a nano) they don't manage to produce proper wave action.

Here's one of the tanks which gave me the idea years and years ago to try this out... The video links don't work anymore, but the pictures are still there...

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=69539&view=findpost&p=770299

Der_Iron_Chef
10-17-2008, 12:48 AM
AndyL....I give you props for thinking outside the box (or the stock AGA, in this case). I would love to see a surge device on a 5.5G, and I hope you can still make it work! Could you reinforce the seams with small strips of glass siliconed at the corners? I know that's probably not the clean look you're going for. You sound pretty handy, though.

Anyway, I hope you keep the idea, if only for my own selfish curiosity :D

AndyL
10-17-2008, 01:11 AM
Meh, let's see what JDigital says about laminating the glass Since I'd be keeping all the original glass in its original location, just adding glass over top - that might work. If I can go that way, I will... My interest in this contest was as an incentive to get off my arse and try the CSD & put the theory into a test on the UDSB/CR concept...

I don't think reinforcing the corners will be adequate; I might be able to test it out on another 2.5 - see if it lasts (First 2.5 blew after ~40hrs), but I have my doubts about it... Have to see if I can come up with some kind of corner bead material that would work for such a purpose.

JDigital
10-17-2008, 02:14 AM
Meh, let's see what JDigital says about laminating the glass Since I'd be keeping all the original glass in its original location, just adding glass over top - that might work. If I can go that way, I will... My interest in this contest was as an incentive to get off my arse and try the CSD & put the theory into a test on the UDSB/CR concept...

I don't think reinforcing the corners will be adequate; I might be able to test it out on another 2.5 - see if it lasts (First 2.5 blew after ~40hrs), but I have my doubts about it... Have to see if I can come up with some kind of corner bead material that would work for such a purpose.

I don't have a problem with lamination... its a mod. :)

AndyL
10-17-2008, 02:46 AM
Thanks Josh,

So, Plan now will be to dissasemble the full tank, laminate all panes, extend 3" thus creating the original drawing - with a few extra seams :) Guess I need to order me a sheet of 3mm tomorow...

Suppose this is actually a bonus, should regain a good 40$ into the budget; I think I can find a place to use that!

AndyL
10-17-2008, 04:16 AM
Here's one of the tanks which gave me the idea years and years ago to try this out... The video links don't work anymore, but the pictures are still there...

Found a video - doesn't show the nice surge action this tank had though... Get a bit of the feel of it here and there though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLPob7yUKO0

AndyL
10-20-2008, 04:26 AM
No real update... Having some technical issues...

Testing out some plumbing; checking out the overall plumbing & testing parts together to see how things will work... Popped a seam on the tank in the process of all the testing.

Looks like my pump estimate is a little low (Head loss estimate on a sand filled 4" pipe was apparently 50% off), not even enough to drive the CSD as I had previously tuned it (may keep it and run a borneman instead?); or possibly re-tune the CSD to work in this configuration - which is another monster, There's so many little adjustments to make to get this working right... The Borneman is sounding better every minute.

AndyL
10-25-2008, 03:57 AM
Well, busy week (unfortunately not in good ways), but made some progress...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/th_CSDTestSmall.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/?action=view&current=CSDTestSmall.flv)

Tested a few variations on the carlson, tried out the bourneman... Decided I liked the flow from this version of the CSD best.

Yes, that's the 'was not to be' colby built tank - still practicing my laminating technique; hopefully I'll have the tank done next weekend.

AndyL
10-25-2008, 09:34 PM
For those (Sphelps and others) who wonder if a herbie works with a carlson surge - and doubts about whether it can be used...

Refining the previous tank tests; herbie installed. You'll note syphon from Carlson the hum from the mag 3; and the splash from the return pumps temporary plumbing can be heard... Otherwise pretty quiet.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/th_CSDTest2.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/?action=view&current=CSDTest2.flv)

superduperwesman
10-26-2008, 12:35 AM
For those (Sphelps and others) who wonder if a herbie works with a carlson surge - and doubts about whether it can be used...

Refining the previous tank tests; herbie installed. You'll note syphon from Carlson the hum from the mag 3; and the splash from the return pumps temporary plumbing can be heard... Otherwise pretty quiet.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/th_CSDTest2.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/cgyreefer/contest/?action=view&current=CSDTest2.flv)

I'm confused??? I like your bubbles and slurping??:question:

sphelps
10-26-2008, 02:33 AM
For those (Sphelps and others) who wonder if a herbie works with a carlson surge - and doubts about whether it can be used...


Yeah cause that works great, like I said before noisy and air bubbles. And that herbie is doing exactly what I told you it would, I mean the emergency back up even has to kick in every time the surge hits and eventually the timing will become out of whack. Honestly you should swap it out for two durso's or stockman's it'll work much better and much quieter. Just trying to help buddy.

Now you'll have to excuse me, for some reason I all of a sudden have to use the bathroom. :mrgreen:

All kidding aside I do admire your innovation but you can't honestly say I was wrong :confused:

AndyL
10-26-2008, 02:54 AM
Emergency backup kicks in for about 300ml each surge, no real noise associated as the pipe doesn't even come close to filling (1"). Noise you hear at the moment the level hits the emergency is actually the CSD's syphon.

Durso's and stockmans in this configurations don't work at all well - they need to be much more tuned to flow than is possible in this system. Thus the tuning of the main w/ filling the overflow area to accomodate the majority of the surge is the preferable method. (Did test your theory; tuned for minimal and maximal flow, and one of each - either way consistantly sounds like a badly tuned stockman or durso)

However, flow in the tank is friggin awesome :) Dunno how well it shows on the video (did add some crud (Scientific term for the stuff at the bottom of the mixing tank) to show better) Get some awesome vortices running in the corners of the tank that peter out into the middle; that should make for some interesting random flow :)

sphelps
10-26-2008, 03:22 AM
Good for you, as long as your happy and can live with it. Still don't see how you figure that herbie was a good choice but still interesting to see.

AndyL
11-08-2008, 06:01 PM
Well, due to circumstances, I think I"ll be pulling out...

We were expecting to move when our lease was up in the new year; except due to a variety of issues we're now being forced to move sooner than planned...

I could get a FTS for nov 15th, but then the tank would be coming down almost immediately to move; and likely would just barely be up in time for the Dec FTS.

Between some reservations about how the contest is run; current life situation... Perhaps this is just not the right time to be competing for me at the moment...

sphelps
11-08-2008, 07:28 PM
Sorry to hear that, but how hard is it to move a 5.5?

If this continues someone is going to win the 5.5 contest by default before the contest is over.

Ryan_Lap
11-08-2008, 08:49 PM
Sorry to hear that, but how hard is it to move a 5.5?

If this continues someone is going to win the 5.5 contest by default before the contest is over.

The 5.5 category shouldnt even exist as an individual prize payout. It should just be merged with the 10g. How many people are even left in the 5.5 if andyL pulls out? 1?

sphelps
11-08-2008, 09:40 PM
The 5.5 category shouldnt even exist as an individual prize payout. It should just be merged with the 10g. How many people are even left in the 5.5 if andyL pulls out? 1?

Yeah we should merge the two categories and have 1st and 2nd place prizes. Even with three people in the 5.5 they have a 1 in 3 chance of winning the same prize as the 10g which is 1 in 10. Plus now two of the three are probably dropping out.

I think you guys are giving up too easy, we should put a drop out fee in place :lol:

Chaloupa
11-08-2008, 09:45 PM
hmmm so I guess that would directly mean ME who is put with the 10g. OK, no problem with it...however I should get the same budget then:biggrin:.....maybe??? I don't have as good a chance with those 10's out there...they're spectacular already! But I'm willing to give it a go!

I am sorry that there aren't more in the 5.5g...it is a challenge to do and I thought more would be up for the challenge! Sorry to hear that you're leaving the contest...tis sad to lose one.

sphelps
11-08-2008, 09:52 PM
hmmm so I guess that would directly mean ME who is put with the 10g. OK, no problem with it...however I should get the same budget then:biggrin:.....maybe??? I don't have as good a chance with those 10's out there...they're spectacular already! But I'm willing to give it a go!

I am sorry that there aren't more in the 5.5g...it is a challenge to do and I thought more would be up for the challenge! Sorry to hear that you're leaving the contest...tis sad to lose one.

Yes I think you should have the same budget. You will have one advantage, your tank will require less stock so it will be easier to pack with corals within budget.

I'd like to see the 5.5 guys all stay in, it's a shame they can't work it out.

Chaloupa
11-08-2008, 09:53 PM
Yes I think you should have the same budget. You will have one advantage, your tank will require less stock so it will be easier to pack with corals within budget.

I'd like to see the 5.5 guys all stay in, it's a shame they can't work it out.

WOOT! I'd like to see it too...it's a fun size!

Ryan_Lap
11-08-2008, 09:54 PM
yah andyL, try and stay in the contest. It wont be that hard to move. Its not like your tank blew apart....lol

AndyL
11-09-2008, 12:41 AM
Little more than just simply moving - dont forget I've been told I have to use the factory 5.5's glass - thus I've still got to finish up laminating all the glass (4 panes done thus far) + building the "new" contest tank. Meanwhile I'm trying to get my DIY'ing parts packed up and organized for the move... With a pregnant wife - so I can't let her do much either...

JDigital
11-09-2008, 02:17 AM
I think you guys are giving up too easy, we should put a drop out fee in place :lol:


There is.... it's called "No Refund".

Ryan_Lap
11-09-2008, 02:19 AM
There is.... it's called "No Refund".

I think that was expected....:biggrin:

sphelps
11-09-2008, 02:50 AM
There is.... it's called "No Refund".
Yeah I know, but I ment an additional fee for not completing, but I was only kidding.

JDigital
11-09-2008, 03:13 AM
Yeah I know, but I ment an additional fee for not completing, but I was only kidding.

Would be impossible to enforce anyways... :wink:

JDigital
11-15-2008, 06:17 PM
Contest Reminder:

**Updated FTS and Budget Required today (Nov 15/08) to remain in the contest**

AndyL
11-15-2008, 10:56 PM
Contest Reminder:

**Updated FTS and Budget Required today (Nov 15/08) to remain in the contest**

Like I've previously stated... Dropped out. Not going to be posting a FTS / Budget today.

Will start a new non-contest thread in a few weeks once we get settled post move...

superduperwesman
11-15-2008, 11:56 PM
Sorry to hear that Andy... I'll be sure to watch out for your tank down the road once you get moved.