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View Full Version : Sand beds: What do you need and why.


Aquattro
09-03-2008, 02:32 AM
So, again the topic of sand beds comes up. Here's my take. I started in this hobby 10 years ago, when the DSB was the rage. I started my 75g with about a 5" DSB, using the new and wonderful oolitic sand. It was great. In very little time, I had a fully stocked SPS tank, no measureable NO3, and things were growing like crazy. For a while. Actually, pretty long while. But, about 4 years into the tank, things started going bad; wafer algae, valonia, all kinds of stuff I couldn't ID. Then dinos. That was fun. It was suggested that I swap out my sand, a third at a time. Well let me tell you, after the first third, I pulled it all immediately as I felt really bad for my fish. This sand was the worse smelling, foulest substance I've ever come across (at the time). I replaced it with about an inch of sand, and slowly, but surely, my problems cleared up.
Next wave: Suddenly, about 5 years ago, people started removing sand completely. OMG, you can't do that, what about nitrates. Well, I tried it, with a new setup, same 75g tank. I added about 65# of rock, 8000+GPH flow and away we went. SPS growing like crazy, colors were unbelievable and best of all, 0ppm NO3. Zip. Nothing. So, in my mind, good quality rock (as defined in a thread I posted within the last year) is as good as having sand, well, without all that yucky sand.
So, today. My current tank 90g, 125g sump, with 70# LR. I have added about 2" of sand, the courser stuff, just for appearance's sake. I have some diatoms (tank had a rough start) and I have a bit of clumping, not sure why yet, but still, my NO3 is 0. No, I haven't been using the same test kit for 10 years :)

To my point. Is having a sand bed good or bad? Is it good to look at, or is it serving a purpose, and if it's serving a purpose, what is it? No, please don't say it adds Ca, it really doesn't in any amount we care about. Is having a shallow bed bad, or just not as good as a deeper bed? Assuming a deeper bed is good at all.
Honestly, if I thought my rock would stay up, I'd pull the stuff tonight.

so what does everyone think about sand? Do you use it? If so, how much and for what purpose? If you don't, do you miss it? Why or why not?

Ok, go!

marie
09-03-2008, 02:58 AM
I have a sort of shallow bed, up to 4" in some spots where the flow is low down to 0" where the flow removed it all.
I have never had any problems that I could definitely point to the sand bed and say "you did it" and I really like the look of sand even when it won't stay where I put it :mrgreen:


*edit* I use sugar sand now. I've tried the coarser stuff and found I had problems with detritus settling underneath, with the sugar sand the detritus is larger then the sand (for the most part) and stays on top until water flow, fish or worms clean it up

PoonTang
09-03-2008, 03:17 AM
Well I use a DSB both in my DT and in my fuge. To my understanding the DSB is all about Anerobic Bacteria that a Shallow SB wont have. Without getting into a bunch or reasearch etc apparently these Anerobic bacteria are good for our tank. Where I stray a little from the normal practice is in the fact that most say that a DSB is a do not touch zone. In other words, you should never disturb it because you will release all sorts of nasty stuff into the water column and mass death will occur etc... Well It is regarded in some circles that these DSB eventually become plugged with all kinds gooky stuff leading to Old tank syndrome, algae, phosphates etc. Hence this is the source of your smelly sand etc Aqquatro? Some current thinking, which I am currently following, is to regularly stir up small areas of your DSB everytime you do a water change. Say no more than 10% by surface area, this will release all the trapped detrius, SO2 bubbles etc into the watercolumn but not in amounts enough to do any harm. Thus renewing the sand bed and removing some of the nasty stuff that gets trapped there. My fish actually seem to enjoy it as I am sure that I am releasing little bugs too within the small dust storm I create. Anyways, not saying what is right or wrong, Its just the course that I am currently following.

mark
09-03-2008, 03:19 AM
Had the 4-6" DSB for ~3 years, had some cyano when starting but could have been me just starting, using tap water etc, but did clear up. When I moved and dumped the sand, didn't smell much different than my water does now. Really it smelt fine.

When I set up the current tank did BB with the plan of adding either a SSB (1-2") or a DSB later but the BB sort of grew on me so never bothered. Now years later with the coralline people will come over and I'll mention the BB idea and they'll say didn't notice there was no sand.

Personally, do have to say I like sand the best for the looks plus the extra diversity to what you can keep over a BB, just not enough the add a bed myself.

Treebeard
09-03-2008, 03:23 AM
I would also say I have a shallow sand bed. It varies from 1" to over 4 inches deep depending on the sand dwellers. I have a couple of critters that seem to do a great job of stirring up the sand.

A dragon goby lives under the rocks and is constantly moving sand around. He sucks it up in his mouth and blows it out from under the rocks creating large mounds. When I clean the inside of the glass I purposely level the mounds and he starts again from scratch!

I also have a cat's eye snail that moves around under the sand. Sometimes he surfaces and climbs the side of the tank, takes a peek out of the water and then heads back down under the sand. I had not seen him for weeks, and assumed he had died but he resurfaced last week alive and well!

Myka
09-03-2008, 03:29 AM
All I think a sandbed is good for is aesthetics and burrowing places for Gobies and Jawfish and such. As long as your rock is functioning properly, there is no reason to have sand otherwise. Personally, I like the aesthetics of sand, and I like Gobies and Jawfish, so I have sand in my tank - about 1 1/2". ;)

marie
09-03-2008, 03:36 AM
Had the 4-6" DSB for ~3 years, had some cyano when starting but could have been me just starting, using tap water etc, but did clear up. When I moved and dumped the sand, didn't smell much different than my water does now. Really it smelt fine.

...

When I moved from my 3yr old 75g up to my 175g I decided to replace the sand because that was the thing to do. After all the livestock was moved and I went to clean out the 75g, the sand (approx 3" deep) had no smell and was as white as could be I wished afterwards that I had kept it

christyf5
09-03-2008, 03:37 AM
I also rode the DSB bandwagon and I had very little success with it. I was really successful at growing algae but then I've always been good at growing algae though so I can't say that it was the result of having a sandbed. However after battling dinoflagellates after a year, I restarted my tank twice. The first time was because I was using the coarser grade of sand (not the oolitic, the other stuff) and I was "supposed" to be using the oolitic, and it was "supposed" to be shallow. That would definitely cure my dino problem, it was my "old" sandbed (3 yrs old) that was causing the issues. The tank lasted 4 weeks before I could clearly see the tank was having issues again: there were incredible piles of grey detritus building up on it. Then I heard people were going without DSBs. I figured what the hell, I was almost out of the hobby anyways so I yarded that sandbed out as well.

Since that day in 2004 I have had nothing but success in keeping corals. Ya ya I've had various other issues mostly from stupidity/faulty equipment/more stupidity but my corals keep on growin after they recover from whatever stupid thing I've done to them.

I would definitely put myself in that category of people who just can't have a tank with a sandbed. I love the look but my tank would have to be a glass box full of rock and water. No corals and no fish for me to be "successful" with it.

As for the anerobic zone, some say 4 inches is enough some say 6 inches. Personally I don't think the anaerobic zone in a sandbed is "healthy" (but then again theres all sorts of critters worming around in it) and most of the nitrate reducing activities can certainly take place in the rock. And they do or my tank would be full of nitrates because my fish eat like pigs and crap like a herd of cattle :razz:

ElGuappo
09-03-2008, 03:39 AM
All I think a sandbed is good for is aesthetics and burrowing places for Gobies and Jawfish and such. As long as your rock is functioning properly, there is no reason to have sand otherwise. Personally, I like the aesthetics of sand, and I like Gobies and Jawfish, so I have sand in my tank - about 1 1/2". ;)

pretty much bang on for me. 2'" normally and less or more depnding on flow. i had 2 sandsifters and 2 snails in there and i have no need to stir. after one tear when i did the rebuild i pulled 100% of my sand out and it smelled fine. also had a jawfish.

Edit** Also when i tore my tank down i used sand from exhisting tank to set up temp tank. peeled small layers with a net and put directly into tank fish were currently in. 10 G. so i think 2" is more than enough(imo).

Marlin65
09-03-2008, 06:18 AM
DSB need to be maintained and if that is done right there is no smell.
It should stay white and clean, but this requires maintenance.
Stirring the sand a bit ones in a while by hand or with animals feeds the corals organics, nutrients, and plankton. There are organisms living in the sand that most of us will never see as most come out at night. All this is beneficial to the full environment maintaining a complete ecosystem.
Live sand also provides micro fauna that provide food for the fish and inverts.
Worms ,mollusks,and tiny starfish are like earth worms to the gardener.
I have lots of sand in my tanks :biggrin:

EmilyB
09-03-2008, 08:16 AM
Don't stay up all night taking that sand out Brad. :razz:

Aquattro
09-03-2008, 01:36 PM
Don't stay up all night taking that sand out Brad. :razz:

Well, geez Deb, you coulda said that earlier!!

Lance
09-03-2008, 05:24 PM
I saw an interesting thread somewhere not too long ago, (maybe on RC). Anyway, the guy had cut plexiglass the size of the bottom of his tank. He sprayed styrofoam (the safe kind) onto the plexiglass and shaped it into little ridges and hills. Then while it was still wet he covered it with a very thin layer of sand, small pieces of rock, etc. When dry, he placed it on the bottom of the tank and then aquascaped with live rock and corals. It looked quite realistic and had none of the problems that comes with DSB. It is like having a BB tank but looks like it has a DSB. He just blows the detritus up into the water column. I'm seriusly considering this when I set up my 225 FOWLR.
I have coarse sand and crushed coral in my 90 gal reef; about 2-3 inches deep. There are things I like and don't like about it. It's easier to keep in place than the finer sand, but IMO doesn't look as good as the fine stuff. The 90 is 9 months old so I haven't really had any issues yet. I give it a bit of a stir from time to time and that's about it.

fkshiu
09-03-2008, 06:10 PM
I saw an interesting thread somewhere not too long ago, (maybe on RC). Anyway, the guy had cut plexiglass the size of the bottom of his tank. He sprayed styrofoam (the safe kind) onto the plexiglass and shaped it into little ridges and hills. Then while it was still wet he covered it with a very thin layer of sand, small pieces of rock, etc. When dry, he placed it on the bottom of the tank and then aquascaped with live rock and corals. It looked quite realistic and had none of the problems that comes with DSB. It is like having a BB tank but looks like it has a DSB. He just blows the detritus up into the water column. I'm seriusly considering this when I set up my 225 FOWLR.
I have coarse sand and crushed coral in my 90 gal reef; about 2-3 inches deep. There are things I like and don't like about it. It's easier to keep in place than the finer sand, but IMO doesn't look as good as the fine stuff. The 90 is 9 months old so I haven't really had any issues yet. I give it a bit of a stir from time to time and that's about it.

If I recall, the fake sandbed looked good for a few weeks and then got covered by more and more blotches of coralline. Seemed to be a lot of work for something that would only look neat and tidy for a short period of time.

Canadian
09-03-2008, 11:14 PM
I too did the DSB thing about 10 years ago. I followed "the Godfather's" (Ron Shimek's) gospel and did not disturb my sandbed. Things looked great for the first 1-2 years usually and then I would start to see obvious signs of accumulating organics and start running into problems. My response was to overhaul the tank including the sandbed and start fresh. Eventually I took a hiatus from the hobby for a few years when I had to move for school and vowed that when I returned I would never have a DSB again.

About a year ago I started up a nano SPS dedicated tank. I decided I'd try a SSB for aesthetics. That experiment lasted about 1 month before I got sick of seeing detritus accumulating in the sand despite copious amounts of nassarius snails and hermit crabs. When I moved my tank to Victoria I went BB - things were basically glorious. I then moved my tank when we moved into our new place last month. Under the influence of my fiance I added sand in the form of a SSB when I set the tank up again. I loved the aesthetic it supplied. I hated the organics it trapped. But, hey, I'm a guy and women make us do stupid things even when we know we shouldn't do them. Two days ago I yanked all the sand again and I will now remain BB for eternity unless someone comes up with some new fangled method of husbandry and some convincing explanations to get me to change.

I frequently read DSB proponents say that in a SPS dedicated tank you can still have a DSB as long as you're creative with your flow patterns. I don't want to compromise on the growth and color of my corals if I don't have to. I don't want to have to be creative with flow patterns when it would be easier to just blast away to my heart's content. With a BB I don't have to compromise and I can have what would be considered obscene numbers of fish with excessive feedings and still have to add amino acids to keep rich colors in my SPS. Personally, I would way rather have to add organics to my tank in a controlled fashion in order to keep nice colors than have to worry about how they are being sequestered, utilized and removed. But maybe that's just the control freak in me.

banditpowdercoat
09-04-2008, 03:13 AM
I have a SSB, for 8 months now. keep getting green algae growth on the front of the tank where the room lights shine on it. Makes me mad. Keep scraping the algae film off, only to have it come back a week later. Feeding less than half what I used to, lots more water changes too

npt sure if I like the work over the looks??

midgetwaiter
09-04-2008, 03:35 AM
There's no questioning that a deep sand bed or plenum does a really good job at removing nitrates, the science behind it is pretty well understood. Where people run into problem is actually getting the thing to work right, too many people end up with it turning into a nutrient slough.

I'm not sure there is an easy answer answer to getting it working either. You have to have the right amount of critters working to keep it clean but you can have too much of them as well. Sometimes putting something like a cucumber or sand star in there just results in having all the bacteria you are trying to keep going eaten and you end up with a crash eventually. It's a delicate balancing act.

Marlin65
09-04-2008, 03:57 PM
And needs to be seeded and maintained.
I think people get lazy and a bit bored after a number of years. They don't do as many water changes as they used to because the tank is running great after a few years.
Then the first place you will have problems will be your DSB.
So the problem is blamed there but in reality it is the husbandry of the tank that is the real problem.:wink:
My 2 cents.
I can't comment on running BB as I have always had sand. I just can't see how you would keep some fish happy without sand.

chevyjaxon
09-07-2008, 02:54 AM
i have a 4" sand bed never given me a problem i have 150 lb LR in my 90 gallon tank and only feed 2 times a week

Aquattro
09-07-2008, 04:56 AM
i have a 4" sand bed never given me a problem i have 150 lb LR in my 90 gallon tank and only feed 2 times a week

How long has this been running, and why so much rock?

Doug
09-07-2008, 01:32 PM
Brad, I added between 1 or 2in. of sand to my 90g. Its a larger grain size also or at least larger than the really fine bed. Just regular Carib-Sea, likely 1 -2mm in size.

Now dont ask me why :lol:. It looks purdy for now. As you know, I really am a bare bottomed fanatic. I was going to run a plenum in this tank but a few things turned my thoughts this way.

I,m prepared to siphon and replace some on occasion if thats needed to maintain it plus I plan on adding a lots of narcissus snails and some fighter conchs when the bed is mature enough for them. Its been close to 10 yrs, since I have run any sand in one of my tanks, so I guess we will see how it goes.

I may add I have never had any cyno since not having any sand. One sign of it and out it comes. Cyno and sand seem to go hand in hand. :lol:

o.c.d.
09-07-2008, 10:35 PM
I have ran a DSB for over 7 years, 6" to bare glass in some places(Due to clownfish). Over the years I have vac small areas but other than that I don't touch it. It produces food for my copperband and mandarin who both pilfer through it on a constant basis. I would attribute no problems from the large amount of flow that crosses over the DSB then is pushed up in the water column. My 2cents

Doug
09-08-2008, 01:36 PM
Well now I remember one reason I dislike sand. My 6080 cleared one end, 4ft. away. :lol:

Yea, clowns are bad for fanning it clear, likely out of habit to lay eggs, even if they dont. When I set my 90 up again, I put their pipe/eggcrate home back for them again.

http://216.187.96.54/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41750

Even though some of the pipe has sand on the bottom, they lay their eggs on the top, so hopefully thats ok.

Now I need to stop it from blowing around. I can point my 1200gph Hydor straight at the stream pump and its just overpowered. :lol:

gbeef
09-08-2008, 05:55 PM
I had a 3" sand bed in my old tank.. i have algae problems because i wasnt getting all the deitris... my new tank is BB.. heres the difference with both. I personally think sand is for asthetics unless over 4".... Why go barebottom?

Heres the difference "TIME"
Its faster to do a water change and clean with a BB water change will probably take 5 mins to get all the deitris from the and tank floor if there is any.

With sand its a crap shoot of 20 mins or more depending on much is in the sand floor and also being careful not to distrub the sand.

Personally i dont think theres a benfit to any other than looks and maybe Bacteria growth.

ElGuappo
09-08-2008, 06:08 PM
in my rsm i had a 3 inch sb and never had any issues of any kind. what i did have was people telling me my CUC was too big. however after about 6 monthes none of the CUC had died of starvation and people had begun to compliment the cleanlyness of my SB. my 33g RSM contained 6 turbo snails 12 marg snails 3 dovetail snails and 2 sandsifting stars. as well as about 15 hermits of varying size.

Now i did overfeeed on occasion just too be sure they were getting some food, but i almost never had any visable poo in my tank. also during water changes i almost never attempted to remove more than water.

As far as filtration goes i am unaware if this is enough sand, but i never had any spikes of any kind.

Just my 2 pennies.

Edit. i do however find my bb temp tank to need more maintanece then a tank with SB. between the turkey basting and water chages.