How to Humanely Kill Mantis Shrimp?

[Beverly]

Judging from the hitchhiker FAQ, we have a mantis shrimp living in our acropora. I've got a plan to get it out of the acro, but want to kill the poor devil once it's out. I'd appreciate any ideas of how to kill it without having it suffer in the process.

TIA.

[Delphinus]

My advice, don't kill it. There's probably someone who'd be interested in keeping one. Give him a chance; it's not his fault he got captured and is living in your tank. (*Yes I am a bleeding heart.. :cool: )

[Beverly]

My advice, don't kill it. There's probably someone who'd be interested in keeping one. Give him a chance; it's not his fault he got captured and is living in your tank. (*Yes I am a bleeding heart.. :cool: )

Okay, then, who wants a mantis shrimp? Pick up tonight, only, between 6 and 8 pm :neutral:

[Diomedes]

Use a nail, a pair of scissors, or something sharp and skewer it. Humanely and Kill don't go together too well...and the methods described above are very close to the methods used by mantis predators in the wild. Otherwise, trap it out like most people do and give it to someone with a species tank. Interesting though, Mantids don't usually find homes in Acros, as far as I know. There are a number of Alpheid spp. shrimps that are commensal with acropora's...they can make a snapping noise and are not dangerous. Can you elaborate what other evidence you have that this is a Mantis?


Stephen

[Quinn]

confirming that someone is certain to want him. don't kill him! heck maybe an LFS will take him off your hands.

if you can hold onto it for a few more weeks somehow (maybe in a very small plastic tank within your larger tanks), i will take him. he'd do fine in my sump, i'm sure. :confused: if bev can't hold on to him, can anyone else?

[Beverly]

Use a nail, a pair of scissors, or something sharp and skewer it. Humanely and Kill don't go together too well...and the methods described above are very close to the methods used by mantis predators in the wild. Otherwise, trap it out like most people do and give it to someone with a species tank. Interesting though, Mantids don't usually find homes in Acros, as far as I know. There are a number of Alpheid spp. shrimps that are commensal with acropora's...they can make a snapping noise and are not dangerous. Can you elaborate what other evidence you have that this is a Mantis?


Stephen

Here's a photo of it:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/42-acroshrimp.htm

Really, I'm not sure what the heck it is. I hate to kill any living thing, but if it's going to be dangerous to my reef, I want it gone. One fish has already mysteriously disappeared, and I have no idea how it happened :frown:

Opinions, please.

[Aquattro]

That is NOT a mantis shrimp. It looks like a crinoid snapping shrimp and is harmless. Please do not kill it.

to see real mantis shrimp, go to this site.

http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/

[Aquattro]

Could also be a juvenile pistol shrimp, again, not a concern. Buy a prawn goby to live with it!!

[Quinn]

ah thank goodness. no need to be killing anything, regardless of what they do to your fish. :biggrin:

[Beverly]

That is NOT a mantis shrimp. It looks like a crinoid snapping shrimp and is harmless. Please do not kill it.

to see real mantis shrimp, go to this site.

http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/

Thanks for the link. What we have is not a mantis. I'll carefully try to put him back where he came from. There will be no killing here today. Thank goodness!!!!!!

[Aquattro]

good to hear. It looks just like the green one I have in my tank.

[Quinn]

thank goodness, i thought i was going to have to set up a nano :cool:

[Son Of Skyline]

You guys should be hostage negotiators :lol:

[Beverly]

good to hear. It looks just like the green one I have in my tank.

Again, thanks for the ID. The little guy's safe in his acro again :biggrin:

Now that you ID'ed that shrimp, what do you know about the crab we pulled out of the 42 last night? His photos are here:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/2-5-crabphotos.htm

If he's fish/coral safe, I'd like to put him back into the 42 where he has lots more room to live. Currently, he's under the sand in our 2.5 gal, which I had previously wanted to be a peppermint shrimp tank with varieties of green star polyps, some halimeda and perhaps one teeny tiny fish.

TIA to anyone with their experiences with someone like him.

[Aquattro]

see this

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164499&highlight=crab+AND+red+AND+eye%2A

[Beverly]

see this

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164499&highlight=crab+AND+red+AND+eye%2A

Someone on RAMR says he's a bad one too. Sooooo, don't think I want to keep this guy. I'll keep him for awhile if someone wants picks him up from me. Any takers? Sounds like he might be okay in a sump, or sumpthin' like that :smile:

Cheers, all.

[Aquattro]

C'mon, somebody go give the crab a home!!

[Bob I]

C'mon, somebody go give the crab a home!!

I have a 10 gallon nano with nothing in it but Xenia, and Blue Mushrooms, so I would take it, but it would have to be brought to Calgary. I would think an Edmontonian would love to get out of there for awhile. Even if just to clear the nasal passages.

:BIG:

[Beverly]

I have a 10 gallon nano with nothing in it but Xenia, and Blue Mushrooms, so I would take it, but it would have to be brought to Calgary. I would think an Edmontonian would love to get out of there for awhile. Even if just to clear the nasal passages.

:BIG:

:crazyeye: Drive a crab to Calgary?? Now that'd make a girl downright crabby :lol:

[Aquattro]

you could meet half way :razz:

[Beverly]

you could meet half way :razz:

Think I'll call the lfs tomorrow and see if they have any triggers who'll eat it :eek:

[Aquattro]

tsk tsk....

[Beverly]

tsk tsk....

Some trigger'll be happy, anyway. It is the cycle of life, afterall.

Unless someone can pick him up. We're downtown. Easy to get to from any place in the city. And he's a freebie, what more can you ask?

We glimpsed a second hitchhiker crab last night deep deep DEEP in the rock, so if we can catch that guy, there'll be two to go.

[Aquattro]

Well, saved a shrimp today anyway.... :biggrin:

[StirCrazy]

Someone on RAMR says he's a bad one too. Sooooo, don't think I want to keep this guy.
Cheers, all.

your going to go by RAMR, thats good for a laugh

keep him untill he does something bad, I think you will be waiting a lont time for that to happen..

Steve

[Aquattro]

Steve, why do you say that? I spent a long time on RAMR and learned a lot. There are good people there and not so good people there, just like everywhere else.
In fact, that's where I met EmilyB :biggrin:

[Aquattro]

Oh, and I agree, the crab is probably not a good choice to leave in the tank. I don't think trigger food is the right choice, but......

[sumpfinfishe]

Just for future reference Beverly, if you every have to put something down that's from your tank. The most humane way to put down a fish or other creature would be to place it in a container with some tank water and place it in the freezer. I have only had to do this one, when first starting out. Most cases though, there is usually a second choice other than putting it down.

cheers, Rich

[Beverly]

keep him untill he does something bad, I think you will be waiting a lont time for that to happen..Steve

Just caught the little begger going after the star polyps I put in the tank today. So, he's outta the 2.5 and in a plastic container sitting on top of the 42. He's a baddy, that one :frown: And he's gone tomorrow, one way or the other.

[StirCrazy]

ahh sorry bit stressed, thought we were talking about the shrimp still.. kill the crab :lol:

Steve

[EmilyB]

Steve, why do you say that? I spent a long time on RAMR and learned a lot. There are good people there and not so good people there, just like everywhere else.
In fact, that's where I met EmilyB :biggrin:

Steve may be thinking about the recent years, when the trolls moved in....there was certainly some very good knowledge when the experts were still participating for sure. :neutral:

[Aquattro]

To be fair, I haven't been there recently, so maybe I'm out to lunch

[AJ_77]

kill the crab :lol:

Steve
:rofl:

[christyf5]

Just for future reference Beverly, if you every have to put something down that's from your tank. The most humane way to put down a fish or other creature would be to place it in a container with some tank water and place it in the freezer. I have only had to do this one, when first starting out. Most cases though, there is usually a second choice other than putting it down.



Where'd you get that idea? You ever frozen to death?? :rolleyes:

[StirCrazy]

aparently the lowering of the tempature acts like a anastetic and they just go to sleep...

thats what I have read anyways

Steve

[EmilyB]

Yeah, I used to think that, until I bought a live crab for food for a zebra moray. I wanted to freeze the crab, and put him in the deep freezer.

The next day he was still moving. It made me sick.

I use a boulder on anything I want to kill quickly now.........

[christyf5]

Actually the fish remains breathing even while its cells and blood are forming ice crystals (eew!). Whether it is aware of this I don't know, I can't imagine that this feels all too great. I think this is the most humane for the person doing the killing: pop it in a baggie, fling it in the freezer and walk away.

One of the best methods I've heard of is to put the fish (or whatever creature you are trying to do in) in a bowl of very cold water. They instantly have a heart attack and all organs shut down and the critter is dead.

[Aquattro]

2 alka-seltzer in a liter of water is supposed to knock them out. Then hit them with the boulder!!

[AJ_77]

2 alka-seltzer in a liter of water is supposed to knock them out. Then hit them with the boulder!!
Be sure to pop them in a baggie before smashing with the boulder.
Less mess.

[Aquattro]

good point

[Beverly]

I use a boulder on anything I want to kill quickly now.........

Kinda made me sick, but the boulder method in a baggie it is was :cry: :cry: :cry:

Poor little guy didn't even see it coming. Fast for the crab, but definitely not easy on the human :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Just hope the CSI team doesn't get wind of the corpse in our trash can :eek:

[Quinn]

darnit! no! no more crab killing! :evil: although i understand that there were no alternatives... still a bummer to have to do that though. looks like i'm going to end up with a tank stocked with everyone elses rejects when i actually get set up.

[Beverly]

darnit! no! no more crab killing! although i understand that there were no alternatives... still a bummer to have to do that though.

Well, you didn't even have to do it, I did :cry: Not the most pleasant task to do before breakfast, either, but it was the most humane way of doing it.

looks like i'm going to end up with a tank stocked with everyone elses rejects when i actually get set up.

teevee, you wouldn't have wanted that crab in your reef if you saw the way it was munching on the star polyp frags I'd just put in that nano. Good thing I checked the tank before going to bed, cuz I'm sure that frag and other one would have both been decimated by morning :evil:

Dang, now I've got a headache over all this :sad:

Everybody take care.

[AJ_77]

I've got to say, it's bold of you to detail this whole process, one that many (all?) of us have been through but few talk about openly, or admit to. Part of managing the care of the animals we end up with can be unpleasant yet necessary - sometimes 'pests' must meet their end at our hands.

Thanks for being open and honest, even when the end result would prove unpopular with the very sensitive. And thanks to respondents for lack of flames.

Cheers,

[Quinn]

obviously it's a shame that a critter that made it several thousand miles, was banged around in a dark box, thrown into water that probably wasn't what he was used to, and all this multiple times, only to be smashed with a rock, but that's life isn't kinda. kinda ironic in a sense, we pay money for some creatures and try to kill others. :confused: i'm sure i'll run into this dilemma soon enough.

[Delphinus]

I would have probably first tried to see if an LFS would take it, but, that's just me.

[Diomedes]

Congratulations Bev, that is a beautiful Alpheid shrimp...I wish it was mine :cry: As far as the crab goes, it is a Mithrax spp. (I didn't read all the posts as I don't have much time, so if this info is redundant then sorry..) and it is definately going to have a negative impact on your reef at some point...most crabs do.

Stephen

[Beverly]

Thanks for being open and honest, even when the end result would prove unpopular with the very sensitive. And thanks to respondents for lack of flames.

In my honesty, I admit I was looking to others for help finding solutions to our reef problems. The shrimp was saved, thank goodness, but the crab had a very different fate :cry:

There's a deep sadness in me today over this event :cry: In some sort of honour to the crab, I did my weekly maintenance on all three of our reefs, the 42 gal hex, and the 7 gal and 2.5 gal nanos. Cleaning the tanks and filtration systems, and changing water was done with great reverence to the dead crab, and to the creatures I cherish so much who are all still alive and well.

Thank you to everyone who helped ID the hitchhikers we found. Thanks, too, to the folks who offered suggestions as to what to do with the unwanted crab.

FWIW, I had a chance to make it over to the lfs after my appointments this afternoon and spoke to the staff about what they'd have done with the crab if they had taken it. Yes, they would have fed it to "Bubba" the Picasso trigger. So which fate would any of you have chosen for the crab? The rock or the trigger? Right now neither choice sits very well with me, but something had to be done. So I did it. :cry: :cry: :cry:

Thank you all again.

[Quinn]

if bubba is the trigger at AI, i would have chosen to feed the crab to the trigger. that guy needs a snack, he nearly took my finger off last time i was there. :biggrin:

[Beverly]

if bubba is the trigger at AI,

Yup, that's the trigger.

that guy needs a snack, he nearly took my finger off last time i was there.

What the heck are you doing with your fingers in a trigger tank :eek:

If we're able to catch the second crab we saw in the 42 last night, if time permits, I'll take it to AI. One way or the other, that crab'll be a goner too :frown:

[Quinn]

umm petting the fish... yeah pretty stupid i know. if i had a FOWLR tank a picasso would be the first thing i'd put in there. i absolutely love them.

you don't have any sumps eh? if you did i'd tell you to stick the crab in there.

i think someone was wondering about how humane freezing an animal to death is. i will confirm that it is. as your body gets colder, you simply fall asleep. this is why when they find someone who's frozen to death, the person is generally lying in the fetal position. curled up, yes, but not from the cold as much as the fact that it's just how people often sleep. of course there's no way to prove this also applies to crabs, but let's assume it does. apparently one of the easiest ways to go.

[Beverly]

umm petting the fish... yeah pretty stupid i know.

Yeah, about as stupid as me trying to kiss my cute little python. They carry salmonella, so no lips to my snake, that's for sure, even though I adore him :cool:

you don't have any sumps eh? if you did i'd tell you to stick the crab in there.

Nope. No sumps on the 2.5 or the 7 gal nanos :lol:

Not even one on the 42 hex. Kinda not techmologically evolved enough to have a sump on it. Didn't have a sump on our 180 when we had it either.

[christyf5]

Actually, before you freeze to death your brain releases endorphins to help deal with the pain and you reach a state of euphoria. Apparently its a great way to go. I don't think it works that way for fish tho. Their brain isn't complex enough.

Christy :)

[Quinn]

ah shoot first year psyc versus bio grad. i can't touch it :cool: my prof said it was an easy way to go, but he could very well be wrong. how about we agree not to kill critters at all. if it really comes down to it, then trigger food. :neutral:

[christyf5]

well yes, it is an easy way to go. But there are many differences between a human and a fish.

[Quinn]

oop right misread your post there. thought you said "apparently it's not a great way to go". good enough then! you present a valid argument. i guess the other question though is, if they aren't developed enough to have the mechanisms necessary to release endorphins, how do we know they are complex enough to feel pain? :razz:

[EmilyB]

how do we know they are complex enough to feel pain? :razz:

Personally, with the animals in my care, I offer them something vicariously.... :neutral:

Optimum care, to the best of my ability.

[Diomedes]

These are cold blooded creatures we are talking about...They don't even feel the effects of temperature the same way we do. It is humane to put them down in the freezer because their metabolisms just slow down and stop. They don't get cold...

Stephen

[Beverly]

These are cold blooded creatures we are talking about...They don't even feel the effects of temperature the same way we do.

Hmm.... They probably don't feel temps the exact way we do, but they must feel temps in some manner. If they didn't, the same species of crab/fish/coral/whatever would be found in a variety of different temp zones in the oceans and seas, which is not the case.

You're right that they have blood, and it's red, too. I found that out with the rock and a hard place killing method with that crab the other day :eek: :eek: :cry:

I suppose it's easier emotionally for some folks to put a creature in the freezer then take them out dead in a day or two, even though no one really knows how the freezing process actually affects the creature during the process. I, for one, would nevr do it that way. Seems like it would prolong death, especially compared to a single good whack that'll kill instantly. Geez, now I sound like a hitman, which, is not even near how I feel about killing animals :frown:

Tried to catch the second crab in our reef last night, but was unsuccessful. Then I had bad dreams all night about different methods of killing the poor guy and the thing just would not stop moving no matter what was done to it :cry: :cry: :cry:

What a gruesome f**cking topic :cry: :exclaim: :exclaim:

[StirCrazy]

Beverly

Think of a snake, it gets cold it slows down and goes to sleep, when the morning comes it layes on the warm rocks or soil to adsorb heat so it can move quickly again.. the snake isn't in pain every time night comes is it? this would be the same for a fish.. as the temp drops it gets slugish and falls asleep well befor the point it is frozen.

Steve

[Beverly]

Think of a snake, it gets cold it slows down and goes to sleep, when the morning comes it layes on the warm rocks or soil to adsorb heat so it can move quickly again.. the snake isn't in pain every time night comes is it? this would be the same for a fish.. as the temp drops it gets slugish and falls asleep well befor the point it is frozen.

To quote Christy: "Actually the fish remains breathing even while its cells and blood are forming ice crystals"

That is what I believe happens with the freezer method, though I have no scientific proof to back it up. Oxygen depletion in the water as it freezes may also make the crab suffer, though, again no scientific proof on that either. And because I also believe a creature as primitive as a crab still has some sort of way to feel pain, the crab would suffer.

As for snakes, I happen to own one and know a little bit about them, and they're very different from tropical ocean-dwelling crabs :rolleyes:

Yes, snakes get cold at night and warm themselves during the day with no harm done. But they seek places where they will keep the warmest at night, even though at night their bodies do cool, sometimes considerably cooler than during the day.

But you're rarely going to find a snake that lives in a place that freezes, except a few species in the Alberta badlands and those that live in the BC interior and other such northern places that experience freezing winter temps. They most likely seek deep hiding places where they can hibernate without freezing. Either that, or they can actually freeze with no harm done, though I somehow doubt the latter. These particular snakes would be the exception to the rule as most snakes live is pretty warm climates where winter or nighttime temps do not freeze.

Then there are certain species of frogs that dig themselves into the mud and freeze during the winter, then come back to life in the spring thaw to look for mates before the insect populations return. Actually saw this on HGTV's "Secret World of Gardens" the other day.

To sum up, I don't think comparing snakes, frogs or whatever, to tropical crabs is a way to gain points in the discussion of using the freezer killing method. Each creature is different in habitat, and how it lives and dies in that habitat.

I'd still never freeze a tropical animal to kill it. Never, never, never. Even though the rock method makes the death up close and personal, and is sickening to do for the human (me, to be precise), that is the only way I will ever kill any mobile critter from our reefs.

[Bob I]

I will bet you did not know that houseflies freeze solid during the winter, and happily come back to life when it warms up. A couple of years ago I picked up some flies that looked frozen, and put them in a jar. When I brought the jar indoors, the flies came back to life. :eek: :eek:

[Beverly]

I will bet you did not know that houseflies freeze solid during the winter, and happily come back to life when it warms up :eek:

Nope, didn't know that one.

Did you know that there are vents deep in the ocean that spew the hottest, foulest stuff from beneath the earth's crust that have bacteria feeding off the very hot, very foul stuff? I wonder how scientists get samples of these bacteria when the area is so hot :eek: Heck, I wonder about how scientists find out about all kinds of strange things :question: :question: :question:

[Quinn]

These are cold blooded creatures we are talking about...They don't even feel the effects of temperature the same way we do. It is humane to put them down in the freezer because their metabolisms just slow down and stop. They don't get cold...

Stephen

actually now that i think about it that sounds right, because i have to monitor my turtle's hot rock temperature because if it malfunctions and gets too hot, she won't be able to tell and will sit on it while it burns her.

[Quinn]

A couple of years ago I picked up some flies that looked frozen, and put them in a jar. When I brought the jar indoors, the flies came back to life. :eek: :eek:

bob just how much time do you have on your hands? :razz:

[Beverly]

A couple of years ago I picked up some flies that looked frozen, and put them in a jar. When I brought the jar indoors, the flies came back to life. :eek: :eek:

bob just how much time do you have on your hands? :razz:

ROTFLMAO :exclaim: :exclaim:

Actually, that was the kid in me laughing at your little kid in you razzing the little kid in Bob with his flies :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bob I]

Actually, that was the kid in me laughing at your little kid in you razzing the little kid in Bob with his flies :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually I had a lot of time on my hands. This was when we were building the Caroline Gas plant. I was in charge of the yard where we stored our electrical supplies. There was a big tent where the lights were stored. That is where I found the flies, and my investigative curiosity was aroused. :razz: :razz:

[Beverly]

actually now that i think about it that sounds right, because i have to monitor my turtle's hot rock temperature because if it malfunctions and gets too hot, she won't be able to tell and will sit on it while it burns her.

I don't know if she wouldn't be able to tell. I think it's more like the hot rock is the only known warm spot in her house, so she stays there even if it gets too warm.

They sell those hot rock things for snakes too. But the book I have about ball pythons, which is the kind of snake we have, says to stay away from hot rocks completely. Better to use a heat lamp with a built in temp control sliding thingamajig, or an under tank heating sheet. With the heat lamp, in a large enough living area, the snake or whatever, can choose the place it wants to be whether it's right under the lamp or just off to the side where it's slightly cooler, or not under it at all.

We have both lamp and under tank heaters for our snake. He prefers the heat lamp and often curls up in the shade of a fake plant to be slightly cooler, and probably to be hidden like snakes like to do.

[Quinn]

Congratulations Bev, that is a beautiful Alpheid shrimp...I wish it was mine :cry: As far as the crab goes, it is a Mithrax spp. (I didn't read all the posts as I don't have much time, so if this info is redundant then sorry..) and it is definately going to have a negative impact on your reef at some point...most crabs do.

Stephen

provided it was actually a mithrax, i would have put him into one of the other tanks and waited to see if he ate anything in there. people buy these guys to take care of bubble algae....

[Beverly]

provided it was actually a mithrax, i would have put him into one of the other tanks and waited to see if he ate anything in there. people buy these guys to take care of bubble algae....

Yup, put him in the 2.5 gal to see what he'd do in there. That night just before going to bed, thought I'd check the 2.5 to see what the crab was up to. There he was dining on our star polyps :evil: He went directly into an old, clean yogurt container in some tank water.

For the next few days, I woudn't have had the opportunity to take him to the AI unless I took him with me on my appointments all out in the west end :eek: Heck I coulda tried the freezer method on him with the cold spell we had that week by just leaving him in the car while I went on my appointed rounds :eek: :eek: Instead, I whacked him to get his and my misery over with asap :cry: